Even in WoW I had a great group of friends and community that was a real joy to be with. Yes, the cities were often a pain for their chat but I just made sure I didn't spend a lot of time in those cities.
And really the city chat isn't any worse than the EC tunnel in EQ was.
Venge
in WOW city chat im always seeing anal XXX
I never saw anything comparable to that WOW juvenile spam in EC tunnel
Even in WoW I had a great group of friends and community that was a real joy to be with. Yes, the cities were often a pain for their chat but I just made sure I didn't spend a lot of time in those cities.
And really the city chat isn't any worse than the EC tunnel in EQ was.
Venge
in WOW city chat im always seeing anal XXX
I never saw anything comparable to that WOW juvenile spam in EC tunnel
i 2nd that .rarely ever saw anything like the anal XXXX link spam that is in wow
No there wasn't any anal talk that I recall either, that I think is a generational thing. There was a lot of fighting and name calling though.
Venge
I agree it could be generational but I dont see it in WAR, AOC, RIFT or EQ2 either
ive been seeing it in WOW only since 2009
just to clarify -- all mmos have mudslinging in chat -- but WOW has the worst in my pesonal experience
I couldn't say about War, Aoc or Rift as I haven't played them longer than a couple weeks and Rift not at all yet. However I have seen it in EQ2 and actually... there was an anal xxx ifest n the EC tunnel on fippy server just a week or so ago, I even commented in NewPlayers that I had to double check what game I was playing.
Of course that doesn't mean very much because everyone plays everything these days.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
However I have seen it in EQ2 and actually... there was an anal xxx ifest n the EC tunnel on fippy server just a week or so ago, I even commented in NewPlayers that I had to double check what game I was playing.
This stupid game has killed the genre easily. Even with bleeding subs other developers aren't able to come up with something different? Only Arenanet is trying to do something unique which I applaud but they are also heading into the easy mode, instant gratification mold instead of making MMORPGS the way they need to be: challenging, huge, deep and instancefree.
I don' t need to be rewarded for every crap I want rewards for something epic and a huge open world to explore, with a deep progression (not only raiding, also meaningful crafting (get a raid dropj and use it for the best sword ingame therefore crafting is meaningful again, advanced abilities and customizeable stats). The reason people think raiding has become repitive is so simple, games such as the mentioned one offer nothing else at endgame and it for sure doesn't need to be that way.
I know MMORPGS aren't real life and thats a good thing cause you can work your ass off in real life and still get only shit for it, in MMORPGS at least you can feel like "yes we've defeated this boss server first or whatever" and that for me is the reason why I'm raiding.
To be honest with you I've stopped it cause every damn guild has had some rules like "raiding only with TS, ventrilo or Mumble" WTH?! And then when you finally install that crap all you will hear pre and sometimes during the raid are some idiots talking about their RL day, yeah guess thats more important than being focused.
Conclusion, MMORPGS need to be:
- huge open worlds
- deep in terms of progression
- customizeable in stats and GUI (no to addons!)
- meaningful crafting
- housing
- wardrobe
- alternative abilities
- meaningful death penalty so people are willing to learn if not ...don't let the door hit you..
- no crap such as achievements or wellfare epics
- access and epic quests instead of braindead kill 10 of those overhere
- no flying mounts, no external database
- force grouping
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
This stupid game has killed the genre easily. Even with bleeding subs other developers aren't able to come up with something different? Only Arenanet is trying to do something unique which I applaud but they are also heading into the easy mode, instant gratification mold instead of making MMORPGS the way they need to be: challenging, huge, deep and instancefree.
I don' t need to be rewarded for every crap I want rewards for something epic and a huge open world to explore, with a deep progression (not only raiding, also meaningful crafting (get a raid dropj and use it for the best sword ingame therefore crafting is meaningful again, advanced abilities and customizeable stats). The reason people think raiding has become repitive is so simple, games such as the mentioned one offer nothing else at endgame and it for sure doesn't need to be that way.
I know MMORPGS aren't real life and thats a good thing cause you can work your ass off in real life and still get only shit for it, in MMORPGS at least you can feel like "yes we've defeated this boss server first or whatever" and that for me is the reason why I'm raiding.
To be honest with you I've stopped it cause every damn guild has had some rules like "raiding only with TS, ventrilo or Mumble" WTH?! And then when you finally install that crap all you will hear pre and sometimes during the raid are some idiots talking about their RL day, yeah guess thats more important than being focused.
Conclusion, MMORPGS need to be:
- huge open worlds
- deep in terms of progression
- customizeable in stats and GUI (no to addons!)
- meaningful crafting
- housing
- wardrobe
- alternative abilities
- meaningful death penalty so people are willing to learn if not ...don't let the door hit you..
- no crap such as achievements or wellfare epics
- access and epic quests instead of braindead kill 10 of those overhere
- no flying mounts, no external database
- force grouping
I would agree with everything on your list except, achievement, no flying mounts and forced grouping. I want my games to have achievemenets, they are just a simple easy little option. More options are good.
I want flight - any game that doesn't have it these days is not really worth a lot of time. I don't want forced grouping under any circumstances whatsoever - will not ever play a game like this.
And while there are guilds such as you desribe I've never been in one, never will and I am not a minority on that.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
To me it's the people that make the game. If the servers are spread too thin and nobody is your level for anything that would impact my gaming experience more than it that sword has a socket feature or not.
This stupid game has killed the genre easily. Even with bleeding subs other developers aren't able to come up with something different? Only Arenanet is trying to do something unique which I applaud but they are also heading into the easy mode, instant gratification mold instead of making MMORPGS the way they need to be: challenging, huge, deep and instancefree.
I don' t need to be rewarded for every crap I want rewards for something epic and a huge open world to explore, with a deep progression (not only raiding, also meaningful crafting (get a raid dropj and use it for the best sword ingame therefore crafting is meaningful again, advanced abilities and customizeable stats). The reason people think raiding has become repitive is so simple, games such as the mentioned one offer nothing else at endgame and it for sure doesn't need to be that way.
I know MMORPGS aren't real life and thats a good thing cause you can work your ass off in real life and still get only shit for it, in MMORPGS at least you can feel like "yes we've defeated this boss server first or whatever" and that for me is the reason why I'm raiding.
To be honest with you I've stopped it cause every damn guild has had some rules like "raiding only with TS, ventrilo or Mumble" WTH?! And then when you finally install that crap all you will hear pre and sometimes during the raid are some idiots talking about their RL day, yeah guess thats more important than being focused.
Conclusion, MMORPGS need to be:
- huge open worlds
- deep in terms of progression
- customizeable in stats and GUI (no to addons!)
- meaningful crafting
- housing
- wardrobe
- alternative abilities
- meaningful death penalty so people are willing to learn if not ...don't let the door hit you..
- no crap such as achievements or wellfare epics
- access and epic quests instead of braindead kill 10 of those overhere
- no flying mounts, no external database
- force grouping
The main thing I don't get is why some feel they have to argue with someone like the quoted above. There are PLENTY of casual MMO's that cater to those players (That argue or flame people like the quoted), so why hate on him for wanting something different? Unfortunately...that is the new MMO model however. The items DerWotan at the end of his post are what seperate MMORPG's from console games...or did at one time anyways.
Now they are all way too easy and players race to cap because "end game" is where it's at. Never use to be that way. Sure, some players talked about end game, but it wasn't the #1 focus of most players. There was PLENTY of content to keep you occupied. Now you can get to cap with little effort in a matter of weeks.
The MMO genre is fading away. And it's both developers AND players fault(s).
The main thing I don't get is why some feel they have to argue with someone like the quoted above. There are PLENTY of casual MMO's that cater to those players (That argue or flame people like the quoted), so why hate on him for wanting something different? Unfortunately...that is the new MMO model however. The items DerWotan at the end of his post are what seperate MMORPG's from console games...or did at one time anyways.
Now they are all way too easy and players race to cap because "end game" is where it's at. Never use to be that way. Sure, some players talked about end game, but it wasn't the #1 focus of most players. There was PLENTY of content to keep you occupied. Now you can get to cap with little efforst in a matter of weeks.
The MMO genre is fading away. And it's both developers AND players fault(s).
Endgame is like an internet trend. People dig it for a while, keeps them busy. The dev sees that and things all is well they're happy. The reality is keeping busy is only ever skin deep. People never think outside the box. I'm not smart enough for this. The developers would need to like, play their game. Or have it played and then examine the reviews. What people like. What they don't like. And i don't mean what they want here. What they wanted in WoW was level cap with a lot of endgame. I don't think that hit the spot.
For all i know all they really want is more keybinds or something.
This stupid game has killed the genre easily. Even with bleeding subs other developers aren't able to come up with something different? Only Arenanet is trying to do something unique which I applaud but they are also heading into the easy mode, instant gratification mold instead of making MMORPGS the way they need to be: challenging, huge, deep and instancefree.
I don' t need to be rewarded for every crap I want rewards for something epic and a huge open world to explore, with a deep progression (not only raiding, also meaningful crafting (get a raid dropj and use it for the best sword ingame therefore crafting is meaningful again, advanced abilities and customizeable stats). The reason people think raiding has become repitive is so simple, games such as the mentioned one offer nothing else at endgame and it for sure doesn't need to be that way.
I know MMORPGS aren't real life and thats a good thing cause you can work your ass off in real life and still get only shit for it, in MMORPGS at least you can feel like "yes we've defeated this boss server first or whatever" and that for me is the reason why I'm raiding.
To be honest with you I've stopped it cause every damn guild has had some rules like "raiding only with TS, ventrilo or Mumble" WTH?! And then when you finally install that crap all you will hear pre and sometimes during the raid are some idiots talking about their RL day, yeah guess thats more important than being focused.
Conclusion, MMORPGS need to be:
- huge open worlds
- deep in terms of progression
- customizeable in stats and GUI (no to addons!)
- meaningful crafting
- housing
- wardrobe
- alternative abilities
- meaningful death penalty so people are willing to learn if not ...don't let the door hit you..
- no crap such as achievements or wellfare epics
- access and epic quests instead of braindead kill 10 of those overhere
- no flying mounts, no external database
- force grouping
The main thing I don't get is why some feel they have to argue with someone like the quoted above. There are PLENTY of casual MMO's that cater to those players (That argue or flame people like the quoted), so why hate on him for wanting something different? Unfortunately...that is the new MMO model however. The items DerWotan at the end of his post are what seperate MMORPG's from console games...or did at one time anyways.
Now they are all way too easy and players race to cap because "end game" is where it's at. Never use to be that way. Sure, some players talked about end game, but it wasn't the #1 focus of most players. There was PLENTY of content to keep you occupied. Now you can get to cap with little effort in a matter of weeks.
The MMO genre is fading away. And it's both developers AND players fault(s).
That's not very nice to tell a lie. Now, in pretty much the only games relevant to exist before World of Warcraft, Everquest and Ultima Online, what "content" was there that you're talking about? you think a few overcrowded rare spawns, dungeons that had camps that could last WEEKS in wait time and were practically the sole nodes of advancement at all in everquest was "PLENTY" of content? Everquest has more expansions than the single most popular console and PC franchises of all time has GAMES. I think they left a little out at first and for a long time it showed. In UO, that spawns of tiles of monsters in the middle of nowhere and no reason to kill them other than to improve weapon skills and get loot qualifies somehow as more "content" than it does in WoW because someone might jump you and murder you? Which has quests that involve them from simple kill to sneak and hunt, some of which drop items that start quests all on their own? Hell UO was where the best way to grandmaster skills to stand even chance was admitted by the best in the game community as best to Macro and hope you got away with it as a new player?
It's the player's faults alright, but it sure as hell is not the new ones. They're not the ones jumping in the genre bearing grudges. They just want to play a game that doesn't suck balls, and MMOs back in the day? they all kinda did suck balls in one dealbreaker aspect or another. There's no way we can say corpse camping, experience loss, hour long travels back to recovering equipment, lag, bugs, almost no formal quests with terrible rewards, exploration devoid of enough actual places that were interesting and not camped to hell, and terrible UI design was very un-appetizing in the days of old, and not a crate of rose tinted glasses is gonna shade it any differently. That's not to say It's bad wrong fun, it's just there is something objectively unappealing about just the way they are in nature relative to both EQ and UO depending on the situation.
World of Warcraft came around on its huge population because of its success in capturing the Asian market, The namesake of blizzard both the success of Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 cheering it on, being probably for the time being the best most accessible bang for your buck MMO with a clean slate out there, with very few dealbreakers the majority of gamers care about. At the *same time* both computers became much much cheaper to play games on, AND DSL and cable internet was becoming widespread. Lets not forget having Commericials with Ozzy Osbourne and William Shatner, a free trial available across the entire life cycle almost, the compelling force of joining friends in Epic Quests, and that to the majority of subscribers, this WAS A COMPLETELY NEW EXPERIENCE.
Heck, no way the new games are WoW clones, they don't have half the intelligence behind their marketting or Dev teams to understand the "once in an industry's lifetime" phenomenon that's never ever happening again and to understand - 500k subs is still really good when most games devs would KILL for that.
Honestly, I can't see why the die-hards claim WoW is the greatest thing to come along since oxygen. It's ok, it's not great, it's nowhere near awesome. It's just ok. I played it and it was fun, but once you get to the endgame content. that's it. Raid or quit.
The graphics are horrific. Poor cartoon quality! Artistically it's even worse! Honestly, who thinks there's someone strong enough to lift a goddam sword that's three feet wide and ten feet long?
Their only claim to fame in that game is....12 million players have tried it! That means maybe 11.95 million players quit.
Warcraft did absolutely nothing original. It copied what worked in other games and ignorant people took up the call and claimed how it revolutionized gaming. The only revolutionary thing it did was throw buckets of money into advertising.
There's always someone who wants to scream how wonderful it is, and if you're 12, it probably is. Most of us grow up and realize there's more interesting options available when you raise your standards.
Originally posted by RajCaj His analysis ignores the cost involved in creating these games, competition for marketshare with other companies, and the changes made in the games that opend the doors to the kind of sub numbers we are seeing today. While 500,000 subscribers might be a comfortable number for you...as a player.....I can assure you 500,000 subs will NOT be enough to keep SW:TOR afloat. Ultima Online made the guiness book of world records in 2000 by racking up 200,000 subscribers. Today WOW advertises 11.5-12 million subs. 11 million people just didn't decide they liked MMORPGs from 2000 to 2008. WOW made changes in their game to appeal toa more casual gaming market base. What determines success is more than just subscriber numbers....you have to look at their Return on Investment (how many subs you have vs. your costs) and what your future looks like when comparing marketshare with other competitors. I can assure you....even if SW:TOR pulls in a million subscribers, there will be disapointment if they are not able to wrestle a substantial piece of the market share pie from WOW given the money they spent to get that market position.
Yeah, sure - SWTOR will be considered a bust by many (me included) if it doesn't pull in numbers well north of 500k. But he also wasn't talking about TOR specifically, but about the "fail" label in general that gets tossed around a lot, often with very shaky justification, and coincidentally at games the person saying so happens not to like. MMOs don't actually need to cost $200 million to make, though, and one with a reasonable budget might well be perfectly happy, even delighted, with 200k subs.
You are leaving box sales out of the equation. Let's say that SWTOR did in fact cost the 400 million to make that some people have been throwing around (I seriously doubt it). That means that SWTOR could sell ~7 mil boxes at $60 (or any combination of the other editions) and make that initial cost back, any subscriptions they retain after the first month will then go first to paying the cost of maintaining servers and pay for their employees. If they only maintain 1 mil subscribers for let's say the first 6 months they will still have ~90 mil (1 mil * 15 * 6) to play with to meet their costs and report as profits.
Box sales are a huge revenue maker for MMO's but they are usually a huge influx of revune around launch and quickly drop off, this is actually why you see games for cheap 6-12 months after their release because the box sales
On point post people are quick to call game like Aoc and Aion failures forget that they had successful launches by successful launches it means that got large amounts of people to buy the box.
Aion got 1.5 million sub in NA which does not include 2.5 million it got in Asia
AoC got 700k or 800k sub at launch
Simple math
800k x 60 is 48,000,000
800k x 14.99 is 11,992,000
So let pretend that a AoC takes pretent that took 80 million to make it,How long would it take for the make back that 1 or 2 months.If what if Champions Online or STO cost like 20 million or 40 million to make do you think the made back that intial cost.What about Allods which cost around 12 million to make do people think they made back their money?
MMO are like console it took the Xbox 360 and PS3 a couple of years to make a profit,Once a MMO is a alive and figure out how not to bleed away customer at some point it will make that back intial cost and start to make a real profit.
People don't realize that MMO companies love the Hype monsters that gamers create that intial rush where gamers rush to play the next hot new game often is what funds these games.It is funny gamers think when leave game that game has no hope when their rush to play game that they will never is what really help the game once you bought that box.Cryptic is master of this practice.
OP I agree with most of your points, although I don’t think most MMO players are rotten. They are, for the most part, just like you and me. I would argue that it is the “people” that are one of the few redeeming qualities of an MMO, that you can share your experiences and struggles with fellow clansmen/corp (even the jerks, because it’s fun when they are on your side, and motivate us to defeat them if they aren't). If it weren’t for that, people would just stick to single player games.
By design, as you have mentioned, mmo’s have to be very tedious to sustain their populations (ironically). I think it will be a major breakthrough if a developer can create a new model to circumvent this (and also create a very polished product that's fun to play).
It astounds me that so many people just hate on WoW. I can understand if it’s not your cup of tea, but to deny WoW not being the best all-around MMO to date, well it’s pretty naive to be honest. I have played WoW and EvE for the last 6 years, as well as many other MMOs, and WoW is the best experience the majority of MMO players will get out of the genre (barring those who are looking for a particular type of gameplay or theme). Personally I have also stopped playing MMOs for now since it feels too repetitive for the amount of time they consume. Going to give SwtoR a shot, but cautious optimism seems to be the mood for that game at the moment (to put it nicely).
Don't believe I played EQ first? How about camping Aqua Goblins for hours to make plat? Dwarves doing a somersalt when they jump.... ghoulbane quest in part at the chess board.... Killing the orc on top of the hill in Crushbane over and over for the SBS so I could sell it.... The sky turning red on Halloween and undead spawning all over, and BB could mean Butcher Block or BlackBurrow depending on which side of the world you were on..... all this is pre- SoL.
EQ was great at the time... I still prefer the original EQ [quest] system. The thing is that EQ was basically as big a grind as it gets.... leveling up was 90% or more going to certain "camps" and farming mobs till your group disbanded.
You don't have to like the art style in WoW to see that what they did was effective. An insanely low poly count forming a vibrant world that aged much better than the much higher poly competition.
As far as my key point, that the PEOPLE are what really suck...... I should have elaborated further. What I mean is that when dealing with people you will always be faced with stupidity, arrogance, condescension, stubborness and a dozen other undesirable traits any time you interact with a large group. People suck.
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Dwarves do a somersault when jumping? I don't think I have ever seen that either when playing before, or now.... doesn't mean they don't just never saw it.
Of course now I'm wondering if I ever saw a dwarf jump at all haha.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Dwarves do a somersault when jumping? I don't think I have ever seen that either when playing before, or now.... doesn't mean they don't just never saw it.
Of course now I'm wondering if I ever saw a dwarf jump at all haha.
Venge
Heh, this was with the first generation graphics, I think the dwarf somersalt went away with the "new" character models that became optional with Luclin and I assume later became mandatory.
At that time the PC toons had about as many poly's as Mario!
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
I tried EQ2 (I wasn't thrilled with replaying a world that I had already put too many hours to count into)....Right or wrong, it was how I felt about it, I did try it, but it didn't grab me....The other game to come out right after it was WoW, I was in WoW beta, and I didn't like it...I wanted to....but it didn't grab me either...
The point is, to say people hate/dislike something because it is 'successful' is ignorant as a general statement.
I actually saw WoW as what I disliked in the direction of EQ in its later years on steroids....For the most part, some ideas I liked, but as a whole package...no.
Why I dislike a lot of modern mmos?
1. World size is too small, not diverse, exploring sucks or is non-existant...no 'cool' things to run to do or see.
2. Crafting is a after thought or horrible...I personally think things need to degrade (it sucks...but it outweighs it not happening imo)...No items to make things not degrade...Crafting needs to be useful.
3. Too many instances, quest hubs, directions or game play that rewards only the quest grinder...which I hate. It goes back to quest hub design somewhat...I prefer options, if I choose against the way the game designers wanted me to play I am penalized. I would love a game with 50% open dungeons atleast....not all instanced, it would let people have a choice.
4. Harvesting - Goes along with crafting...It needs to be interesting with rares...ultra rares ect...Some don't like crafting/harvesting, and thats good too, they can kill things and buy stuff from those that do...as in next point.
5. Player economy - I prefer a decent play economy...doesnt have to be all encompasing...but decently sized.
6. Make questing more varied, and worth doing, not all games suffer so much....But not many have things like the old EQ epic quests....that sometimes took people months to a year to complete.
7. Dumbing things down (ala some of what I disliked about WoW) - I am more immersed by intrigue and mystery, trying to figure things out, than have a map that about does everything for me....
8. Housing - It isn't a deal breaker, but non-instanced housing is a plus for me, if anyone could ever bring UO housing to a real 3d game, it would be very impressive....But with housing areas, like Vanguard, smaller housing stuff is ok too, it does need regulated somewhat, so you don't have it like it was in SWG, and UO before some restrictions.
What I would love to see, in the future.
1. A game that could simulate computer AI to keep a world evolving...kingdoms that fall, that players/guilds or even computer AIs could be responsible for and replace...Something that would create unique dungeons and rewards, and make them in somewhat random areas, to make it so you had to explore and would find new things all the time...Basically a living world that would probably need a little guidance from GMs...They could do this now, but it would be expensive.... Raiding could somewhat remain standard, but have enough varience to make it fresh and not the same. An evolving/changing world that is big, and diverse, with truely dynamic/changing content would be great....You would never know what you were going to encounter if you went into a cave and so forth.
Comments
in WOW city chat im always seeing anal XXX
I never saw anything comparable to that WOW juvenile spam in EC tunnel
EQ2 fan sites
No there wasn't any anal talk that I recall either, that I think is a generational thing. There was a lot of fighting and name calling though.
Venge
i 2nd that .rarely ever saw anything like the anal XXXX link spam that is in wow
I agree it could be generational but I dont see it in WAR, AOC, RIFT or EQ2 either
ive been seeing it in WOW only since 2009
just to clarify -- all mmos have mudslinging in chat
but WOW has the worst in my personal experience
EQ2 fan sites
I couldn't say about War, Aoc or Rift as I haven't played them longer than a couple weeks and Rift not at all yet. However I have seen it in EQ2 and actually... there was an anal xxx ifest n the EC tunnel on fippy server just a week or so ago, I even commented in NewPlayers that I had to double check what game I was playing.
Of course that doesn't mean very much because everyone plays everything these days.
Venge
fair enough
EQ2 fan sites
Stopped reading after the spelling wow...
This stupid game has killed the genre easily. Even with bleeding subs other developers aren't able to come up with something different? Only Arenanet is trying to do something unique which I applaud but they are also heading into the easy mode, instant gratification mold instead of making MMORPGS the way they need to be: challenging, huge, deep and instancefree.
I don' t need to be rewarded for every crap I want rewards for something epic and a huge open world to explore, with a deep progression (not only raiding, also meaningful crafting (get a raid dropj and use it for the best sword ingame therefore crafting is meaningful again, advanced abilities and customizeable stats). The reason people think raiding has become repitive is so simple, games such as the mentioned one offer nothing else at endgame and it for sure doesn't need to be that way.
I know MMORPGS aren't real life and thats a good thing cause you can work your ass off in real life and still get only shit for it, in MMORPGS at least you can feel like "yes we've defeated this boss server first or whatever" and that for me is the reason why I'm raiding.
To be honest with you I've stopped it cause every damn guild has had some rules like "raiding only with TS, ventrilo or Mumble" WTH?! And then when you finally install that crap all you will hear pre and sometimes during the raid are some idiots talking about their RL day, yeah guess thats more important than being focused.
Conclusion, MMORPGS need to be:
- huge open worlds
- deep in terms of progression
- customizeable in stats and GUI (no to addons!)
- meaningful crafting
- housing
- wardrobe
- alternative abilities
- meaningful death penalty so people are willing to learn if not ...don't let the door hit you..
- no crap such as achievements or wellfare epics
- access and epic quests instead of braindead kill 10 of those overhere
- no flying mounts, no external database
- force grouping
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I would agree with everything on your list except, achievement, no flying mounts and forced grouping. I want my games to have achievemenets, they are just a simple easy little option. More options are good.
I want flight - any game that doesn't have it these days is not really worth a lot of time. I don't want forced grouping under any circumstances whatsoever - will not ever play a game like this.
And while there are guilds such as you desribe I've never been in one, never will and I am not a minority on that.
Venge
To me it's the people that make the game. If the servers are spread too thin and nobody is your level for anything that would impact my gaming experience more than it that sword has a socket feature or not.
To me it's the people and the human factor.
Existence is a paradox. It just is.
The main thing I don't get is why some feel they have to argue with someone like the quoted above. There are PLENTY of casual MMO's that cater to those players (That argue or flame people like the quoted), so why hate on him for wanting something different? Unfortunately...that is the new MMO model however. The items DerWotan at the end of his post are what seperate MMORPG's from console games...or did at one time anyways.
Now they are all way too easy and players race to cap because "end game" is where it's at. Never use to be that way. Sure, some players talked about end game, but it wasn't the #1 focus of most players. There was PLENTY of content to keep you occupied. Now you can get to cap with little effort in a matter of weeks.
The MMO genre is fading away. And it's both developers AND players fault(s).
Endgame is like an internet trend. People dig it for a while, keeps them busy. The dev sees that and things all is well they're happy. The reality is keeping busy is only ever skin deep. People never think outside the box. I'm not smart enough for this. The developers would need to like, play their game. Or have it played and then examine the reviews. What people like. What they don't like. And i don't mean what they want here. What they wanted in WoW was level cap with a lot of endgame. I don't think that hit the spot.
For all i know all they really want is more keybinds or something.
Existence is a paradox. It just is.
That's not very nice to tell a lie. Now, in pretty much the only games relevant to exist before World of Warcraft, Everquest and Ultima Online, what "content" was there that you're talking about? you think a few overcrowded rare spawns, dungeons that had camps that could last WEEKS in wait time and were practically the sole nodes of advancement at all in everquest was "PLENTY" of content? Everquest has more expansions than the single most popular console and PC franchises of all time has GAMES. I think they left a little out at first and for a long time it showed. In UO, that spawns of tiles of monsters in the middle of nowhere and no reason to kill them other than to improve weapon skills and get loot qualifies somehow as more "content" than it does in WoW because someone might jump you and murder you? Which has quests that involve them from simple kill to sneak and hunt, some of which drop items that start quests all on their own? Hell UO was where the best way to grandmaster skills to stand even chance was admitted by the best in the game community as best to Macro and hope you got away with it as a new player?
It's the player's faults alright, but it sure as hell is not the new ones. They're not the ones jumping in the genre bearing grudges. They just want to play a game that doesn't suck balls, and MMOs back in the day? they all kinda did suck balls in one dealbreaker aspect or another. There's no way we can say corpse camping, experience loss, hour long travels back to recovering equipment, lag, bugs, almost no formal quests with terrible rewards, exploration devoid of enough actual places that were interesting and not camped to hell, and terrible UI design was very un-appetizing in the days of old, and not a crate of rose tinted glasses is gonna shade it any differently. That's not to say It's bad wrong fun, it's just there is something objectively unappealing about just the way they are in nature relative to both EQ and UO depending on the situation.
World of Warcraft came around on its huge population because of its success in capturing the Asian market, The namesake of blizzard both the success of Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 cheering it on, being probably for the time being the best most accessible bang for your buck MMO with a clean slate out there, with very few dealbreakers the majority of gamers care about. At the *same time* both computers became much much cheaper to play games on, AND DSL and cable internet was becoming widespread. Lets not forget having Commericials with Ozzy Osbourne and William Shatner, a free trial available across the entire life cycle almost, the compelling force of joining friends in Epic Quests, and that to the majority of subscribers, this WAS A COMPLETELY NEW EXPERIENCE.
Heck, no way the new games are WoW clones, they don't have half the intelligence behind their marketting or Dev teams to understand the "once in an industry's lifetime" phenomenon that's never ever happening again and to understand - 500k subs is still really good when most games devs would KILL for that.
Honestly, I can't see why the die-hards claim WoW is the greatest thing to come along since oxygen. It's ok, it's not great, it's nowhere near awesome. It's just ok. I played it and it was fun, but once you get to the endgame content. that's it. Raid or quit.
The graphics are horrific. Poor cartoon quality! Artistically it's even worse! Honestly, who thinks there's someone strong enough to lift a goddam sword that's three feet wide and ten feet long?
Their only claim to fame in that game is....12 million players have tried it! That means maybe 11.95 million players quit.
Warcraft did absolutely nothing original. It copied what worked in other games and ignorant people took up the call and claimed how it revolutionized gaming. The only revolutionary thing it did was throw buckets of money into advertising.
There's always someone who wants to scream how wonderful it is, and if you're 12, it probably is. Most of us grow up and realize there's more interesting options available when you raise your standards.
Yeah, sure - SWTOR will be considered a bust by many (me included) if it doesn't pull in numbers well north of 500k. But he also wasn't talking about TOR specifically, but about the "fail" label in general that gets tossed around a lot, often with very shaky justification, and coincidentally at games the person saying so happens not to like. MMOs don't actually need to cost $200 million to make, though, and one with a reasonable budget might well be perfectly happy, even delighted, with 200k subs.
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On point post people are quick to call game like Aoc and Aion failures forget that they had successful launches by successful launches it means that got large amounts of people to buy the box.
Aion got 1.5 million sub in NA which does not include 2.5 million it got in Asia
AoC got 700k or 800k sub at launch
Simple math
800k x 60 is 48,000,000
800k x 14.99 is 11,992,000
So let pretend that a AoC takes pretent that took 80 million to make it,How long would it take for the make back that 1 or 2 months.If what if Champions Online or STO cost like 20 million or 40 million to make do you think the made back that intial cost.What about Allods which cost around 12 million to make do people think they made back their money?
MMO are like console it took the Xbox 360 and PS3 a couple of years to make a profit,Once a MMO is a alive and figure out how not to bleed away customer at some point it will make that back intial cost and start to make a real profit.
People don't realize that MMO companies love the Hype monsters that gamers create that intial rush where gamers rush to play the next hot new game often is what funds these games.It is funny gamers think when leave game that game has no hope when their rush to play game that they will never is what really help the game once you bought that box.Cryptic is master of this practice.
OP I agree with most of your points, although I don’t think most MMO players are rotten. They are, for the most part, just like you and me. I would argue that it is the “people” that are one of the few redeeming qualities of an MMO, that you can share your experiences and struggles with fellow clansmen/corp (even the jerks, because it’s fun when they are on your side, and motivate us to defeat them if they aren't). If it weren’t for that, people would just stick to single player games.
By design, as you have mentioned, mmo’s have to be very tedious to sustain their populations (ironically). I think it will be a major breakthrough if a developer can create a new model to circumvent this (and also create a very polished product that's fun to play).
It astounds me that so many people just hate on WoW. I can understand if it’s not your cup of tea, but to deny WoW not being the best all-around MMO to date, well it’s pretty naive to be honest. I have played WoW and EvE for the last 6 years, as well as many other MMOs, and WoW is the best experience the majority of MMO players will get out of the genre (barring those who are looking for a particular type of gameplay or theme). Personally I have also stopped playing MMOs for now since it feels too repetitive for the amount of time they consume. Going to give SwtoR a shot, but cautious optimism seems to be the mood for that game at the moment (to put it nicely).
Don't believe I played EQ first? How about camping Aqua Goblins for hours to make plat? Dwarves doing a somersalt when they jump.... ghoulbane quest in part at the chess board.... Killing the orc on top of the hill in Crushbane over and over for the SBS so I could sell it.... The sky turning red on Halloween and undead spawning all over, and BB could mean Butcher Block or BlackBurrow depending on which side of the world you were on..... all this is pre- SoL.
EQ was great at the time... I still prefer the original EQ [quest] system. The thing is that EQ was basically as big a grind as it gets.... leveling up was 90% or more going to certain "camps" and farming mobs till your group disbanded.
You don't have to like the art style in WoW to see that what they did was effective. An insanely low poly count forming a vibrant world that aged much better than the much higher poly competition.
As far as my key point, that the PEOPLE are what really suck...... I should have elaborated further. What I mean is that when dealing with people you will always be faced with stupidity, arrogance, condescension, stubborness and a dozen other undesirable traits any time you interact with a large group. People suck.
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Dwarves do a somersault when jumping? I don't think I have ever seen that either when playing before, or now.... doesn't mean they don't just never saw it.
Of course now I'm wondering if I ever saw a dwarf jump at all haha.
Venge
Heh, this was with the first generation graphics, I think the dwarf somersalt went away with the "new" character models that became optional with Luclin and I assume later became mandatory.
At that time the PC toons had about as many poly's as Mario!
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
I started with Ultima Online, played EQ etc....
I tried EQ2 (I wasn't thrilled with replaying a world that I had already put too many hours to count into)....Right or wrong, it was how I felt about it, I did try it, but it didn't grab me....The other game to come out right after it was WoW, I was in WoW beta, and I didn't like it...I wanted to....but it didn't grab me either...
The point is, to say people hate/dislike something because it is 'successful' is ignorant as a general statement.
I actually saw WoW as what I disliked in the direction of EQ in its later years on steroids....For the most part, some ideas I liked, but as a whole package...no.
Why I dislike a lot of modern mmos?
1. World size is too small, not diverse, exploring sucks or is non-existant...no 'cool' things to run to do or see.
2. Crafting is a after thought or horrible...I personally think things need to degrade (it sucks...but it outweighs it not happening imo)...No items to make things not degrade...Crafting needs to be useful.
3. Too many instances, quest hubs, directions or game play that rewards only the quest grinder...which I hate. It goes back to quest hub design somewhat...I prefer options, if I choose against the way the game designers wanted me to play I am penalized. I would love a game with 50% open dungeons atleast....not all instanced, it would let people have a choice.
4. Harvesting - Goes along with crafting...It needs to be interesting with rares...ultra rares ect...Some don't like crafting/harvesting, and thats good too, they can kill things and buy stuff from those that do...as in next point.
5. Player economy - I prefer a decent play economy...doesnt have to be all encompasing...but decently sized.
6. Make questing more varied, and worth doing, not all games suffer so much....But not many have things like the old EQ epic quests....that sometimes took people months to a year to complete.
7. Dumbing things down (ala some of what I disliked about WoW) - I am more immersed by intrigue and mystery, trying to figure things out, than have a map that about does everything for me....
8. Housing - It isn't a deal breaker, but non-instanced housing is a plus for me, if anyone could ever bring UO housing to a real 3d game, it would be very impressive....But with housing areas, like Vanguard, smaller housing stuff is ok too, it does need regulated somewhat, so you don't have it like it was in SWG, and UO before some restrictions.
What I would love to see, in the future.
1. A game that could simulate computer AI to keep a world evolving...kingdoms that fall, that players/guilds or even computer AIs could be responsible for and replace...Something that would create unique dungeons and rewards, and make them in somewhat random areas, to make it so you had to explore and would find new things all the time...Basically a living world that would probably need a little guidance from GMs...They could do this now, but it would be expensive.... Raiding could somewhat remain standard, but have enough varience to make it fresh and not the same. An evolving/changing world that is big, and diverse, with truely dynamic/changing content would be great....You would never know what you were going to encounter if you went into a cave and so forth.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/willful_ignorance