This world needs more sandbox mmo's with full loot combat. Tired of the usual WoW clone themepark garbage.
I'm really glad EVE Online has completely solidified itself. I really hope we see something of EVE's equivalent in a medieval high fantasy setting soon. I'm starved while themepark lovers get game after game.
The only game I can think of that truely defines sandbox, is minecraft. But is a game like that truly a role playing game. No it isn't. A role playing game has a story, whether it be WoW, TSW, UO,AO,Vanguard, EvE, EQ, FFXI, ect, they all have a story, on one type you have a more guided tour through the story, like the EQ types. Or to a much lesser degree UO type, but nevertheless, both styles are what define the rpg genre set in mmo environment.
Some people enjoy the guided tour some people don't.
Ok, so you seriously need to check out wurm online sir. THAT is defining sandbox
Ok, so you seriously need to check out wurm online sir. THAT is defining sandbox
After looking for the ultimate sandbox, I got to Wurm and it really is a true sandbox, however being a true sandbox is it greatest advantage and its greatest weakness as well. I found a great community of players and they helped me to stablish but playing wurm is actually as real life would be and since real life is filled with repetitive and routinary days, Wurm online could trap you on routine. This game is pretty sandbox but definitely you must look for doing things different every day or you will get bored soon.
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
This. A pure sandbox MMO is like an unfinished game. Its okay to add in sandbox ELEMENTS to extend game play but you want a defined narrative of player advancement if you want a succcesfull game. FWIW EQ was not a sandbox at all.. It was a themepark with some sandbox elements (you could for example make friends with the bad guys)..
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
So, please, help me understand sandbox MMOs.
Thank you.
EQ1 was a SANDBOX, and NOT a Themepark buddy. Just wanted you to realize that. You already know the draw of one of the earliest Sandboxes there ever was, aside from Ultima Online of course.
It is pretty obvious with the current "lifespan" (for players) of themeparks that have come out recently, that players really want a change for longevity and a "world to live in" and we all know, the only real way to deliver that is sandbox.
WE wan't "EVE - DF - UO - AC"-baby on steroids on the ground with a relatable character avatar, fps/tps player skill based combat, freedom of building, player driven economy with a multitude of professions from trader, crafter, gatherer (aquisitioner) to full blown military combat spec, (sci-fi, fantasy, modern day), doesn't really even matter what genre.
FULL BLOWN SANDBOX with some scripted events, quests, stories to boost the experience and immersion is the way of the future, you can mark my words on that and quote me in the future.
^This.
Strange that not one big MMO developer jumped on this after watching games like EVE thrive.
Nothing more easy then create a online world with sandbox content and say to the players: "here you go, have fun, go at it" instead of pushing out a expansion to move the finish line a bit further.
With themeparks they are constantly defending themselves against the grinders that complain that there is "nothing to do in endgame." and try to make new content before those players quit out of boredom.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
So, please, help me understand sandbox MMOs.
Thank you.
EQ1 was a SANDBOX, and NOT a Themepark buddy. Just wanted you to realize that. You already know the draw of one of the earliest Sandboxes there ever was, aside from Ultima Online of course.
No it wasn't, it was the father to themepark games.
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
So, please, help me understand sandbox MMOs.
Thank you.
EQ1 was a SANDBOX, and NOT a Themepark buddy. Just wanted you to realize that. You already know the draw of one of the earliest Sandboxes there ever was, aside from Ultima Online of course.
No it wasn't, it was the father to themepark games.
LOL, no, it was most certainly NOT.
EQ1 was a sandbox because:
-You were not told where to go.
-Your hand was not held in any specific direction, you got to choose when and how you progressed.
-Crafting was, for its day, fairly complex and hard. Most recipes you had to learn yourself and keep track of with pen & paper.
-The only "quests" in EQ1 were long journeys that most people had no idea how to do because of how vague and limited in information they were. This was on purpose so you had to figure things out for yourself. Except for a very very few (like 2 or 3 quests) gave experience. The rest were for very rare and hard to obtain gear that could not be obtained in any other way, shape, or form. (Hero bracer, Stein of Maggok, etc)
A themepark game, however, gets its name from having "Rides" or "Static Content" that is created in a specific location for someone to ride, expend, and then move on in a linear fashion to the next "Ride". Hence, why they're called Themeparks. Everquest 1 NEVER HAD A SINGLE "Ride" in its existence until Lost Dungeons of Norrath came out, and beyond.
EQ1, specifically when you mention EQ1 you're essentially talking about Classic until Luclin, was the Brother to Ultima Online for Sandbox games, and both were the Fathers of them.
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
So, please, help me understand sandbox MMOs.
Thank you.
EQ1 was a SANDBOX, and NOT a Themepark buddy. Just wanted you to realize that. You already know the draw of one of the earliest Sandboxes there ever was, aside from Ultima Online of course.
No it wasn't, it was the father to themepark games.
LOL, no, it was most certainly NOT.
EQ1 was a sandbox because:
-You were not told where to go.
-Your hand was not held in any specific direction, you got to choose when and how you progressed.
-Crafting was, for its day, fairly complex and hard. Most recipes you had to learn yourself and keep track of with pen & paper.
-The only "quests" in EQ1 were long journeys that most people had no idea how to do because of how vague and limited in information they were. This was on purpose so you had to figure things out for yourself. Except for a very very few (like 2 or 3 quests) gave experience. The rest were for very rare and hard to obtain gear that could not be obtained in any other way, shape, or form. (Hero bracer, Stein of Maggok, etc)
A themepark game, however, gets its name from having "Rides" or "Static Content" that is created in a specific location for someone to ride, expend, and then move on in a linear fashion to the next "Ride". Hence, why they're called Themeparks. Everquest 1 NEVER HAD A SINGLE "Ride" in its existence until Lost Dungeons of Norrath came out, and beyond.
EQ1, specifically when you mention EQ1 you're essentially talking about Classic until Luclin, was the Brother to Ultima Online for Sandbox games, and both were the Fathers of them.
All you described was a poor designed themepark. WoW repaired a few things that EQ didn't do well and became the major player in the genre.
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it.
EVE is a niche game, even for sandboxes, you either like it or you hate it.
I like the fact that I can quit the game, come back after 1-2 years and still be relevant as on the day I left, no catching up to do in content, my actions actually have a (lasting) impact on the gameworld and the virtual world scene actually changes.
This kinda describes it:
and
no railed themepark can ever beat that imo.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
It is pretty obvious with the current "lifespan" (for players) of themeparks that have come out recently, that players really want a change for longevity and a "world to live in" and we all know, the only real way to deliver that is sandbox.
WE wan't "EVE - DF - UO - AC"-baby on steroids on the ground with a relatable character avatar, fps/tps player skill based combat, freedom of building, player driven economy with a multitude of professions from trader, crafter, gatherer (aquisitioner) to full blown military combat spec, (sci-fi, fantasy, modern day), doesn't really even matter what genre.
FULL BLOWN SANDBOX with some scripted events, quests, stories to boost the experience and immersion is the way of the future, you can mark my words on that and quote me in the future.
^This.
Strange that not one big MMO developer jumped on this after watching games like EVE thrive.
Nothing more easy then create a online world with sandbox content and say to the players: "here you go, have fun, go at it" instead of pushing out a expansion to move the finish line a bit further.
With themeparks they are constantly defending themselves against the grinders that complain that there is "nothing to do in endgame." and try to make new content before those players quit out of boredom.
"Thrive"? The reason EvE even got to the 500k subscription mark is to have more than 1 toon skilling up, as that required more than 1 account. Multiboxing is extreme in that game, just ask Mitty and his crew about the gatecamp multiboxers.
Other games you can level up toons at will without that type of roadblock (or paying for each alt as a separate fee per month to level, as it is now). Yep, 1 main and 2 alts, your monthly bill will be around $45/mon (unless Mitty foots your bill, and for that I rather keep some dignity left...lol).
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
So, please, help me understand sandbox MMOs.
Thank you.
a themepark player pays for entertainment
a sandbox player pays for challenge
no offense, but thats my opinion..im a themepark player too
Themeparks are more challenging then sandboxes because you have set goals. That's the simple truth. Trying to ride all the rides in Disney World in one day is more challenging then sitting in some dirty sandbox for an hour.
Themeparks use some slight of hand to make the rides seem more fun then they are. Eventually people complain the rides are boring (hey I have done spacemountain 100x - it sucks). But at least the first time you went on it was fun. Sandboxes tell you to make your own fun - but most people just throw sand in a kids face and leave the box. So no a good themepark MMO will have both more challenge and more fun - at least for a short while.
People just suck at creating their own content. If you could create your own content you could just stay home and 'imagine' your MMO adventure and have the best game ever.
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it.
EVE is a niche game, even for sandboxes, you either like it or you hate it.
I like the fact that I can quit the game, come back after 1-2 years and still be relevant as on the day I left, no catching up to do in content, my actions actually have a (lasting) impact on the gameworld and the virtual world scene actually changes.
This kinda describes it:
and
no railed themepark can ever beat that imo.
My name in EVE is Infinity Ziona, I have played EVE since 2003, so 10 years. I have no understand oh how EVE qualifies as a sandbox game. It doesn't at all imo.
In EVE there things you can do. You can create a corporation but that corporation is only capable of doing what all the other corporations can do, as dictated by the mechanics of the game.
If you want to be a war deccing corporation you need to following the themepark the devs have implemented in regards to wars. There is no bending of the rules. They're set in stone and if you go outside those rules you are nerfed.
In 2006 I created the Privateers. It was a new type of corporation. Up until that point corporations would declare war against one or two other corporations, or if they had balls, an alliance. Privateers changed that so that we eventually declared war against most of the alliances in the game. Our policy was the opposite of other corporations, anyway could join, giving them complete access to all Privateers war targets. Its was the equivalent of a FFA in all space, safe, low, null, everywhere and everyone was attackable and something which hadn't happened on that scale before. Sandbox right? Except CCP nerfed it, wiped it completely out of the game because it didn't comply with their idea of war decs (or in other words their war theme park ride).
In Sov space now we have systems that can be claimed by alliances. They can deploy player owned stations, and other plaer owned assetts. As a person who likes to solo and use guerilla tactics I want to get out and do hit and run against allliances of thousands of players solo. Sneak past their defenses and blow up a structure and then run away or get caught and killed. At one point I took a 2 billion isk high end ship, got through all the chokepoints, avoided getting ganked by the defenders. I got into one of the main systems and tried to blow up a 100mill isk planetary structure (5% of the value of my ship) but I can't, because these player owned structures are defended by the server with 10 million HP, ,if I sat there for 10 hours I could blow it up, but at 25% shields it becomes invulnerable for 24 hours, sends a message to the alliance (in this case a 37,000 man coalition) and then I have to turn up 24 hours later to kill the remaining 25% and get destroyed by those 37k people who will be waiting for me. That's not sandbox. Theres only one way to destroy their assets, timers and turning up to be destroyed. Its purely a sandbox mechanic with no other way to do damage.
So yeah the propaganda is its a sandbox but its actually less sandboxy than WoW raids since you can complete WoW raids in many different ways, some people can solo them, some can do zerg, others use high level skills (player based skills).
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
So, please, help me understand sandbox MMOs.
Thank you.
EQ1 was a SANDBOX, and NOT a Themepark buddy. Just wanted you to realize that. You already know the draw of one of the earliest Sandboxes there ever was, aside from Ultima Online of course.
No it wasn't, it was the father to themepark games.
LOL, no, it was most certainly NOT.
EQ1 was a sandbox because:
-You were not told where to go.
-Your hand was not held in any specific direction, you got to choose when and how you progressed.
-Crafting was, for its day, fairly complex and hard. Most recipes you had to learn yourself and keep track of with pen & paper.
-The only "quests" in EQ1 were long journeys that most people had no idea how to do because of how vague and limited in information they were. This was on purpose so you had to figure things out for yourself. Except for a very very few (like 2 or 3 quests) gave experience. The rest were for very rare and hard to obtain gear that could not be obtained in any other way, shape, or form. (Hero bracer, Stein of Maggok, etc)
A themepark game, however, gets its name from having "Rides" or "Static Content" that is created in a specific location for someone to ride, expend, and then move on in a linear fashion to the next "Ride". Hence, why they're called Themeparks. Everquest 1 NEVER HAD A SINGLE "Ride" in its existence until Lost Dungeons of Norrath came out, and beyond.
EQ1, specifically when you mention EQ1 you're essentially talking about Classic until Luclin, was the Brother to Ultima Online for Sandbox games, and both were the Fathers of them.
All you described was a poor designed themepark. WoW repaired a few things that EQ didn't do well and became the major player in the genre.
God no. EQ 1 was not themepark at all.
A themepark is on rails, you start something and you finish it and that's it its over.
In EQ you could be running through South Ro and run into 'an ancient cyclops', loot a ring which you had no idea what to do with. Unbenownst to everyone even years after was how to make that guy spawn, it was a mystery which spawned a ton of theories. There was no arrow pointing you to his spawn point, no advice of what you must do with the ring.
A themepark is pretty straight forward in comparison, an NPC in WoW says "collect 100 beetle wings and I'll give you this [item]". You collect the wings which are conveniently located nearby and return and ding, get a level, get an item. You can't go back and do that thing again.
With the cyclops you could, but the actual hidden parts was killing a bunch of shadow men, looting specific shadow items which despawned if you logged, then finding a very rare npc many zones away, giving him a bunch of hard earned gold and finally getting the item. You could do that repeatedly and sell the items or trade some of your stuff with someone else for joint hand ins so they could get it.
Then there was factional issues, if you did certain things in game you could become friendly with certain npcs that would wipe the floor with other people who hadn't helped them. That could open up new quests, opportunities and close others and the way back was extremely difficult.
There were epic items that could take years to complete, mine took hundreds of hours, over year. There were artifacts that were unique, if someone got one that was it, nobody else could ever get it.
There was also Kyrafyrm, a one time spawn that would drop primal velium weapons, the best weapons in the game initially, once one guild had awoken him he never returned. What theme park has a ride that only one group can ever ride and then is not available to anyone else.
EQ was one of the greatest, if not greatest mmo, harsh, open, sandboxy. There were themepark rides but they were not on demand like WoW. If you missed one because someone else got there first, you had days, weeks, months or forever to wait for the next one.
Sand box and themepark begin to cross over when sand parks become complete systems and better virtual realities.
Vice a versa, when themeparks allow for more interaction and freedom with more intuitive systems that better simulate the themepark they become more of a sand box.
I would say of course there are clear barriers to what defines either... but I thought it would be interesting to look at this a bit differently as well.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Sandbox = World. Build block tools handed to players as ifs and maybes and told to go have fun.
Themepark = Developer created content to be consumed.
If your main source of enjoyment in a game is what you created, what you built, what you manipulated and community interactions then congratulations, you're in a sandbox. Star Wars Galaxies was a good example of this.
If your main source of enjoyment in a game is what you found, what you did, where you went, what you achieved then congratulations, you're in a theme park. The original EQ is a good example of this.
Apparently some people seem to think that "finding" something that the developers put there for the sole purpose of being found is somehow a sandbox element. It's not. However, if what you found is something another player put there, that is a sandbox trait.
I don't know about you, but when I went to Disney World, I was given a huge map and told to go have fun. I did not have to visit rides in any particular order. I didn't even have to look at the map. Being able to just head off in a direction does not a sandbox make. Sorry to disappoint. Especially if you want to be "rewarded" by the developers for exploring. Reminding me of a kid hoping for a gold sticker for finding the Easter eggs. If you're intent was a sandbox, that's just counter productive.
A sandbox with no structure, no reason to do anything save for what might happen if you spent enough time and creativity on it is no fun for me personally. A theme park that decides it would rather stick me on the train and not let me off from the moment I say 'go' does not appeal.
I would prefer a large theme park. A coherent structure with freedom to move within. Give me factions, but if you have politics then let the players participate. Give me quest lines, but if you have tasks let it be based on the state of the world and not a quota, x amount of xp needed to get from one level to another. Give me raids, but if you have big bads to defeat make the world react to their presence and their toppling. Give me some building blocks so I can be invested. Monitor and remove the disruptive elements. Let me make a character I want to spend time on.
When it comes to sandbox vs theme park mmos i prefer Themepark because i am new to the mmorpg genre.So if a sandbox mmorpg gives me too much freedom i will not know what to do and where to start so i prefer a little bit of hand holding provided by theme park mmos.I agree hardcore mmo players would much rather prefer Sandbox but statistics state that theme park mmos are more popular than sandbox so it seems most mmo players prefer theme park style mmos.
Comments
This world needs more sandbox mmo's with full loot combat. Tired of the usual WoW clone themepark garbage.
I'm really glad EVE Online has completely solidified itself. I really hope we see something of EVE's equivalent in a medieval high fantasy setting soon. I'm starved while themepark lovers get game after game.
Ok, so you seriously need to check out wurm online sir. THAT is defining sandbox
Free to live, Free to play!
Free to live, Free to play!
After looking for the ultimate sandbox, I got to Wurm and it really is a true sandbox, however being a true sandbox is it greatest advantage and its greatest weakness as well. I found a great community of players and they helped me to stablish but playing wurm is actually as real life would be and since real life is filled with repetitive and routinary days, Wurm online could trap you on routine. This game is pretty sandbox but definitely you must look for doing things different every day or you will get bored soon.
Help me understand the draw for sandbox MMOs please.
Themepark MMOs I have enjoyed: WoW, EQ1, EQ2, Aion, Wildstar, etc..
Sandbox MMOs? I dont even know.. I didnt play ultima online or DAoC, and shadowbane was a failure, and I simply could not get into EVE at all. I absolutely hated minecraft and terraria, I didnt see a point to ever playing it. So what is the EQ and WoW of sandbox MMOs?
I do not understand the draw, you log into a sandbox MMO, and have no direction at all, so why go this way instead of that? In fact why go any way since where you are right now is just as good. Why login?
I thoroughly enjoy gaining levels, finding new equipment, and unlocking new abilities and seeing my character grow in strength and be able to complete challenges that I was not able to before. This is the heart and soul of RPGs to me and it is non-negotiable, which is one reason why its looking like EQN will not be for me.
So, please, help me understand sandbox MMOs.
Thank you.
This. A pure sandbox MMO is like an unfinished game. Its okay to add in sandbox ELEMENTS to extend game play but you want a defined narrative of player advancement if you want a succcesfull game. FWIW EQ was not a sandbox at all.. It was a themepark with some sandbox elements (you could for example make friends with the bad guys)..
EQ1 was a SANDBOX, and NOT a Themepark buddy. Just wanted you to realize that. You already know the draw of one of the earliest Sandboxes there ever was, aside from Ultima Online of course.
^This.
Strange that not one big MMO developer jumped on this after watching games like EVE thrive.
Nothing more easy then create a online world with sandbox content and say to the players: "here you go, have fun, go at it" instead of pushing out a expansion to move the finish line a bit further.
With themeparks they are constantly defending themselves against the grinders that complain that there is "nothing to do in endgame." and try to make new content before those players quit out of boredom.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
No it wasn't, it was the father to themepark games.
LOL, no, it was most certainly NOT.
EQ1 was a sandbox because:
-You were not told where to go.
-Your hand was not held in any specific direction, you got to choose when and how you progressed.
-Crafting was, for its day, fairly complex and hard. Most recipes you had to learn yourself and keep track of with pen & paper.
-The only "quests" in EQ1 were long journeys that most people had no idea how to do because of how vague and limited in information they were. This was on purpose so you had to figure things out for yourself. Except for a very very few (like 2 or 3 quests) gave experience. The rest were for very rare and hard to obtain gear that could not be obtained in any other way, shape, or form. (Hero bracer, Stein of Maggok, etc)
A themepark game, however, gets its name from having "Rides" or "Static Content" that is created in a specific location for someone to ride, expend, and then move on in a linear fashion to the next "Ride". Hence, why they're called Themeparks. Everquest 1 NEVER HAD A SINGLE "Ride" in its existence until Lost Dungeons of Norrath came out, and beyond.
EQ1, specifically when you mention EQ1 you're essentially talking about Classic until Luclin, was the Brother to Ultima Online for Sandbox games, and both were the Fathers of them.
All you described was a poor designed themepark. WoW repaired a few things that EQ didn't do well and became the major player in the genre.
EVE is a niche game, even for sandboxes, you either like it or you hate it.
I like the fact that I can quit the game, come back after 1-2 years and still be relevant as on the day I left, no catching up to do in content, my actions actually have a (lasting) impact on the gameworld and the virtual world scene actually changes.
This kinda describes it:
and
no railed themepark can ever beat that imo.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
"Thrive"? The reason EvE even got to the 500k subscription mark is to have more than 1 toon skilling up, as that required more than 1 account. Multiboxing is extreme in that game, just ask Mitty and his crew about the gatecamp multiboxers.
Other games you can level up toons at will without that type of roadblock (or paying for each alt as a separate fee per month to level, as it is now). Yep, 1 main and 2 alts, your monthly bill will be around $45/mon (unless Mitty foots your bill, and for that I rather keep some dignity left...lol).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
a themepark player pays for entertainment
a sandbox player pays for challenge
no offense, but thats my opinion..im a themepark player too
Themeparks are more challenging then sandboxes because you have set goals. That's the simple truth. Trying to ride all the rides in Disney World in one day is more challenging then sitting in some dirty sandbox for an hour.
Themeparks use some slight of hand to make the rides seem more fun then they are. Eventually people complain the rides are boring (hey I have done spacemountain 100x - it sucks). But at least the first time you went on it was fun. Sandboxes tell you to make your own fun - but most people just throw sand in a kids face and leave the box. So no a good themepark MMO will have both more challenge and more fun - at least for a short while.
People just suck at creating their own content. If you could create your own content you could just stay home and 'imagine' your MMO adventure and have the best game ever.
Sandbox = What a mmorpg member calls his favorite theme park game
Theme Park = What a mmorpg member calls a sandbox game when they don't like it
Beta = What a mmorpg member calls his favorite game when it's horrible and there is no other excuse
You're all welcome.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My name in EVE is Infinity Ziona, I have played EVE since 2003, so 10 years. I have no understand oh how EVE qualifies as a sandbox game. It doesn't at all imo.
In EVE there things you can do. You can create a corporation but that corporation is only capable of doing what all the other corporations can do, as dictated by the mechanics of the game.
If you want to be a war deccing corporation you need to following the themepark the devs have implemented in regards to wars. There is no bending of the rules. They're set in stone and if you go outside those rules you are nerfed.
In 2006 I created the Privateers. It was a new type of corporation. Up until that point corporations would declare war against one or two other corporations, or if they had balls, an alliance. Privateers changed that so that we eventually declared war against most of the alliances in the game. Our policy was the opposite of other corporations, anyway could join, giving them complete access to all Privateers war targets. Its was the equivalent of a FFA in all space, safe, low, null, everywhere and everyone was attackable and something which hadn't happened on that scale before. Sandbox right? Except CCP nerfed it, wiped it completely out of the game because it didn't comply with their idea of war decs (or in other words their war theme park ride).
In Sov space now we have systems that can be claimed by alliances. They can deploy player owned stations, and other plaer owned assetts. As a person who likes to solo and use guerilla tactics I want to get out and do hit and run against allliances of thousands of players solo. Sneak past their defenses and blow up a structure and then run away or get caught and killed. At one point I took a 2 billion isk high end ship, got through all the chokepoints, avoided getting ganked by the defenders. I got into one of the main systems and tried to blow up a 100mill isk planetary structure (5% of the value of my ship) but I can't, because these player owned structures are defended by the server with 10 million HP, ,if I sat there for 10 hours I could blow it up, but at 25% shields it becomes invulnerable for 24 hours, sends a message to the alliance (in this case a 37,000 man coalition) and then I have to turn up 24 hours later to kill the remaining 25% and get destroyed by those 37k people who will be waiting for me. That's not sandbox. Theres only one way to destroy their assets, timers and turning up to be destroyed. Its purely a sandbox mechanic with no other way to do damage.
So yeah the propaganda is its a sandbox but its actually less sandboxy than WoW raids since you can complete WoW raids in many different ways, some people can solo them, some can do zerg, others use high level skills (player based skills).
/end Rant
God no. EQ 1 was not themepark at all.
A themepark is on rails, you start something and you finish it and that's it its over.
In EQ you could be running through South Ro and run into 'an ancient cyclops', loot a ring which you had no idea what to do with. Unbenownst to everyone even years after was how to make that guy spawn, it was a mystery which spawned a ton of theories. There was no arrow pointing you to his spawn point, no advice of what you must do with the ring.
A themepark is pretty straight forward in comparison, an NPC in WoW says "collect 100 beetle wings and I'll give you this [item]". You collect the wings which are conveniently located nearby and return and ding, get a level, get an item. You can't go back and do that thing again.
With the cyclops you could, but the actual hidden parts was killing a bunch of shadow men, looting specific shadow items which despawned if you logged, then finding a very rare npc many zones away, giving him a bunch of hard earned gold and finally getting the item. You could do that repeatedly and sell the items or trade some of your stuff with someone else for joint hand ins so they could get it.
Then there was factional issues, if you did certain things in game you could become friendly with certain npcs that would wipe the floor with other people who hadn't helped them. That could open up new quests, opportunities and close others and the way back was extremely difficult.
There were epic items that could take years to complete, mine took hundreds of hours, over year. There were artifacts that were unique, if someone got one that was it, nobody else could ever get it.
There was also Kyrafyrm, a one time spawn that would drop primal velium weapons, the best weapons in the game initially, once one guild had awoken him he never returned. What theme park has a ride that only one group can ever ride and then is not available to anyone else.
EQ was one of the greatest, if not greatest mmo, harsh, open, sandboxy. There were themepark rides but they were not on demand like WoW. If you missed one because someone else got there first, you had days, weeks, months or forever to wait for the next one.
I vote for themepark quests and leveling in a sandbox setting with unlimited crafting and player housing.
And items/weapons that degrade with use.
Sand box and themepark begin to cross over when sand parks become complete systems and better virtual realities.
Vice a versa, when themeparks allow for more interaction and freedom with more intuitive systems that better simulate the themepark they become more of a sand box.
I would say of course there are clear barriers to what defines either... but I thought it would be interesting to look at this a bit differently as well.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Sandbox = World. Build block tools handed to players as ifs and maybes and told to go have fun.
Themepark = Developer created content to be consumed.
If your main source of enjoyment in a game is what you created, what you built, what you manipulated and community interactions then congratulations, you're in a sandbox. Star Wars Galaxies was a good example of this.
If your main source of enjoyment in a game is what you found, what you did, where you went, what you achieved then congratulations, you're in a theme park. The original EQ is a good example of this.
Apparently some people seem to think that "finding" something that the developers put there for the sole purpose of being found is somehow a sandbox element. It's not. However, if what you found is something another player put there, that is a sandbox trait.
I don't know about you, but when I went to Disney World, I was given a huge map and told to go have fun. I did not have to visit rides in any particular order. I didn't even have to look at the map. Being able to just head off in a direction does not a sandbox make. Sorry to disappoint. Especially if you want to be "rewarded" by the developers for exploring. Reminding me of a kid hoping for a gold sticker for finding the Easter eggs. If you're intent was a sandbox, that's just counter productive.
A sandbox with no structure, no reason to do anything save for what might happen if you spent enough time and creativity on it is no fun for me personally. A theme park that decides it would rather stick me on the train and not let me off from the moment I say 'go' does not appeal.
I would prefer a large theme park. A coherent structure with freedom to move within. Give me factions, but if you have politics then let the players participate. Give me quest lines, but if you have tasks let it be based on the state of the world and not a quota, x amount of xp needed to get from one level to another. Give me raids, but if you have big bads to defeat make the world react to their presence and their toppling. Give me some building blocks so I can be invested. Monitor and remove the disruptive elements. Let me make a character I want to spend time on.
And I'll be happy.
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