For the amount of money they're investing into games that are all alike... No.
You'd think it'd be easy for a dev to vist any gaming forums site on the net, find a thread full of complaints people have about mmo's (the same complaints we've had for years now), and make a checklist of shit to not include in their game - and yet we get the same thing spat out every other quarter with steadily increasing graphics and we're forced to settle for them because there simply isn't anything better.
It might have been okay a decade ago when the genre was just spreading its wings but now that there are more than a couple of titles things need to change, yet no one wants to leave their comfort zone and they still expect their paychecks in the mail.
I'm sick and tired of paying for "fillers". I'd rather not give any money to a new game company that didn't try to break the mold and tell 'em to try again, rather than encourage that nature and make them feel like they did something successful.
from Isabella Parsley's article Now, a decade and change down the MMO road, our demands have changed and become louder. Give me a game I can play alone or with others as I see fit. Give me a game thats an FPS, with intricate storylines, multiple character and character-advancement options, a cornucopia of stuff to collect and battles with 5 or 500 participants. Give me new content to devour on a regular basis and update old content so it doesnt get boring. Involve me so deeply in what Im doing that I cant put the game down, but make it so I can log out after 30 minutes (I do have a life, you know!) and still feel as though I got a good dose of entertainment.
All this from one game is defintely too much to ask. It is downright impossible. What is wrong with asking these things from MANY different MMOs? Why not create a FPS MMO? How about a PvP first MMO? Maybe a good, old fashioned RPG MMO could please some people. I wonder if a turn based combat system would work in an MMO... Wizard101 seemed to make that possible and does it well. (That was to you, DDO and CO.)
The problem is the game companies try to be a jack-of-all-trades and end up master of none. Therefore, they are basically all the same thing with little tweaks here and there for minor variety. WoW is the comarison game because it makes millions a month. Why would a new game NOT use the formula?
What we, as players, often forget is that game companies are businesses first and foremost. They will do what brings in the biggest profits. Item malls are popular because if a customer (which is what we are) buys one $25 item each month, we have spent more that month than a subscription fee. Almost 2 months worth of sub fees for $15/month games. As long as customers buy these things, game companies will not change their formula. Who can blame them? Supply and demand is in full swing here.
Yell and whine all you want on message boards. Does not matter. Only when one exercises their right to NOT pay, do companies listen. I liken this situation to relationships. Many people would rather be in a BAD relationship than no relationship at all. Same with MMOs. Many people would rather play a sub-par MMO or same-old, same-old MMO than not play any MMO at all.
*currently not playing an MMO*
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Isabelle, part of the "explanation" - and I don't mean any offense - is that you are showing your age. What I mean is that in the developed world the generations that are now in their 20s or teens often make the older generations shake their head in disbelief at the sense of entitlement they have.
Where older generations might work hard and save money before spending, the younger generation wants it all now and doesn't see anything wrong with that. Where the older took responsibility for themselves and their learning the younger often dont. They unthinkingly accept the benefits of centuries of science and progress in medicine, technology and engineering.
It is why childhood diseases are returning (mothers of today are far removed from the horrors that polio and measles wreaked in communities so vaccination is something they question).
And it is why when we listen/read some of the comments of MMO gamers we sometimes think words like "ungrateful" and "selfish".
I often look back at my first computer and the first computer games and I am simply awe-struck by the online games of today. They are absolutely, unbelievably, mind-bogglingly amazing feats of programming and technology. The children of today don't see this. They were being shown online over Skype shortly after birth.
To say it's simply "younguns" being "ungrateful and selfish" is insulting. No one has said or inferred that they don't have an appreciation for the technology within the genre. If no one wants MORE, however, the genre will simply stagnate and die. To want more is how progress is MADE. The technology today is something we have because "younguns" of 15 years ago wanted MORE. So I think it's way off base to knock the people who "want more" and want to push this genre forward rather than letting it become increasingly stale. I don't want my games packed with moth balls.......
By the way...I'm 48 years old, so I'm not one of the "younguns," but I understand their desires for BETTER and MORE.
I did say "part of the explanation"... another part is the perspective of long-time MMOers such as yourself that the genre has grown stale (which I can understand but don't entirely agree with).
When you meet first time MMOers they are generally overwhelmed by how amazing this online world is they have discovered, whether it be in Darkfall, WoW or LOTRO. They are appreciative.
I wonder too if there is a natural point in the development of any genre where the possibilities for BETTER and MORE become exhausted and the best you can do is refinement. When was the last time someone made a car that provided a truly novel experience compared to driving other cars?
The desire for BETTER and MORE *can* drive innovation, but it can equally drive discontentment and self-centredness.
im not asking for too much especially since these people are getting lots of money to make it not to mention the millions they get from subs.
fun crafting, balanced pvp, exciting pve, great immersive storyline, immersive world (i have to feel like im there), easy grouping, nothing forced on me in the game (when i want to be in a group i will be in a group, same goes for pvp), earned easy travel, a wellmade mount/vehicle system, no grinding (or at least make it so painless i won't notice, thanks turbine for that one)
these to me are ALL must haves for a game to be successfull. innovation is good but it has to be BETTER then before. why can't we have hirelings in every game that do the crappy tasks we need to do to get the better stuff?
If anything but my title is correct, why switch off of the atari why make the atari 2 . Where they not asking too much with the atari 2?
Why make faster cpus, video cards, better graphics better software rendering codes, why step past pong?
Becuase better is better.
This is the nature of man to improve, to seek opritunity. To socially evolve (technology is a social aspect).
Do we always get better , that is the question. Lets be honest "and while it may occasionally even be fun for the developers, it ain’t cheap and it ain’t easy" is fine and all but that doesn't mean we should support failure or mediocrity.
"here’s to all the overworked, often underpaid and always underappreciated people who make our games happen as best they can" These simply do not exist in a free society. If they are underpaid they could work at another company for the correct pay level (they don't becuase they are not underpaid, becuase people talk with their feet). But i will say their is a lot of effort and not all of it is met with great results, same is true for every business, and the thousands of hardworking small businesses and eamployees that fail every year. If they didn't agree with their employment conditions they should leave, and do, but otherwise they agree with them.
Still their failure is experience and hopefully create insentives to do better next time, if not the system is asking too little of their mmos. (which i feel is the truth).
I mean box sales for war, aion, and a ton more are very high but the games are not that good , hype and desire for a good mmo drive the sales. But the "good" in these games is not being delivered, people talk with their feet and its hard to get people to move, so when they leave it tells you something.
"And we could – and should – learn to manage our expectations based on what a few overworked people can do within budget rather than on what we think someone with a magic wand can pull out of thin air, for nothing and on-demand."
I agree but if the game is boring after 1 month, ill leave and so will many more. This has little to do with how hard a few people or their budget was, all that matters is the quality of the product.
Lets say you buy a smart phone they make these smart phone in two different places one place makes it great, their factory is top of the line the mircoproccessor they purchase are great, the assembly is great ... their phone is great. Now another factory has a small budget dataed tools/capital and overworked people, its the same phone but they might buy less preforming processors for it, their assembly is often shody, they don't test many before shipping they just don't have the budget... which factory do you want your smartphone from?
Aren't you asking too much of that small old factory? Before you say this doesn't happen it indead does, and very often with tv/ pc monitors (stay away from these models with these last 2-3 letters [mean it was made but one of these cheep factories, using poor hardware, and componates]).
While i can understand the humanistic value of this article, [real people make mmos], it should in no way enter into how we discuss, apraise, and select the mmos we play.
Note this is coming from an old school gamer, where very little was provided, but in what was provided was done well, now often a ton of content is provided, but done poorly. At the end of the day content is always repeating, i would at least like to enjoy limited but high quality content over the inverse.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
im not asking for too much especially since these people are getting lots of money to make it not to mention the millions they get from subs.
fun crafting, balanced pvp, exciting pve, great immersive storyline, immersive world (i have to feel like im there), easy grouping, nothing forced on me in the game (when i want to be in a group i will be in a group, same goes for pvp), earned easy travel, a wellmade mount/vehicle system, no grinding (or at least make it so painless i won't notice, thanks turbine for that one)
these to me are ALL must haves for a game to be successfull. innovation is good but it has to be BETTER then before. why can't we have hirelings in every game that do the crappy tasks we need to do to get the better stuff?
lol if this post doesn't prove Isabelle's point (and mine) to people then nothing will - especially the last request.
"why can't we have hirelings in every game that do the crappy tasks we need to do to get the better stuff?"
A lot of advertising these days (at least in my country) finishes with the phrase "you deserve it". Why? Why do I deserve it? Because I am special? But I'm not. I was just being a slob waching tv and your ad came on. It makes absolutely no sense. Yet people believe it. Really believe it.
I'm a math Professor and taught my first course this year. Student behaviour was a true shock. For so many of them all that matters is getting the reward (passing the course in this context) and they do not give a flying f*ck how they get it. It is like they *deserve* to pass so cheating is fine. Copying during assessment was a major problem, especially when the questions were hard. Actually working at the material and doing the "crappy tasks" - the exercises - somehow isn't for them. Really, why can't a hireling do it? They pushed me every step of the way to be as responsible for their learning as they could, and for themselves to be least responsible.
The MMO games are fine - even wondrous for the most part. The players are the crappy part. They either have a massive sense of entitlement or they are too dumb to realise they need to take a break from MMOs, or - and these are the real zingers - both.
This is the nature of man to improve, to seek opritunity. To socially evolve (technology is a social aspect).
Yes, but it is also in "the nature of man" to grow fat, lazy and stagnate (in all kinds of ways) in the absence of hardship or the possibility of hardship.
All we are asking is to be entertained. Is that too much to ask?
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Originally posted by Strap The MMO games are fine - even wondrous for the most part. The players are the crappy part. They either have a massive sense of entitlement or they are too dumb to realise they need to take a break from MMOs, or - and these are the real zingers - both.
Tell me then pls in what way have the mmos improved in gameplay mechanics since Daoc, UO, SWG pre CU, EvE. All games that have been released up to 14 years ago.
Give me proof of a game that has been released in the last 7 years that has done the elements that these games stand for in a better way so you can name it a progress with a good reason!
"why can't we have hirelings in every game that do the crappy tasks we need to do to get the better stuff?"
I only see a deeper gameplay possibility in this - a matter of creativity.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
"the customer is always right!" < this right here is the root of the problem in my opinion. Everyone thinks they are right, when in fact most of them are wrong. What would make your gameplay might make anothers persons worse. I stopped following almost all MMO games that i play forums becasue all it was is whining about we want this we want that. Any discussion thread turns into a flame fest either between players or aimed at the developers.
Yes some ideas/wants are very viable and could empower gameplay, but even those most of the time are so clouded inside walls of whinny text that no one bothers to even take them seriously. Which is another main issue, we as people seem to have forgotten how to be polite and treat others with respect expecially on the internet. We whine and b*tch like little kids the second something doesnt go our way or we want something put into a game and its sickening if you ask me.
Why does every game have to have all these elements? You want to know why the games of past were better gameplay wise? Because they all were niche games that satisfied their niche. Yes they all may have been the phantasy genre, and had much of the content options but they all had 1-2 things they did exceptionally well and people that wanted that niche flocked to it. Now a days everywants every game to have all these things in them and it just makes no sense. I want a game where crafting makes all the difference, i dont want to have to raid over and over to farm for gear. But that may not be liked by someone that likes farming raids(yes i know a few that do.)
Its a know fact that for the most part its the investors and boards of the gaming companies that are ultimately killing the industry, its not the designers that have to listen to them to keep their jobs. But they are the ones that have to sit and listen to us complain over and over about stuff like little children.
All in all bring back the niche markets instead of all in ones, and for sakes people stop whining like my 8 month old daughter does when she craps her pants. The customer is not allways right, especially when half the time they have no clue what they are talking about...
(disclaimer: statements posted in this comment are of the writers own opinions and are no way considered as fact so debate them as such. constructive critisiscm is wanted, whining and flaming are not.)
How about this, when the major MMO companies stop putting out the same half-finished, buggy, feature light, content lite, crap we have all seen before, then we will "stop asking".
Since when is the customer wrong to feel they are or are not getting their money's worth out of a game?
Lately, the new MMOs have been largely weak efforts and poorly received. Like, all of them.
Tell me then pls in what way have the mmos improved in gameplay mechanics since Daoc, UO, SWG pre CU, EvE. All games that have been released up to 14 years ago.
Give me proof of a game that has been released in the last 7 years that has done the elements that these games stand for in a better way so you can name it a progress with a good reason!
But that is a different argument entirely.
Look, I'm not an MMO veteran, but I'll give this a go. The only game in your list I've tried is EvE which I found cold and neither as relaxing or as fun as many other MMOs. General chat in EvE consisted of silence or people pretending they were jerking off. For the life of me, I do not see what other people see in EvE.
I'm playing Rift and having an awesome time.
I name it progress becuase the invasions and Rifts and public group feature have combined for me to give a genuinely different play experience to the normal solo quest grind (in EQ for example - heck even in EvE I was playing solo grinding quests/missions/gathering) or the group dungeon crawl thing. Which is not to say I don't quest or dungeon crawl in Rift when it suits me. I do, and it has had its very entertaining moments.
Anyway, the point is, that FOR ME Rift was progress. Hopefully GW2 will follow that up with their dynamic events and philosophy that in PvE seeing another player should always be good news.
A lot of advertising these days (at least in my country) finishes with the phrase "you deserve it". Why? Why do I deserve it? Because I am special? But I'm not. I was just being a slob waching tv and your ad came on. It makes absolutely no sense. Yet people believe it. Really believe it.
.....
The MMO games are fine - even wondrous for the most part. The players are the crappy part. They either have a massive sense of entitlement or they are too dumb to realise they need to take a break from MMOs, or - and these are the real zingers - both.
You are making an assumption that because you find the games to be "wondrous for the most part" they are just fine. Maybe they are...for you...and that's great...for you. There are parts of MMO's that are "wondrous" to me too, especially in some of the artwork, but I don't subscribe to a game just for artwork. Do I feel entitled to better games? No, of course not. But neither do I need to spend my cash on an MMO that doesn't entertain me sufficiently...and I don't.
As to your statement about the players...well, I've met many who were not "crappy" but were in fact rather nice people. Most of the people I've met were neither "dumb" nor did they have a sense of entitlement. That's not to say that there aren't some who fit your characterization of them but, thankfully, that has been a small amount in my experience.
Originally posted by Strap Anyway, the point is, that FOR ME Rift was progress. Hopefully GW2 will follow that up with their dynamic events and philosophy that in PvE seeing another player should always be good news.
Ok, from your personal experience its progress and its reasonable, i see it.
EvE was cold to me too btw and i dont play it but it has some fundamentally good things in the way it works as future business simulation in space with different security zones to give players a choice how much risk they want wage to encounter threats and pvp while any sort of drama happens.
Btw, i dont think that the developers today try to much, they focus what they think is a very broad audience with a very narrow gamming profile revolving around combat, combat, combat, combat and.........combat. Developers today do plan their mmos wrong from the very root on and later the systems be set in stone and its impossible to turn around or even aside!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
I see a lot of people in this demanding with zero experience of what it takes to meet those demands.
AMG, we have been waiting for flying cars forever now! Engineers are just lazy and too stupid to create what I want, which is a flying car. I don't have any examples of the exact thing I want, just a bunch of older projects such as transport planes, UAVs, air show planes, satelites, and of course, cars. They should have already found a way to merged all of those ideas into a single polished product. Oh yeah...it should look good too...
Bad example. Its more like we had already electro cars in the early days of automobils and then the combustion engine got common and development of electro cars got halted and ignored.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
I see a lot of people in this demanding with zero experience of what it takes to meet those demands.
AMG, we have been waiting for flying cars forever now! Engineers are just lazy and too stupid to create what I want, which is a flying car. I don't have any examples of the exact thing I want, just a bunch of older projects such as transport planes, UAVs, air show planes, satelites, and of course, cars. They should have already found a way to merged all of those ideas into a single polished product. Oh yeah...it should look good too...
Um... what?
A lot of what people are asking for, which is apparently considered as "too much" by some others, has already existed in an MMO almost a decade and a half ago.
We're not asking for developers to create something completely new that's never been done before. We're asking them to develop a complete MMO, which means creating a virtual world, like the oldschool MMOs used to quite literally be.
Developers have been focusing too much on graphics and static mediocre content catered towards a generalized audience. That's why MMOs have been so bland and stale for the past several years. Developers think they can pull off the same half-assed uninspired tripe and make money... The sad thing about that is, they apparently can because there's so many gamers easily falling prey to hype.
The developers don't seem to get it. The message coming from gamers is interpretted as wanting innovation. That they want something new, something original, something outside of what every other big MMO on the market is. But why then do they continue to pump out the same old uninspired trash?
The answer is staring the entire industry right in the face, but they're too damn blinded by false dreams of profit to see it. The answer is to return the MMO roots and pushing to creating virtual worlds, and not massively multiplayer online skinner boxes like the rest of the modern MMOs have become.
The industry doesn't need innovation right now. It needs to re-gain the design philosophy and spirit it's lost over the past decade.
There are as many mmos as there are personallities, and if someone wants to join this market then they need to remember that the competition is going to be tough.
I see a lot of people in this demanding with zero experience of what it takes to meet those demands.
AMG, we have been waiting for flying cars forever now! Engineers are just lazy and too stupid to create what I want, which is a flying car. I don't have any examples of the exact thing I want, just a bunch of older projects such as transport planes, UAVs, air show planes, satelites, and of course, cars. They should have already found a way to merged all of those ideas into a single polished product. Oh yeah...it should look good too...
This argument is incredibly weak. I am not an engineer and don't design car engines, but I still know a pos car when I get in it and drive it. No one is asking them to create a flying car, by the way, this already exists. Gamers just want them to release games that are finished, live up to even half the hype and has enough content to justify the asking price. Dear lord, does a consumer have to be an expert in everything now just to ask for a quality product. Ridiculous!
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Thanks for the Read SBFord. I enjoyed the different persepctive that you had on MMO's.
Not very many people in today's MMO community consider the hundreds of hours that go into a single NPC, or the thousands of lines of code needed to create just one instance.
Perhapse we do need to change the way we act towards our video games, and start appreciating what we have, rather than complaining about what we don't.
I see a lot of people in this demanding with zero experience of what it takes to meet those demands.
AMG, we have been waiting for flying cars forever now! Engineers are just lazy and too stupid to create what I want, which is a flying car. I don't have any examples of the exact thing I want, just a bunch of older projects such as transport planes, UAVs, air show planes, satelites, and of course, cars. They should have already found a way to merged all of those ideas into a single polished product. Oh yeah...it should look good too...
Ok, but if you want to play that card, you have to back it up as well. You can't tell someone they don't know if you yourself don't know either. So, unless you are a game coder, you can't really say either. Also, your example, as already pointed out, is not what people are asking for.
Also, how many colleges offered classes specifically structured for game building instead of just general coding or coding in other fields at the time the first MMOs were made. Now, it's a hot topic. Even trade schools are offering classes on game design and coding. I'm not going to say whether or not each one is adequate, because I haven't been to them. I'm just saying, the gaming industry is making tons of money and losing tons of money. But, it's making more than it's losing. It's hugely popular. People are being trained specfically for it. So, is it nostalgia or are current game makers falling short of the experiences from earlier MMOs?
It's money. Everything is driven by it. Companies pay CEOs absurds amount of money and they trade them like pokemon cards. Investors are running the show in a lot of cases. They want that % point. Whatever it takes. They want their money now. Why would they care about long term? Whatever makes money will be used until it's bled dry and no longer turns a profit. Then, they will move to the next money maker and milk it for all it's worth. The other problem is, when they finally realize they screwed up(money/subscriber loss/people tire of the milking), it's usually too late. They go into panic mode. Try to give everyone everything they ever asked for and fail at delivering any of it. The game starts to die. They leave a skeleton crew to promise you the world and never deliver it because of lack of resouces/people. They keep that up until that % of profit falls and then it's poof ...gone.
Anyone remember Dark and Light and what that game promised people with it's vast continent and landbase that was significantly larger than any MMO in area next to EvE? I want something similar to that, but done by a high budget company who knows how to execute it.
Comments
For the amount of money they're investing into games that are all alike... No.
You'd think it'd be easy for a dev to vist any gaming forums site on the net, find a thread full of complaints people have about mmo's (the same complaints we've had for years now), and make a checklist of shit to not include in their game - and yet we get the same thing spat out every other quarter with steadily increasing graphics and we're forced to settle for them because there simply isn't anything better.
It might have been okay a decade ago when the genre was just spreading its wings but now that there are more than a couple of titles things need to change, yet no one wants to leave their comfort zone and they still expect their paychecks in the mail.
I'm sick and tired of paying for "fillers". I'd rather not give any money to a new game company that didn't try to break the mold and tell 'em to try again, rather than encourage that nature and make them feel like they did something successful.
The problem is the game companies try to be a jack-of-all-trades and end up master of none. Therefore, they are basically all the same thing with little tweaks here and there for minor variety. WoW is the comarison game because it makes millions a month. Why would a new game NOT use the formula?
What we, as players, often forget is that game companies are businesses first and foremost. They will do what brings in the biggest profits. Item malls are popular because if a customer (which is what we are) buys one $25 item each month, we have spent more that month than a subscription fee. Almost 2 months worth of sub fees for $15/month games. As long as customers buy these things, game companies will not change their formula. Who can blame them? Supply and demand is in full swing here.
Yell and whine all you want on message boards. Does not matter. Only when one exercises their right to NOT pay, do companies listen. I liken this situation to relationships. Many people would rather be in a BAD relationship than no relationship at all. Same with MMOs. Many people would rather play a sub-par MMO or same-old, same-old MMO than not play any MMO at all.
*currently not playing an MMO*
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I did say "part of the explanation"... another part is the perspective of long-time MMOers such as yourself that the genre has grown stale (which I can understand but don't entirely agree with).
When you meet first time MMOers they are generally overwhelmed by how amazing this online world is they have discovered, whether it be in Darkfall, WoW or LOTRO. They are appreciative.
I wonder too if there is a natural point in the development of any genre where the possibilities for BETTER and MORE become exhausted and the best you can do is refinement. When was the last time someone made a car that provided a truly novel experience compared to driving other cars?
The desire for BETTER and MORE *can* drive innovation, but it can equally drive discontentment and self-centredness.
im not asking for too much especially since these people are getting lots of money to make it not to mention the millions they get from subs.
fun crafting, balanced pvp, exciting pve, great immersive storyline, immersive world (i have to feel like im there), easy grouping, nothing forced on me in the game (when i want to be in a group i will be in a group, same goes for pvp), earned easy travel, a wellmade mount/vehicle system, no grinding (or at least make it so painless i won't notice, thanks turbine for that one)
these to me are ALL must haves for a game to be successfull. innovation is good but it has to be BETTER then before. why can't we have hirelings in every game that do the crappy tasks we need to do to get the better stuff?
Asking for too much? We've been asking for the same thing forever. And the Devs are too stupid to see that.
YOU CAN NEVER ASK FOR TOO MUCH.
This is a better title.
If anything but my title is correct, why switch off of the atari why make the atari 2 . Where they not asking too much with the atari 2?
Why make faster cpus, video cards, better graphics better software rendering codes, why step past pong?
Becuase better is better.
This is the nature of man to improve, to seek opritunity. To socially evolve (technology is a social aspect).
Do we always get better , that is the question. Lets be honest "and while it may occasionally even be fun for the developers, it ain’t cheap and it ain’t easy" is fine and all but that doesn't mean we should support failure or mediocrity.
"here’s to all the overworked, often underpaid and always underappreciated people who make our games happen as best they can" These simply do not exist in a free society. If they are underpaid they could work at another company for the correct pay level (they don't becuase they are not underpaid, becuase people talk with their feet). But i will say their is a lot of effort and not all of it is met with great results, same is true for every business, and the thousands of hardworking small businesses and eamployees that fail every year. If they didn't agree with their employment conditions they should leave, and do, but otherwise they agree with them.
Still their failure is experience and hopefully create insentives to do better next time, if not the system is asking too little of their mmos. (which i feel is the truth).
I mean box sales for war, aion, and a ton more are very high but the games are not that good , hype and desire for a good mmo drive the sales. But the "good" in these games is not being delivered, people talk with their feet and its hard to get people to move, so when they leave it tells you something.
"And we could – and should – learn to manage our expectations based on what a few overworked people can do within budget rather than on what we think someone with a magic wand can pull out of thin air, for nothing and on-demand."
I agree but if the game is boring after 1 month, ill leave and so will many more. This has little to do with how hard a few people or their budget was, all that matters is the quality of the product.
Lets say you buy a smart phone they make these smart phone in two different places one place makes it great, their factory is top of the line the mircoproccessor they purchase are great, the assembly is great ... their phone is great. Now another factory has a small budget dataed tools/capital and overworked people, its the same phone but they might buy less preforming processors for it, their assembly is often shody, they don't test many before shipping they just don't have the budget... which factory do you want your smartphone from?
Aren't you asking too much of that small old factory? Before you say this doesn't happen it indead does, and very often with tv/ pc monitors (stay away from these models with these last 2-3 letters [mean it was made but one of these cheep factories, using poor hardware, and componates]).
While i can understand the humanistic value of this article, [real people make mmos], it should in no way enter into how we discuss, apraise, and select the mmos we play.
Note this is coming from an old school gamer, where very little was provided, but in what was provided was done well, now often a ton of content is provided, but done poorly. At the end of the day content is always repeating, i would at least like to enjoy limited but high quality content over the inverse.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
lol if this post doesn't prove Isabelle's point (and mine) to people then nothing will - especially the last request.
"why can't we have hirelings in every game that do the crappy tasks we need to do to get the better stuff?"
A lot of advertising these days (at least in my country) finishes with the phrase "you deserve it". Why? Why do I deserve it? Because I am special? But I'm not. I was just being a slob waching tv and your ad came on. It makes absolutely no sense. Yet people believe it. Really believe it.
I'm a math Professor and taught my first course this year. Student behaviour was a true shock. For so many of them all that matters is getting the reward (passing the course in this context) and they do not give a flying f*ck how they get it. It is like they *deserve* to pass so cheating is fine. Copying during assessment was a major problem, especially when the questions were hard. Actually working at the material and doing the "crappy tasks" - the exercises - somehow isn't for them. Really, why can't a hireling do it? They pushed me every step of the way to be as responsible for their learning as they could, and for themselves to be least responsible.
The MMO games are fine - even wondrous for the most part. The players are the crappy part. They either have a massive sense of entitlement or they are too dumb to realise they need to take a break from MMOs, or - and these are the real zingers - both.
Yes, but it is also in "the nature of man" to grow fat, lazy and stagnate (in all kinds of ways) in the absence of hardship or the possibility of hardship.
All we are asking is to be entertained. Is that too much to ask?
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Tell me then pls in what way have the mmos improved in gameplay mechanics since Daoc, UO, SWG pre CU, EvE. All games that have been released up to 14 years ago.
Give me proof of a game that has been released in the last 7 years that has done the elements that these games stand for in a better way so you can name it a progress with a good reason!
I only see a deeper gameplay possibility in this - a matter of creativity."Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
"the customer is always right!" < this right here is the root of the problem in my opinion. Everyone thinks they are right, when in fact most of them are wrong. What would make your gameplay might make anothers persons worse. I stopped following almost all MMO games that i play forums becasue all it was is whining about we want this we want that. Any discussion thread turns into a flame fest either between players or aimed at the developers.
Yes some ideas/wants are very viable and could empower gameplay, but even those most of the time are so clouded inside walls of whinny text that no one bothers to even take them seriously. Which is another main issue, we as people seem to have forgotten how to be polite and treat others with respect expecially on the internet. We whine and b*tch like little kids the second something doesnt go our way or we want something put into a game and its sickening if you ask me.
Why does every game have to have all these elements? You want to know why the games of past were better gameplay wise? Because they all were niche games that satisfied their niche. Yes they all may have been the phantasy genre, and had much of the content options but they all had 1-2 things they did exceptionally well and people that wanted that niche flocked to it. Now a days everywants every game to have all these things in them and it just makes no sense. I want a game where crafting makes all the difference, i dont want to have to raid over and over to farm for gear. But that may not be liked by someone that likes farming raids(yes i know a few that do.)
Its a know fact that for the most part its the investors and boards of the gaming companies that are ultimately killing the industry, its not the designers that have to listen to them to keep their jobs. But they are the ones that have to sit and listen to us complain over and over about stuff like little children.
All in all bring back the niche markets instead of all in ones, and for sakes people stop whining like my 8 month old daughter does when she craps her pants. The customer is not allways right, especially when half the time they have no clue what they are talking about...
(disclaimer: statements posted in this comment are of the writers own opinions and are no way considered as fact so debate them as such. constructive critisiscm is wanted, whining and flaming are not.)
How about this, when the major MMO companies stop putting out the same half-finished, buggy, feature light, content lite, crap we have all seen before, then we will "stop asking".
Since when is the customer wrong to feel they are or are not getting their money's worth out of a game?
Lately, the new MMOs have been largely weak efforts and poorly received. Like, all of them.
This is not the fault of the customer.
But that is a different argument entirely.
Look, I'm not an MMO veteran, but I'll give this a go. The only game in your list I've tried is EvE which I found cold and neither as relaxing or as fun as many other MMOs. General chat in EvE consisted of silence or people pretending they were jerking off. For the life of me, I do not see what other people see in EvE.
I'm playing Rift and having an awesome time.
I name it progress becuase the invasions and Rifts and public group feature have combined for me to give a genuinely different play experience to the normal solo quest grind (in EQ for example - heck even in EvE I was playing solo grinding quests/missions/gathering) or the group dungeon crawl thing. Which is not to say I don't quest or dungeon crawl in Rift when it suits me. I do, and it has had its very entertaining moments.
Anyway, the point is, that FOR ME Rift was progress. Hopefully GW2 will follow that up with their dynamic events and philosophy that in PvE seeing another player should always be good news.
LMAO!
Football games have been dry and stagnant for years now really, and football faithfuls continued to support and buy because it's the only thing we got to play with an NFL label on it..
Unless of course you are talking about Futbol?
You are making an assumption that because you find the games to be "wondrous for the most part" they are just fine. Maybe they are...for you...and that's great...for you. There are parts of MMO's that are "wondrous" to me too, especially in some of the artwork, but I don't subscribe to a game just for artwork. Do I feel entitled to better games? No, of course not. But neither do I need to spend my cash on an MMO that doesn't entertain me sufficiently...and I don't.
As to your statement about the players...well, I've met many who were not "crappy" but were in fact rather nice people. Most of the people I've met were neither "dumb" nor did they have a sense of entitlement. That's not to say that there aren't some who fit your characterization of them but, thankfully, that has been a small amount in my experience.
Ok, from your personal experience its progress and its reasonable, i see it.
EvE was cold to me too btw and i dont play it but it has some fundamentally good things in the way it works as future business simulation in space with different security zones to give players a choice how much risk they want wage to encounter threats and pvp while any sort of drama happens.
Btw, i dont think that the developers today try to much, they focus what they think is a very broad audience with a very narrow gamming profile revolving around combat, combat, combat, combat and.........combat.
Developers today do plan their mmos wrong from the very root on and later the systems be set in stone and its impossible to turn around or even aside!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
I see a lot of people in this demanding with zero experience of what it takes to meet those demands.
AMG, we have been waiting for flying cars forever now! Engineers are just lazy and too stupid to create what I want, which is a flying car. I don't have any examples of the exact thing I want, just a bunch of older projects such as transport planes, UAVs, air show planes, satelites, and of course, cars. They should have already found a way to merged all of those ideas into a single polished product. Oh yeah...it should look good too...
Bad example.
Its more like we had already electro cars in the early days of automobils and then the combustion engine got common and development of electro cars got halted and ignored.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Um... what?
A lot of what people are asking for, which is apparently considered as "too much" by some others, has already existed in an MMO almost a decade and a half ago.
We're not asking for developers to create something completely new that's never been done before. We're asking them to develop a complete MMO, which means creating a virtual world, like the oldschool MMOs used to quite literally be.
Developers have been focusing too much on graphics and static mediocre content catered towards a generalized audience. That's why MMOs have been so bland and stale for the past several years. Developers think they can pull off the same half-assed uninspired tripe and make money... The sad thing about that is, they apparently can because there's so many gamers easily falling prey to hype.
The developers don't seem to get it. The message coming from gamers is interpretted as wanting innovation. That they want something new, something original, something outside of what every other big MMO on the market is. But why then do they continue to pump out the same old uninspired trash?
The answer is staring the entire industry right in the face, but they're too damn blinded by false dreams of profit to see it. The answer is to return the MMO roots and pushing to creating virtual worlds, and not massively multiplayer online skinner boxes like the rest of the modern MMOs have become.
The industry doesn't need innovation right now. It needs to re-gain the design philosophy and spirit it's lost over the past decade.
There are as many mmos as there are personallities, and if someone wants to join this market then they need to remember that the competition is going to be tough.
This argument is incredibly weak. I am not an engineer and don't design car engines, but I still know a pos car when I get in it and drive it. No one is asking them to create a flying car, by the way, this already exists. Gamers just want them to release games that are finished, live up to even half the hype and has enough content to justify the asking price. Dear lord, does a consumer have to be an expert in everything now just to ask for a quality product. Ridiculous!
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Thanks for the Read SBFord. I enjoyed the different persepctive that you had on MMO's.
Not very many people in today's MMO community consider the hundreds of hours that go into a single NPC, or the thousands of lines of code needed to create just one instance.
Perhapse we do need to change the way we act towards our video games, and start appreciating what we have, rather than complaining about what we don't.
If anything, i don't think we demand enough. We are lax on all sorts of things we would crucify a normal game on.
-AI
-Graphics
-Controls
-lack of voiceovers for quests
-extremely underbaked coding/lots of bugs
-originality
Ok, but if you want to play that card, you have to back it up as well. You can't tell someone they don't know if you yourself don't know either. So, unless you are a game coder, you can't really say either. Also, your example, as already pointed out, is not what people are asking for.
Also, how many colleges offered classes specifically structured for game building instead of just general coding or coding in other fields at the time the first MMOs were made. Now, it's a hot topic. Even trade schools are offering classes on game design and coding. I'm not going to say whether or not each one is adequate, because I haven't been to them. I'm just saying, the gaming industry is making tons of money and losing tons of money. But, it's making more than it's losing. It's hugely popular. People are being trained specfically for it. So, is it nostalgia or are current game makers falling short of the experiences from earlier MMOs?
It's money. Everything is driven by it. Companies pay CEOs absurds amount of money and they trade them like pokemon cards. Investors are running the show in a lot of cases. They want that % point. Whatever it takes. They want their money now. Why would they care about long term? Whatever makes money will be used until it's bled dry and no longer turns a profit. Then, they will move to the next money maker and milk it for all it's worth. The other problem is, when they finally realize they screwed up(money/subscriber loss/people tire of the milking), it's usually too late. They go into panic mode. Try to give everyone everything they ever asked for and fail at delivering any of it. The game starts to die. They leave a skeleton crew to promise you the world and never deliver it because of lack of resouces/people. They keep that up until that % of profit falls and then it's poof ...gone.
Anyone remember Dark and Light and what that game promised people with it's vast continent and landbase that was significantly larger than any MMO in area next to EvE? I want something similar to that, but done by a high budget company who knows how to execute it.