I’m not sure if this issue has been addressed, so I’m a throw a line into this lake of thought, and see what it reels in.
On a wide-spread acceptance level, WoW is the only real MMO universally accepted by the bulk of the industry, whether it be consumers, (Casual/Hardcore, PvP/PvE), Critics, Elitists, Haters, Fanboys, ect –
It has become the standard, to many’s dismay – it brought the genre out of a closet that only the most revered of us nerds knew of, to a game that even the most prominent members of society par-take in endless hours of play.
Has anyone asked the really, really.. really… hard question?
What if that was a fluke?
I have been fan of this genre longer then most, my first MMO being EQ back in the last 90s.
I was hyped for WoW mostly for one reason, I played the Warcraft IP RTS games and the notion of being the unit on the ground that I once controlled hundreds of, and visiting places I wage an epic war about was intriguing, so I followed the game’s development closely – I remember reading the articles, the reviews, the critics, the haters, the flamers, the fans, the testers, the developers, I soaked it all in like a sponge.. I was hyped.
The game was an epic success…
Since then there has only been one game to show the same pre-launch pattern, SWTORO, what I’ve been reading, from hype (whether it be empty or legit), to those who have played it and shared their thoughts, reviews, everything it reminds be of the atmosphere that existed prior to WoWs launch. It makes me giddy, hopeful, and most of all concerned for the future of the MMORPG as a Genre.
This game has all the right conditions for a perfect MMO Storm (Like WoW before it), the recipe matches… everything.. the hype, the potential, even what issues the haters are trolling about.. it’s all in the right spot for a success…so…WHAT IF IT FAILS TOO?
Then that’s it… I think that developers are going to abandon the MMORPG, maybe not all at once or in a whole, but.. lets face a few facts :
Recipe for Success (MMORPG)
Take 1 well established franchise (Warcraft, Star Wars) \ Star Wars being the most famous of IPs in the civilized markets
Add marketable game design marinated with superfluous hype, and hate balance.
Add a reputable gaming company (Blizzard, BioWare), BioWare being arguably one of the best RPG producing company.
Mix in a large production, and marketing budget ( 63M for WoW \ 80M [Maybe more?])
Add all the ingredients, and bake til the market is desperately begging for a decent MMO.
Serve at a reasonable price, best kept updated – Makes 1-20 million servings.
So if the recipe for success produces failure, then one must conclude that the MMORPG as a dish is no longer a dish people want to eat….
This is the last chance for the MMORPG to prove that WoW wasn’t a fluke, that the market is still a viable mechanism in today’s entertainment industry, we are dangerously close to becoming a closent genre again, let’s not become the Sim Genre of the next millennium.
Dude, what have you been smoking? Star Wars is one of the more valueable IPs out there but it is no where near the most famous or most valueable. Star Wars:TOR will fail or susceed on it's own merits. As for the effect on MMOs as a whole, there might be a shrug if it fails.
Personally I don't care either way.
What are YOU smoking?
Name an Entertainment IP that has a bigger following, or as made more money off various markets then Star Wars? Hell even LOTR doesn't hold a candle to it.
The movies alone made 4.2 Billion.
The closest IP I can think of is perhaps the Harry Potter IP, which made 7.4 Billion (8 films, compared to SW's 6), but aside from an equally impressive book sales (450 Mil) and meager performance in other markets, the Harry Potter IP has been price tagged at 15 Billion in value (Impressive, sure.).
I've done allot of research into looking for total IP value for Star Wars, I can’t find one… you know why?
It’s damn near immeasurable.
Hell, Motorola has to pay out money every time they sell a Motorola droid because the Star Wars IP has a patent on the word “Droid”, I do not foresee an “HTC Deatheater” being released anytime soon.
Star Wars has a very successful literature market as well; there is a HUGE list of books that fall under the IP of Star Wars.
There are even Sub-Set IPs : Clone Wars (The New Age Cartoon / MMORPG Targeted at children, The Old Republic, Post-Empire, ect).
This is the 3rd MMORPG for the Star Wars IP.
They have been making Star Wars IP Video games as long as the video game industry has been around.
T.V. Shows, Direct to DVD Movies, Bed sheets, blankets, Costumes, Collectibles, Comic Books, Documentaries, Statues, clothing, shoes, SW-Theme ANYTHING.
The list goes on, like I said I can’t find a figure, as one doesn’t exist, I do remember watching a documentary that estimated it in the HUNDREDS of billions, considering the IP has been around for 44 or so years, that’s something I’ll consider as plausible.
Now let’s talk fan-base, since you state that SW isn’t the most famous? I think you are trying to say most popular..
Anyways
Which IP has more fans? Seriousily?
Not Harry Potter, as majority of the Potter fans are ALSO Star Wars fan, and those who never got into Potter (like myself) are been Star Wars fans
Like I said before, Star Wars spans 44+ years, Star Wars fans span a HUGE generational gap, for example..
My uncle who was born in the 60s grew up on the original Star Wars, he is “That Uncle” that makes Star Wars references during casual conversations:
“It’s like that time Obi-Wan told Luke.. No uncle, cleaning my room has anything to do with using the force, now STFU”.
I was born in 1986 (I’m 25), I was born when Star Wars start to become a children’s brand, with the toys, and video games – However we grew up, and in our teens, to early adult life we grew up on the new trilogy, and the more advances Star Wars games (Battlefront, squad commander, Star Wars Galaxies, Knights of the Old republic, Force Unleashed), that hit SO many people of my generation KOTOR made the X-BOX what it is today.
Now this younger generation is getting into the Clone Wars series that has surfaces a few years back, there is even a Children MMORPG (similar to Free realms but for Star Wars).
You can’t be a nerd without being a Star Wars fan, regardless what you are into.
Star Trek nerds are Star Wars Nerds.
BSG nerds are Star Wars Nerds.
Potter Nerds are Star Wars Nerds.
Anime Nerds… well, they are just creepy, but also Star Wars Nerds.
This game is the antithesis of the last hope for me. Based on all information known to me at the moment, it is very much opposite of what I look for in an mmo. So you speak for many, but not for all.
Even if SWTOR is a failure, I don't see it affecting the niche mmo market. Indie developers just need to realize that there are a ton of people exactly like me waiting for a great mmo to come along, that isn't like SWTOR in the obvious ways. We're still waiting, and the success or failure of SWTOR won't affect that.
Name an Entertainment IP that has a bigger following, or as made more money off various markets then Star Wars? Hell even LOTR doesn't hold a candle to it.
Divion, I've got an IP bigger than StarWars.
The Bible. Well, okay, I'll grant that nobody currently holds the rights on it, but that's cool, because it just means you can use it for free. Bonus, right?
Look at how many people DEFINE themselves by whether or not they follow the Bible. Heck, not just Judeo-Christians, but half the Atheists are specifically non-Christian atheists (As most of their arguments seem to be applied directly to Christians.)
Also, how many people got killed over Star Wars? Not nearly as many, I'll bet. How many people in the world are familiar with the Bible at least peripheraly, compared to Star Wars? You want to talk about something that spans generations... there are whole BOOKSTORES dedicated to the Bible and spinoff works.
Good luck finding a bunch of Star Wars bookstores.
I think we've got a winner here.
(Also, I'm okay with Star Wars, but I don't know if I would go so far as to call myself a fan. When I look at the Star Wars things I own, nothing is more recent than the toys from the FIRST three movies. Well, and one copy of Lego Star Wars, but I think that just shows I love Legos. There are plenty of people who actively dislike Star Wars. The idea that Star Wars is synonymous with nerd is ridiculous.
It's not even that well written of a series, in any of its incarnations. I'd be sad if that is the best that SF/Fantasy had to offer. Most mainstream sure, maybe, but that's like saying McDonalds is the pinnacle of food, and people who love food love McDonalds.)
Look at how many people DEFINE themselves by whether or not they follow the Bible. Heck, not just Judeo-Christians, but half the Atheists are specifically non-Christian atheists (As most of their arguments seem to be applied directly to Christians.)
Also, how many people got killed over Star Wars? Not nearly as many, I'll bet. How many people in the world are familiar with the Bible at least peripheraly, compared to Star Wars? You want to talk about something that spans generations... there are whole BOOKSTORES dedicated to the Bible and spinoff works.
Good luck finding a bunch of Star Wars bookstores.
I think we've got a winner here.
(Also, I'm okay with Star Wars, but I don't know if I would go so far as to call myself a fan. When I look at the Star Wars things I own, nothing is more recent than the toys from the FIRST three movies. Well, and one copy of Lego Star Wars, but I think that just shows I love Legos. There are plenty of people who actively dislike Star Wars. The idea that Star Wars is synonymous with nerd is ridiculous.
It's not even that well written of a series, in any of its incarnations. I'd be sad if that is the best that SF/Fantasy had to offer. Most mainstream sure, maybe, but that's like saying McDonalds is the pinnacle of food, and people who love food love McDonalds.)
I'll ignore the Bible comment, I can't take that seriously. Lets just cut to the chase though, name one IP that has done as well generationally? I can't think of many, maybe The Wizard of OZ or tales of King Arthur. Very few IP's carry such weight over generation gaps like Star Wars has, very few even attempt to.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
This is the last chance for the MMORPG to prove that WoW wasn’t a fluke, that the market is still a viable mechanism in today’s entertainment industry, we are dangerously close to becoming a closent genre again, let’s not become the Sim Genre of the next millennium.
I think you're right, but only partially.
SWTOR is indeed the MMO industry's biggest, best attempt at showing/proving that the themepark design model that WoW instigated is as valid and attractive to the mainstream mass nowadays as it was when WoW hit the scene. I mean, you can't top that, one of the best game companies around developing it, one of the most wellknown, biggest IP and one of the biggest publisher behind it.
If this isn't enough to have a longterm, sustainable success that trumps other MMO's except WoW, then WoW was indeed a perfect storm, and other design approaches have to be found because if SWTOR can't make the themepark model work to a degree of success of WoW, then the themepark model isn't enough, at least not anymore.
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that MMO's become a closet genre again, there are some other MMO's upcoming that have a very good chance of becoming torchbearers and ambassadors for the MMO genre. Sure, it'll probably mean that if SWTOR would really fail that the MMO market will shrink, since WoW was actually the only MMORPG that truly penetrated the public mainstream mass awareness outside of the MMO playerbase. But with the advent of the other MMO's that'll also appear the next few years, I don't think that the fall will go all the way down to MMO's becoming an obscure niche genre.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well I'm a kind of Star Trek and Stargate kind of guy, really. Those IPs are pretty big, aren't they? At least I think they are... Whatever happened to Stargate Online, anyway?
And I think a bible-inspired MMO could be awesome. Quests could include collecting foreskins, killing giants with small stones, pillaging villages and raping their populations, getting your very own slave companion and maybe running into Jesus himself in a storyline quest, LOTRO style.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
I'll ignore the Bible comment, I can't take that seriously. Lets just cut to the chase though, name one IP that has done as well generationally? I can't think of many, maybe The Wizard of OZ or tales of Kind Arthur. Very few IP's carry such weight over generation gaps like Star Wars has, very few even attempt to.
The fact that you don't see the immense weight that the Bible has had culturally, especially in Western civilization is kind of weird to me.
It has literally altered the way vast majorities of the population think. ... and if you don't think it's part of the entertainment industry, just look at all the movies, cartoons and books based off of it. You can even see echoes of it in other things, like the Matrix. It's just a real culture changer, and has put its roots so deep you apparently can't even see it. The only thing I can think of that even approaches it in western culture would be the Greeks and everything they added.
Also, Star Wars hasn't even been around as long as I have, so comparing it to The Wizard of Oz or ESPECIALLY the tales of King Arthur seems bizarre to me.
How about the works of Shakespeare? Just look at all the spinoffs of that. Just the various variations of Romeo and Juliet alone would probably earn at least as much money as the Star Wars movies. It's another worldwide, culture changing phenomenon. So far as we know, 50 years from now people will be 'Star Wars what? Oh yeah. That fad, back when people had no taste. COuld you believe people back then? They still wore PANTS. Old people so crazy.'
Star Wars is big in pop culture, but it's a relatively modern phenomenon that has benefitted from current entertainment mediums and the concept of the spinoff. These older series and books have much deeper, richer roots in our culture.
Other stories you say? How about the stories of Hans Christian Anderson? Or the brother Grimm? Aesop's fables? Look at all the spinoffs from those. Or hey, since we're talking about spinoff stories, what about Disney as an IP juggernaut? Mickey Mouse is a monster. ... and far more culturally acceptable to wear on your T-shirt as an adult than Princess Leia.
This is the last chance for the MMORPG to prove that WoW wasn’t a fluke, that the market is still a viable mechanism in today’s entertainment industry, we are dangerously close to becoming a closent genre again, let’s not become the Sim Genre of the next millennium.
I think you're right, but only partially.
SWTOR is indeed the MMO industry's biggest, best attempt at showing/proving that the themepark design model that WoW instigated is as valid and attractive to the mainstream mass nowadays as it was when WoW hit the scene. I mean, you can't top that, one of the best game companies around developing it, one of the most wellknown, biggest IP and one of the biggest publisher behind it.
If this isn't enough to have a longterm, sustainable success that trumps other MMO's except WoW, then WoW was indeed a perfect storm, and other design approaches have to be found because if SWTOR can't make the themepark model work to a degree of success of WoW, then the themepark model isn't enough, at least not anymore.
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that MMO's become a closet genre again, there are some other MMO's upcoming that have a very good chance of becoming torchbearers and ambassadors for the MMO genre. Sure, it'll probably mean that if SWTOR would really fail that the MMO market will shrink, since WoW was actually the only MMORPG that truly penetrated the public mainstream mass awareness outside of the MMO playerbase. But with the advent of the other MMO's that'll also appear the next few years, I don't think that the fall will go all the way down to MMO's becoming an obscure niche genre.
I love you.
You drank in the truth behind what I was conveying, and maturely found a way to open a debate, I love you.
I will disagree, I don’t think it would happen all at once, but I do feel like the Genre could slowily fizzle out into a niche genre – Similar to what i see has happened to the Simulation Genre, that Genre in the mid-late 90s was HUGE, now it’s a niche genre, I remember when buying all the cool controls, flight-wheels, pedals for Flight Sim, coupled with 3-4 monitor Set-up was huge… or Sim-City, Sim-Ant, Civilization, The Sims, ect..
There was a MMOSim released not that long ago, called Cities XL, and it was essentially a Sim-City online, it failed, and became a Single Player only game (Still fun to play.) that Genre is essentially dead, when it once thrived much like the MMORPG does, now it’s a niche genre, played by enthusiasts, and nostalgics.
@ The Bible comment, I won’t even get involved with that, as I find it to be a path to a Temp Ban.
@ The Star Wars fan doesn’t mean nerd statement, if you like Star Wars, you are a nerd, or a nerd in denial, either way, NERDS ROCK!
I'll ignore the Bible comment, I can't take that seriously. Lets just cut to the chase though, name one IP that has done as well generationally? I can't think of many, maybe The Wizard of OZ or tales of Kind Arthur. Very few IP's carry such weight over generation gaps like Star Wars has, very few even attempt to.
The fact that you don't see the immense weight that the Bible has had culturally, especially in Western civilization is kind of weird to me.
It has literally altered the way vast majorities of the population think. ... and if you don't think it's part of the entertainment industry, just look at all the movies, cartoons and books based off of it. You can even see echoes of it in other things, like the Matrix. It's just a real culture changer, and has put its roots so deep you apparently can't even see it. The only thing I can think of that even approaches it in western culture would be the Greeks and everything they added.
Also, Star Wars hasn't even been around as long as I have, so comparing it to The Wizard of Oz or ESPECIALLY the tales of King Arthur seems bizarre to me.
How about the works of Shakespeare? Just look at all the spinoffs of that. Just the various variations of Romeo and Juliet alone would probably earn at least as much money as the Star Wars movies. It's another worldwide, culture changing phenomenon. So far as we know, 50 years from now people will be 'Star Wars what? Oh yeah. That fad, back when people had no taste. COuld you believe people back then? They still wore PANTS. Old people so crazy.'
Star Wars is big in pop culture, but it's a relatively modern phenomenon that has benefitted from current entertainment mediums and the concept of the spinoff. These older series and books have much deeper, richer roots in our culture.
Other stories you say? How about the stories of Hans Christian Anderson? Or the brother Grimm? Aesop's fables? Look at all the spinoffs from those. Or hey, since we're talking about spinoff stories, what about Disney as an IP juggernaut? Mickey Mouse is a monster. ... and far more culturally acceptable to wear on your T-shirt as an adult than Princess Leia.
Well there's a difference between religion and entertainment, which is why I didn't take that seriously.
As for your actual replies, sure fables have been used as childrens stories for ages, though there's a difference between fables and Movies. Fables are ingrained in a lot of things, from books to schooling. I'm finding your reply to be pretty pretentious though, as you seemed to be answering to be a smartass, rather than actually think about the question.
I didn't say it is the only IP to break generation gaps, I said it's one of very few that have. Disney is the only reply in here that remotely answers the question I asked. If you don't want to answer a question seriously why bother answering at all?
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
@ The Bible comment, I won’t even get involved with that, as I find it to be a path to a Temp Ban.
@ The Star Wars fan doesn’t mean nerd statement, if you like Star Wars, you are a nerd, or a nerd in denial, either way, NERDS ROCK!
I'm curious how you'd get banned for responding to that. Are you also worried about getting banned by responding to the mention of Shakespeare?
Also, I'm not saying Star Wars people can't be nerds, I'm saying that you can NOT like Star Wars (Or at least, find it merely passable), and still be a nerd. I don't think there's many people who would accuse me of not being a nerd.
I have bookshelves full of science fiction, fantasy and comics. Oddly devoid of Star Wars, though.
Well I'm a kind of Star Trek and Stargate kind of guy, really. Those IPs are pretty big, aren't they? At least I think they are... Whatever happened to Stargate Online, anyway?
And I think a bible-inspired MMO could be awesome. Quests could include collecting foreskins, killing giants with small stones, pillaging villages and raping their populations, getting your very own slave companion and maybe running into Jesus himself in a storyline quest, LOTRO style.
I'll ignore the Bible comment, I can't take that seriously. Lets just cut to the chase though, name one IP that has done as well generationally? I can't think of many, maybe The Wizard of OZ or tales of Kind Arthur. Very few IP's carry such weight over generation gaps like Star Wars has, very few even attempt to.
The fact that you don't see the immense weight that the Bible has had culturally, especially in Western civilization is kind of weird to me.
It has literally altered the way vast majorities of the population think. ... and if you don't think it's part of the entertainment industry, just look at all the movies, cartoons and books based off of it. You can even see echoes of it in other things, like the Matrix. It's just a real culture changer, and has put its roots so deep you apparently can't even see it. The only thing I can think of that even approaches it in western culture would be the Greeks and everything they added.
Also, Star Wars hasn't even been around as long as I have, so comparing it to The Wizard of Oz or ESPECIALLY the tales of King Arthur seems bizarre to me.
How about the works of Shakespeare? Just look at all the spinoffs of that. Just the various variations of Romeo and Juliet alone would probably earn at least as much money as the Star Wars movies. It's another worldwide, culture changing phenomenon. So far as we know, 50 years from now people will be 'Star Wars what? Oh yeah. That fad, back when people had no taste. COuld you believe people back then? They still wore PANTS. Old people so crazy.'
Star Wars is big in pop culture, but it's a relatively modern phenomenon that has benefitted from current entertainment mediums and the concept of the spinoff. These older series and books have much deeper, richer roots in our culture.
Other stories you say? How about the stories of Hans Christian Anderson? Or the brother Grimm? Aesop's fables? Look at all the spinoffs from those. Or hey, since we're talking about spinoff stories, what about Disney as an IP juggernaut? Mickey Mouse is a monster. ... and far more culturally acceptable to wear on your T-shirt as an adult than Princess Leia.
Most of those examples you provided made me chuckle…
Yes.. aside from being forced into learning Shakespeare in high-school, I doubt most of us are “fans”, and I further doubt there are monetary values to assign to it, that would impress.
Shakespeare is not an IP neither, well I’m not sure if you can IP his works, does Shakespeare have an estate that makes intellectual claims to his works? I have no idea, would be interesting to know, however Shakespeare is an author, not an IP, if you consider his works, something along the lines of Romeo and Juliet could be considered an IP, I suppose…. Or Hamlet, but not HIM.
That’s like saying George Lucas is an IP, he is not, Lucas Arts is a company, he is a person, Star Wars is his IP.
Allthough you did raise an interesting point as to Disney as an IP.
AGAIN, Disney was a person, his company was named as such – Now as an IP Mickey Mouse is conceptually an IP, but it doesn’t hold weight to Star Wars.
If you combined ALL of Disney’s hundreds (if not thousands of IPs) into 1 then yes it would be greater than Star Wars, but like I said, that’s if you mis-assume that Disney is 1 IP, when it’s hundreds, Mickey alone can not stand before the force.
Food for though, what kinda empire would you have if you had…
George Lucas + Gene Roddenberry + J.J. Abrams + Tolkien + J.K Rowling = ??
@ The Bible comment, I won’t even get involved with that, as I find it to be a path to a Temp Ban.
@ The Star Wars fan doesn’t mean nerd statement, if you like Star Wars, you are a nerd, or a nerd in denial, either way, NERDS ROCK!
I'm curious how you'd get banned for responding to that. Are you also worried about getting banned by responding to the mention of Shakespeare?
Also, I'm not saying Star Wars people can't be nerds, I'm saying that you can NOT like Star Wars (Or at least, find it merely passable), and still be a nerd. I don't think there's many people who would accuse me of not being a nerd.
I have bookshelves full of science fiction, fantasy and comics. Oddly devoid of Star Wars, though.
It leads down a path, that would turn into a discussion that in some way i'd know i'd break the rules (At some point.)
Well there's a difference between religion and entertainment, which is why I didn't take that seriously.
As for your actual replies, sure fables have been used as childrens stories for ages, though there's a difference between fables and Movies. Fables are ingrained in a lot of things, from books to schooling. I'm finding your reply to be pretty pretentious though, as you seemed to be answering to be a smartass, rather than actually think about the question.
I didn't say it is the only IP to break generation gaps, I said it's one of very few that have. Disney is the only reply in here that remotely answers the question I asked. If you don't want to answer a question seriously why bother answering at all?
... and I'm saying that Star Wars is so young as an IP, that it's weird to think of it as bridging generation gaps, when if you look at the fans of it, the vast majority falls within a relatively tiny timespan.
... and religion can be entertainment. I mean, have you ever read the Bible? There is some hilarious stuff in there! Random children being mauled by she-bears for insulting bald men. That's just awesome.
... obviously I just have a much more open concept of what an entertainment ip consists of, I guess. I don't see how fables don't count as entertainment IPs, and it's like you've never watched the billion and one Grimm's Fairy tales movies out there. From live action to animated.
... but that's why I gave a sort of shotgun answer, so you could find the level at which you wish to engage and which you're willing to accept a defition. At least you included Disney.
I guess if you define things really narrowly, it's a lot easier to say 'This is the #1 in the really narrow definition I'm using'.
Well I'm a kind of Star Trek and Stargate kind of guy, really. Those IPs are pretty big, aren't they? At least I think they are... Whatever happened to Stargate Online, anyway?
And I think a bible-inspired MMO could be awesome. Quests could include collecting foreskins, killing giants with small stones, pillaging villages and raping their populations, getting your very own slave companion and maybe running into Jesus himself in a storyline quest, LOTRO style.
I'm going to assume that you are high..
Oh, I wish. Just trying (and failing) to being funny. A bible-based MMO would have to be adult only anyway in order to be accurate, and lots of stores don't sell those so it would fail pretty hard.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
Well I'm a kind of Star Trek and Stargate kind of guy, really. Those IPs are pretty big, aren't they? At least I think they are... Whatever happened to Stargate Online, anyway?
And I think a bible-inspired MMO could be awesome. Quests could include collecting foreskins, killing giants with small stones, pillaging villages and raping their populations, getting your very own slave companion and maybe running into Jesus himself in a storyline quest, LOTRO style.
I'm going to assume that you are high..
Oh, I wish. Just trying (and failing) to being funny. A bible-based MMO would have to be adult only anyway in order to be accurate, and lots of stores don't sell those so it would fail pretty hard.
I think these people really don't understand just how freaking EPIC and bloodily violent the Bible is. Sure, okay, most of the New Testament is a lot more tame, but the violence and weird sex in the Bible is way over the top at times.
Fun and utterly useless trivia - The Japanese word often used for masturbation 'Onani' comes from Onan, who died in the Bible because... well, I guess people should look it up since I don't want to be banned for lowering the tone of the discussion.
It's like people get so hung up on the religious aspect of the Bible they can't look at it as writing.
I'll ignore the Bible comment, I can't take that seriously. Lets just cut to the chase though, name one IP that has done as well generationally? I can't think of many, maybe The Wizard of OZ or tales of Kind Arthur. Very few IP's carry such weight over generation gaps like Star Wars has, very few even attempt to.
The fact that you don't see the immense weight that the Bible has had culturally, especially in Western civilization is kind of weird to me.
It has literally altered the way vast majorities of the population think. ... and if you don't think it's part of the entertainment industry, just look at all the movies, cartoons and books based off of it. You can even see echoes of it in other things, like the Matrix. It's just a real culture changer, and has put its roots so deep you apparently can't even see it. The only thing I can think of that even approaches it in western culture would be the Greeks and everything they added.
Also, Star Wars hasn't even been around as long as I have, so comparing it to The Wizard of Oz or ESPECIALLY the tales of King Arthur seems bizarre to me.
How about the works of Shakespeare? Just look at all the spinoffs of that. Just the various variations of Romeo and Juliet alone would probably earn at least as much money as the Star Wars movies. It's another worldwide, culture changing phenomenon. So far as we know, 50 years from now people will be 'Star Wars what? Oh yeah. That fad, back when people had no taste. COuld you believe people back then? They still wore PANTS. Old people so crazy.'
Star Wars is big in pop culture, but it's a relatively modern phenomenon that has benefitted from current entertainment mediums and the concept of the spinoff. These older series and books have much deeper, richer roots in our culture.
Other stories you say? How about the stories of Hans Christian Anderson? Or the brother Grimm? Aesop's fables? Look at all the spinoffs from those. Or hey, since we're talking about spinoff stories, what about Disney as an IP juggernaut? Mickey Mouse is a monster. ... and far more culturally acceptable to wear on your T-shirt as an adult than Princess Leia.
Most of those examples you provided made me chuckle…
Yes.. aside from being forced into learning Shakespeare in high-school, I doubt most of us are “fans”, and I further doubt there are monetary values to assign to it, that would impress.
Shakespeare is not an IP neither, well I’m not sure if you can IP his works, does Shakespeare have an estate that makes intellectual claims to his works? I have no idea, would be interesting to know, however Shakespeare is an author, not an IP, if you consider his works, something along the lines of Romeo and Juliet could be considered an IP, I suppose…. Or Hamlet, but not HIM.
That’s like saying George Lucas is an IP, he is not, Lucas Arts is a company, he is a person, Star Wars is his IP.
Allthough you did raise an interesting point as to Disney as an IP.
AGAIN, Disney was a person, his company was named as such – Now as an IP Mickey Mouse is conceptually an IP, but it doesn’t hold weight to Star Wars.
If you combined ALL of Disney’s hundreds (if not thousands of IPs) into 1 then yes it would be greater than Star Wars, but like I said, that’s if you mis-assume that Disney is 1 IP, when it’s hundreds, Mickey alone can not stand before the force.
Food for though, what kinda empire would you have if you had…
George Lucas + Gene Roddenberry + J.J. Abrams + Tolkien + J.K Rowling = ??
Most of those examples you provided made me chuckle…
Yes.. aside from being forced into learning Shakespeare in high-school, I doubt most of us are “fans”, and I further doubt there are monetary values to assign to it, that would impress.
Shakespeare is not an IP neither, well I’m not sure if you can IP his works, does Shakespeare have an estate that makes intellectual claims to his works? I have no idea, would be interesting to know, however Shakespeare is an author, not an IP, if you consider his works, something along the lines of Romeo and Juliet could be considered an IP, I suppose…. Or Hamlet, but not HIM.
That’s like saying George Lucas is an IP, he is not, Lucas Arts is a company, he is a person, Star Wars is his IP.
Allthough you did raise an interesting point as to Disney as an IP.
AGAIN, Disney was a person, his company was named as such – Now as an IP Mickey Mouse is conceptually an IP, but it doesn’t hold weight to Star Wars.
If you combined ALL of Disney’s hundreds (if not thousands of IPs) into 1 then yes it would be greater than Star Wars, but like I said, that’s if you mis-assume that Disney is 1 IP, when it’s hundreds, Mickey alone can not stand before the force.
I always just thought of 'The Works of Shakespeare' as being just some sort of overarching work, possibly because he's just so damn old and dead. Even if you ONLY did Romeo and Juliet though, all the iterations of that are... pretty impressive. I think any money made by spinoffs like West Side Story should count towards the tally. I also consider 'money making' to be a pretty shallow way to look at just how much influence an IP actually has, culturally. Some of the older stories just simply can't compete, because of the way the economy and the entertainment business has changed.
Uhm, and all of Disney is obviously totally one IP, since the characters always go visit each other. The princesses totally have parties together, and anybody who has played Kingdom Hearts could tell you... *cough*
... okay, that might be stretching a little bit (Though technically it's sort of true, since you can find books where the characters crossover...) , but I feel all the Disney animated movies are about as closely related as half the Star Wars random spinoffs out there. Maybe I'm just a little critical of the vast mass of Star Wars.
... and I'm saying that Star Wars is so young as an IP, that it's weird to think of it as bridging generation gaps, when if you look at the fans of it, the vast majority falls within a relatively tiny timespan.
... and religion can be entertainment. I mean, have you ever read the Bible? There is some hilarious stuff in there! Random children being mauled by she-bears for insulting bald men. That's just awesome.
... obviously I just have a much more open concept of what an entertainment ip consists of, I guess. I don't see how fables don't count as entertainment IPs, and it's like you've never watched the billion and one Grimm's Fairy tales movies out there. From live action to animated.
... but that's why I gave a sort of shotgun answer, so you could find the level at which you wish to engage and which you're willing to accept a defition. At least you included Disney.
I guess if you define things really narrowly, it's a lot easier to say 'This is the #1 in the really narrow definition I'm using'.
You know you're just being obstinate and purposely derailing the thread topic for the fun of it, right? I so wish you'd do that far more often in GW2 threads and not mostly/solely in SWTOR threads
As for IP, let's take a look at how many big budget games have been made of the IP's around, how popular they've been: Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, they've known plenty. Regarding the bible or the Koran or the Indian vedas, not so much.
So, purely looking at games made per IP in the past decennia and the popularity of those IP's in the gaming genre, I'd say that Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Dungeons & Dragons are the biggest by far (I could've forgotten a few).
Does that mean that other IP's aren't as game-applicable or have entertainment value as much as those mentioned? Certainly not, for example the Marvel Universe, DC comics IP and Harry Potter are as big IP's as those others mentioned. You could even say that Disney is as big an IP, even if the gaming target audience is smaller (younger). However, IP's like the bible or Koran as game entertainment aren't.
In short, gaming history of the past decennia has shown which IP's are apparently the most appealing and popular for games, hence they're the biggest IP's when it comes down to games.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well there's a difference between religion and entertainment, which is why I didn't take that seriously.
As for your actual replies, sure fables have been used as childrens stories for ages, though there's a difference between fables and Movies. Fables are ingrained in a lot of things, from books to schooling. I'm finding your reply to be pretty pretentious though, as you seemed to be answering to be a smartass, rather than actually think about the question.
I didn't say it is the only IP to break generation gaps, I said it's one of very few that have. Disney is the only reply in here that remotely answers the question I asked. If you don't want to answer a question seriously why bother answering at all?
... and I'm saying that Star Wars is so young as an IP, that it's weird to think of it as bridging generation gaps, when if you look at the fans of it, the vast majority falls within a relatively tiny timespan.
... and religion can be entertainment. I mean, have you ever read the Bible? There is some hilarious stuff in there! Random children being mauled by she-bears for insulting bald men. That's just awesome.
... obviously I just have a much more open concept of what an entertainment ip consists of, I guess. I don't see how fables don't count as entertainment IPs, and it's like you've never watched the billion and one Grimm's Fairy tales movies out there. From live action to animated.
... but that's why I gave a sort of shotgun answer, so you could find the level at which you wish to engage and which you're willing to accept a defition. At least you included Disney.
I guess if you define things really narrowly, it's a lot easier to say 'This is the #1 in the really narrow definition I'm using'.
I'm 33 my little brother is 12, he loves Star Wars, that's a generation gap is it not? If you want to broaden the spectrum fine, lets talk other forms of entertainment. Music for the most part changes drastically per generation, Video-games have changed a lot over different generations. In both of these venues of entertainment, there's a style that's typically liked by one generation and not by the next. That's just how things are.
Now look back at the things you had to name to compare to Star Wars:
Popular fables, the biggest name in entertainment (Disney) and The Bible. This alone shows Star Wars is a breed of it's own as far as Sci-fi-Fantasy entertainment goes.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
People play a game because it is fun, less because of an IP.
Minecraft is a game about placing blocks to build anything you can imagine. At night monsters come out, make sure to build a shelter before that happens. It also has music by C418! So far 11,504,184 people have registered and 3,016,761 people bought the game.
Did you ever see an advertisment for Minecraft? Edit: Damn, I can actually counter my own post: Did I ever see a commercial for facebook?
You know you're just being obstinate and purposely derailing the thread topic for the fun of it, right? I so wish you'd do that far more often in GW2 threads and not mostly/solely in SWTOR threads
As for IP, let's take a look at how many big budget games have been made of the IP's around, how popular they've been: Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, they've known plenty. Regarding the bible or the Koran or the Indian vedas, not so much.
So, purely looking at games made per IP in the past decennia and the popularity of those IP's in the gaming genre, I'd say that Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Dungeons & Dragons are the biggest by far (I could've forgotten a few).
Does that mean that other IP's aren't as game-applicable or have entertainment value as much as those mentioned? Certainly not, for example the Marvel Universe, DC comics IP and Harry Potter are as big IP's as those others mentioned. You could even say that Disney is as big an IP, even if the gaming target audience is smaller (younger). However, IP's like the bible or Koran as game entertainment aren't.
In short, gaming history of the past decennia has shown which IP's are apparently the most appealing and popular for games, hence they're the biggest IP's when it comes down to games.
Nah, I'm just disagreeing with a point. Oddly enough, I was just about to add Marvel and DC, because they suddenly occured to me. ... and those truly are IPs, since all the various Marvel and DC series are under one overarching world (Well, one each, for the respective comic lines, obviously)
I think if you added up all the DC or Marvel games and movies, you'd end up with a total that is at least in the ballpark of Star Wars. I won't argue that Star Wars is huge. I won't argue that it's amoney maker. I'm just not sure '#1 entertainment IP of all time' is really a valid point.
(Trust me, if people said things like that in a GW thread, I'd be more than happy to natter on about it. I LIKE arguing about things for the sake of clarity.)
I think the one lesson we can all take from all the various IP games (Marvel, DC, Harry Potter, Star Wars, LotRO and so on) is that... oddly enough, they're not the biggest games.
They're big games, yes.
Not the biggest. Star Wars shooter? Not the biggest shooters of all time. Star Wars racing games? Not the biggest racing games of all time. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Star Wars any-genre game that is the biggest of its genre. LotRO brawlers? Not the biggest brawlers of all time. Batman Arkham Asylum? Big game, but there are bigger, of similar types.
I'm responding to this because the whole idea of the Star Wars IP being so big is actually a pet peeve of mine.
I am willing to argue that the quality of the game is FAR more important than the IP. An IP can help drag people in, but in the end, it's the quality of the game itself that will really matter. ... and if the quality is great enough, it will drag people in and KEEP them in.
All the biggest games of all time are original IPs. You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.
This is not me saying 'SW:ToR will fail', this is me saying 'If SW:ToR really, truly succeeds, it will do so because it is a kick ass game that people want to play'. The IP? It's practically a side thing.
Can anybody really argue that Warcraft is a bigger IP (Pre MMO) than Lord of the Rings, DC universe and the Matrix?
SW:ToR will live or die on the strength of itself as a game. The IP is purely secondary. If the IP is the primary part, then the game is a pile of crap. That's how it's always worked with IP video games. Good game first. If you bring in customers through the IP, cool, bonus. That isn't what's going to make it a good game though, and you can make a much better selling game with a new IP and a better game.
Originally posted by Distopia
Now look back at the things you had to name to compare to Star Wars:
Popular fables, the biggest name in entertainment (Disney) and The Bible. This alone shows Star Wars is a breed of it's own as far as Sci-fi-Fantasy entertainment goes.
Won't argue that Star Wars is a monster IP. It's kermongous. It's one of the biggest out there. Still not sure it's the biggest. Curious how it stacks up against Marvel/DC. Harry Potter has managed to do more movie sales even, and it's a baby IP, it came out after I was already an adult. That's REALLY new.
Still, you have to pull out the really big guns to compete with Star Wars, it's a top class IP, I'm just not sure I would agree it's Teh Biggest.
Now look back at the things you had to name to compare to Star Wars:
Popular fables, the biggest name in entertainment (Disney) and The Bible. This alone shows Star Wars is a breed of it's own as far as Sci-fi-Fantasy entertainment goes.
Won't argue that Star Wars is a monster IP. It's kermongous. It's one of the biggest out there. Still not sure it's the biggest. Curious how it stacks up against Marvel/DC. Harry Potter has managed to do more movie sales even, and it's a baby IP, it came out after I was already an adult. That's REALLY new.
Still, you have to pull out the really big guns to compete with Star Wars, it's a top class IP, I'm just not sure I would agree it's Teh Biggest.
I wouldn't say it's the biggest by an stretch, I'm just making a point that it's one of the rare breed of IP's that have gained substantial growth by many different demographics. This isn't something that happens all that much, especially in this day and age with so many rehashed ideas. It's not even an original concept, and it's still done very well.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
I wouldn't say it's the biggest by an stretch, I'm just making a point that it's one of the rare breed of IP's that have gained substantial growth by many different demographics. This isn't something that happens all that much, especially in this day and age with so many rehashed ideas. It's not even an original concept, and it's still done very well.
Well, I was mostly arguing against Divion about the whole 'Not the biggest entertainment IP'.
... and yeah, it's a pretty big, diverse IP. It's really popular. It does appeal to new people. Dunno if it'll have long term legs (How many people remember the OTHER big name playwright of Shakespeare's time, the guy who was his biggest competitor and wrote about as much? Yeah. I thought so.), because I'm not psychic. No specific reason for it NOT to, but humanity as a mass are not perfectly predictable.
I actually look at me talking about Star Wars IP not being the biggest point of SW:ToR as me DEFENDING the game. That's right. It's me trying to make SW:ToR look better.
Because honestly, if somebody told me the best feature of a game was the IP, I'd assume it was a piece of trash, just like the vast majority of IP based games. (Yes. Including many Star Wars games. God, there were some horrible Star Wars games)
Ideally, shouldn't people be saying 'SW:ToR is so f'in badass, you won't even CARE that it's Star Wars!'?
All the biggest games of all time are original IPs. You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.
? I don't disagree with the other arguments you wrote, but regarding this, sure, if you pick the top 20 games of all time there'll probably be a lot of original IP's, from Pac-Man, to Mario 3D to Zelda: Ocarina of Time to Populous to Doom or Command & Conquer. However, outside of that 1 game or handful of games those original IP's have had very little impact or independent power as IP (with the expection of Zelda and Mario).
Big IP's like Star Wars, DC/Marvel and Lord of the Rings and D&D have had a far larger allure and presence over the course of years to decennia and throughout various entertainment media, from movies to books to tv shows to games.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
What are YOU smoking?
Name an Entertainment IP that has a bigger following, or as made more money off various markets then Star Wars? Hell even LOTR doesn't hold a candle to it.
The movies alone made 4.2 Billion.
The closest IP I can think of is perhaps the Harry Potter IP, which made 7.4 Billion (8 films, compared to SW's 6), but aside from an equally impressive book sales (450 Mil) and meager performance in other markets, the Harry Potter IP has been price tagged at 15 Billion in value (Impressive, sure.).
I've done allot of research into looking for total IP value for Star Wars, I can’t find one… you know why?
It’s damn near immeasurable.
Hell, Motorola has to pay out money every time they sell a Motorola droid because the Star Wars IP has a patent on the word “Droid”, I do not foresee an “HTC Deatheater” being released anytime soon.
Star Wars has a very successful literature market as well; there is a HUGE list of books that fall under the IP of Star Wars.
There are even Sub-Set IPs : Clone Wars (The New Age Cartoon / MMORPG Targeted at children, The Old Republic, Post-Empire, ect).
This is the 3rd MMORPG for the Star Wars IP.
They have been making Star Wars IP Video games as long as the video game industry has been around.
T.V. Shows, Direct to DVD Movies, Bed sheets, blankets, Costumes, Collectibles, Comic Books, Documentaries, Statues, clothing, shoes, SW-Theme ANYTHING.
The list goes on, like I said I can’t find a figure, as one doesn’t exist, I do remember watching a documentary that estimated it in the HUNDREDS of billions, considering the IP has been around for 44 or so years, that’s something I’ll consider as plausible.
Now let’s talk fan-base, since you state that SW isn’t the most famous? I think you are trying to say most popular..
Anyways
Which IP has more fans? Seriousily?
Not Harry Potter, as majority of the Potter fans are ALSO Star Wars fan, and those who never got into Potter (like myself) are been Star Wars fans
Like I said before, Star Wars spans 44+ years, Star Wars fans span a HUGE generational gap, for example..
My uncle who was born in the 60s grew up on the original Star Wars, he is “That Uncle” that makes Star Wars references during casual conversations:
“It’s like that time Obi-Wan told Luke.. No uncle, cleaning my room has anything to do with using the force, now STFU”.
I was born in 1986 (I’m 25), I was born when Star Wars start to become a children’s brand, with the toys, and video games – However we grew up, and in our teens, to early adult life we grew up on the new trilogy, and the more advances Star Wars games (Battlefront, squad commander, Star Wars Galaxies, Knights of the Old republic, Force Unleashed), that hit SO many people of my generation KOTOR made the X-BOX what it is today.
Now this younger generation is getting into the Clone Wars series that has surfaces a few years back, there is even a Children MMORPG (similar to Free realms but for Star Wars).
You can’t be a nerd without being a Star Wars fan, regardless what you are into.
Star Trek nerds are Star Wars Nerds.
BSG nerds are Star Wars Nerds.
Potter Nerds are Star Wars Nerds.
Anime Nerds… well, they are just creepy, but also Star Wars Nerds.
I typed all of this because I’m bored at work
Pretty much this.
Rawr.
Divion, I've got an IP bigger than StarWars.
The Bible. Well, okay, I'll grant that nobody currently holds the rights on it, but that's cool, because it just means you can use it for free. Bonus, right?
Look at how many people DEFINE themselves by whether or not they follow the Bible.
Heck, not just Judeo-Christians, but half the Atheists are specifically non-Christian atheists (As most of their arguments seem to be applied directly to Christians.)
Also, how many people got killed over Star Wars? Not nearly as many, I'll bet. How many people in the world are familiar with the Bible at least peripheraly, compared to Star Wars? You want to talk about something that spans generations... there are whole BOOKSTORES dedicated to the Bible and spinoff works.
Good luck finding a bunch of Star Wars bookstores.
I think we've got a winner here.
(Also, I'm okay with Star Wars, but I don't know if I would go so far as to call myself a fan. When I look at the Star Wars things I own, nothing is more recent than the toys from the FIRST three movies. Well, and one copy of Lego Star Wars, but I think that just shows I love Legos. There are plenty of people who actively dislike Star Wars. The idea that Star Wars is synonymous with nerd is ridiculous.
It's not even that well written of a series, in any of its incarnations. I'd be sad if that is the best that SF/Fantasy had to offer. Most mainstream sure, maybe, but that's like saying McDonalds is the pinnacle of food, and people who love food love McDonalds.)
I'll ignore the Bible comment, I can't take that seriously. Lets just cut to the chase though, name one IP that has done as well generationally? I can't think of many, maybe The Wizard of OZ or tales of King Arthur. Very few IP's carry such weight over generation gaps like Star Wars has, very few even attempt to.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
I think you're right, but only partially.
SWTOR is indeed the MMO industry's biggest, best attempt at showing/proving that the themepark design model that WoW instigated is as valid and attractive to the mainstream mass nowadays as it was when WoW hit the scene. I mean, you can't top that, one of the best game companies around developing it, one of the most wellknown, biggest IP and one of the biggest publisher behind it.
If this isn't enough to have a longterm, sustainable success that trumps other MMO's except WoW, then WoW was indeed a perfect storm, and other design approaches have to be found because if SWTOR can't make the themepark model work to a degree of success of WoW, then the themepark model isn't enough, at least not anymore.
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that MMO's become a closet genre again, there are some other MMO's upcoming that have a very good chance of becoming torchbearers and ambassadors for the MMO genre. Sure, it'll probably mean that if SWTOR would really fail that the MMO market will shrink, since WoW was actually the only MMORPG that truly penetrated the public mainstream mass awareness outside of the MMO playerbase. But with the advent of the other MMO's that'll also appear the next few years, I don't think that the fall will go all the way down to MMO's becoming an obscure niche genre.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well I'm a kind of Star Trek and Stargate kind of guy, really. Those IPs are pretty big, aren't they? At least I think they are... Whatever happened to Stargate Online, anyway?
And I think a bible-inspired MMO could be awesome. Quests could include collecting foreskins, killing giants with small stones, pillaging villages and raping their populations, getting your very own slave companion and maybe running into Jesus himself in a storyline quest, LOTRO style.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
The fact that you don't see the immense weight that the Bible has had culturally, especially in Western civilization is kind of weird to me.
It has literally altered the way vast majorities of the population think. ... and if you don't think it's part of the entertainment industry, just look at all the movies, cartoons and books based off of it. You can even see echoes of it in other things, like the Matrix. It's just a real culture changer, and has put its roots so deep you apparently can't even see it. The only thing I can think of that even approaches it in western culture would be the Greeks and everything they added.
Also, Star Wars hasn't even been around as long as I have, so comparing it to The Wizard of Oz or ESPECIALLY the tales of King Arthur seems bizarre to me.
How about the works of Shakespeare? Just look at all the spinoffs of that. Just the various variations of Romeo and Juliet alone would probably earn at least as much money as the Star Wars movies. It's another worldwide, culture changing phenomenon. So far as we know, 50 years from now people will be 'Star Wars what? Oh yeah. That fad, back when people had no taste. COuld you believe people back then? They still wore PANTS. Old people so crazy.'
Star Wars is big in pop culture, but it's a relatively modern phenomenon that has benefitted from current entertainment mediums and the concept of the spinoff. These older series and books have much deeper, richer roots in our culture.
Other stories you say? How about the stories of Hans Christian Anderson? Or the brother Grimm? Aesop's fables? Look at all the spinoffs from those. Or hey, since we're talking about spinoff stories, what about Disney as an IP juggernaut? Mickey Mouse is a monster.
... and far more culturally acceptable to wear on your T-shirt as an adult than Princess Leia.
I love you.
You drank in the truth behind what I was conveying, and maturely found a way to open a debate, I love you.
I will disagree, I don’t think it would happen all at once, but I do feel like the Genre could slowily fizzle out into a niche genre – Similar to what i see has happened to the Simulation Genre, that Genre in the mid-late 90s was HUGE, now it’s a niche genre, I remember when buying all the cool controls, flight-wheels, pedals for Flight Sim, coupled with 3-4 monitor Set-up was huge… or Sim-City, Sim-Ant, Civilization, The Sims, ect..
There was a MMOSim released not that long ago, called Cities XL, and it was essentially a Sim-City online, it failed, and became a Single Player only game (Still fun to play.) that Genre is essentially dead, when it once thrived much like the MMORPG does, now it’s a niche genre, played by enthusiasts, and nostalgics.
@ The Bible comment, I won’t even get involved with that, as I find it to be a path to a Temp Ban.
@ The Star Wars fan doesn’t mean nerd statement, if you like Star Wars, you are a nerd, or a nerd in denial, either way, NERDS ROCK!
Well there's a difference between religion and entertainment, which is why I didn't take that seriously.
As for your actual replies, sure fables have been used as childrens stories for ages, though there's a difference between fables and Movies. Fables are ingrained in a lot of things, from books to schooling. I'm finding your reply to be pretty pretentious though, as you seemed to be answering to be a smartass, rather than actually think about the question.
I didn't say it is the only IP to break generation gaps, I said it's one of very few that have. Disney is the only reply in here that remotely answers the question I asked. If you don't want to answer a question seriously why bother answering at all?
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
I'm curious how you'd get banned for responding to that. Are you also worried about getting banned by responding to the mention of Shakespeare?
Also, I'm not saying Star Wars people can't be nerds, I'm saying that you can NOT like Star Wars (Or at least, find it merely passable), and still be a nerd. I don't think there's many people who would accuse me of not being a nerd.
I have bookshelves full of science fiction, fantasy and comics.
Oddly devoid of Star Wars, though.
I'm going to assume that you are high..
Future: WoD, SWTOR, Arche Age, Tera (maybe), GW2.
Present: None.
Past: Eve, RIFT, UO, bunch of F2P crap.
Most of those examples you provided made me chuckle…
Yes.. aside from being forced into learning Shakespeare in high-school, I doubt most of us are “fans”, and I further doubt there are monetary values to assign to it, that would impress.
Shakespeare is not an IP neither, well I’m not sure if you can IP his works, does Shakespeare have an estate that makes intellectual claims to his works? I have no idea, would be interesting to know, however Shakespeare is an author, not an IP, if you consider his works, something along the lines of Romeo and Juliet could be considered an IP, I suppose…. Or Hamlet, but not HIM.
That’s like saying George Lucas is an IP, he is not, Lucas Arts is a company, he is a person, Star Wars is his IP.
Allthough you did raise an interesting point as to Disney as an IP.
AGAIN, Disney was a person, his company was named as such – Now as an IP Mickey Mouse is conceptually an IP, but it doesn’t hold weight to Star Wars.
If you combined ALL of Disney’s hundreds (if not thousands of IPs) into 1 then yes it would be greater than Star Wars, but like I said, that’s if you mis-assume that Disney is 1 IP, when it’s hundreds, Mickey alone can not stand before the force.
Food for though, what kinda empire would you have if you had…
George Lucas + Gene Roddenberry + J.J. Abrams + Tolkien + J.K Rowling = ??
lolz
It leads down a path, that would turn into a discussion that in some way i'd know i'd break the rules (At some point.)
... and I'm saying that Star Wars is so young as an IP, that it's weird to think of it as bridging generation gaps, when if you look at the fans of it, the vast majority falls within a relatively tiny timespan.
... and religion can be entertainment. I mean, have you ever read the Bible? There is some hilarious stuff in there! Random children being mauled by she-bears for insulting bald men. That's just awesome.
... obviously I just have a much more open concept of what an entertainment ip consists of, I guess. I don't see how fables don't count as entertainment IPs, and it's like you've never watched the billion and one Grimm's Fairy tales movies out there. From live action to animated.
... but that's why I gave a sort of shotgun answer, so you could find the level at which you wish to engage and which you're willing to accept a defition. At least you included Disney.
I guess if you define things really narrowly, it's a lot easier to say 'This is the #1 in the really narrow definition I'm using'.
Oh, I wish. Just trying (and failing) to being funny. A bible-based MMO would have to be adult only anyway in order to be accurate, and lots of stores don't sell those so it would fail pretty hard.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
I think these people really don't understand just how freaking EPIC and bloodily violent the Bible is. Sure, okay, most of the New Testament is a lot more tame, but the violence and weird sex in the Bible is way over the top at times.
Fun and utterly useless trivia - The Japanese word often used for masturbation 'Onani' comes from Onan, who died in the Bible because... well, I guess people should look it up since I don't want to be banned for lowering the tone of the discussion.
It's like people get so hung up on the religious aspect of the Bible they can't look at it as writing.
+ little known Phillip K. Dick.
Completed Films based on PKD stories
Blade Runner (1982)
Based on "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
Screamers (1995)
Based on "Second Variety"
Total Recall (1990)
Based on "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale"
Confessions d'un Barjo (French, 1992)
Based on "Confessions of a Crap Artist"
Impostor (2001)
Based on "Impostor."
Minority Report (2002)
Based on "The Minority Report."
Paycheck (December 25, 2003)
Based on "Paycheck."
A Scanner Darkly (July 7, 2006)
Based on "A Scanner Darkly"
Next (April 27, 2007)
Based on "The Golden Man"
Films in Production
The Adjustment Bureau (coming 2010)
Based on "The Adjustment Team"
King of the Elves (coming 2012)
Based on "King of the Elves"
And Total Recall is being Rebooted right now as we speak, with some major Hollywood hitters in it. (No Schwarzenegger this time though.)
I always just thought of 'The Works of Shakespeare' as being just some sort of overarching work, possibly because he's just so damn old and dead.
Even if you ONLY did Romeo and Juliet though, all the iterations of that are... pretty impressive. I think any money made by spinoffs like West Side Story should count towards the tally. 
I also consider 'money making' to be a pretty shallow way to look at just how much influence an IP actually has, culturally. Some of the older stories just simply can't compete, because of the way the economy and the entertainment business has changed.
Uhm, and all of Disney is obviously totally one IP, since the characters always go visit each other. The princesses totally have parties together, and anybody who has played Kingdom Hearts could tell you... *cough*
... okay, that might be stretching a little bit (Though technically it's sort of true, since you can find books where the characters crossover...) , but I feel all the Disney animated movies are about as closely related as half the Star Wars random spinoffs out there. Maybe I'm just a little critical of the vast mass of Star Wars.
You know you're just being obstinate and purposely derailing the thread topic for the fun of it, right?
I so wish you'd do that far more often in GW2 threads and not mostly/solely in SWTOR threads 
As for IP, let's take a look at how many big budget games have been made of the IP's around, how popular they've been: Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, they've known plenty. Regarding the bible or the Koran or the Indian vedas, not so much.
So, purely looking at games made per IP in the past decennia and the popularity of those IP's in the gaming genre, I'd say that Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Dungeons & Dragons are the biggest by far (I could've forgotten a few).
Does that mean that other IP's aren't as game-applicable or have entertainment value as much as those mentioned? Certainly not, for example the Marvel Universe, DC comics IP and Harry Potter are as big IP's as those others mentioned. You could even say that Disney is as big an IP, even if the gaming target audience is smaller (younger). However, IP's like the bible or Koran as game entertainment aren't.
In short, gaming history of the past decennia has shown which IP's are apparently the most appealing and popular for games, hence they're the biggest IP's when it comes down to games.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm 33 my little brother is 12, he loves Star Wars, that's a generation gap is it not? If you want to broaden the spectrum fine, lets talk other forms of entertainment. Music for the most part changes drastically per generation, Video-games have changed a lot over different generations. In both of these venues of entertainment, there's a style that's typically liked by one generation and not by the next. That's just how things are.
Now look back at the things you had to name to compare to Star Wars:
Popular fables, the biggest name in entertainment (Disney) and The Bible. This alone shows Star Wars is a breed of it's own as far as Sci-fi-Fantasy entertainment goes.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
People play a game because it is fun, less because of an IP.
Did you ever see an advertisment for Minecraft?Edit: Damn, I can actually counter my own post: Did I ever see a commercial for facebook?
Nah, I'm just disagreeing with a point. Oddly enough, I was just about to add Marvel and DC, because they suddenly occured to me. ... and those truly are IPs, since all the various Marvel and DC series are under one overarching world (Well, one each, for the respective comic lines, obviously)
I think if you added up all the DC or Marvel games and movies, you'd end up with a total that is at least in the ballpark of Star Wars. I won't argue that Star Wars is huge. I won't argue that it's amoney maker. I'm just not sure '#1 entertainment IP of all time' is really a valid point.
(Trust me, if people said things like that in a GW thread, I'd be more than happy to natter on about it. I LIKE arguing about things for the sake of clarity.)
I think the one lesson we can all take from all the various IP games (Marvel, DC, Harry Potter, Star Wars, LotRO and so on) is that... oddly enough, they're not the biggest games.
They're big games, yes.
Not the biggest. Star Wars shooter? Not the biggest shooters of all time. Star Wars racing games? Not the biggest racing games of all time. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Star Wars any-genre game that is the biggest of its genre. LotRO brawlers? Not the biggest brawlers of all time. Batman Arkham Asylum? Big game, but there are bigger, of similar types.
I'm responding to this because the whole idea of the Star Wars IP being so big is actually a pet peeve of mine.
I am willing to argue that the quality of the game is FAR more important than the IP. An IP can help drag people in, but in the end, it's the quality of the game itself that will really matter. ... and if the quality is great enough, it will drag people in and KEEP them in.
All the biggest games of all time are original IPs. You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.
This is not me saying 'SW:ToR will fail', this is me saying 'If SW:ToR really, truly succeeds, it will do so because it is a kick ass game that people want to play'. The IP? It's practically a side thing.
Can anybody really argue that Warcraft is a bigger IP (Pre MMO) than Lord of the Rings, DC universe and the Matrix?
SW:ToR will live or die on the strength of itself as a game. The IP is purely secondary. If the IP is the primary part, then the game is a pile of crap. That's how it's always worked with IP video games. Good game first. If you bring in customers through the IP, cool, bonus. That isn't what's going to make it a good game though, and you can make a much better selling game with a new IP and a better game.
Won't argue that Star Wars is a monster IP. It's kermongous. It's one of the biggest out there. Still not sure it's the biggest. Curious how it stacks up against Marvel/DC. Harry Potter has managed to do more movie sales even, and it's a baby IP, it came out after I was already an adult. That's REALLY new.
Still, you have to pull out the really big guns to compete with Star Wars, it's a top class IP, I'm just not sure I would agree it's Teh Biggest.
I wouldn't say it's the biggest by an stretch, I'm just making a point that it's one of the rare breed of IP's that have gained substantial growth by many different demographics. This isn't something that happens all that much, especially in this day and age with so many rehashed ideas. It's not even an original concept, and it's still done very well.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
Well, I was mostly arguing against Divion about the whole 'Not the biggest entertainment IP'.
... and yeah, it's a pretty big, diverse IP. It's really popular. It does appeal to new people. Dunno if it'll have long term legs (How many people remember the OTHER big name playwright of Shakespeare's time, the guy who was his biggest competitor and wrote about as much? Yeah. I thought so.), because I'm not psychic. No specific reason for it NOT to, but humanity as a mass are not perfectly predictable.
I actually look at me talking about Star Wars IP not being the biggest point of SW:ToR as me DEFENDING the game. That's right. It's me trying to make SW:ToR look better.
Because honestly, if somebody told me the best feature of a game was the IP, I'd assume it was a piece of trash, just like the vast majority of IP based games. (Yes. Including many Star Wars games. God, there were some horrible Star Wars games)
Ideally, shouldn't people be saying 'SW:ToR is so f'in badass, you won't even CARE that it's Star Wars!'?
? I don't disagree with the other arguments you wrote, but regarding this, sure, if you pick the top 20 games of all time there'll probably be a lot of original IP's, from Pac-Man, to Mario 3D to Zelda: Ocarina of Time to Populous to Doom or Command & Conquer. However, outside of that 1 game or handful of games those original IP's have had very little impact or independent power as IP (with the expection of Zelda and Mario).
Big IP's like Star Wars, DC/Marvel and Lord of the Rings and D&D have had a far larger allure and presence over the course of years to decennia and throughout various entertainment media, from movies to books to tv shows to games.
I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."