Weird, how you consider a 2 year player a vet. And here I was thinking I was just playing to have fun. Guess I'm involved in some conspiracy theory I knew nothing of.
Weird, how you consider a 2 year player a vet. And here I was thinking I was just playing to have fun. Guess I'm involved in some conspiracy theory I knew nothing of.
No, a 2 year player still has massive disadvantages over a 7 year vet for instance.
But I think it very fun you still consider yourself a noob after 2 years. Kind of true I guess, but pretty much sums it up doesn't it???
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
It never fails to amuse me to see how widespread the fallacy of "making a game easier makes it more fun" is.
For shame, OP. You're old enough to know better.
"That which is gotten cheaply is held in contempt"
No one is giving anyone anything. Player would still have to earn it...it just wouldn't take a year or "real" time. It might take half-that, maybe a little less, but it would still take time. The SP earn via missions is barely a scrape in in the bucket. I've explained what allowing a new player to do this would benefit the player.
Now how about the game.
So a new player eventually caps that 10 mil SP. They can fly a decently armed and fitted ship. 10 mil will not put them in but maybe 1 ship to where they can fly it with rigs, t2 fittings and the skills to back it up. They have done missions over the last few months and maybe did some PvP. They've tasted Empire space for long enough. He/she joins a corp "now" that is willing to even look at a 10 mil SP pilot. They teach them the ropes of PvP in low-sec and null sec. This person had gone Covert-Ops and can fly a Manticore with teeth. Long range stealth bomber/torpedo boat. That is something that has some value to a corp. They could just as well as specialized in tackling, interdiction, sniping, e-war, logistics support, the list goes on and on. The new person will feel like a better fit for a veteran group and not as likely to turn the person down when they ask to join if they can do it and do it well, any of the things I just mentioned.
To many corps these days would not even give a 10 mil SP character a second glance unless they themselves are a total noob corp.
What if the person decides to go another route...say miner. This would allow them to bring a miner to your corp that is capable of doing it all. Refining, gas cloud harvvesting, ice mining, and deep core - using all the best with maxed skills! Hell they might even be able to squeeze in enough training post 10mil in a couple of months to fly an Orca with mining foreman links and run mining ops for you. The difference is, it will not have taken them a year or more to get there. They could do it in maybe 6 months. There is value to any corp with this person. A noob miner in low-sex or null-sec is fodder for a roaming band of NPC roid rats let alone a PC rat. It takes months to train up to be able to loadout a hulk that can withstand a first strike and still bug out, if he doesn't have anyone readily available to watch his/her back.
I am a vet player and I approve of this. I think this would add incentive for new players to stick around for more than their fifteen day trial, or sign on for one month than bail when they realize how far actually behind the ball they really are, and their next skill requires 7 days to train and they have 5 left in their first month. How many are going to wait for that seven days "in real" time just to be able to train in the advanced version of that skill that has a x6 or x8 multiplier and they are looking at another 2 months of training to get to the level your average vet pilot is at. How come none of you that are arguing against this mention this in your argument? Don't tell me that the more SP doesn't matter, because it does, especially when a skill point sometimes adds 20% damage per skill level(of yeah...what can produce this kind of damage output with advanced training per skill level? Answer: Drone Interfacing Though most skills advance you by only 5% per skill level learned, nevertheless, 5x5 is 25, that means you are producing 25% more(as a veteran player and in most instances more since you have more than one advanced skill trained to atleast 4 or 5 that adds damage to your weapons) than a noob with say only gunnery to 4 and motion prediction to 3. You vets that say that SP doesn't matter are not telling the complete truth. You're glossing over it. That is why most of your better PvP corps will not even consider a noob even with 5-10 mil SP!
10 mil SP being "eraned", "over a period of time"(shorter than the year plus it takes now), will not break this game. It will not hamper null-sec, or low-sec, or even high-sec space. It will however in my opinion help bring new players to the game and if we're really lucky "more" will stay and keep playing; and that is a win for everyone.
I vote yes, it's impossible to catch up with people that have 3-4 year advantage, no matter how much you play. They will simply have more stats, more ships - more options then any other player, hardcore or not.
It's not about catching up or options, it's about how you allocate the skill points you've got. I can take a new character and train them up into frigate within two weeks, and they would hold their own against a vet. I know this, because I've done it. Remember that when your character reaches level five you can't go any higher. You can't get any more out of the ship you've trained for, unless you use implants or boosters.
Originally posted by Teala
Know what I find so funny is that most good PvP corps won't even consider you for their corp unless you have PVP experience and 30+ mil SP. Sure a few might take on someone with 10-20 mil SP, but not many. Go read the recruitment boards over at EVE Online.
As for the 20+ or 30+ mil points required to join a corporation. I think you will find it's not about the number of skill points they've got. It's more about how much the pilot is dedicated. Because you don't want to take a newbie in, spend time and ISK training them, only to have them leave the game a few weeks later. Plus it's also an anti spy device since most people aren't willing to pay for a new account, just to go and spy on somebody.
Know what I find so funny is that most good PvP corps won't even consider you for their corp unless you have PVP experience and 30+ mil SP. Sure a few might take on someone with 10-20 mil SP, but not many. Go read the recruitment boards over at EVE Online.
Ok but are those corps looking for SP purely for the sake of SP or are they using SP as a measure of experience? Who would it serve to put sp'd but relatively inexperienced pilots into play?
I think EvE offers a lot and to change the game mechanics just to put one dynamic into easier reach of new players would need to be considered very carefully. As I said earlier, I'm not against it because I think it's unfair, but I think the game is pretty damn good and successful already so I'd question the need to change something so potentially big just to appease the small minority for whom this would be an issue.
I would agree the SP requirement isn't just based on the number alone. They want people who have been playing for a while and know what they are doing. Also, this allows a corporation to examine the player to see how and what they have done through their employment history. This way they can root out bad players, spies, pricks, and scammers.
If you give some Bonus then the requirement will just go up whatever the bonus amount is. Right now, you can know that SP corrolates to how long someone has been playing, not how long they have been grinding out NPC tasks.
Overall, if you don't have a different approach and mindset to how EVE is setup, it just isn't the game for you. It isn't like other recent MMO games at all, but perhaps that is why it is one that is continuing to grow and increase in population.
It's not about catching up or options as you've said. It's how you allocate the skill points you've got. I can take a new character and train them up into frigate within two weeks, and they would hold their own against a vet. I know this, because I've done it. Remember that when your charter reaches level five you can't go any higher. You can't get any more out of the ship you've trained for, unless you use implants or boosters.
Aki, be careful. There be trolls in these waters. That sensible talk only attracts them. Those and people who tell themselves about big pictures that aren't there.
I vote yes, it's impossible to catch up with people that have 3-4 year advantage, no matter how much you play. They will simply have more stats, more ships - more options then any other player, hardcore or not.
It's not about catching up or options, it's about how you allocate the skill points you've got. I can take a new character and train them up into frigate within two weeks, and they would hold their own against a vet. I know this, because I've done it. Remember that when your character reaches level five you can't go any higher. You can't get any more out of the ship you've trained for, unless you use implants or boosters.
Right. Any good vet will have you for breakfast. A vet with advanced gunnery skills(adding on average 25% more damage, and tackling skills that will over come anything you can through at them on a two week old character in a frigate - even if the vet was flying a frigate fitted the same as yours...you would lose - unless the vet just plain sucks).
Originally posted by Teala
Know what I find so funny is that most good PvP corps won't even consider you for their corp unless you have PVP experience and 30+ mil SP. Sure a few might take on someone with 10-20 mil SP, but not many. Go read the recruitment boards over at EVE Online.
As for the 20+ or 30+ mil points required to join a corporation. I think you will find it's not about the number of skill points they've got. It's more about how much the pilot is dedicated. Because you don't want to take a newbie in, spend time and ISK training them, only to have them leave the game a few weeks later. Plus it's also an anti spy device since most people aren't willing to pay for a new account, just to go and spy on somebody.
My response to this as I have said repeatedly - You people act as if we're asking CCP to just give new players 10 mil SP. It would still take upwards of a few months to earn 10 mil SP, it would not happen over night.
I vote yes, it's impossible to catch up with people that have 3-4 year advantage, no matter how much you play. They will simply have more stats, more ships - more options then any other player, hardcore or not.
It's not about catching up or options, it's about how you allocate the skill points you've got. I can take a new character and train them up into frigate within two weeks, and they would hold their own against a vet. I know this, because I've done it. Remember that when your character reaches level five you can't go any higher. You can't get any more out of the ship you've trained for, unless you use implants or boosters.
Right. Any good vet will have you for breakfast. A vet with advanced gunnery skills(adding on average 25% more damage, and tackling skills that will over come anything you can through at them on a two week old character in a frigate - even if the vet was flying a frigate fitted the same as yours...you would lose - unless the vet just plain sucks).
Originally posted by Teala
Know what I find so funny is that most good PvP corps won't even consider you for their corp unless you have PVP experience and 30+ mil SP. Sure a few might take on someone with 10-20 mil SP, but not many. Go read the recruitment boards over at EVE Online.
As for the 20+ or 30+ mil points required to join a corporation. I think you will find it's not about the number of skill points they've got. It's more about how much the pilot is dedicated. Because you don't want to take a newbie in, spend time and ISK training them, only to have them leave the game a few weeks later. Plus it's also an anti spy device since most people aren't willing to pay for a new account, just to go and spy on somebody.
You people act as if we're asking CCP to just give new players 10 mil SP. It would still take upwards of a few months to earn 10 mil SP, it would not happen over night.
I'm sure you're already aware of this, but you're just wasting your time responding to these people. The only "facts" they care about are the ones they make up, not the ones that actually exist. They will keep insisting that skill points don't really matter until the earth explodes, no matter how thoroughly you explain to them how they're wrong.
So, I am a bit on the fence on this one, but one thing that seems to come up repeatedly is SP requirements to join corps and it seems like that is really not relevent. I say this because, if you introduce a mechanic that gives newer players, possibly spies (as mentioned previously) more SP faster, SP requirements will revise upward accordingly. So using corp SP requirements a sa justification, or on some level "proof" of something, seems a bit of a red herring.
I wouldn't mind new players getting more SP early on, but I can also understand a hesitence to devalue the perceived investment that "vet" players have made in developing their characters. Besides that, what problem does this solution solve that existing mechanics don't already? There is a character Bazaar and new players can pretty much order up any amount of SP they would like. Perhaps that system can be tweaked a bit. Naturally, this implies a player is willing to invest in a higher SP character and they really should learn to play the game at lower SP before making such a move anyhow
As I said, I'm a bit on the fence. I don't think the "missioning" solution is good at all as it is too narrow in scope of activity, but I certainly don't mind the idea of faster skilling for newer players. I'd be more interested in how existing mechanics can be leveraged to accomodate those new players versus designing a new system though.
One issue I see, that is contradictory to some of your other threads; Wouldn't this make it easier for bots to get new toons up to speed quicker and therefore reduce the impact that any character banning might introduce. This concept works against your other stated goals so, when thinking about how to help the new player, there has to be a lot of consideration on how to prevent exploitation of the mechanic.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have just brought three of my friends to eve and the biggest problem to them is a lack of skills, while I have been playing for 5-6 years .
2-3 months to just get them into level 4 missions and atleast a couple of months more to prepare them for pvp more so If I want them to join me in recons/t3 with good suport skills.
Why should they haveto wait 6 months to join me in the places I want to go even with level 5 implants it is still alot of months.
Yes they could buy chars on the forum but a 20-30million sp char bought with gtc's would cost about 10b =$460 in gtc's.
Not a reasonable idea
Why not bring in the sidekick/mentor system where you can sponsor your friends boost there skills etc.
these people are not idiots they play muds and have spent time learning about eve.
but the time lag to join me in fun is not fun.
i don't know the right solution to all this, maybe the veterans are the ones who could "gift" sp to new people a percentage pool based on there own skill level.
1) You can be completely "viable" in PVP within months. The trick here is to change it from equal to viable, which is of course highly subjective and often means "You can tackle in group combat
Thats a job you might get on your first day of pvp. If you go out and fly with vattlecruiser fleets in with racial frigate 1
A weeks worth of training and grinding isk will let you do all sorts of shenanigans with a tech 1 frigate
Couple of months will have you looking pretty good in that frigate or you will be ok in a cruiser.
2) PVP isn't 1 vs 1 so who cares? Purely diversionary, it is essentially conceding the point but saying it doesn't matter
Its tough being a new player with less than 6 months training Especially since they dont know much about the game rules. But once you are competent at flying any ship (SP and playerskill) It becomes more an issue of using the right ship for the job and picking your battles.
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
No they dont add up exponetionally.. They are tiny and often irrelevant in combat. And most of that can be circumvented and even improved upon by using less cost effective modules. like meta 4 or faction over tech 2
Sure older players can do that too but that just made their skill point advantage even less relevant
4) "Look at killboard, noobs can beat vets." Again, changes the question. Sure you CAN beat a vet caught offgaurd or with a bad fitting or who just plain sucks, but that is the exception. It means you overcame the massive disadvantage you have and won. Who wants to constantly play without all their chess pieces though?
Vets do that every time they log on.. They have millions of chess pieces on other boards but the same or less than you on the relevant board. Look at it like having 20 level 85 characters on one account in WoW.. You can only play one at a time and most of them are even on another server. And the one they chose to play that day might even be lower level that you.
You are looking at it a bit too rigidly.. Point is you should always take the enemy by surprize or numbers or other advantages... But your argument looks false to me because it looks like you are asking for a 1v1 duel situation..
5) "Noobs wouldn't be able to handle the good ships yet, it is for their own benefit it takes years to train." To me this is the most laughable. You can probably know everything there is to know within 3 months. Why should it take 2-3 years of artificial monthly payments to prove it?
Noobs can learn some things fast.. but Im still discovering new ways to do things after more than 5 years.. New areas I havent bothered with in the past. Stuff that Ive trained without using for years only to figure out I didnt like it.
some of the best and most versatile ships ingame are almost custom made for new players. I say almost because I dont recall any dev post to that effect.. But they are insanly fast to train for.. and you can do most things the tech 2 ships can and sometimes better.They cost a lot though.. Oh and you say "good ships" well bigger isnt better..They are different and sure you do want them.. but you honestly have a hell of a lot more fun in smaller ships. Most vets fly frigates or cruisers from time to time. Especially since solo battleships or capitals are sitting ducks for ganks.
The real discussion is vets will never willingly give up their advantage. They feel they've earned a built in advantage and DONT want an even playing field with new players EVER. EVE is a game for vets. Noobs need to know that.
well Ok Ill bite on this one to complete the set.. Sure lets do away with skill training and just have every one have max skills. And then the progression is based on how much isk you have. You can buy that and then you sit around asking for endgame.. err what?
And EVE isnt just for vets.. It takes a good while to get into though.
1) You can be completely "viable" in PVP within months. The trick here is to change it from equal to viable, which is of course highly subjective and often means "You can tackle in group combat
Thats a job you might get on your first day of pvp. If you go out and fly with vattlecruiser fleets in with racial frigate 1
A weeks worth of training and grinding isk will let you do all sorts of shenanigans with a tech 1 frigate
Couple of months will have you looking pretty good in that frigate or you will be ok in a cruiser.
2) PVP isn't 1 vs 1 so who cares? Purely diversionary, it is essentially conceding the point but saying it doesn't matter
Its tough being a new player with less than 6 months training Especially since they dont know much about the game rules. But once you are competent at flying any ship (SP and playerskill) It becomes more an issue of using the right ship for the job and picking your battles.
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
No they dont add up exponetionally.. They are tiny and often irrelevant in combat. And most of that can be circumvented and even improved upon by using less cost effective modules. like meta 4 or faction over tech 2
Sure older players can do that too but that just made their skill point advantage even less relevant
4) "Look at killboard, noobs can beat vets." Again, changes the question. Sure you CAN beat a vet caught offgaurd or with a bad fitting or who just plain sucks, but that is the exception. It means you overcame the massive disadvantage you have and won. Who wants to constantly play without all their chess pieces though?
Vets do that every time they log on.. They have millions of chess pieces on other boards but the same or less than you on the relevant board. Look at it like having 20 level 85 characters on one account in WoW.. You can only play one at a time and most of them are even on another server. And the one they chose to play that day might even be lower level that you.
You are looking at it a bit too rigidly.. Point is you should always take the enemy by surprize or numbers or other advantages... But your argument looks false to me because it looks like you are asking for a 1v1 duel situation..
5) "Noobs wouldn't be able to handle the good ships yet, it is for their own benefit it takes years to train." To me this is the most laughable. You can probably know everything there is to know within 3 months. Why should it take 2-3 years of artificial monthly payments to prove it?
Noobs can learn some things fast.. but Im still discovering new ways to do things after more than 5 years.. New areas I havent bothered with in the past. Stuff that Ive trained without using for years only to figure out I didnt like it.
some of the best and most versatile ships ingame are almost custom made for new players. I say almost because I dont recall any dev post to that effect.. But they are insanly fast to train for.. and you can do most things the tech 2 ships can and sometimes better.They cost a lot though.. Oh and you say "good ships" well bigger isnt better..They are different and sure you do want them.. but you honestly have a hell of a lot more fun in smaller ships. Most vets fly frigates or cruisers from time to time. Especially since solo battleships or capitals are sitting ducks for ganks.
The real discussion is vets will never willingly give up their advantage. They feel they've earned a built in advantage and DONT want an even playing field with new players EVER. EVE is a game for vets. Noobs need to know that.
well Ok Ill bite on this one to complete the set.. Sure lets do away with skill training and just have every one have max skills. And then the progression is based on how much isk you have. You can buy that and then you sit around asking for endgame.. err what?
And EVE isnt just for vets.. It takes a good while to get into though.
You're poll is faulty. By adding a sentence after the yes or no answer you in effect put words in peoples mouths. Let them say yes or no and give their own reasons. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone else has already stated that and if so I add my voice to theirs.
People who think they should be able to just jump into a battleship and outfit it with the best mods in order to compete in pvp in Eve don't understand Eve at all. Anyone can participate in pvp in Eve, whether they just started or not. Why? Because Eve in general does not have one on one style of pvp. It's very much group oriented and anyone, no matter thier skill level, can contribute to a group. If you want to participate in pvp then join a pvp corp and participate, nobody will stop you. There are no limits to fleet size, so there's no reason a corp might tell you that you can't join their fleet, not even using an excuse such as a lack of skill points.
Reading comprehension...? Who said anything about a new player being able to just jump right into a BS anywhere in this thread?
I was exaggerating your point, sue me. The arguments are all about the same thing, and the point has been argued hundreds if not thousands of times before, being able to compete with veteran players as quickly as possible. I guess you can argue the point as much as you like as long as you recognize that your arguments won't budge CCP so much as an inch, nor change the minds of much of the community.
I have just brought three of my friends to eve and the biggest problem to them is a lack of skills, while I have been playing for 5-6 years .
2-3 months to just get them into level 4 missions and atleast a couple of months more to prepare them for pvp more so If I want them to join me in recons/t3 with good suport skills.
Why should they haveto wait 6 months to join me in the places I want to go even with level 5 implants it is still alot of months.
You could jump in a frigate and go out and have fun with them from day one.. See the 2-3 months to get to level 4 missions.. Why? Is mission running why they joined you in EVE?
Yeah ok day one pvp isnt what it used to be since there are no skill allocation at character creation anymore as I understand it.. But you could have a nasty little frigate fleet in a week or so.
Its not like they should need money from missions.. I mean you could front the bill untill they start earning on their own
Ouch, this post has so many inaccuracies I just have to respond
EVE combat, like most MMORPG's, is still lock target, and hit a couple of buttons. EVE combat is not that difficult. Just like any game a player needs to learn how and when to use the right tools their character has in order to be victorious. So because EVE is like most MMORPG's in regards to combat, and it is, (trust me...there is no real "player skill" envolved like you might find in an FPS), what it boils down to in EVE in 1 vs 1 combat is skills trained and ship - and timing.
If this is how you PVP, then you are failing. Depending on the ship you have to make sure you are at the proper range, check your transversal vs your opponent, make sure you've loaded the proper ammo vs his potential weaknesses, remembered to turn on the proper modules and manage your capacitor by turning them on and off (in the case of warp drives and active shield/armor repairers) if your ship is not cap stable. It might not be twitch combat like a FPS, but there is most certainly skill to doing it properly.
And BTW, this is the most important thing perhaps, if you find yourself fighting 1 v 1 in any situation besides a duel or tournament, you're doing it wrong. (though some skilled players take great pleasure in trying to overcome long odds and fight 1 vs many)
Nobody ever said that player vs player doesn't take some knowledge, it does in any MMORPG, but it doesn't take months to learn it. I was merely poiting out the fact that yes, it is a matter of simply locking on a target, then pushing a couple of buttons. Sure there are a couple steps I left out, but it is still lock target, and push a couple of buttons combat. I'm not going to go into full PvP guide detail.
Anyone on this board that is advocating that a t1 frigate can beat a t2 fitted BC is blowing smoke up your nether regions - it isn't going to happen. The differences in EHP and DPS is too great. Add to that that the BC, if properly fitted has warp disruptors, webifiers, and other t2 fittings - the little frigate will go pop in just a matter of seconds.
However it certainly doesn't take more than 3 months to get into a T1 fitted BC, and if you bring along a friend in a T1 fitted Blackbird (or another T1 BC) the two of you are going to be racking up a victory on the kill boards.
Yep, that works fine for groups if they are decent PvP's. It's like any game, the more numbers you have on your side the better your chances are. But I can tell you this. In EVE, a vet with the proper skills flying a t2 fitted BS, with the proper rigs and fittings, will devour, a group of noob EVE pilots (say three or four flying frigs)that have only been in the game a month. You can profess that 4 such noobs would never lose and I will laugh at you. I have witnessed just such a thing repeatedly myself. The BS pilot was popping them so fast it was like taking a needle to a balloon.
It's like a level 50 Hunter trying to beat a level 85 Hunter. It is never going to happen.
But it would be like two level 50 Hunters beating a level 85 hunter, which while that doesn't happen in a typical theme park MMO, it happens all the time in EVE.
Not likely. Level 50 is still level 50 and level 85 is still level 85, nothing can change that.
BTW to go from t1 type ships to t2 takes on average 6+ months. That is 6 months of you spending $14.99 a month to be able to just bearly get into a ship capable of participating in the "edge" of the upper end of the PvP game.
You can easily get into T2 fit T2 Frigates in 6 months, and this Merc Corp full of 40M+ SP pilots is more than willing to take you under their wing. (they have a 95% Kill efficiency). I could have easily found you a dozen more good corps.
Sure I can get into a t2 BC in 6 months. Can I fly it with the proper skills to back it up. Not likely! LOL! It would be a total waste of ISK for a noob pilot to get into a t2 without the proper skills to back it up. You know it and I know it. For a vet encountering such a player it is like taking candy from a baby, in fact you see post about such things happening all the time and they are jokingabout it. Don't fly what you cannot replace and never fly what you are not skilled at to pilot.
It takes a good solid year, that is 12 months of subscriptions, before you can train to fly that t2 BS(battleship) or Covert OP's with the right skills sets that will allow you to survive in the type of player vs player encounters you will find yourself getting involved with in the game of EVE.
When I first started playing EVE, in 4 months I was in 0.0 flying a T2 fitted bomber in a Stealth corp in by month 6 I was in a T1 fitted Raven blasting POS's in a 75 ship fleet during the BOB Wars. T2 fitted BS came later, but even now my Alliance flies far more OPS with smaller ships reserving the T2 BS's for the Alpha fleet encounters which are not as common as you state they are.
LOL That must have been a few years back, because you mentioned BOB Wars. So we're talking a totally different time and the game has changed. Vets were more likely to take on a 5mil SP noob. Unlike today.
Unlike most MMORPG's, where players progress at their own speed, EVE puts contraints on new players that will always favor the veteran player. All this thread was suggestiing was a means for a new player to "get up to speed" in a "shorter span" of time. Waiting 6 months, to a year to become viable is what drives many players away.
I'll grant you this, some players will not wait 6 months to a year to become pretty competitive, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing, they might not be "right" for EVE. But as I posted earlier, I'm open to methods to get players into decently fitted smaller ships more quickly, as it probably will be beneficial to get more people into the game.
Allowing new players to catch up by earning SP via missions is a good alternative that might help keep new players in the game long enough that they will have the opportunity to learn the depth of the game and join a good corp. As it is now(unlike 4 or 5 years ago when corps would take a 5mil specced character) unless you have lots of PvP experience, you'll never have the opportunity as a newer player to get into a good or better than average PvP corp because they are looking for people with 30+ mil SP. Many won't even consider you if you are not atleast that high or better.
This is true, many corps want 30-40M + SP's to get in. Show up on their door step with 15M SP's and good killboard stats (which can be gained in several ways) and they'll end up taking you. But I do disagree, earning SP's via missions is not the way to go, mission running is not one of EVE's finer game mechanics (though I personally enjoyed grinding ISK out on them for a time) and I'd prefer something more like they have now, just extend the accelerated SP rate for a longer time than they currently do, and perhaps increase the rate more because I agree, EVE is a bit more fun once you get up to at least the Battlecruiser class.
So at last we agree that it is too slow for new players to come into their own and even you admit you'd like to see the progression for new players sped up. Thanks!
If you think catching up is bad now, think what it'll be like in a few more years.
It will be exactly the same as it is today. The same ships that were useful 2 years ago will be the same ships that are useful tomorrow, EVE doesn't build in planned obsolesence, so in a few more years, a pilot with 15M SP's (about a year's worth of training) will be just as useful as he is today. Sure, there will a few corps that might ask for 50M SP's to join, but the smarter ones won't limit themselves because they know some terrific PVP pilots will be lost by such artificial and unnecessary restrictions.
Not true. The game is constantly changing and the longer players play the further the gap grows between a new player and vet player. Most vets now have most essential skills to 5. Some have advanced skills to 5. In a couple of more years, most will have added more advanced skills to their list adding more bonus to damage, EHP, cap control, powergrid output, e-war abilities, tackling skills, any number of skills that will leave a new player in the dirt.
You're poll is faulty. By adding a sentence after the yes or no answer you in effect put words in peoples mouths. Let them say yes or no and give their own reasons. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone else has already stated that and if so I add my voice to theirs.
People who think they should be able to just jump into a battleship and outfit it with the best mods in order to compete in pvp in Eve don't understand Eve at all. Anyone can participate in pvp in Eve, whether they just started or not. Why? Because Eve in general does not have one on one style of pvp. It's very much group oriented and anyone, no matter thier skill level, can contribute to a group. If you want to participate in pvp then join a pvp corp and participate, nobody will stop you. There are no limits to fleet size, so there's no reason a corp might tell you that you can't join their fleet, not even using an excuse such as a lack of skill points.
Reading comprehension...? Who said anything about a new player being able to just jump right into a BS anywhere in this thread?
I was exaggerating your point, sue me. The arguments are all about the same thing, and the point has been argued hundreds if not thousands of times before, being able to compete with veteran players as quickly as possible. I guess you can argue the point as much as you like as long as you recognize that your arguments won't budge CCP so much as an inch, nor change the minds of much of the community.
No you are right...why should new players even care to give the game a shot. With attitudes like yours they have all ready lost $14.99 a month because you as a vet think new players are not worth CCP givng them some incentive to stick around. That is why in my next blog I will warn new players to not waste their time and effort and money on a game that is not forgiving...in fact, of all the games currently on the market EVE is the least noob friendly game. I have said it in the past and I'll say it again, and repeatedly.
Originally posted by Teala The game is constantly changing and the longer players play the further the gap grows between a new player and vet player.
Just wanted to remind you of the fall of ATLAS, IT and now NC to player alliances and players that is alot fresher.
This due to time and people are not hungry anymore.
That /wear and tear/ closes the gap more than you seem to realise.
To quote something hitting in that youtube video of Vuk Lau, "At least we beat ATLAS record for shortest defence." This from the same coalition that sold the same fate to IT less than 6 months ago.
Originally posted by Teala The game is constantly changing and the longer players play the further the gap grows between a new player and vet player.
Just wanted to remind you of the fall of ATLAS, IT and now NC to player alliances and players that is alot fresher.
This due to time and people are not hungry anymore.
That /wear and tear/ closes the gap more than you seem to realise.
To quote something hitting in that youtube video of Vuk Lau, "At least we beat ATLAS record for shortest defence." This from the same coalition that sold the same fate to IT less than 6 months ago.
NC barely put up a fight and the russians rmt and botted their way to all those super caps. I dont like either side in the fight on this one and watched from the sidelines.
(errh... NC (MM) both sold scaps to PL and let them use NC space to get them.
NC fleets have been lackluster with participants, they stood aside watching R.A.G.E. fall. And uhm people did not bother to log in the supercaps that they had to met up with the PL fleets.
The same thing is said about RMT and NC aswell...)
That is a paranthesis.
The point was, people gets weary of the game and that makes things like this happen. Alliances leadership been logged for months in some cases. You got alpha fleets with <50 participants, CTA canceled after hours of formup.
This wear already closes the gap more than a possibility to grind SP does.
Let's see what the average non-EVE player thinks about this ideal. I added a poll. Personally, I as a veteran, would like to see this added to the game. Maybe then I could get more people to try it! I only recently talked my roomie into trying it. She is liking it, but hates that she is so far behind the average veteran player. She wishes she had some other way, other than the current means of learning skills so she can atleast get into the game and be more viable sooner...as it is now, like she said, "It'll take months before I can even get enough skills and SP to be of much use to anyone."
So we discussed how a player might be able to "catch up" in a fashion that is not overbearing, yet adds a reasonable means for a new player to get up to speed. This was the ideal we came up with and I personally like the ideal.
I agree with you on this, but there are harsher examples out there of games which have a bigger gap with veterans and new players, such as; Asherons Call, UO, EQ. I like your idea though it can even the playing field considerably for new players.
Originally posted by Teala The game is constantly changing and the longer players play the further the gap grows between a new player and vet player.
Just wanted to remind you of the fall of ATLAS, IT and now NC to player alliances and players that is alot fresher.
This due to time and people are not hungry anymore.
That /wear and tear/ closes the gap more than you seem to realise.
To quote something hitting in that youtube video of Vuk Lau, "At least we beat ATLAS record for shortest defence." This from the same coalition that sold the same fate to IT less than 6 months ago.
NC barely put up a fight and the russians rmt and botted their way to all those super caps. I dont like either side in the fight on this one and watched from the sidelines.
(errh... NC (MM) both sold scaps to PL and let them use NC space to get them.
NC fleets have been lackluster with participants, they stood aside watching R.A.G.E. fall. And uhm people did not bother to log in the supercaps that they had to met up with the PL fleets.
The same thing is said about RMT and NC aswell...)
That is a paranthesis.
The point was, people gets weary of the game and that makes things like this happen. Alliances leadership been logged for months in some cases. You got alpha fleets with <50 participants, CTA canceled after hours of formup.
This wear already closes the gap more than a possibility to grind SP does.
Yes NC partcipated in RMT as well. Leadership was more the issue I believe than being space weary but could have been that as well.
Oh, I did not mean to say that one thing was bigger than the other that made NC collapse. I just had this as an example, those three collapses this last year in the life of EVE, one of the reasons being wear and tear and that this (repeating myself I know) closes the gap aswell.
You're poll is faulty. By adding a sentence after the yes or no answer you in effect put words in peoples mouths. Let them say yes or no and give their own reasons. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone else has already stated that and if so I add my voice to theirs.
People who think they should be able to just jump into a battleship and outfit it with the best mods in order to compete in pvp in Eve don't understand Eve at all. Anyone can participate in pvp in Eve, whether they just started or not. Why? Because Eve in general does not have one on one style of pvp. It's very much group oriented and anyone, no matter thier skill level, can contribute to a group. If you want to participate in pvp then join a pvp corp and participate, nobody will stop you. There are no limits to fleet size, so there's no reason a corp might tell you that you can't join their fleet, not even using an excuse such as a lack of skill points.
Reading comprehension...? Who said anything about a new player being able to just jump right into a BS anywhere in this thread?
I was exaggerating your point, sue me. The arguments are all about the same thing, and the point has been argued hundreds if not thousands of times before, being able to compete with veteran players as quickly as possible. I guess you can argue the point as much as you like as long as you recognize that your arguments won't budge CCP so much as an inch, nor change the minds of much of the community.
No you are right...why should new players even care to give the game a shot. With attitudes like yours they have all ready lost $14.99 a month because you as a vet think new players are not worth CCP givng them some incentive to stick around. That is why in my next blog I will warn new players to not waste their time and effort and money on a game that is not forgiving...in fact, of all the games currently on the market EVE is the least noob friendly game. I have said it in the past and I'll say it again, and repeatedly.
People have been saying that about EVE since EVE was launched. But yet those who know what they are getting into, do some research and put forth both effort and thought are rewarded. While those who want to catch up and thats all they are concerned with run away blaming the vets. Heres a fact.....you can never ever catch some random number in a game that uses time as a means of progression. Again let me say it...Never. So you accelerate gain...to what? for how long? how much? So scream from your blog all you like but it will change nothing due to the game design that exists.
Also just because you hand a noob a BC with all the trimmings does not mean they know how to use it properly. Kinda like giving a toddler a car and saying...here son have fun in Nascar!
Hehehe...once again let me repeat this.
NOBODY IS SAYING GIVE ANYONE ANYTHING. THEY WOULD STILL HAVE TO EARN IT OVER TIME - JUST LESS TIME, BUT IT WOULD STILL TAKE TIME!
Sheesh...some of you think some of us are advocating just giving a new player 10 mil SP. We never said that and that would not work. What we're proposing is allowing for a player that has less than 10mil SP to gain SP a little faster than it is now so that they can "get up to speed" faster. It is not going to damage the game in the least - in fact we have provided good arguments that say just the opposite. It'll get players into skills faster that are more on a level that will allow them to go into null-sec quicker. Vet's are always saying that they wish more people would play in null-sec...well guess what, under the current system that is never going to happen. That is why 75%, or so(maybe it is 65%), of the player base never goes into low-sec of null-sec! Did you ever think of that.
as usual this debate has taken a turn for the worse. I will concede that I have a sp advantage if you concede that it isn't as big as most people think. I'm similiar in Malcanis case...I don't have any weapon spec's to V. However, I do have all of the named to V and most of the spec's to IV.
Is it an advantage, yes. However...I just logged out..and I was in a megathron. Let's see how the breakdown looks..
Corp management...none
Drones.....One racial to IV, Durability to IV, Combat Drone Ops to V Navigation V, Sharpshooting to V, Interfacing to V, Electronic Warfare to IV, Drone skill to V, and Scout Drone Op to V...for a total of...3,494,825 sp used for x5 med T2 drones with applicable support skills.
Electronics...Electronics to V, I assume you would think Electronic Upgrades..so that's a V, Long Range Targeting to V, Multitasking to III, Prop Jamming to V..i guess, Signature Analysis to V, Targeting to V..that's 2,584,000
Engineering...Engineering to V, Energy Emissions Systems(assuming i had a neut/nos fitted) to V, Energy Grid Updates to V, Energy Management to V, Energy Systems Ops to V, you arent getting any more Engineering as it would be armor fitted...so that's...2,304,000
Gunnery...Advanced Weapon Upgrades to V, Controlled Bursts to V, Gunnery to V, for sake of normalcy..Large Blasters spec to IV, Large Hybrid to V, i will even give you med hybrid/blaster spec to IV, as it's needed...motion prediction to V, rapid firing to V, Sharpshooter to V, oh ofc I would have needed small hybrid to V, and small blaster spec to IV as well, Surgical Strike to V, Trajectory Analysis to V, and Weapon Upgrades to V....for a total of... 13,056,000.
Industry...none
Leadership?..I will go with nothing b/c this is fantasy land 1 vs 1 right?
Mechanic.....Armor Rigging to IV, EM/Therm/Kin/Exp Comps to V, Hull Upgrades to V, Mechanic to V, Repair Systems to V so that's 3,840,000.
Missile Launcher Ops..no missiles on this mega.
Navigation..Acceleration Control to V, , Evasive Maneuvering to V, you only get Afterburner to V or High Speed Man to V...let's say it was fitted with a MWD..so HSD manuevering to V, Warp Drive Ops to V, Navigation to V..so that's 3,328,000.
Science...none...
Spaceship Command...Gallente Frig/Cruiser/Battleship to V...3,840,000
Trade...none...
so let's put this together...that's 32,446, 825 sp.....out of 113 mil. This character is PvP specc'd. I guess you are saying that b/c I have 32+ mil sp in my megathron I am an uberwtfbbqpwn mobile....is that right? Oh yea..if you bring a falcon, friends, damps, bubbles...whatever...you are now at an advantage. So really, it's me..the old crusty vet that should be complaining. I have invested almost 115mil sp in PvP skills...why should a newb be able to kill invincible me? Because that's what CCP WANTS.
I can only focus those 32 mil sp in that mega...my main has just as many..and he isn't really specc'd for PvP..so he would be even a better analogy. I guess there is no convincing people. I have been brought down more times than I can remember b/c I didn't see his friends in local, I wasn't paying attention, they got the drop on me...etc.
However according to you, this character CANT lose. I wish that were the case..but sadly it isn't. I think I'm going to start a campaign to SLOW the sp progression down. I guess us vets are so old, hateful and stingy we are only in it for ourselves. Listening to these rants tells me that you either never played EvE, are a troll, played and left because you couldn't handle the "disparity" anymore or just got burned out.
That's okay. Some of us are enjoying it still. I like helping my new guys. I know when I'm not online, they can hold their own and don't need me or an admin to let them defend themselves.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
as usual this debate has taken a turn for the worse. I will concede that I have a sp advantage if you concede that it isn't as big as most people think. I'm similiar in Malcanis case...I don't have any weapon spec's to V. However, I do have all of the named to V and most of the spec's to IV.
Is it an advantage, yes. However...I just logged out..and I was in a megathron. Let's see how the breakdown looks..
Corp management...none
Drones.....One racial to IV, Durability to IV, Combat Drone Ops to V Navigation V, Sharpshooting to V, Interfacing to V, Electronic Warfare to IV, Drone skill to V, and Scout Drone Op to V...for a total of...3,494,825 sp used for x5 med T2 drones with applicable support skills.
Electronics...Electronics to V, I assume you would think Electronic Upgrades..so that's a V, Long Range Targeting to V, Multitasking to III, Prop Jamming to V..i guess, Signature Analysis to V, Targeting to V..that's 2,584,000
Engineering...Engineering to V, Energy Emissions Systems(assuming i had a neut/nos fitted) to V, Energy Grid Updates to V, Energy Management to V, Energy Systems Ops to V, you arent getting any more Engineering as it would be armor fitted...so that's...2,304,000
Gunnery...Advanced Weapon Upgrades to V, Controlled Bursts to V, Gunnery to V, for sake of normalcy..Large Blasters spec to V, Large Hybrid to V, i will even give you med hybrid/blaster spec to IV, as it's needed...motion prediction to V, rapid firing to V, Sharpshooter to V, oh ofc I would have needed small hybrid to V, and small blaster spec to IV as well, Surgical Strike to V, Trajectory Analysis to V, and Weapon Upgrades to V....for a total of... 13,056,000.
Industry...none
Leadership?..I will go with nothing b/c this is fantasy land 1 vs 1 right?
Mechanic.....Armor Rigging to IV, EM/Therm/Kin/Exp Comps to V, Hull Upgrades to V, Mechanic to V, Repair Systems to V so that's 3,840,000.
Missile Launcher Ops..no missiles on this mega.
Navigation..Acceleration Control to V, , Evasive Maneuvering to V, you only get Afterburner to V or High Speed Man to V...let's say it was fitted with a MWD..so HSD manuevering to V, Warp Drive Ops to V, Navigation to V..so that's 3,328,000.
Science...none...
Spaceship Command...Gallente Frig/Cruiser/Battleship to V...3,840,000
Trade...none...
so let's put this together...that's 32,446, 825 sp.....out of 113 mil. This character is PvP specc'd. I guess you are saying that b/c I have 32+ mil sp in my megathron I am an uberwtfbbqpwn mobile....is that right? Oh yea..if you bring a falcon, friends, damps, bubbles...whatever...you are now at an advantage. So really, it's me..the old crusty vet that should be complaining. I have invested almost 115mil sp in PvP skills...why should a newb be able to kill invincible me? Because that's what CCP WANTS.
I can only focus those 32 mil sp in that mega...my main has just as many..and he isn't really specc'd for PvP..so he would be even a better analogy. I guess there is no convincing people. I have been brought down more times than I can remember b/c I didn't see his friends in local, I wasn't paying attention, they got the drop on me...etc.
However according to you, this character CANT lose. I wish that were the case..but sadly it isn't. I think I'm going to start a campaign to SLOW the sp progression down. I guess us vets are so old, hateful and stingy we are only in it for ourselves. Listening to these rants tells me that you either never played EvE, are a troll, played and left because you couldn't handle the "disparity" anymore or just got burned out.
That's okay. Some of us are enjoying it still. I like helping my new guys. I know when I'm not online, they can hold their own and don't need me or an admin to let them defend themselves.
You're argument doesn't work because what you're talking about is 3 vs 1, or 4 vs 1, or 5 vs 1 - on and on...and I bet those people you are up against are not noobs either. I bet none of them have less than 10mil SP. You are trying to win your argument by playing on the ideal that this is how all combat in EVE is. It is not(well...then again yes it is...many enocunters are like this...gangs of players vs 1), then again there are some small battles and then there are the fleet battles. A new player would have a better chance at performing during one of the latter encounters if they had the right skills. Any player encountering a group of players vs 1 would be hard pressed to win. That is just logic. Then again...depends on the skills and the level of those skills of the players you encounter. A brand new group of players(say 4) with less than 200k SP flying frigates will be crushed by a vet in a well fitted destroyer and up.
::sigh:: Tired of this debate. I given my opinion and I think it is the correct one. I think new players to EVE would be more likely to stick around if they had more incentive to do so. As it is now...we're lucky if they make it past their 15 day trial.
Comments
Weird, how you consider a 2 year player a vet. And here I was thinking I was just playing to have fun. Guess I'm involved in some conspiracy theory I knew nothing of.
No, a 2 year player still has massive disadvantages over a 7 year vet for instance.
But I think it very fun you still consider yourself a noob after 2 years. Kind of true I guess, but pretty much sums it up doesn't it???
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
No one is giving anyone anything. Player would still have to earn it...it just wouldn't take a year or "real" time. It might take half-that, maybe a little less, but it would still take time. The SP earn via missions is barely a scrape in in the bucket. I've explained what allowing a new player to do this would benefit the player.
Now how about the game.
So a new player eventually caps that 10 mil SP. They can fly a decently armed and fitted ship. 10 mil will not put them in but maybe 1 ship to where they can fly it with rigs, t2 fittings and the skills to back it up. They have done missions over the last few months and maybe did some PvP. They've tasted Empire space for long enough. He/she joins a corp "now" that is willing to even look at a 10 mil SP pilot. They teach them the ropes of PvP in low-sec and null sec. This person had gone Covert-Ops and can fly a Manticore with teeth. Long range stealth bomber/torpedo boat. That is something that has some value to a corp. They could just as well as specialized in tackling, interdiction, sniping, e-war, logistics support, the list goes on and on. The new person will feel like a better fit for a veteran group and not as likely to turn the person down when they ask to join if they can do it and do it well, any of the things I just mentioned.
To many corps these days would not even give a 10 mil SP character a second glance unless they themselves are a total noob corp.
What if the person decides to go another route...say miner. This would allow them to bring a miner to your corp that is capable of doing it all. Refining, gas cloud harvvesting, ice mining, and deep core - using all the best with maxed skills! Hell they might even be able to squeeze in enough training post 10mil in a couple of months to fly an Orca with mining foreman links and run mining ops for you. The difference is, it will not have taken them a year or more to get there. They could do it in maybe 6 months. There is value to any corp with this person. A noob miner in low-sex or null-sec is fodder for a roaming band of NPC roid rats let alone a PC rat. It takes months to train up to be able to loadout a hulk that can withstand a first strike and still bug out, if he doesn't have anyone readily available to watch his/her back.
I am a vet player and I approve of this. I think this would add incentive for new players to stick around for more than their fifteen day trial, or sign on for one month than bail when they realize how far actually behind the ball they really are, and their next skill requires 7 days to train and they have 5 left in their first month. How many are going to wait for that seven days "in real" time just to be able to train in the advanced version of that skill that has a x6 or x8 multiplier and they are looking at another 2 months of training to get to the level your average vet pilot is at. How come none of you that are arguing against this mention this in your argument? Don't tell me that the more SP doesn't matter, because it does, especially when a skill point sometimes adds 20% damage per skill level(of yeah...what can produce this kind of damage output with advanced training per skill level? Answer: Drone Interfacing Though most skills advance you by only 5% per skill level learned, nevertheless, 5x5 is 25, that means you are producing 25% more(as a veteran player and in most instances more since you have more than one advanced skill trained to atleast 4 or 5 that adds damage to your weapons) than a noob with say only gunnery to 4 and motion prediction to 3. You vets that say that SP doesn't matter are not telling the complete truth. You're glossing over it. That is why most of your better PvP corps will not even consider a noob even with 5-10 mil SP!
10 mil SP being "eraned", "over a period of time"(shorter than the year plus it takes now), will not break this game. It will not hamper null-sec, or low-sec, or even high-sec space. It will however in my opinion help bring new players to the game and if we're really lucky "more" will stay and keep playing; and that is a win for everyone.
It's not about catching up or options, it's about how you allocate the skill points you've got. I can take a new character and train them up into frigate within two weeks, and they would hold their own against a vet. I know this, because I've done it. Remember that when your character reaches level five you can't go any higher. You can't get any more out of the ship you've trained for, unless you use implants or boosters.
As for the 20+ or 30+ mil points required to join a corporation. I think you will find it's not about the number of skill points they've got. It's more about how much the pilot is dedicated. Because you don't want to take a newbie in, spend time and ISK training them, only to have them leave the game a few weeks later. Plus it's also an anti spy device since most people aren't willing to pay for a new account, just to go and spy on somebody.
I would agree the SP requirement isn't just based on the number alone. They want people who have been playing for a while and know what they are doing. Also, this allows a corporation to examine the player to see how and what they have done through their employment history. This way they can root out bad players, spies, pricks, and scammers.
If you give some Bonus then the requirement will just go up whatever the bonus amount is. Right now, you can know that SP corrolates to how long someone has been playing, not how long they have been grinding out NPC tasks.
Overall, if you don't have a different approach and mindset to how EVE is setup, it just isn't the game for you. It isn't like other recent MMO games at all, but perhaps that is why it is one that is continuing to grow and increase in population.
Yes, thanks. I'm aware of that fact.
I'm sure you're already aware of this, but you're just wasting your time responding to these people. The only "facts" they care about are the ones they make up, not the ones that actually exist. They will keep insisting that skill points don't really matter until the earth explodes, no matter how thoroughly you explain to them how they're wrong.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
So, I am a bit on the fence on this one, but one thing that seems to come up repeatedly is SP requirements to join corps and it seems like that is really not relevent. I say this because, if you introduce a mechanic that gives newer players, possibly spies (as mentioned previously) more SP faster, SP requirements will revise upward accordingly. So using corp SP requirements a sa justification, or on some level "proof" of something, seems a bit of a red herring.
I wouldn't mind new players getting more SP early on, but I can also understand a hesitence to devalue the perceived investment that "vet" players have made in developing their characters. Besides that, what problem does this solution solve that existing mechanics don't already? There is a character Bazaar and new players can pretty much order up any amount of SP they would like. Perhaps that system can be tweaked a bit. Naturally, this implies a player is willing to invest in a higher SP character and they really should learn to play the game at lower SP before making such a move anyhow
As I said, I'm a bit on the fence. I don't think the "missioning" solution is good at all as it is too narrow in scope of activity, but I certainly don't mind the idea of faster skilling for newer players. I'd be more interested in how existing mechanics can be leveraged to accomodate those new players versus designing a new system though.
One issue I see, that is contradictory to some of your other threads; Wouldn't this make it easier for bots to get new toons up to speed quicker and therefore reduce the impact that any character banning might introduce. This concept works against your other stated goals so, when thinking about how to help the new player, there has to be a lot of consideration on how to prevent exploitation of the mechanic.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have just brought three of my friends to eve and the biggest problem to them is a lack of skills, while I have been playing for 5-6 years .
2-3 months to just get them into level 4 missions and atleast a couple of months more to prepare them for pvp more so If I want them to join me in recons/t3 with good suport skills.
Why should they haveto wait 6 months to join me in the places I want to go even with level 5 implants it is still alot of months.
Yes they could buy chars on the forum but a 20-30million sp char bought with gtc's would cost about 10b =$460 in gtc's.
Not a reasonable idea
Why not bring in the sidekick/mentor system where you can sponsor your friends boost there skills etc.
these people are not idiots they play muds and have spent time learning about eve.
but the time lag to join me in fun is not fun.
i don't know the right solution to all this, maybe the veterans are the ones who could "gift" sp to new people a percentage pool based on there own skill level.
Oh, the irony.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I was exaggerating your point, sue me. The arguments are all about the same thing, and the point has been argued hundreds if not thousands of times before, being able to compete with veteran players as quickly as possible. I guess you can argue the point as much as you like as long as you recognize that your arguments won't budge CCP so much as an inch, nor change the minds of much of the community.
You could jump in a frigate and go out and have fun with them from day one.. See the 2-3 months to get to level 4 missions.. Why? Is mission running why they joined you in EVE?
Yeah ok day one pvp isnt what it used to be since there are no skill allocation at character creation anymore as I understand it.. But you could have a nasty little frigate fleet in a week or so.
Its not like they should need money from missions.. I mean you could front the bill untill they start earning on their own
I voted no.
Not because I care for any kind of veterans, I voted no because I am pretty tired of games that gives 23(24)/7 players advantage level/skillvise.
Sure you will have more options for ships if you make alot of ISK.
With EVE I don't have to compete with players that have nothing else to do besides play a game in the same way as let's say [whatever].
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
No you are right...why should new players even care to give the game a shot. With attitudes like yours they have all ready lost $14.99 a month because you as a vet think new players are not worth CCP givng them some incentive to stick around. That is why in my next blog I will warn new players to not waste their time and effort and money on a game that is not forgiving...in fact, of all the games currently on the market EVE is the least noob friendly game. I have said it in the past and I'll say it again, and repeatedly.
Just wanted to remind you of the fall of ATLAS, IT and now NC to player alliances and players that is alot fresher.
This due to time and people are not hungry anymore.
That /wear and tear/ closes the gap more than you seem to realise.
To quote something hitting in that youtube video of Vuk Lau, "At least we beat ATLAS record for shortest defence." This from the same coalition that sold the same fate to IT less than 6 months ago.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
(errh... NC (MM) both sold scaps to PL and let them use NC space to get them.
NC fleets have been lackluster with participants, they stood aside watching R.A.G.E. fall. And uhm people did not bother to log in the supercaps that they had to met up with the PL fleets.
The same thing is said about RMT and NC aswell...)
That is a paranthesis.
The point was, people gets weary of the game and that makes things like this happen. Alliances leadership been logged for months in some cases. You got alpha fleets with <50 participants, CTA canceled after hours of formup.
This wear already closes the gap more than a possibility to grind SP does.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Hey guys I've cleaned up this thread up to this point. Let's refrain from any and all baiting and personal arguments. Thanks.
I agree with you on this, but there are harsher examples out there of games which have a bigger gap with veterans and new players, such as; Asherons Call, UO, EQ. I like your idea though it can even the playing field considerably for new players.
Oh, I did not mean to say that one thing was bigger than the other that made NC collapse. I just had this as an example, those three collapses this last year in the life of EVE, one of the reasons being wear and tear and that this (repeating myself I know) closes the gap aswell.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Hehehe...once again let me repeat this.
NOBODY IS SAYING GIVE ANYONE ANYTHING. THEY WOULD STILL HAVE TO EARN IT OVER TIME - JUST LESS TIME, BUT IT WOULD STILL TAKE TIME!
Sheesh...some of you think some of us are advocating just giving a new player 10 mil SP. We never said that and that would not work. What we're proposing is allowing for a player that has less than 10mil SP to gain SP a little faster than it is now so that they can "get up to speed" faster. It is not going to damage the game in the least - in fact we have provided good arguments that say just the opposite. It'll get players into skills faster that are more on a level that will allow them to go into null-sec quicker. Vet's are always saying that they wish more people would play in null-sec...well guess what, under the current system that is never going to happen. That is why 75%, or so(maybe it is 65%), of the player base never goes into low-sec of null-sec! Did you ever think of that.
as usual this debate has taken a turn for the worse. I will concede that I have a sp advantage if you concede that it isn't as big as most people think. I'm similiar in Malcanis case...I don't have any weapon spec's to V. However, I do have all of the named to V and most of the spec's to IV.
Is it an advantage, yes. However...I just logged out..and I was in a megathron. Let's see how the breakdown looks..
Corp management...none
Drones.....One racial to IV, Durability to IV, Combat Drone Ops to V Navigation V, Sharpshooting to V, Interfacing to V, Electronic Warfare to IV, Drone skill to V, and Scout Drone Op to V...for a total of...3,494,825 sp used for x5 med T2 drones with applicable support skills.
Electronics...Electronics to V, I assume you would think Electronic Upgrades..so that's a V, Long Range Targeting to V, Multitasking to III, Prop Jamming to V..i guess, Signature Analysis to V, Targeting to V..that's 2,584,000
Engineering...Engineering to V, Energy Emissions Systems(assuming i had a neut/nos fitted) to V, Energy Grid Updates to V, Energy Management to V, Energy Systems Ops to V, you arent getting any more Engineering as it would be armor fitted...so that's...2,304,000
Gunnery...Advanced Weapon Upgrades to V, Controlled Bursts to V, Gunnery to V, for sake of normalcy..Large Blasters spec to IV, Large Hybrid to V, i will even give you med hybrid/blaster spec to IV, as it's needed...motion prediction to V, rapid firing to V, Sharpshooter to V, oh ofc I would have needed small hybrid to V, and small blaster spec to IV as well, Surgical Strike to V, Trajectory Analysis to V, and Weapon Upgrades to V....for a total of... 13,056,000.
Industry...none
Leadership?..I will go with nothing b/c this is fantasy land 1 vs 1 right?
Mechanic.....Armor Rigging to IV, EM/Therm/Kin/Exp Comps to V, Hull Upgrades to V, Mechanic to V, Repair Systems to V so that's 3,840,000.
Missile Launcher Ops..no missiles on this mega.
Navigation..Acceleration Control to V, , Evasive Maneuvering to V, you only get Afterburner to V or High Speed Man to V...let's say it was fitted with a MWD..so HSD manuevering to V, Warp Drive Ops to V, Navigation to V..so that's 3,328,000.
Science...none...
Spaceship Command...Gallente Frig/Cruiser/Battleship to V...3,840,000
Trade...none...
so let's put this together...that's 32,446, 825 sp.....out of 113 mil. This character is PvP specc'd. I guess you are saying that b/c I have 32+ mil sp in my megathron I am an uberwtfbbqpwn mobile....is that right? Oh yea..if you bring a falcon, friends, damps, bubbles...whatever...you are now at an advantage. So really, it's me..the old crusty vet that should be complaining. I have invested almost 115mil sp in PvP skills...why should a newb be able to kill invincible me? Because that's what CCP WANTS.
I can only focus those 32 mil sp in that mega...my main has just as many..and he isn't really specc'd for PvP..so he would be even a better analogy. I guess there is no convincing people. I have been brought down more times than I can remember b/c I didn't see his friends in local, I wasn't paying attention, they got the drop on me...etc.
However according to you, this character CANT lose. I wish that were the case..but sadly it isn't. I think I'm going to start a campaign to SLOW the sp progression down. I guess us vets are so old, hateful and stingy we are only in it for ourselves. Listening to these rants tells me that you either never played EvE, are a troll, played and left because you couldn't handle the "disparity" anymore or just got burned out.
That's okay. Some of us are enjoying it still. I like helping my new guys. I know when I'm not online, they can hold their own and don't need me or an admin to let them defend themselves.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
You're argument doesn't work because what you're talking about is 3 vs 1, or 4 vs 1, or 5 vs 1 - on and on...and I bet those people you are up against are not noobs either. I bet none of them have less than 10mil SP. You are trying to win your argument by playing on the ideal that this is how all combat in EVE is. It is not(well...then again yes it is...many enocunters are like this...gangs of players vs 1), then again there are some small battles and then there are the fleet battles. A new player would have a better chance at performing during one of the latter encounters if they had the right skills. Any player encountering a group of players vs 1 would be hard pressed to win. That is just logic. Then again...depends on the skills and the level of those skills of the players you encounter. A brand new group of players(say 4) with less than 200k SP flying frigates will be crushed by a vet in a well fitted destroyer and up.
::sigh:: Tired of this debate. I given my opinion and I think it is the correct one. I think new players to EVE would be more likely to stick around if they had more incentive to do so. As it is now...we're lucky if they make it past their 15 day trial.