ToR leveling 2=3 weeks per story line, Voice acting(novelty, lasts a week), Facial animation? Body Movement? 5 min novelty.
ToR is nothing but Story that can be experienced once overy 2 weeks, but changes slightly.
Perhaps we should all play the game first before suggesting those things.
Or perhaps this is just you. that I can accept.
Spent years researching the game before it was a Game.
Believe what you want,ToR will fail becuase it was design to fail based on past mmo's.
I think you are making the statement out of some sort of spite.
It wasn't designed to fail especially when looking at past mmo's.
My guess is that for very picky gamers it might "fail". but for everyone else, they will play it and love it.
whether it has longevity will be the question.
I think that's what he means by designed to fail, in that it doesn't look like it is capable of longevity. SWTOR is extremely story focused, in so much that's it's really the only thing setting it apart from being yet another rehash. But that could be a failing as much as it is an advantage, because when the content runs out, then there's no substance left to the game to keep people interested in it over it's competition.
In other words, keeping people interested in the game means continually pumping out engaging, quality storyline, all voiced over. Why? Because that's the level of expectation Bioware is setting for themselves by putting all of their eggs in the story basket, so to speak. If past MMOs have taught us anything, it's that pumping out decent content in a timely manner isn't very easy to do in themepark MMOs... let alone pumping out quality storytelling that's fully voiced.
Well, in that case I can see his point but only in relation to "gamers" who power through content.
I think casual players won't have an issue here.
Personally, I love BioWares stories. I have played many of there games dozens of times JUST to see what differences I can come up with in the stories. Personally I think the "Power Levelers" may have a problem with the story aspect, but I don't see that as much of an issue since that is only a small segment of the gaming community. Most people are more like me. casual gamers looking for a little entertainment.
The question that people do not seem to be asking or answering, of those who love Bioware stories is, do you love them enough to pay for the box and a subscription? I am sure some do, but what Bioware is banking on is that a lot of people do, I'm not so confident in that. But I admit that is my opinion and other's may vary.
You don't pay a subscription to buy a story, you pay the subscription to play that story with other people, making the story more dynamic in the long run. If ALL we were interested in was the story, then we could easily play a SPG and be happy. Instead people that play an MMO want to be able to interact with others in a way that so far Game AI can not fulfill. It's for that reason that I am not worried about longevity all that much.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
ToR leveling 2=3 weeks per story line, Voice acting(novelty, lasts a week), Facial animation? Body Movement? 5 min novelty.
ToR is nothing but Story that can be experienced once overy 2 weeks, but changes slightly.
Perhaps we should all play the game first before suggesting those things.
Or perhaps this is just you. that I can accept.
Spent years researching the game before it was a Game.
Believe what you want,ToR will fail becuase it was design to fail based on past mmo's.
I think you are making the statement out of some sort of spite.
It wasn't designed to fail especially when looking at past mmo's.
My guess is that for very picky gamers it might "fail". but for everyone else, they will play it and love it.
whether it has longevity will be the question.
I think that's what he means by designed to fail, in that it doesn't look like it is capable of longevity. SWTOR is extremely story focused, in so much that's it's really the only thing setting it apart from being yet another rehash. But that could be a failing as much as it is an advantage, because when the content runs out, then there's no substance left to the game to keep people interested in it over it's competition.
In other words, keeping people interested in the game means continually pumping out engaging, quality storyline, all voiced over. Why? Because that's the level of expectation Bioware is setting for themselves by putting all of their eggs in the story basket, so to speak. If past MMOs have taught us anything, it's that pumping out decent content in a timely manner isn't very easy to do in themepark MMOs... let alone pumping out quality storytelling that's fully voiced.
Well, in that case I can see his point but only in relation to "gamers" who power through content.
I think casual players won't have an issue here.
Personally, I love BioWares stories. I have played many of there games dozens of times JUST to see what differences I can come up with in the stories. Personally I think the "Power Levelers" may have a problem with the story aspect, but I don't see that as much of an issue since that is only a small segment of the gaming community. Most people are more like me. casual gamers looking for a little entertainment.
The question that people do not seem to be asking or answering, of those who love Bioware stories is, do you love them enough to pay for the box and a subscription? I am sure some do, but what Bioware is banking on is that a lot of people do, I'm not so confident in that. But I admit that is my opinion and other's may vary.
You don't pay a subscription to buy a story, you pay the subscription to play that story with other people, making the story more dynamic in the long run. If ALL we were interested in was the story, then we could easily play a SPG and be happy. Instead people that play an MMO want to be able to interact with others in a way that so far Game AI can not fulfill. It's for that reason that I am not worried about longevity all that much.
But what they are selling you and telling you is the big draw of the game is the story. This is what they've anchored this game on, yes it is a multiplayer game, but that's not what they are hyping, they are hyping the story. So the question still remains, is that enough (the ability to play through a storied MMO in a number of different ways) to keep people subscribed.
You can answer yes, and that's fine I'll take that as your opinion, but the question is still a valid one to ask, be the asker a SWTOR lover or hater.
You don't pay a subscription to buy a story, you pay the subscription to play that story with other people, making the story more dynamic in the long run. If ALL we were interested in was the story, then we could easily play a SPG and be happy. Instead people that play an MMO want to be able to interact with others in a way that so far Game AI can not fulfill. It's for that reason that I am not worried about longevity all that much.
Nicely said, that is exactly why I like MMO's better than SPGs, but still want a well done story with choice as BW seems to do. I don't care if the story is amazing, just that it follows the IP and is entertaining. And allows me to interact with others as in any other MMO.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
I feel that the story itself is pretty important in my opinion. Getting on with friends and going through an engaging story together takes a game from being a farming game to something better. But, I usually join the roleplaying guilds/corps anyway, as the immersion is more fun and feel I get the most out of my time and money spent. Basically an interactive movie where you make the decisions....
DAO: your stripped of all your armour, awakening in a prison cell. Your character is powerless.
You find yourself in a Dream state, how do you get out?
Morrigan wants you to kill her mother. What will happen?
KOTOR: you are a Jedi in training.....then you begin to remember your dark past....
Your good friend Bastilla turns to the darkside, can you turn her back?
Jade Empire: Your struggle the whole game to free your master from captivity, only to find hes something totally unexpecrted.
"who are these enemys"
ME: you touch the Conduit and some piece of vision appears of some vast society that returns every millenium to purge the worlds of civilization.
ME2: what are these bee things attacking people? Collectors?
DA 1+2: who are these darkspawn? Who is the Darkspawn leader?
KOTOR 1+2: former friends turned Sith
Well first off, you know you CAN kill everyone in the room and not get arrested? Least that's what I did and I was welcomed back like a hero, so nice, thanks BIoware for not caring about me butchering 20 police officers in broad daylight... => And well, what happens is: You dungeon crawl through, kill the a boss, and oh joy, you all get up healthy and awake. How unexpected. And Morrigan: You can go there and kill Flemeth. Period. Now that's a surprise, wow.
And saying "it's all been done before" is just not true. Any one of you seen "A serbian movie"? That had not been done before and people said "torture porn" had gone anywhere it could. Or "a slim chance", a croatian short movie about a war veteran returning to his family, so emotionally intense (without a single scene of violence in it) that it made me cry, not wet my eye, cry like a baby (and I didn't cry over "a serbian movie"). Not done before.
Now I don't expect fat burger-laden geeks in full A/Ced uptown offices to come up with anything artisticly valuable. But claiming they... well, I'd repeat myself, they're producing cheap magazine fiction, at the very least they don't reach me emotionally, at all.
M
A Serbian Movie was not original in plot/story which is the point of the thread.
It's believed by many that all stories that have been told, have been told. It's an age old question in cinema and literature. All you can do, is give the actors a new hat, and have them have the same Drama in different settings and under differnet circumstances.
A lot of people in this thread are talking out of their buttocks. To really understand what is going on with Bioware's stories is that they are interactive story. No, Mass Effect is not Catcher in the Rye in space, and thank the flying spagetti monster for that.
It's a well understood notion that gaming fiction is not very good. The best stories tend to come from those that don't blast their audience, like Fumito Ueda (Ico, Shadow of the Colossus). A story can be told without words, instead of hammering down one liners.
But what do you expect, when we live in a world, where Inception is considered smart and intelligent?
Well, I think it was (A serbian movie). At least it had moments (I wont go into details for PEGI-reasons) where I sat there, awestruck, wondering if they are _actually_ depicting THIS right now. It was not sensational plotwise, but it took twists, for example the ending scene, that you just didn't expect, nobody did (from the people I watched it with, which I'd call ... erm "my special stomach-hardened horror friends")
And if anything had been told, how come trash-movies like "the human centipede" rake in so much attention. In my opinion, because there _are_ some ideas that just have not yet been told and people have not yet come up with. Sure, the director constructed a trash, predictable movie around it, but the original idea was genuine, inspired maybe, but genuine.
It is unfortunate that i have to refer to the horror-genre all the time, but sociodramas and horror movies are the only ones I have a certain degree of experience with and I can sincerely say that in these genres, there have been plenty of interesting, genuine ideas during the last decade.
And concerning the last line. Inception is a hollywood movie. I really don't expect anything from anyone who considers mainstream movies smart and intelligent. They're not, success and depth mostly exclude each other...
M
I think you are confusing ideas in films, with plot/structure. The human centipede/a serbian movie have a plot structure/narrative like any other film. There is nothing unique about them, other than their grotesque content. That's fluff. It has nothing to do with story, characters or plot in itself.
I can sit down right now, and make a screenplay much more sick than the human centipede or terror firmer, but it would not have anything to do with story.
The ending in A Serbian Movie was very predictable. You need to watch more movies if you didn't saw that coming. I would say I was dissapointed with it... of course it had to be that. It basically was a more crappy version of Oldboy, which unlike A Serbian Movie, is a FANTASTIC movie, even thoughly it follows a very simple story set up; a character out on Revenge.
And Oldboy perfectly depicts why it's so true that Less is more - Again I have to put awareness to Fumito Ueda and his approach to story.
Also, with regards to my Inception comment - Inception was a really fun film. It was not his best work (Momento!) but it was really fun. - My problem with Inception is only all those smug douchebags who run around claiming it's the next high point in philosophy.
I LOVE mainstream movies. I think Star Wars is a fantastic story. Star Wars is the oldest story in the book - It follows a 2000 year old archertype, where you can pinpoint the "Heroes Journey" throughout all the films.
{mod edit - image resized to fit forum}
A typical picture of the Heroes Journey - As proposed by Joseph Campbell. This is the model George Lucas wrote Star Wars on. And it's why Star Wars is used in so many examples to explain story. Because it's the oldest and most ideal story.
Luke Skywalker is not a particularly great character. Mark Hamil is not a particularly great actor. But it works because it serves the story, and the story is supported by many other rich and colorful characters (Darth Vader, C3PO, Obi-Wan, The Emperor, Yoda).
90% of all movies can easily be put in this. It's quite easy to find the holes, the call to adventure, the mentor. Depending on the setting, the "mentor" or call to adventure might not be a person, but a thing, or a something from a flashback.
It's also why Bioware historically have used the "oh your character has amnesia and dont remember anything setup": It makes it easier to reveal things to the audience/player later.
As others have stated. Bioware games are far from good when it comes to story telling.
If you like linear stories and cardboard cut out characters then go ahead and think that Bioware are great writers. The fact is they are very far from good in any shape or form.
As others have stated. Bioware games are far from good when it comes to story telling.
If you like linear stories and cardboard cut out characters then go ahead and think that Bioware are great writers. The fact is they are very far from good in any shape or form.
If Bioware is not 'good enough' in your eyes, I'd love to hear what game devs does.
Obisidian is the only other game company I'd say is on par with Bioware in terms of story telling. The issue is that Obisidian fails at every other level compared to BW though.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I'm not particular impressed with Bioware's story-telling, either. Don't get me wrong, I think they are decent but it's not anything that I felt was overly inspired. It's not like sitting down and reading Tolkien. What they do, however, is put alot of effort into the presentation of thier stories. Which is why I think they have the reputation they do. Even if thier stories aren't particulary inspired from a narritive sense, they are presenting them to you in a very robust and polished manner.
Comments
You don't pay a subscription to buy a story, you pay the subscription to play that story with other people, making the story more dynamic in the long run. If ALL we were interested in was the story, then we could easily play a SPG and be happy. Instead people that play an MMO want to be able to interact with others in a way that so far Game AI can not fulfill. It's for that reason that I am not worried about longevity all that much.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
But what they are selling you and telling you is the big draw of the game is the story. This is what they've anchored this game on, yes it is a multiplayer game, but that's not what they are hyping, they are hyping the story. So the question still remains, is that enough (the ability to play through a storied MMO in a number of different ways) to keep people subscribed.
You can answer yes, and that's fine I'll take that as your opinion, but the question is still a valid one to ask, be the asker a SWTOR lover or hater.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
So this is ME2 in a nutshell:
I feel that the story itself is pretty important in my opinion. Getting on with friends and going through an engaging story together takes a game from being a farming game to something better. But, I usually join the roleplaying guilds/corps anyway, as the immersion is more fun and feel I get the most out of my time and money spent. Basically an interactive movie where you make the decisions....
I think you are confusing ideas in films, with plot/structure. The human centipede/a serbian movie have a plot structure/narrative like any other film. There is nothing unique about them, other than their grotesque content. That's fluff. It has nothing to do with story, characters or plot in itself.
I can sit down right now, and make a screenplay much more sick than the human centipede or terror firmer, but it would not have anything to do with story.
The ending in A Serbian Movie was very predictable. You need to watch more movies if you didn't saw that coming. I would say I was dissapointed with it... of course it had to be that. It basically was a more crappy version of Oldboy, which unlike A Serbian Movie, is a FANTASTIC movie, even thoughly it follows a very simple story set up; a character out on Revenge.
And Oldboy perfectly depicts why it's so true that Less is more - Again I have to put awareness to Fumito Ueda and his approach to story.
Also, with regards to my Inception comment - Inception was a really fun film. It was not his best work (Momento!) but it was really fun. - My problem with Inception is only all those smug douchebags who run around claiming it's the next high point in philosophy.
I LOVE mainstream movies. I think Star Wars is a fantastic story. Star Wars is the oldest story in the book - It follows a 2000 year old archertype, where you can pinpoint the "Heroes Journey" throughout all the films.
{mod edit - image resized to fit forum}
A typical picture of the Heroes Journey - As proposed by Joseph Campbell. This is the model George Lucas wrote Star Wars on. And it's why Star Wars is used in so many examples to explain story. Because it's the oldest and most ideal story.
Luke Skywalker is not a particularly great character. Mark Hamil is not a particularly great actor. But it works because it serves the story, and the story is supported by many other rich and colorful characters (Darth Vader, C3PO, Obi-Wan, The Emperor, Yoda).
90% of all movies can easily be put in this. It's quite easy to find the holes, the call to adventure, the mentor. Depending on the setting, the "mentor" or call to adventure might not be a person, but a thing, or a something from a flashback.
It's also why Bioware historically have used the "oh your character has amnesia and dont remember anything setup": It makes it easier to reveal things to the audience/player later.
As others have stated. Bioware games are far from good when it comes to story telling.
If you like linear stories and cardboard cut out characters then go ahead and think that Bioware are great writers. The fact is they are very far from good in any shape or form.
If Bioware is not 'good enough' in your eyes, I'd love to hear what game devs does.
Obisidian is the only other game company I'd say is on par with Bioware in terms of story telling. The issue is that Obisidian fails at every other level compared to BW though.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I'm not particular impressed with Bioware's story-telling, either. Don't get me wrong, I think they are decent but it's not anything that I felt was overly inspired. It's not like sitting down and reading Tolkien. What they do, however, is put alot of effort into the presentation of thier stories. Which is why I think they have the reputation they do. Even if thier stories aren't particulary inspired from a narritive sense, they are presenting them to you in a very robust and polished manner.