First time playing WoW back when it released.... after playing EQ2 on its release, me and all my friends all said the same thing!
WoW is easy, damn was it eas... but it was fun and graphics seemed ok as it ran on most computers fine back then.
After what happen with Vanguard Saga Heroes I sorta gave up hope. AoC, WAR really drove the nail in the coffin... AoC bounced back and LotRO and GW ended up impressing me.
Right now I bounce between EQ/EQ2, LotRO, AoC and DDO as my choice of mmo's to play.
If FE every got the polish and fixes it needs I would play it again.
If WoW ever got something to do endgame beside raiding I would play it again.... but I'm done playing any mmo that makes me chase a carrot on the stick for gear as the only means of an endgame.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
WoW was so much better than EQ to me, though there are still some mechanics that I think EQ did better. The noticable shift, for me, was shortly after our guild alliance started raiding MC. I actually witnessed the shift from friendship to accomplishment as the primary motivation of the majority of players. It was a sad day when the guild alliance broke up because one of the guilds in the alliance did not want to share the loot with anyone else. Not only did they leave the alliance, they took most of the players from the remaining guilds with them. Like an asshole, I joined the other guild because I wanted to get the loot. Such a big mistake. MMORPGs have never been the same for me since then.
I agree. End game raiding was one of the final nails in the coffin for mmo communities. For me the world in DAoC was great and aside from buffbotters and the addition of PvE raids I would still be there killing hibbies.
As to whether I felt doom and gloom with the launch of those games in 2004, no I did not. I had no way of knowing at the time that every company that could afford to make an MMORPG well would switch to the aforementioned mentality when it came to game design. I figured at least one would carry one the "make a world" principles of their forefathers. Well, I was wrong.
I wouldn't say that. Vanguard was a true, worthy attempt, and felt more like a pure successor of the first MMO's than an EQ2 did.
Mortal Online, another spiritual successor, only it doesn't have the company and resources backing it that's required to make it truly shine, the same applies to Xsyon. Darkfall and Fallen Earth might be considered somewhere between the early MMO's and the WoW-styled ones.
To all of them applies that they just weren't that successful, but the principles and mechanics they all tried to implement were a clear continuation of those early MMORPG's.
Sure, I agree that they attempted to carry on those principles, but we're missing a very key part of my original statement: "that could afford to make an MMORPG well". With the exception of Vanguard, all of the rest did not have the budget to do them well, and it showed.
As for Vanguard, after Microsoft as publisher parted ways with Sigil the downward spiral began. It gained full force when it was announced that SOE would pick the game up as publisher. That alone prevented a great deal of people from even giving the game a chance based on SOE's handling of SWG and word of mouth.
It's great to try to continue those ideals, but if you don't have the money to pull it off with polish...well, you get the results we've seen with the games you've mentioned.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
WoW does get better the more they work at it, but yes, I do miss the "Good ol days" back when developers tried all sorts of new things because we didn't really have an "MMO formula" yet.
In my opinion WoW get's worse and worse as they work on it. If they reverted it to Vanilla I would probably return... As the game is now, they have ruined it completely, at least for me. And the cross-server dungeon finder which sticks you right in there is only a small part of that.
Thanks, Labyrinth, for this question. Trips down MMO memory lane are always fun.
My short answer to your question is: MMOs went through an evolution cycle, with each new game evolving into another generation - until WoW. With the success of WoW, MMOs stopped evolving. Most games since have tried to copy the WoW model and just make a few tweaks here and there. So now the market is stagnant. The only glimmer of hope I have seen on the horizon is GW2.
My longer answer would be:
I started playing AD&D in 1984. It owned me for a few years. I was consumed by it. Then I lost touch with my gaming partners and had to feed my fix with novels and the occasional cheesy movie.
I finally bought a computer in the late 90's and started looking for a D&D fix. Eventually I found Diablo and it owned me for a few months. It was awesome - but it wasn't a deep enough experience. So I looked for something deeper and briefly tried out Meridian and Gemstone.
Then UO came out. It owned me for several months. It was like D&D brought to life - except it was clunky. And it was hard to progress. My friends started buying houses and castles with real money. I couldn't afford to do that so I crashed at their places.
Then EQ was released. I tried to resist. I started playing the day after release. It took forever to log in and when I did I rubber-banded every few seconds. But it owned me for 3 years. That first day was almost like the first time I had sex. OMG. But eventually the non-stop grind got old and I started looking for another mistress.
And DAoC came along. It didn't own me, but it was better. I played it for about 2 years and still look back fondly. I still have online friends that I made during those days.
And I talked most of them into trying Shadowbane after I got into the beta. We loved it. It owned me - but only for a couple of months. It was broken. It was like dating a married woman. So much promise but it was filled with problems and you had no real future. So my friends went back to DAoC and I kicked around SB and tried a few other games that didn't stick for me: SWG, AO, Horizons, GW and a few others.
Then I got into the WoW beta. OMG. It fixed all the problems from the other games and it just worked. It owned me for a few years. But after awhile, it became a levelling grind that progressed into a gear grind. Then it progressed into more and more ridiculous boss fights. When I got to a boss that forced me to "dance" to his tune I knew I wasn't playing anymore.
So I started searching for the next big thing. Tried Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, DDO, Warhammer, EQ2, NWN2, Rift and a few others. I liked something about each of them - but none of them gave me the wow factor. I still play Rift because I have to have something to maintain my sanity and it is the best of the pay to play for my money. But I will prolly cancel it soon too and hang out in LotRO or AoC until GW2 comes out. Hopefully GW2 will have some innovations and own me for awhile. These WoW clones are nice, but I've been there already.
And I still hold out hope that somehow Shadowbane 2 will come along. She was the favorite of my mistresses. I wish I could marry her.
It wasn't a case of "who is better" - WoW OR EQ/UO.. WoW was better, simply because it was new and had more advanced technologies behind it.
The real question and the cause of much later gripe was "where is it going to go next". That is why so many of the old fogies still remember the "Vanilla WoW" with fondness. In those days we saw the possibilities of WoW. We (or at least most of us) said "man, they finally got the UI and the gfx and seamlessness right. wonder what is the next thing they are going to revolutionize!". To our horror it didn't go towards what we thought of as the natural evolution of the genre but devolution and general dumbedness.
Just one example. I remember the old legendary open PvP wars over the Tarren Mill. I saw what is happening there and thought "man, this is IT! This is what PvP in mmos should look like! Now we just need some fleshing out, some incentives for opposing factions to fight all over the world and we'll have a real SOMETHING." And what did those scumbags at Blizzard do? They put goddamn penalties, the so-called "dishonorable kills" there which basically terminated any kind of open PvP in WoW... It was just heartbreaking. Such immense potential thrown away for nothing, for... nothing. World of WARcraft. Jeezus.. You have a game called World of WARcraft where you can't wage war. You have to play pretend in some instanced room. It's just the crap, the bottom of the turd pile. Greatest swindle in the history of gaming. SWG's NGE is roses compared to that.
WoW's greatest failing it that it had the promise and the ability to take this genre to a new level and it blew it. It blew it so f***ing hard that games done before it, before all the tech advances and all, are now remembered as conceptually superior to it. WoW not only stilted the development of the genre for 7 years but actually retarded it and pissed all over most of the things the genre accomplished up to "rise of the beast."
When people claim a certain era in MMOs to be "the best", they're usually referring to the first time they played one.
Do you remember your very first MMORPG? It was amazing ... at first. Then you reached the endgame content, providing it had any, and you got bored. Then you found a new game, hoping to revive the glory days of not knowing what to expect. But all you did was experience a dull "CLONE" of your last MMORPG.
Man, I sure wish I could experience a "CLONE" of Asheron's Call, or Dark Age of Camelot or Original SWG.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I started with UO, followed by Asheron's Call, then Everquest... To this day, EQ and UO are simply the best original mmo's I've ever had the privilege of playing... Both were very different MMO's, and both were great in it's own right.. EQ was the ultimate D&D type of MMO focusing on PVE epic questing and end game raiding... UO was your typical FFA PVP everything and anything goes type of mmo where you can pretty much do and be whatever you chose..
Nowadays, or I should say the last 6 years or so, MOST game developers have been trying to be the next gen WoW.. WoW is the only successful MMORPG that combined PVE with PVP features in their MMO and created the most played mmorpg of all time.. Both EQ and UO were pretty much created for people of at least average intelligence to enjoy.. WoW was created for people of any intelligence level, from the genius's to the semi illiterate...
Other game developers see this and try to imitate WoW's design and game mechanics by dumbing down their mmo.. Well, sorry but there's only one WoW and no other similar dumbed down mmo will ever be as successful, IMHO...
I believe this is where the game companies have made fatal mistakes.. Trying to recreate WoW which is basically EQ, Ultima Online, and DAOC wrapped in one game with blizzards very own unique sprinkling on top...
I believe game developers should choose to go one way or the other.. Create your FFA PVP Darkfall, or Mortal Online type game where PVP is the main focus,, OR create the next gen version of EQ focusing primarily on storyline, questing, grouping, and end game raiding...
YOU CAN'T COMBINE BOTH!! YOU'LL HAVE TO MANY FANS OF PVP CONTENT AND PVE CONTENT FIGHTING AND WANTING WHAT YOU CAN'T DELIVER... This is why I believe developers need to take a few pages from the old school popular mmo's and go with either pve or pvp as the main focus and run with it! I'm sure your game will have a better chance of being a success going one way or the other as opposed to trying to duplicate both PVE and PVP, which is almost impossible to achieve...
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I think MMOs hit, we saw the first incarnations. Many of us thought 'Wow, just imagine all the possible directions this whole thing can go! The possibilities are near limitless!''
And instead we saw 1 successful model a few years later rehashed and recreated over and over seemingly becoming more mundane and 'broad' with every new version of it.
It's a bit of a disappointment that so many unique projects dissipated as they couldn't get funding as they varied too much from WoW. It's a shame, it shattered the MMO landscape and placed the next few years worth of MMOs on predictable rails.
And yes, every year we see games that require less commitment and offfer less challenge (although in some you can just buy your way past those issues anyway).
I've played many MMOs and certainly subbed to all major MMOs to come out in the past 11 years. I love games, but am saddened to see nowhere near the initial variety we once saw (EQ, Asherons Call, Ultima Online, Shadow Bane were all drastically different games with very diferent approaches).
Also, while I still enjoy MMOs (currently Rift) I've not had anywhere near the satisfaction I used to get from advancing as a raiding guild as I did in EQ. And I've had the pleasure of being part of many top end guilds since.
I guess the more you have to work for something the more you appreciate accomplishing it. I haven't really had to put much effort in lately to be maxed out in PvP gear as well as one of the top geared raid tanks on our server with quite a few firsts, one such server first being a tanking relic.
First I'll have describe my view on casual. Casual is being able to log on for as long as I can and feel like I actually completed something.
To me UO was casual friendly because I could log on do something for even 10 minutes and feel like I was one step closer to my goal. Even if that step was only filling up my wood, ore or leather supplies. To me UO was the perfect game because it was casually hardcore. It offered so much more then todays mmos and it didn't tie revolve around combat.
The EQ came along and took the genre in the wrong direction with its excessive time sinks, not being able to wipe my rear end without a buddy, rigid level/classs design.
WoW and most of the games after are ADHD friendly.
You know, reading through this thread I have come to the conclusion that I'm not an MMO gamer. I've been on this website for years, I've played every mainstream MMO game to every be released and a lot of crappy F2P MMO games. But through all of that, I have never enjoyed as much or played any of these games as long as UO.
I started UO in '97. When Asheron's Call was released I tried it, didn't like it, went back to UO.
When EQ was released I tried it. I couldn't understand how a "new" MMO game had less content than UO and AC. I couldn't understand why they made it so boring and so hard to do anything in the game. So I returned to UO.
When DAOC was released I tried it, I had some good times in that game, played for almost 6 months. But Mythic continually rebalanced the classes which killed the game for me when they completely gimped my class. And, again, it had less content than UO. So I went back to UO.
When SWG, WoW, EQ2, Lineage 2, and City of Heroes were released I tried them all for a few months. I found them all severely lacking in all areas and not up to par with what I thought MMO games would be like in 2004-2005. I quit UO in 2005 because EA destroyed the game I loved and turned it into something unrecognizable.
8 years I played UO. The closest 2nd was LOTRO clocking in at 3 years.
Back before 2000, when UO was still fresh, I would day dream about what MMOs would be like in 2010. I imagined a game experience like .Hack or 1/2 Prince.
I guess back then the possibilities for a virtual world seemed endless. Now, looking back, I see that UO was really eons ahead of its time. The genre has continually regressed into a more restricted, freedom-less shell of what the genre could have been.
I stopped comparing new games to UO when LOTRO came out, because I realized that UO was a fluke, an anomaly, something that would not be repeated for possibly my lifetime. I realized that if I wanted to continue to play this genre with my group of friends that we would have to find something else. We would have to settle.
LOTRO was it for a while, but that's stale now. We tried Rift, CO, and are looking forward to GW2. But I can't help to look back on my history of playing MMO games and shed a small tear at what could have been if UO had become more successful than EQ in those early days.
That's how I've come to the conclusion that I would not consider myself a fan of the MMO genre as it is today. The idea, yes, the execution from game developers for the last 7 years, no.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I played all the old school MMOs. The current crop is no better and no worse as a whole IMO. I like the original MMOs but even then I hoped that these games would evolve as technology got better. While they have changed some in terms of game mechanics (some might argue for the worse), MMOs today are very similar to what they were in one important aspect. They are still static. The only changes are made by the developers and players cannot affect the game world. There is little sense that any of these worlds could actually exist. I still enjoy MMOs for short periods (I am not playing one now) but on the whole, I always get the feeling I am playing the same game with a different skin. There is no sense of danger, exploration or achievement (at least for me) in playing one. The genre has taken some small steps forward and some back in certain aspects but I don't see that there will be a real virtual world any time soon.
I played all the old school MMOs. ... They are still static.... players cannot affect the game world.... There is no sense of danger, exploration or achievement (at least for me) in playing one.
After reading this, I'm not so sure I can trust that you actually played UO in it's original design.
I say that because UO was not completely static, you could change a LOT in the game world, you could affect the game in many different ways, there was always a sense of danger, and exploring was one of my favorite things to do in the game.
If you tried UO after Trammel or the changes made later, then I could see your point.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
WoW does get better the more they work at it, but yes, I do miss the "Good ol days" back when developers tried all sorts of new things because we didn't really have an "MMO formula" yet.
In my opinion WoW get's worse and worse as they work on it. If they reverted it to Vanilla I would probably return... As the game is now, they have ruined it completely, at least for me. And the cross-server dungeon finder which sticks you right in there is only a small part of that.
I have to agree, the dungeon finder tool looked good on paper but in actual use it has ruined WoW.
WoW has become a irc chat lobby where people do nothing but stand around in the game and wait in que for the dungeon finder to pop.
The game world is empty and people only do one or two things in WoW now.... stand around and talk shit in the trade channel or raid chasing that carrot on the stick.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
I quit WoW in its first month. It was way too easy, and felt like a single player MMO. I felt no sense of accomplishment, and had attained level 40 within a two weeks. There was nothing to really do, but run monotonous solo quest.
Guild Wars was terrible, imo. It felt more like I was forcing myself to get through extremely dull content. No idea what the big fuss was about for that game.
Obviously, a lot of people think WoW and GW are better than EQ. It's just a shame that there is nothing for fantasy fans that cater to those of us who want a MMO that feels massive. DAoC used to be that, but they totally f-ed their own game up.
WOW was very refreshing and showed that not all launches need to be buggy half finished games.
I dont understand why folks say this, WoW had lots of problems from the start. It was frankly impossible to play on the release servers and the loot lag bug persisted long past that (the only game I have played where I experienced this). Skills like Blink didnt work correctly (blinked and fall through the world). Certain templates like feral druid had no equipment associated with them and when folks were hitting 60 a few months down the road there were still areas not even itemized. And that is just off the top. It was hardly a launch or finished game to claim some standard by. IIRC DAoC had a better launch which was before WoW and GW was pretty smooth afterward.
My first MMO was The Realm Online when Sierra owned it. I was accepted to EQ Beta and tried it, hated it (I think would only play orges at the time), gave my beta to my cousin and then when it launched I played EQ for 5+ years lol
I think the problem today is the "solo" element of games, you can play 1- max level and never have to group, thier is no comunity as others have stated as a problem.
I beta's wow and liked the feel of it but I think that was beacuse I was a hugh fan of Orc's vs Humans and Warcract II.
I played DAOC and just about every game to come out since then, my last game was RIFT and I played it 1-50 solo only grouping for 5 man content and rift event. I was able to get 50 in a few days /played. I pretty much stopped playing at that point and now I am back to playing APB.
I liked Everquest and DAoC for what they were but when WoW released it was definitely a step forward. After following the Warcraft IP since Warcraft 1 and the HUGE success of Warcraft 3 and TFT in the few years prior, resisting Blizzard's MMO would've been impossible for me.
I agree that the more work that has gone into WoW, the less of a game it has become. It's still decent but it wasn't what it used to be.
My first gaming experience was four years in EQ1, then a year and a half in DAOC, and some time in SWG. When I tried WoW it definitely seemed unique at first with the whole quest from point to point. But the biggest difference between WoW and what I played before was that once I reached the cap there was nothing left for me to do. I had finished the game, so moved on.
Original EQ1, DAOC, and SWG were not raiding focused at first and you could do quite a lot of things with small groups of friends. Reaching level cap (or skill cap in SWG) didn't mean the end of the game for me. There was just always something to do and to work on. As much as EQ1 is often referred to as a grouping game, there were sure a whole lot more solo/duo end game options there than in current mmo's.
Today's mmo is about getting to the end fast so you can do repeatable daily quests, start a progression of tiered dungeons, and maybe eventually raid. I guess a lot of players like this since most devs are adapting this model now, but it's not for me.
i started out playing UO the day it came out, not to mention i had been following it closely for over a year and i have to say that the first time i played wow i thought it was crap. my roommate had started playing it and it was his first mmo and this was a guy who would have made fun of someone playing an mmo a few years earlier. so i thought i would try it out too. the one thing ive hated about most mmo is the fact that they have added so much foam padding that there is just no risk reward to the games. take for example pvp, in uo u could go out and hunt down murderers and take them out and get there loot and rep bonus plus the people u were defending from the murderer were pretty happy 2 which added a social aspect to the game thats not around anymore. in those games u could also kill someone that decided they wanted to be a douche whereas nowadays they give u multiple factions to play in and u arent allowed to kill someone from your own faction which just allows the douche's to be more douchebaggy since they wont have repercussions from it. ill never forget my days of playing uo while sitting in irc channels with icq beeping at me constantly while me and a few good buddies put the beat down on the scum that inhabited napa valley
A lot of what made those games better was the community. It was a new experience. Usually the age of someone playing was at least 18+ since you had to have an internet connection (dial-up). . be able to tie up your own phone line (not your parents) and pay the sub.
Also, they were new. . there were no online guides or maps. people had fun exploring and asking questions. . this is why the games were social.
Today if you ask for directions you are told to goggle it. Also not only are there online guides now but there are buit in quest helpers. No need to talk to anyone.
If the games were truly better you could play them right now. UO (second age) is running strong and Meridian is free to play now (no item shop even!). Go play UO again and you will find a fun game. . but that 'new' experience is gone.
I think it is less about the games and more about the people. As a casual player now with old-school roots I am out of luck. I don't have time for a game community (MO, UO, Xsyon etc) and the newer "easier" games bore me to tears.
This. UO was special because it did not try to cater to a specific marketing demographic. It was completely open and flexible so, it was us, the players, who made the content.
Some people became rich artisans (tailors, armorers), some explorers, some became thieves who ran around (naked) and stole from people. And of course, some hunted monsters while others hid in the bushes waiting to kill them and take their loot...and oh yes, some formed small groups and went hunting for the player killers too.
I'm not knocking WoW, i played it since release, but, the early games let the players choose what they wanted to do; there was a profession or goal or agenda to fit every type of personality in those games. The later arrivals offered you a specific type of entertainment and it was a model of fewer choices but higher polish.
Ok so this is a question to everyone who started with the now 'oldschool' MMORPGs like EQ and Ultima etc.etc, not WoW or Guild Wars, but just 1990-2003.
A lot of people really hate what the MMO market is now, but I was wondering if everyone who played the older MMOs actually felt exactly the same way when WoW and GW and all those types of games came out?
Did you all think 'WoW is way too casual, same with GW and EQ2' compared to EQ1 etc in 2004 and whenever GW came out?
Or do the oldschool and vanilla WoW, GW etc. players all agree that back in 2004 and downwards was collectively when MMOs were the best? Or do you think only EQ and Ultima Online were the best MMOs?
It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion, or do you think WoW and GW were the same games but just improved? Or did you think WoW and GW were in fact better than Everquest and Ultima even though you started with Eq and Ultima?
Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to ask.
As a UO player for several years I will say the market definitely has room for more casual games like WoW & Guild wars. Myself I am quite time poor nowdays and the thought of trying to spend the kind of time I used to spend on UO on a game now gives me nightmares despite the fact I know I would enjoy it. WoW doesnt appeal to me, my last big MMO was Age of Conan which I played from launch until Janaury this year.
The game I probably enjoyed the most in the last few years & made me draw direct comparisons with UO is Fallen Earth, but again FE became a victim of my limited time. I will probably Play Fallen Earth again later this year once it goes F2P but right now for something totally different I am really enjoying APB:R (helps that I am a huge PvP shooter fanatic too)
YOU CAN'T COMBINE BOTH!! YOU'LL HAVE TO MANY FANS OF PVP CONTENT AND PVE CONTENT FIGHTING AND WANTING WHAT YOU CAN'T DELIVER... This is why I believe developers need to take a few pages from the old school popular mmo's and go with either pve or pvp as the main focus and run with it! I'm sure your game will have a better chance of being a success going one way or the other as opposed to trying to duplicate both PVE and PVP, which is almost impossible to achieve...
Well actually thats what they are trying to do for years and years now, and they are not very successfull doing so tbh. Look at Aion for exemple, it is a perfect exemple of that. They really try, its not that they are doing nothing in that domain really. The only one as you said that somehow succeed is Wow, but imo its not due to the mechanism at all, it is due to the fact most Wow gamer had no mmo experience, they have no clue what was going on with the trammel syndrom, and they just wanted "naively" to pvp as in any other computer game, thats all, thats why it had such a "success" in that game, nothing else. Wow certainly didn't do much to appeal to the pvper, they just put an arena with a lader and basta. Nothing even remotely comparable to the systems "pvp" mmo was puting in place, maybe those are trying too much i don't know.
Comments
First time playing WoW back when it released.... after playing EQ2 on its release, me and all my friends all said the same thing!
WoW is easy, damn was it eas... but it was fun and graphics seemed ok as it ran on most computers fine back then.
After what happen with Vanguard Saga Heroes I sorta gave up hope. AoC, WAR really drove the nail in the coffin... AoC bounced back and LotRO and GW ended up impressing me.
Right now I bounce between EQ/EQ2, LotRO, AoC and DDO as my choice of mmo's to play.
If FE every got the polish and fixes it needs I would play it again.
If WoW ever got something to do endgame beside raiding I would play it again.... but I'm done playing any mmo that makes me chase a carrot on the stick for gear as the only means of an endgame.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
I agree. End game raiding was one of the final nails in the coffin for mmo communities. For me the world in DAoC was great and aside from buffbotters and the addition of PvE raids I would still be there killing hibbies.
Sure, I agree that they attempted to carry on those principles, but we're missing a very key part of my original statement: "that could afford to make an MMORPG well". With the exception of Vanguard, all of the rest did not have the budget to do them well, and it showed.
As for Vanguard, after Microsoft as publisher parted ways with Sigil the downward spiral began. It gained full force when it was announced that SOE would pick the game up as publisher. That alone prevented a great deal of people from even giving the game a chance based on SOE's handling of SWG and word of mouth.
It's great to try to continue those ideals, but if you don't have the money to pull it off with polish...well, you get the results we've seen with the games you've mentioned.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
In my opinion WoW get's worse and worse as they work on it. If they reverted it to Vanilla I would probably return... As the game is now, they have ruined it completely, at least for me. And the cross-server dungeon finder which sticks you right in there is only a small part of that.
Thanks, Labyrinth, for this question. Trips down MMO memory lane are always fun.
My short answer to your question is: MMOs went through an evolution cycle, with each new game evolving into another generation - until WoW. With the success of WoW, MMOs stopped evolving. Most games since have tried to copy the WoW model and just make a few tweaks here and there. So now the market is stagnant. The only glimmer of hope I have seen on the horizon is GW2.
My longer answer would be:
I started playing AD&D in 1984. It owned me for a few years. I was consumed by it. Then I lost touch with my gaming partners and had to feed my fix with novels and the occasional cheesy movie.
I finally bought a computer in the late 90's and started looking for a D&D fix. Eventually I found Diablo and it owned me for a few months. It was awesome - but it wasn't a deep enough experience. So I looked for something deeper and briefly tried out Meridian and Gemstone.
Then UO came out. It owned me for several months. It was like D&D brought to life - except it was clunky. And it was hard to progress. My friends started buying houses and castles with real money. I couldn't afford to do that so I crashed at their places.
Then EQ was released. I tried to resist. I started playing the day after release. It took forever to log in and when I did I rubber-banded every few seconds. But it owned me for 3 years. That first day was almost like the first time I had sex. OMG. But eventually the non-stop grind got old and I started looking for another mistress.
And DAoC came along. It didn't own me, but it was better. I played it for about 2 years and still look back fondly. I still have online friends that I made during those days.
And I talked most of them into trying Shadowbane after I got into the beta. We loved it. It owned me - but only for a couple of months. It was broken. It was like dating a married woman. So much promise but it was filled with problems and you had no real future. So my friends went back to DAoC and I kicked around SB and tried a few other games that didn't stick for me: SWG, AO, Horizons, GW and a few others.
Then I got into the WoW beta. OMG. It fixed all the problems from the other games and it just worked. It owned me for a few years. But after awhile, it became a levelling grind that progressed into a gear grind. Then it progressed into more and more ridiculous boss fights. When I got to a boss that forced me to "dance" to his tune I knew I wasn't playing anymore.
So I started searching for the next big thing. Tried Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, DDO, Warhammer, EQ2, NWN2, Rift and a few others. I liked something about each of them - but none of them gave me the wow factor. I still play Rift because I have to have something to maintain my sanity and it is the best of the pay to play for my money. But I will prolly cancel it soon too and hang out in LotRO or AoC until GW2 comes out. Hopefully GW2 will have some innovations and own me for awhile. These WoW clones are nice, but I've been there already.
And I still hold out hope that somehow Shadowbane 2 will come along. She was the favorite of my mistresses. I wish I could marry her.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
to OP:
It wasn't a case of "who is better" - WoW OR EQ/UO.. WoW was better, simply because it was new and had more advanced technologies behind it.
The real question and the cause of much later gripe was "where is it going to go next". That is why so many of the old fogies still remember the "Vanilla WoW" with fondness. In those days we saw the possibilities of WoW. We (or at least most of us) said "man, they finally got the UI and the gfx and seamlessness right. wonder what is the next thing they are going to revolutionize!". To our horror it didn't go towards what we thought of as the natural evolution of the genre but devolution and general dumbedness.
Just one example. I remember the old legendary open PvP wars over the Tarren Mill. I saw what is happening there and thought "man, this is IT! This is what PvP in mmos should look like! Now we just need some fleshing out, some incentives for opposing factions to fight all over the world and we'll have a real SOMETHING." And what did those scumbags at Blizzard do? They put goddamn penalties, the so-called "dishonorable kills" there which basically terminated any kind of open PvP in WoW... It was just heartbreaking. Such immense potential thrown away for nothing, for... nothing. World of WARcraft. Jeezus.. You have a game called World of WARcraft where you can't wage war. You have to play pretend in some instanced room. It's just the crap, the bottom of the turd pile. Greatest swindle in the history of gaming. SWG's NGE is roses compared to that.
WoW's greatest failing it that it had the promise and the ability to take this genre to a new level and it blew it. It blew it so f***ing hard that games done before it, before all the tech advances and all, are now remembered as conceptually superior to it. WoW not only stilted the development of the genre for 7 years but actually retarded it and pissed all over most of the things the genre accomplished up to "rise of the beast."
It's just shameful.
Man, I sure wish I could experience a "CLONE" of Asheron's Call, or Dark Age of Camelot or Original SWG.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I started with UO, followed by Asheron's Call, then Everquest... To this day, EQ and UO are simply the best original mmo's I've ever had the privilege of playing... Both were very different MMO's, and both were great in it's own right.. EQ was the ultimate D&D type of MMO focusing on PVE epic questing and end game raiding... UO was your typical FFA PVP everything and anything goes type of mmo where you can pretty much do and be whatever you chose..
Nowadays, or I should say the last 6 years or so, MOST game developers have been trying to be the next gen WoW.. WoW is the only successful MMORPG that combined PVE with PVP features in their MMO and created the most played mmorpg of all time.. Both EQ and UO were pretty much created for people of at least average intelligence to enjoy.. WoW was created for people of any intelligence level, from the genius's to the semi illiterate...
Other game developers see this and try to imitate WoW's design and game mechanics by dumbing down their mmo.. Well, sorry but there's only one WoW and no other similar dumbed down mmo will ever be as successful, IMHO...
I believe this is where the game companies have made fatal mistakes.. Trying to recreate WoW which is basically EQ, Ultima Online, and DAOC wrapped in one game with blizzards very own unique sprinkling on top...
I believe game developers should choose to go one way or the other.. Create your FFA PVP Darkfall, or Mortal Online type game where PVP is the main focus,, OR create the next gen version of EQ focusing primarily on storyline, questing, grouping, and end game raiding...
YOU CAN'T COMBINE BOTH!! YOU'LL HAVE TO MANY FANS OF PVP CONTENT AND PVE CONTENT FIGHTING AND WANTING WHAT YOU CAN'T DELIVER... This is why I believe developers need to take a few pages from the old school popular mmo's and go with either pve or pvp as the main focus and run with it! I'm sure your game will have a better chance of being a success going one way or the other as opposed to trying to duplicate both PVE and PVP, which is almost impossible to achieve...
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I think MMOs hit, we saw the first incarnations. Many of us thought 'Wow, just imagine all the possible directions this whole thing can go! The possibilities are near limitless!''
And instead we saw 1 successful model a few years later rehashed and recreated over and over seemingly becoming more mundane and 'broad' with every new version of it.
It's a bit of a disappointment that so many unique projects dissipated as they couldn't get funding as they varied too much from WoW. It's a shame, it shattered the MMO landscape and placed the next few years worth of MMOs on predictable rails.
And yes, every year we see games that require less commitment and offfer less challenge (although in some you can just buy your way past those issues anyway).
I've played many MMOs and certainly subbed to all major MMOs to come out in the past 11 years. I love games, but am saddened to see nowhere near the initial variety we once saw (EQ, Asherons Call, Ultima Online, Shadow Bane were all drastically different games with very diferent approaches).
Also, while I still enjoy MMOs (currently Rift) I've not had anywhere near the satisfaction I used to get from advancing as a raiding guild as I did in EQ. And I've had the pleasure of being part of many top end guilds since.
I guess the more you have to work for something the more you appreciate accomplishing it. I haven't really had to put much effort in lately to be maxed out in PvP gear as well as one of the top geared raid tanks on our server with quite a few firsts, one such server first being a tanking relic.
I think Anarchy Online doesn't get enough credit for all the changes they brought to MMORPGs.
You know, reading through this thread I have come to the conclusion that I'm not an MMO gamer. I've been on this website for years, I've played every mainstream MMO game to every be released and a lot of crappy F2P MMO games. But through all of that, I have never enjoyed as much or played any of these games as long as UO.
I started UO in '97. When Asheron's Call was released I tried it, didn't like it, went back to UO.
When EQ was released I tried it. I couldn't understand how a "new" MMO game had less content than UO and AC. I couldn't understand why they made it so boring and so hard to do anything in the game. So I returned to UO.
When DAOC was released I tried it, I had some good times in that game, played for almost 6 months. But Mythic continually rebalanced the classes which killed the game for me when they completely gimped my class. And, again, it had less content than UO. So I went back to UO.
When SWG, WoW, EQ2, Lineage 2, and City of Heroes were released I tried them all for a few months. I found them all severely lacking in all areas and not up to par with what I thought MMO games would be like in 2004-2005. I quit UO in 2005 because EA destroyed the game I loved and turned it into something unrecognizable.
8 years I played UO. The closest 2nd was LOTRO clocking in at 3 years.
Back before 2000, when UO was still fresh, I would day dream about what MMOs would be like in 2010. I imagined a game experience like .Hack or 1/2 Prince.
I guess back then the possibilities for a virtual world seemed endless. Now, looking back, I see that UO was really eons ahead of its time. The genre has continually regressed into a more restricted, freedom-less shell of what the genre could have been.
I stopped comparing new games to UO when LOTRO came out, because I realized that UO was a fluke, an anomaly, something that would not be repeated for possibly my lifetime. I realized that if I wanted to continue to play this genre with my group of friends that we would have to find something else. We would have to settle.
LOTRO was it for a while, but that's stale now. We tried Rift, CO, and are looking forward to GW2. But I can't help to look back on my history of playing MMO games and shed a small tear at what could have been if UO had become more successful than EQ in those early days.
That's how I've come to the conclusion that I would not consider myself a fan of the MMO genre as it is today. The idea, yes, the execution from game developers for the last 7 years, no.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
WOW was very refreshing and showed that not all launches need to be buggy half finished games.
WOW is good at what it intends to achieve.
As far as MMO's go. In the case of UO it went from a world to a game to a bad diablo copy, not sure how the other games fared over the years.
I played all the old school MMOs. The current crop is no better and no worse as a whole IMO. I like the original MMOs but even then I hoped that these games would evolve as technology got better. While they have changed some in terms of game mechanics (some might argue for the worse), MMOs today are very similar to what they were in one important aspect. They are still static. The only changes are made by the developers and players cannot affect the game world. There is little sense that any of these worlds could actually exist. I still enjoy MMOs for short periods (I am not playing one now) but on the whole, I always get the feeling I am playing the same game with a different skin. There is no sense of danger, exploration or achievement (at least for me) in playing one. The genre has taken some small steps forward and some back in certain aspects but I don't see that there will be a real virtual world any time soon.
After reading this, I'm not so sure I can trust that you actually played UO in it's original design.
I say that because UO was not completely static, you could change a LOT in the game world, you could affect the game in many different ways, there was always a sense of danger, and exploring was one of my favorite things to do in the game.
If you tried UO after Trammel or the changes made later, then I could see your point.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I have to agree, the dungeon finder tool looked good on paper but in actual use it has ruined WoW.
WoW has become a irc chat lobby where people do nothing but stand around in the game and wait in que for the dungeon finder to pop.
The game world is empty and people only do one or two things in WoW now.... stand around and talk shit in the trade channel or raid chasing that carrot on the stick.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Replying to the OP:
I quit WoW in its first month. It was way too easy, and felt like a single player MMO. I felt no sense of accomplishment, and had attained level 40 within a two weeks. There was nothing to really do, but run monotonous solo quest.
Guild Wars was terrible, imo. It felt more like I was forcing myself to get through extremely dull content. No idea what the big fuss was about for that game.
Obviously, a lot of people think WoW and GW are better than EQ. It's just a shame that there is nothing for fantasy fans that cater to those of us who want a MMO that feels massive. DAoC used to be that, but they totally f-ed their own game up.
I dont understand why folks say this, WoW had lots of problems from the start. It was frankly impossible to play on the release servers and the loot lag bug persisted long past that (the only game I have played where I experienced this). Skills like Blink didnt work correctly (blinked and fall through the world). Certain templates like feral druid had no equipment associated with them and when folks were hitting 60 a few months down the road there were still areas not even itemized. And that is just off the top. It was hardly a launch or finished game to claim some standard by. IIRC DAoC had a better launch which was before WoW and GW was pretty smooth afterward.
My first MMO was The Realm Online when Sierra owned it. I was accepted to EQ Beta and tried it, hated it (I think would only play orges at the time), gave my beta to my cousin and then when it launched I played EQ for 5+ years lol
I think the problem today is the "solo" element of games, you can play 1- max level and never have to group, thier is no comunity as others have stated as a problem.
I beta's wow and liked the feel of it but I think that was beacuse I was a hugh fan of Orc's vs Humans and Warcract II.
I played DAOC and just about every game to come out since then, my last game was RIFT and I played it 1-50 solo only grouping for 5 man content and rift event. I was able to get 50 in a few days /played. I pretty much stopped playing at that point and now I am back to playing APB.
I liked Everquest and DAoC for what they were but when WoW released it was definitely a step forward. After following the Warcraft IP since Warcraft 1 and the HUGE success of Warcraft 3 and TFT in the few years prior, resisting Blizzard's MMO would've been impossible for me.
I agree that the more work that has gone into WoW, the less of a game it has become. It's still decent but it wasn't what it used to be.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
My first gaming experience was four years in EQ1, then a year and a half in DAOC, and some time in SWG. When I tried WoW it definitely seemed unique at first with the whole quest from point to point. But the biggest difference between WoW and what I played before was that once I reached the cap there was nothing left for me to do. I had finished the game, so moved on.
Original EQ1, DAOC, and SWG were not raiding focused at first and you could do quite a lot of things with small groups of friends. Reaching level cap (or skill cap in SWG) didn't mean the end of the game for me. There was just always something to do and to work on. As much as EQ1 is often referred to as a grouping game, there were sure a whole lot more solo/duo end game options there than in current mmo's.
Today's mmo is about getting to the end fast so you can do repeatable daily quests, start a progression of tiered dungeons, and maybe eventually raid. I guess a lot of players like this since most devs are adapting this model now, but it's not for me.
i started out playing UO the day it came out, not to mention i had been following it closely for over a year and i have to say that the first time i played wow i thought it was crap. my roommate had started playing it and it was his first mmo and this was a guy who would have made fun of someone playing an mmo a few years earlier. so i thought i would try it out too. the one thing ive hated about most mmo is the fact that they have added so much foam padding that there is just no risk reward to the games. take for example pvp, in uo u could go out and hunt down murderers and take them out and get there loot and rep bonus plus the people u were defending from the murderer were pretty happy 2 which added a social aspect to the game thats not around anymore. in those games u could also kill someone that decided they wanted to be a douche whereas nowadays they give u multiple factions to play in and u arent allowed to kill someone from your own faction which just allows the douche's to be more douchebaggy since they wont have repercussions from it. ill never forget my days of playing uo while sitting in irc channels with icq beeping at me constantly while me and a few good buddies put the beat down on the scum that inhabited napa valley
This. UO was special because it did not try to cater to a specific marketing demographic. It was completely open and flexible so, it was us, the players, who made the content.
Some people became rich artisans (tailors, armorers), some explorers, some became thieves who ran around (naked) and stole from people. And of course, some hunted monsters while others hid in the bushes waiting to kill them and take their loot...and oh yes, some formed small groups and went hunting for the player killers too.
I'm not knocking WoW, i played it since release, but, the early games let the players choose what they wanted to do; there was a profession or goal or agenda to fit every type of personality in those games. The later arrivals offered you a specific type of entertainment and it was a model of fewer choices but higher polish.
As a UO player for several years I will say the market definitely has room for more casual games like WoW & Guild wars. Myself I am quite time poor nowdays and the thought of trying to spend the kind of time I used to spend on UO on a game now gives me nightmares despite the fact I know I would enjoy it. WoW doesnt appeal to me, my last big MMO was Age of Conan which I played from launch until Janaury this year.
The game I probably enjoyed the most in the last few years & made me draw direct comparisons with UO is Fallen Earth, but again FE became a victim of my limited time. I will probably Play Fallen Earth again later this year once it goes F2P but right now for something totally different I am really enjoying APB:R (helps that I am a huge PvP shooter fanatic too)
Well actually thats what they are trying to do for years and years now, and they are not very successfull doing so tbh. Look at Aion for exemple, it is a perfect exemple of that. They really try, its not that they are doing nothing in that domain really. The only one as you said that somehow succeed is Wow, but imo its not due to the mechanism at all, it is due to the fact most Wow gamer had no mmo experience, they have no clue what was going on with the trammel syndrom, and they just wanted "naively" to pvp as in any other computer game, thats all, thats why it had such a "success" in that game, nothing else. Wow certainly didn't do much to appeal to the pvper, they just put an arena with a lader and basta. Nothing even remotely comparable to the systems "pvp" mmo was puting in place, maybe those are trying too much i don't know.