So should new WOW players be able to buy levels????????? Just Curious.
Blizzard has taken many steps to "solve" this issue for new players in WoW. Why did you think it's been getting so many new players the last few years?
First, with every new expansion a complete "gear wipe" happens. All that previous gear that took weeks and months of grinding becomes useless. Second, with each new expansion they shorten the leveling process of previous expansions and the original game. Leveling to 85 in Cataclysm, if anything, takes less time than levleing to 60 did back in Vanilla. Due to these changes, about halfway through WotLK it was possible for a brand new player to get up to speed and be doing true end-game content in 2-3 months. I don't know how it is now in Cataclysm because I no longer play. Suffice it to say, there has never been a time in WoW where it would take a dedicated player even half a year to get their character advanced enough to participate in any content in the game.
No one is asking to be able to "buy levels" in Eve. (Although, ironically enough, that's already possible and it's officially sanctioned to boot.) The suggestion on the table is to make it possible for new players to jump-start their characters, since character-progression in Eve is completely time-bound. Naturally it's not as big a deal as in a game like WoW, because you can still do some relevant things in Eve without having 30mil SP, but at the same time, it does make a big difference. The place it hits the hardest is if you join a player-run corp as a true newbie and your corp gets wardecced. Being in a wardecced corp as a true newbie with 1-2mil SP (or even less) is far from fun, and I'd put good money on it that this has caused many a potential long-term player to quit. When you're in that situation, not only do you not have the character skills to properly defend yourself, you also don't have the personal experience to know how to deal with it. I very nearly quit myself when it happened to me.
There will always be a divide on this which is why it won't happen. Noobs want to close the gap and vets feel like they deserve it.
So retroactively award veteran players an amount of extra SP equal to the amount of the SP boost the new players get, once you come up with a good working system. Let's say the boost gives new players a total of 10mil SP. So then every account that wasn't able to get the boost gets 10mil free SP once it hits 10mil SP, if it hasn't already at the time the boost system is implemented. Simple as that.
As a new player in EVE I really don't mind the training time. I'd be nice if it didn't take so long for certain things but it isn't too bad and I wouldn't really care if there were SP reward missions of not.
Not a bad idea, but not because of the being behind older players issue. As a returning player, I find that T1 frigates bore me to tears, partly because of the blandness of the ship type. You don't start to see any uniqueness related to the race of the ship until you get into the T1 cruiser range. Newer players might find their experiences improved if they can move out of the starter frigate class faster, particularly if they started via a buddy key and have gotten a bit of money from the referring player.
This is the huge misconception that you need to 'catch up' to the vets. you dont.
Yes it'll take some time getting SP, but you do not need to be excellent at frigs, and carriers, and mining, and trading, and invention.... Just pick one to start and get good at it. Yeah you wont be flying that titan anytime soon, but trust me, Titans are for vets, not rookies. Most vets have 2 accounts. You can even buy another account with isk that has millions of SP already on it if you want a pilot to hold onto super caps and titans for you (like you would be able to even afford it anytime soon)
Yes vets can do more then you, but it also allows you to learn the game. The game isn't about grinding. You do not want to grind out 10 million SP.
If you study and plan ahead, you can have a very nice pvp set up in over a month if that's what you're after. mining would take under 3 months to be pretty efficient in it. You would be suprised how much money you can make with very little SP in trade.
As an example, I've been able to start doing L4's with 1 million SP solo, and now make over a bill isk in less then 2 weeks. Not bad for a rookie.
There are tricks to getting your SP up. Do proper remaps, Learn how to make isk ASAP and get those +5 implants.
After I hit 1.2 millsion SP, i went straight to cyber 5, during the 11 days of training for cyber 5, I was able to make 500 million isk to buy the implants. Now im knocking off a day of skilling up every 12 days.
There's some vets with 40+ million SP that dont even have cyber 5 yet or +5 implants.
Eve is not about the short term goal. It's a sandbox game where you make your own fun.
People think im nuts, but at 4 million SP, with my implants and deadspace mods, im flying over 2.1 billion fit/implants for mission running, now im skilling up for blackops ship which will go well with my alliance's pvp ops. In the meantime, I make more isk to be able to afford to buy and fit multiple blackops ships.
Getting bonus SP is going to rush you and you wont be able to afford what you are flying.
If I lost my 1.6 bil (not counting implants) ship, I have a replacement ship .. you can't rush SP
Why would you want this? I have just started playing EvE and I love the game so far. I don't have much yet but so what? Why should it matter. I am a miner. Easy I know but I enjoy it. So you cannot compete against vets. You should not be able to. Someone with years of experience and skills aquired over time should be better than you. You don't have to be the best. FInd your place. Mine, hunt rats, explore. If you want to be as good as people who have put the time and effort in then put the time and effort in yourself. Join a corp (working on that myself) and get to know people. Find the place where you can fit in. You may not be at the front of the pack right away but you can find a place.
rather than the difference of SP being the major factor, what gives 'Vets' the advantage, isnt the skills you spend sp on, but game knowledge, Eve does have a steep learning curve, its a challenging game, which is why its so important to get into a corp as a new player so that you can get advice etc.. too many people get fixated on 'SP' when the game isnt really about SP... its the same kind of mentality that affects players of WoW type games, who must get to max level etc etc.. Eve is about playing the game, going on about SP all the time is just utter fail.. my main char has over 70m sp.. but.. that doesnt mean im invincible.. im just as likely to be flying the same kind of ship as a player who's only been there a fortnight.. maybe even using the same mods (T2 mods are expensive.. and in pvp.. you lose ships.. which is why often use T1 mods.... cheap'n'cheerful!) the biggest advantage.. will always be the tactical advantage.. that and good teamwork.. .. the trouble is.. that that kind of thing is so different from other MMO's that not many people get it..... unless they actually play Eve...
The first 5mill sp into combat are the difference between heaven and hell
half the fittings wont be even doable without the skills to increase ship cpu/ energy grid or reduce module costs
@Op i would gladly accept it and use it for my 2 other characters on the account to train them for certain jobs as you normally aren't able to train more than your main
The 2-5% advantage of a veteran with all LvL 5 skills is very neglectable and can be made up for with player-skills.
LOL. 1.05^25 is not negligible. This misinformation from the veterans might fool some, but I am a veteran myself and I know how many level 5 skills I had before I quit (dozens and dozens), and most of them materially impacted my ability to survive or bring firepower, and exponentially so actually the more you have.
EVE is a game of and for the veterans. It definately can be fun, even as a noob, but any noob should know they've got years of playing before they can begin to catch up. "You can tackle!" is the mantra the vets will tell the noobs. LOL.
If they don't change the system to allow purchase of SP with ISK I would suggest one of two things for a noob:
1) Do the free trial you might like it despite this. It actually is a very cool game with a vibe unique in the MMO industry. Just know that the playing field is slanted permanantly against you. No matter how much you play you cannot ever catch up
2) Buy a veteran character. CCP actually sanctions this because they know how important it is.
My guess is CCP will however implement a feature to buy SP, under the guise of using ISK to buy "training manuals" or something like that. There is money to be made by CCP in doing this, but they need to package it so the vets don't all quit on them by giving up their hard earned (aka "paid longer") advantage.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
So should new WOW players be able to buy levels????????? Just Curious.
Blizzard has taken many steps to "solve" this issue for new players in WoW. Why did you think it's been getting so many new players the last few years?
First, with every new expansion a complete "gear wipe" happens. All that previous gear that took weeks and months of grinding becomes useless. Second, with each new expansion they shorten the leveling process of previous expansions and the original game. Leveling to 85 in Cataclysm, if anything, takes less time than levleing to 60 did back in Vanilla. Due to these changes, about halfway through WotLK it was possible for a brand new player to get up to speed and be doing true end-game content in 2-3 months. I don't know how it is now in Cataclysm because I no longer play. Suffice it to say, there has never been a time in WoW where it would take a dedicated player even half a year to get their character advanced enough to participate in any content in the game.
No one is asking to be able to "buy levels" in Eve. (Although, ironically enough, that's already possible and it's officially sanctioned to boot.) The suggestion on the table is to make it possible for new players to jump-start their characters, since character-progression in Eve is completely time-bound. Naturally it's not as big a deal as in a game like WoW, because you can still do some relevant things in Eve without having 30mil SP, but at the same time, it does make a big difference. The place it hits the hardest is if you join a player-run corp as a true newbie and your corp gets wardecced. Being in a wardecced corp as a true newbie with 1-2mil SP (or even less) is far from fun, and I'd put good money on it that this has caused many a potential long-term player to quit. When you're in that situation, not only do you not have the character skills to properly defend yourself, you also don't have the personal experience to know how to deal with it. I very nearly quit myself when it happened to me.
Eve players already pay for Skill Points. That's how the game works. Each month you pay for set amount that you distribute as you desire.
Teala is asking that players that do one specific activity, be given more for their monthly subscription (yeah I know WTF).
In WOW, this would translate too giving levels for more money.
You are, however, correct when you point out that WOW's attempts to make the game easier have failed to result in anything other new players, that soon leave, and a falling subscription rate for the first time in the games history.
I voted no but it has nothing to do with fairness since EVE by its nature is unfair. The journey in EVE the feeling of accomplishment is one of the best things about it. When one of those 60 day skills finishes it feels awesome.
That's just it. It only feels awesome because it's finally done. But, it's based on time, not something that I did as a player (other than put it in the queue). Yeah, there's a little more to it than that, but that's basically the case. What's awesome about putting a skill in a queue and waiting 60 days - you don't even have to play during that time.
This is one of the design elements of EvE that's always bugged me a bit. I dislike something as arbitrary as time being used to control my skill advancement. I prefer that it be based on my effort as a player, and a result of actually playing, instead of "log in, check queue, log out, profit".
I voted no, but I never voted no because of it's unfair to veteran pilots, but that certainly would be a factor. I voted no because it would break apart one of EVE's mechanics. The skill training in EVE is most likely one of the most original features in the game, and by letting new players earn LP would make it look like all the other MMORPG's out there. So therefore a EVE would lose apart of it's individuality and identity.
EVE is about the harsh reality of living in a tin can, surrounded by an hostile environment. If you can't survive, then you have no right to be in the pod. If people want to take the easy route then I suggest Fairies Online. I looks like a very cute MMORPG.
This is one of the design elements of EvE that's always bugged me a bit. I dislike something as arbitrary as time being used to control my skill advancement. I prefer that it be based on my effort as a player...
Bingo.
Some ask me why I come across as anti-EVE, when in fact I am a once very happy veteran and very much enjoyed my time when I used to play. But that aspect of the game always bothered me. At first it bothered me because it felt very contrived by CCP to make me stay longer than the gameplay by itself might have. I literally had to wait months to try out some of the things that otherwise I might have put the effort to get to sooner.
But now it really REALLY bothers me because I see how unfair it is to new players. I constantly see the vets telling them it doesn't matter and that bothers me because I know it matters a tremendous amount. I am torn because I think new players should try the game: it is a great game. But when noobs are lied to it bothers me.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Bad idea... theres so much more to do than running missions in eve, it would just force everyone to grind most boring part of the game.
Agreed. The whole point of a "sand box" game is to give players the flexibility to do whatever they want to do, to play however they want to play, and to do so on an even playing field.
The suggestion that players could earn more SP by doing a particular activity (i.e. mission running) is completely counter-intuitive to that end goal. I for one don't particularly enjoy mission running - so why should I be hampered by the fact that I'd rather spend my "sand box" time doing something which I enjoy more?
By implementing such a system, you'd basically be adding "grind" into a sand box MMO. You're pushing players into a particular play style (grinding missions) in order to earn SP more quickly than they otherwise would by taking part in the dozens of other activities available to them within the game. You may think you're increasing "fun" for players, but in fact you're only increasing fun for one particular group of players... the ones who like to run missions.
Now the obvious retort would be "ok... then add SP rewards for other activities as well". If you do that across the board, for all types of play styles, all that you've really achieved is a flatter "leveling curve" up to 10m SP. Effectively you're giving new players a boost up to 10m. That's what most MMO's do anyway, especially once the majority of their players have reached the elder gameplay "levels" and the "n00b areas" start to resemble ghost towns.
But that's not the case in EVE. There are no empty "n00b areas", and there's plenty of action to be found at the early levels. Sure you can't effectively go PvP with a 5 year vet, but why should you be able to? That's akin to saying a level 5 warrior in WoW should be able to go PvP with a bunch of 80's... or that a highschool football player should be able to go hang and compete with a bunch of pro athletes.
One last thing... were you to implement such a system, it might be a boon to recruiting new players to the game, and that's exactly what you'd need - because so many veterans would quit the game over the unfair advantage given to new players, the imbalances created instantly, that you'd need the new blood. Anytime a game makes fundamental changes which affect veterans, those people start leaving in droves. The nature of the change doesn't matter - it can be class "balancing", it can be a "NGE", it can be "Cataclysm" or a change to something like leveling dynamics. The best approach is to not touch it...
Find a different way to bring new players to the game without breaking it for everybody else.
This is one of the design elements of EvE that's always bugged me a bit. I dislike something as arbitrary as time being used to control my skill advancement. I prefer that it be based on my effort as a player...
Bingo.
Some ask me why I come across as anti-EVE, when in fact I am a once very happy veteran and very much enjoyed my time when I used to play. But that aspect of the game always bothered me. At first it bothered me because it felt very contrived by CCP to make me stay longer than the gameplay by itself might have. I literally had to wait months to try out some of the things that otherwise I might have put the effort to get to sooner.
But now it really REALLY bothers me because I see how unfair it is to new players. I constantly see the vets telling them it doesn't matter and that bothers me because I know it matters a tremendous amount. I am torn because I think new players should try the game: it is a great game. But when noobs are lied to it bothers me.
Sigh, again with the "EVE's skill training is unfair to new players" line.
Guess you missed this from a few posts up, where a new player (Covet78) talks about his experience in EVE.
I voted no. and I only have 4.4 million SP.
This is the huge misconception that you need to 'catch up' to the vets. you dont.
Yes it'll take some time getting SP, but you do not need to be excellent at frigs, and carriers, and mining, and trading, and invention.... Just pick one to start and get good at it. Yeah you wont be flying that titan anytime soon, but trust me, Titans are for vets, not rookies. Most vets have 2 accounts. You can even buy another account with isk that has millions of SP already on it if you want a pilot to hold onto super caps and titans for you (like you would be able to even afford it anytime soon)
Yes vets can do more then you, but it also allows you to learn the game. The game isn't about grinding. You do not want to grind out 10 million SP.
If you study and plan ahead, you can have a very nice pvp set up in over a month if that's what you're after. mining would take under 3 months to be pretty efficient in it. You would be suprised how much money you can make with very little SP in trade.
As an example, I've been able to start doing L4's with 1 million SP solo, and now make over a bill isk in less then 2 weeks. Not bad for a rookie.
There are tricks to getting your SP up. Do proper remaps, Learn how to make isk ASAP and get those +5 implants.
After I hit 1.2 millsion SP, i went straight to cyber 5, during the 11 days of training for cyber 5, I was able to make 500 million isk to buy the implants. Now im knocking off a day of skilling up every 12 days.
There's some vets with 40+ million SP that dont even have cyber 5 yet or +5 implants.
Eve is not about the short term goal. It's a sandbox game where you make your own fun.
People think im nuts, but at 4 million SP, with my implants and deadspace mods, im flying over 2.1 billion fit/implants for mission running, now im skilling up for blackops ship which will go well with my alliance's pvp ops. In the meantime, I make more isk to be able to afford to buy and fit multiple blackops ships.
Getting bonus SP is going to rush you and you wont be able to afford what you are flying.
If I lost my 1.6 bil (not counting implants) ship, I have a replacement ship .. you can't rush SP
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So should new WOW players be able to buy levels????????? Just Curious.
Blizzard has taken many steps to "solve" this issue for new players in WoW. Why did you think it's been getting so many new players the last few years?
First, with every new expansion a complete "gear wipe" happens. All that previous gear that took weeks and months of grinding becomes useless. Second, with each new expansion they shorten the leveling process of previous expansions and the original game. Leveling to 85 in Cataclysm, if anything, takes less time than levleing to 60 did back in Vanilla. Due to these changes, about halfway through WotLK it was possible for a brand new player to get up to speed and be doing true end-game content in 2-3 months. I don't know how it is now in Cataclysm because I no longer play. Suffice it to say, there has never been a time in WoW where it would take a dedicated player even half a year to get their character advanced enough to participate in any content in the game.
No one is asking to be able to "buy levels" in Eve. (Although, ironically enough, that's already possible and it's officially sanctioned to boot.) The suggestion on the table is to make it possible for new players to jump-start their characters, since character-progression in Eve is completely time-bound. Naturally it's not as big a deal as in a game like WoW, because you can still do some relevant things in Eve without having 30mil SP, but at the same time, it does make a big difference. The place it hits the hardest is if you join a player-run corp as a true newbie and your corp gets wardecced. Being in a wardecced corp as a true newbie with 1-2mil SP (or even less) is far from fun, and I'd put good money on it that this has caused many a potential long-term player to quit. When you're in that situation, not only do you not have the character skills to properly defend yourself, you also don't have the personal experience to know how to deal with it. I very nearly quit myself when it happened to me.
You ALMOST quit? Why didn't you? Oh that's right...you used your brain? You got some friends and figured a way out? So what you are saying is....you passed a simple wardec test, and b/c you passed it...the next group of newbies shouldn't have to ENDURE the heartache and pain of living in a persistent world?
It would seem to me you would understand that. What did you gain from this experience? Did you pull up stakes and move locations? Did you attack your aggressors alts in their missions and disrupt their cash flow. Did you station camp them with cheap T1 ships and make their lives miserable back?
Are you following along? Getting wardecced in hi sec is a test. Have you ever tried to take sov from another alliance? Have you ever invented something? Have you ever worked your ass off with your group of friends and not succeeded? Why bother doing it ...if we can just ask nanny CCP to give it to us?
No thanks..I'd rather earn my way. People that quit b/c others are interacting with them, have to figure out if they will ADAPT or QUIT. Please don't remove one of the last games that allow players to actually impact each others experiences.
Thanks in advance. I have to get back to my wardec and killing my war targets. Tootle loo.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
This is one of the design elements of EvE that's always bugged me a bit. I dislike something as arbitrary as time being used to control my skill advancement. I prefer that it be based on my effort as a player...
Bingo.
Some ask me why I come across as anti-EVE, when in fact I am a once very happy veteran and very much enjoyed my time when I used to play. But that aspect of the game always bothered me. At first it bothered me because it felt very contrived by CCP to make me stay longer than the gameplay by itself might have. I literally had to wait months to try out some of the things that otherwise I might have put the effort to get to sooner.
But now it really REALLY bothers me because I see how unfair it is to new players. I constantly see the vets telling them it doesn't matter and that bothers me because I know it matters a tremendous amount. I am torn because I think new players should try the game: it is a great game. But when noobs are lied to it bothers me.
Have to disagree with this one.
By tying SP to time, CCP has capped how quickly you can gain BREADTH of ability, not necessarily DEPTH. In 3-6 months (the amount of time lots of players would take to reach level cap in a traditional level-based MMO), you can become very skilled in a particular activity. Skilled enough to compete with vets in that particular activity. What the vet has that you don't is the flexibility to immediately hop into a completely different ship with a different playstyle...
The advantage to CCP is that it gives players the opportunity to EITHER quickly specialize and become "competitive" in one area, OR they can go for immediate breadth, becoming a jack of all trades but master of none of them. Sure it arbitrarily levels the playing field by not allowing gamers who play 18 hours per day to quickly move past gamers who play for only 1-2, but only from a SP perspective. The person who plays 18 hours per day is still going to have far (far) more ISK and gamer expertise (i.e. fittings, etc.) than the casual gamer, and thus will still have an advantage there.
By the way, no I don't play EVE any longer, so I'm hardly a fanboy saying these things.
The mechanic takes one aspect of the game and removes the grind. You don't have to really devote time on tasks to increase skill, instead time can be focused more on playing the game. Sure it means there will always may be someone with more total number of skill points, but this isn't really what the game is about. Consider that John Playforever Doe has sat in the station and done nothing but train for years, does that make him better than the guy who is running the alliance which controls a large chunk of EVE's space?
The artificial throttle on skill points is a coming of age progression. Players need to learn how to play over time; become proficient with what they can use when they can use it and understand how it all fits into the universe. Otherwise, which I have seen with friends, they have no clue on how to use all the possible tools at their disposal and become even more frustrated.
Lastly, if you truly believe Skill Points make the player, you can always just buy a character with ISK. This can be done from ISK earned through play, your so called 'grind' for skills, or you can purchase GTC and exchange them for ISK and purchase that way.
I couldnt vote in the poll, because while I do agree that there should be something done to help the new players, adding this would not be enough to get me to start out fresh in eve.
This is a major problem for all games that have PvP -- people joining late can never really catch up.
This probably affects games like warhammer and aion more than eve but my idea for these games in general is the following:
Every timeframe you get a TEMPORARY new server (yes I know eve is seamless). For eve things would be a bit slower than in a game like warhammer or aion (where I would recommend the full time a server is up be 2 months max) so it would last for say 5 months to make the starting time revolve around the year. EXP on the newbie server has a bonus (lets say 60% for the purpose of this exercise). At the end of the timeframe a new newbie server would open and the newbies from the old server get to invade the main server all at the same time. This would make things more interesting as they would have their own alliances etc.
the catch up thing got discussed on some many threads and so many times
PD: the only thing i want is to see some ppl that posted on this thread on the armageddon day whit 400 millions SP and see how good you are at pvp ....
Personally I'd have no problem with it, except if its a solution meant to address a misconception about sp and catching up, then its a fix for something that is not broken, but only seems broken to people who are not playing and are uninformed. I don't think the game needs to be modded to cater to that specific group.
You can only fly one ship at a time, unless they want to fly caps about from the off, it doesn't take that long to 'catch up'.
There is a massive misconception about the gap from newb to vet, in all honesty any gap has little to do with offline sp gain and a shit load to do with learning the ins and outs of the game as a player.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Should new players be able to earn SP via missions? Let me explain before people go all frothing at the mouth and getting upset over this.
One of the complaints of new players is that due to the nature of EVE's real time learning skill system they will never be able to catch up to players that have been playing for, literally, years. Would it hurt if CCP was to add "skill points" as rewards for completing missions that players can distribute to their skills - upto a maximum of 10 million SP? In other words, once a player hits the 10 mill SP mark, the SP rewards for running missions stops and the player must then use the standard skill learning mechanism in the game to advance their training.
This way a new player can get upto speed faster and have a better chance of intergrating with a player base that on average has 30 to 50 mill SP.
Your "poll" is flawed in that it assumes that veterans are the ones that would find it unfair. I think that there could be non-veterans that would also consider it unfair and not just veterans. However, if you answer based upon veteran or non-veteran status you have essentially made the poll invalid.
Now, as to whether this sort of SP "bonus" for new players is actually needed or not, I would have to say it is not. It has been proven time and time again that a new player can be competitive very early on in their EVE career against vets IF they distribute their points wisely. Being a veteran is not a "I win" title in the first place within EVE. It only means you have more tools at your disposal, not that the tools themselves make vets overpowered.
I voted no... Not because I am a Vet who finds it unfair to me but because I am a vet who understands that those who would now wait to PvP till they max out there "Mission SP" would now be faced with the much harder prospect of starting PvP at a higher SP level. Get started earlier in pvp and you'll be much happier overall.
Comments
Blizzard has taken many steps to "solve" this issue for new players in WoW. Why did you think it's been getting so many new players the last few years?
First, with every new expansion a complete "gear wipe" happens. All that previous gear that took weeks and months of grinding becomes useless. Second, with each new expansion they shorten the leveling process of previous expansions and the original game. Leveling to 85 in Cataclysm, if anything, takes less time than levleing to 60 did back in Vanilla. Due to these changes, about halfway through WotLK it was possible for a brand new player to get up to speed and be doing true end-game content in 2-3 months. I don't know how it is now in Cataclysm because I no longer play. Suffice it to say, there has never been a time in WoW where it would take a dedicated player even half a year to get their character advanced enough to participate in any content in the game.
No one is asking to be able to "buy levels" in Eve. (Although, ironically enough, that's already possible and it's officially sanctioned to boot.) The suggestion on the table is to make it possible for new players to jump-start their characters, since character-progression in Eve is completely time-bound. Naturally it's not as big a deal as in a game like WoW, because you can still do some relevant things in Eve without having 30mil SP, but at the same time, it does make a big difference. The place it hits the hardest is if you join a player-run corp as a true newbie and your corp gets wardecced. Being in a wardecced corp as a true newbie with 1-2mil SP (or even less) is far from fun, and I'd put good money on it that this has caused many a potential long-term player to quit. When you're in that situation, not only do you not have the character skills to properly defend yourself, you also don't have the personal experience to know how to deal with it. I very nearly quit myself when it happened to me.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
There will always be a divide on this which is why it won't happen. Noobs want to close the gap and vets feel like they deserve it.
So retroactively award veteran players an amount of extra SP equal to the amount of the SP boost the new players get, once you come up with a good working system. Let's say the boost gives new players a total of 10mil SP. So then every account that wasn't able to get the boost gets 10mil free SP once it hits 10mil SP, if it hasn't already at the time the boost system is implemented. Simple as that.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
As a new player in EVE I really don't mind the training time. I'd be nice if it didn't take so long for certain things but it isn't too bad and I wouldn't really care if there were SP reward missions of not.
Make games you want to play.
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Not a bad idea, but not because of the being behind older players issue. As a returning player, I find that T1 frigates bore me to tears, partly because of the blandness of the ship type. You don't start to see any uniqueness related to the race of the ship until you get into the T1 cruiser range. Newer players might find their experiences improved if they can move out of the starter frigate class faster, particularly if they started via a buddy key and have gotten a bit of money from the referring player.
I voted no. and I only have 4.4 million SP.
This is the huge misconception that you need to 'catch up' to the vets. you dont.
Yes it'll take some time getting SP, but you do not need to be excellent at frigs, and carriers, and mining, and trading, and invention.... Just pick one to start and get good at it. Yeah you wont be flying that titan anytime soon, but trust me, Titans are for vets, not rookies. Most vets have 2 accounts. You can even buy another account with isk that has millions of SP already on it if you want a pilot to hold onto super caps and titans for you (like you would be able to even afford it anytime soon)
Yes vets can do more then you, but it also allows you to learn the game. The game isn't about grinding. You do not want to grind out 10 million SP.
If you study and plan ahead, you can have a very nice pvp set up in over a month if that's what you're after. mining would take under 3 months to be pretty efficient in it. You would be suprised how much money you can make with very little SP in trade.
As an example, I've been able to start doing L4's with 1 million SP solo, and now make over a bill isk in less then 2 weeks. Not bad for a rookie.
There are tricks to getting your SP up. Do proper remaps, Learn how to make isk ASAP and get those +5 implants.
After I hit 1.2 millsion SP, i went straight to cyber 5, during the 11 days of training for cyber 5, I was able to make 500 million isk to buy the implants. Now im knocking off a day of skilling up every 12 days.
There's some vets with 40+ million SP that dont even have cyber 5 yet or +5 implants.
Eve is not about the short term goal. It's a sandbox game where you make your own fun.
People think im nuts, but at 4 million SP, with my implants and deadspace mods, im flying over 2.1 billion fit/implants for mission running, now im skilling up for blackops ship which will go well with my alliance's pvp ops. In the meantime, I make more isk to be able to afford to buy and fit multiple blackops ships.
Getting bonus SP is going to rush you and you wont be able to afford what you are flying.
If I lost my 1.6 bil (not counting implants) ship, I have a replacement ship
.. you can't rush SP
The first 5mill sp into combat are the difference between heaven and hell
half the fittings wont be even doable without the skills to increase ship cpu/ energy grid or reduce module costs
@Op i would gladly accept it and use it for my 2 other characters on the account to train them for certain jobs as you normally aren't able to train more than your main
Pi*1337/100 = 42
LOL. 1.05^25 is not negligible. This misinformation from the veterans might fool some, but I am a veteran myself and I know how many level 5 skills I had before I quit (dozens and dozens), and most of them materially impacted my ability to survive or bring firepower, and exponentially so actually the more you have.
EVE is a game of and for the veterans. It definately can be fun, even as a noob, but any noob should know they've got years of playing before they can begin to catch up. "You can tackle!" is the mantra the vets will tell the noobs. LOL.
If they don't change the system to allow purchase of SP with ISK I would suggest one of two things for a noob:
1) Do the free trial you might like it despite this. It actually is a very cool game with a vibe unique in the MMO industry. Just know that the playing field is slanted permanantly against you. No matter how much you play you cannot ever catch up
2) Buy a veteran character. CCP actually sanctions this because they know how important it is.
My guess is CCP will however implement a feature to buy SP, under the guise of using ISK to buy "training manuals" or something like that. There is money to be made by CCP in doing this, but they need to package it so the vets don't all quit on them by giving up their hard earned (aka "paid longer") advantage.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Eve players already pay for Skill Points. That's how the game works. Each month you pay for set amount that you distribute as you desire.
Teala is asking that players that do one specific activity, be given more for their monthly subscription (yeah I know WTF).
In WOW, this would translate too giving levels for more money.
You are, however, correct when you point out that WOW's attempts to make the game easier have failed to result in anything other new players, that soon leave, and a falling subscription rate for the first time in the games history.
That's just it. It only feels awesome because it's finally done. But, it's based on time, not something that I did as a player (other than put it in the queue). Yeah, there's a little more to it than that, but that's basically the case. What's awesome about putting a skill in a queue and waiting 60 days - you don't even have to play during that time.
This is one of the design elements of EvE that's always bugged me a bit. I dislike something as arbitrary as time being used to control my skill advancement. I prefer that it be based on my effort as a player, and a result of actually playing, instead of "log in, check queue, log out, profit".
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I voted no, but I never voted no because of it's unfair to veteran pilots, but that certainly would be a factor. I voted no because it would break apart one of EVE's mechanics. The skill training in EVE is most likely one of the most original features in the game, and by letting new players earn LP would make it look like all the other MMORPG's out there. So therefore a EVE would lose apart of it's individuality and identity.
EVE is about the harsh reality of living in a tin can, surrounded by an hostile environment. If you can't survive, then you have no right to be in the pod. If people want to take the easy route then I suggest Fairies Online. I looks like a very cute MMORPG.
Bingo.
Some ask me why I come across as anti-EVE, when in fact I am a once very happy veteran and very much enjoyed my time when I used to play. But that aspect of the game always bothered me. At first it bothered me because it felt very contrived by CCP to make me stay longer than the gameplay by itself might have. I literally had to wait months to try out some of the things that otherwise I might have put the effort to get to sooner.
But now it really REALLY bothers me because I see how unfair it is to new players. I constantly see the vets telling them it doesn't matter and that bothers me because I know it matters a tremendous amount. I am torn because I think new players should try the game: it is a great game. But when noobs are lied to it bothers me.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Agreed. The whole point of a "sand box" game is to give players the flexibility to do whatever they want to do, to play however they want to play, and to do so on an even playing field.
The suggestion that players could earn more SP by doing a particular activity (i.e. mission running) is completely counter-intuitive to that end goal. I for one don't particularly enjoy mission running - so why should I be hampered by the fact that I'd rather spend my "sand box" time doing something which I enjoy more?
By implementing such a system, you'd basically be adding "grind" into a sand box MMO. You're pushing players into a particular play style (grinding missions) in order to earn SP more quickly than they otherwise would by taking part in the dozens of other activities available to them within the game. You may think you're increasing "fun" for players, but in fact you're only increasing fun for one particular group of players... the ones who like to run missions.
Now the obvious retort would be "ok... then add SP rewards for other activities as well". If you do that across the board, for all types of play styles, all that you've really achieved is a flatter "leveling curve" up to 10m SP. Effectively you're giving new players a boost up to 10m. That's what most MMO's do anyway, especially once the majority of their players have reached the elder gameplay "levels" and the "n00b areas" start to resemble ghost towns.
But that's not the case in EVE. There are no empty "n00b areas", and there's plenty of action to be found at the early levels. Sure you can't effectively go PvP with a 5 year vet, but why should you be able to? That's akin to saying a level 5 warrior in WoW should be able to go PvP with a bunch of 80's... or that a highschool football player should be able to go hang and compete with a bunch of pro athletes.
One last thing... were you to implement such a system, it might be a boon to recruiting new players to the game, and that's exactly what you'd need - because so many veterans would quit the game over the unfair advantage given to new players, the imbalances created instantly, that you'd need the new blood. Anytime a game makes fundamental changes which affect veterans, those people start leaving in droves. The nature of the change doesn't matter - it can be class "balancing", it can be a "NGE", it can be "Cataclysm" or a change to something like leveling dynamics. The best approach is to not touch it...
Find a different way to bring new players to the game without breaking it for everybody else.
Sigh, again with the "EVE's skill training is unfair to new players" line.
Guess you missed this from a few posts up, where a new player (Covet78) talks about his experience in EVE.
I voted no. and I only have 4.4 million SP.
This is the huge misconception that you need to 'catch up' to the vets. you dont.
Yes it'll take some time getting SP, but you do not need to be excellent at frigs, and carriers, and mining, and trading, and invention.... Just pick one to start and get good at it. Yeah you wont be flying that titan anytime soon, but trust me, Titans are for vets, not rookies. Most vets have 2 accounts. You can even buy another account with isk that has millions of SP already on it if you want a pilot to hold onto super caps and titans for you (like you would be able to even afford it anytime soon)
Yes vets can do more then you, but it also allows you to learn the game. The game isn't about grinding. You do not want to grind out 10 million SP.
If you study and plan ahead, you can have a very nice pvp set up in over a month if that's what you're after. mining would take under 3 months to be pretty efficient in it. You would be suprised how much money you can make with very little SP in trade.
As an example, I've been able to start doing L4's with 1 million SP solo, and now make over a bill isk in less then 2 weeks. Not bad for a rookie.
There are tricks to getting your SP up. Do proper remaps, Learn how to make isk ASAP and get those +5 implants.
After I hit 1.2 millsion SP, i went straight to cyber 5, during the 11 days of training for cyber 5, I was able to make 500 million isk to buy the implants. Now im knocking off a day of skilling up every 12 days.
There's some vets with 40+ million SP that dont even have cyber 5 yet or +5 implants.
Eve is not about the short term goal. It's a sandbox game where you make your own fun.
People think im nuts, but at 4 million SP, with my implants and deadspace mods, im flying over 2.1 billion fit/implants for mission running, now im skilling up for blackops ship which will go well with my alliance's pvp ops. In the meantime, I make more isk to be able to afford to buy and fit multiple blackops ships.
Getting bonus SP is going to rush you and you wont be able to afford what you are flying.
If I lost my 1.6 bil (not counting implants) ship, I have a replacement ship
.. you can't rush SP
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You ALMOST quit? Why didn't you? Oh that's right...you used your brain? You got some friends and figured a way out? So what you are saying is....you passed a simple wardec test, and b/c you passed it...the next group of newbies shouldn't have to ENDURE the heartache and pain of living in a persistent world?
It would seem to me you would understand that. What did you gain from this experience? Did you pull up stakes and move locations? Did you attack your aggressors alts in their missions and disrupt their cash flow. Did you station camp them with cheap T1 ships and make their lives miserable back?
Are you following along? Getting wardecced in hi sec is a test. Have you ever tried to take sov from another alliance? Have you ever invented something? Have you ever worked your ass off with your group of friends and not succeeded? Why bother doing it ...if we can just ask nanny CCP to give it to us?
No thanks..I'd rather earn my way. People that quit b/c others are interacting with them, have to figure out if they will ADAPT or QUIT. Please don't remove one of the last games that allow players to actually impact each others experiences.
Thanks in advance. I have to get back to my wardec and killing my war targets. Tootle loo.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Have to disagree with this one.
By tying SP to time, CCP has capped how quickly you can gain BREADTH of ability, not necessarily DEPTH. In 3-6 months (the amount of time lots of players would take to reach level cap in a traditional level-based MMO), you can become very skilled in a particular activity. Skilled enough to compete with vets in that particular activity. What the vet has that you don't is the flexibility to immediately hop into a completely different ship with a different playstyle...
The advantage to CCP is that it gives players the opportunity to EITHER quickly specialize and become "competitive" in one area, OR they can go for immediate breadth, becoming a jack of all trades but master of none of them. Sure it arbitrarily levels the playing field by not allowing gamers who play 18 hours per day to quickly move past gamers who play for only 1-2, but only from a SP perspective. The person who plays 18 hours per day is still going to have far (far) more ISK and gamer expertise (i.e. fittings, etc.) than the casual gamer, and thus will still have an advantage there.
By the way, no I don't play EVE any longer, so I'm hardly a fanboy saying these things.
Exactly!
I voted No.
The mechanic takes one aspect of the game and removes the grind. You don't have to really devote time on tasks to increase skill, instead time can be focused more on playing the game. Sure it means there will always may be someone with more total number of skill points, but this isn't really what the game is about. Consider that John Playforever Doe has sat in the station and done nothing but train for years, does that make him better than the guy who is running the alliance which controls a large chunk of EVE's space?
The artificial throttle on skill points is a coming of age progression. Players need to learn how to play over time; become proficient with what they can use when they can use it and understand how it all fits into the universe. Otherwise, which I have seen with friends, they have no clue on how to use all the possible tools at their disposal and become even more frustrated.
Lastly, if you truly believe Skill Points make the player, you can always just buy a character with ISK. This can be done from ISK earned through play, your so called 'grind' for skills, or you can purchase GTC and exchange them for ISK and purchase that way.
I couldnt vote in the poll, because while I do agree that there should be something done to help the new players, adding this would not be enough to get me to start out fresh in eve.
This is a major problem for all games that have PvP -- people joining late can never really catch up.
This probably affects games like warhammer and aion more than eve but my idea for these games in general is the following:
Every timeframe you get a TEMPORARY new server (yes I know eve is seamless). For eve things would be a bit slower than in a game like warhammer or aion (where I would recommend the full time a server is up be 2 months max) so it would last for say 5 months to make the starting time revolve around the year. EXP on the newbie server has a bonus (lets say 60% for the purpose of this exercise). At the end of the timeframe a new newbie server would open and the newbies from the old server get to invade the main server all at the same time. This would make things more interesting as they would have their own alliances etc.
the catch up thing got discussed on some many threads and so many times
PD: the only thing i want is to see some ppl that posted on this thread on the armageddon day whit 400 millions SP and see how good you are at pvp ....
BestSigEver :P
Personally I'd have no problem with it, except if its a solution meant to address a misconception about sp and catching up, then its a fix for something that is not broken, but only seems broken to people who are not playing and are uninformed. I don't think the game needs to be modded to cater to that specific group.
Nope.
You can only fly one ship at a time, unless they want to fly caps about from the off, it doesn't take that long to 'catch up'.
There is a massive misconception about the gap from newb to vet, in all honesty any gap has little to do with offline sp gain and a shit load to do with learning the ins and outs of the game as a player.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
YES! The game should have been like that from start. It takes away a huge part of the game not being able to actively advance your character.
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Your "poll" is flawed in that it assumes that veterans are the ones that would find it unfair. I think that there could be non-veterans that would also consider it unfair and not just veterans. However, if you answer based upon veteran or non-veteran status you have essentially made the poll invalid.
Now, as to whether this sort of SP "bonus" for new players is actually needed or not, I would have to say it is not. It has been proven time and time again that a new player can be competitive very early on in their EVE career against vets IF they distribute their points wisely. Being a veteran is not a "I win" title in the first place within EVE. It only means you have more tools at your disposal, not that the tools themselves make vets overpowered.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I voted no... Not because I am a Vet who finds it unfair to me but because I am a vet who understands that those who would now wait to PvP till they max out there "Mission SP" would now be faced with the much harder prospect of starting PvP at a higher SP level. Get started earlier in pvp and you'll be much happier overall.