Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
A mountaineers look at mmorpg history
kjempff
Member RarePosts: 1,759
Did you ever wonder why many older mmorpg players are not happy about the current selection of mmorpg games ?
It would be too easy to write it out, so I packed it all into a story about climbing.
Imagine yourself in this situation....
You get invited by a friend to some light mountaineering one day, and to your surprice you find you like it.
Beeing intrigued by the climbing community and climbing itself, you begin climbing mountains every weekend.
You love climbing so much, that one day you call yourself a mountaineer, and that slowly become a part of your identity.
More people start climbing mountains and it is great, except you notice the mountains starting to get less steep.
As the mountains get easier to climb, even more people start climbing, and now the mountains are starting to wear down.
The demand for easier mountains rises as even more want to try climbing, and the climbing industry recognise the need to level some of the steepest slopes. Everyone is happy and eagerly telling friends and family about the thrills of climbing.
Suddenly you wake up one day, and everyone call themselves mountaineers, but there are only hills now and no real mountains left to climb. What ? you blink and cant quite grasp what has happened in that short time, even people walking stairs now call themselves mountaineers.
You are now experiencing a slight identity crisis, because you still think you are a mountaineer, but everyone else think they are so too. Fighting the urge to look down upon those who only walked hills but call themselves mountaineers, you try to comment on the trend, but it is hard without looking like a old sour jerk. You feel like you have something to say but those you want to speak to, does not understand your language.
And thus, everyone call themselves mountaineers and have their opinion on what mountaineering is.
I am not sure why I needed to post this, and I dont expect replies, but it was fun to write.
Cheers to all real gamers.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Comments
The analogy isn't complete unless you point out how prone how often old mountaineers claim that the mountains back in the day used to be dozens of miles high, and the crisp air at the top of them could reverse aging and cure cancer, and nobody ever fell off of them and broke every bone in their body.
And people say "hey i want to be able to climb a mountain in one hour session and solo".
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Exelent analogy.
It's partly that "frontier feeling" as well as that "barriers to entry" and number of challenging mountains to climb still... there are a few tough peaks left out there, still. Quality post btw. I'm more of a hiker/scrambler myself : )
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I totally disagree with the concept that older mmorpg were better because harder. Thats certainly not what was good in them, in fact the difficulty wasn't a difficulty but a chore most of the time. What was good in them is the sensation you really played a character thats all, this sensation is clearly gone. Now you just play a stat list, not a character. Up until this is put back to its place mmorpg will be crappy whatever billion they poor in, whatever genius create some fantastic features.
The only thing that changes that really matters is the mountaineer's perspective. He started climbing mountains because it was something new. When other people started climbing worn down mountains or even hills, that was a new experience for them as well. To them, it is a mountain because thats all they ever knew. To you it is not because you climbed something steeper and more dangerous. And before you came along there was someone else that would scoff at your own experience with the mountain and call it something else altogether.
The only thing you need to really learn from all this is that your perspective is uniquely your own just like everybody else's perspective. Even people who started climbing mountains at the same time as you will have a different perspective. Perhaps they climbed a different face of the mountain or maybe they climbed it for different reasons.
So in conclusion, if you really truly love mountain climbing, then youd enjoy sharing and talking about it with anyone else who likes it too. No matter what their experience or perspective is on the matter
Otherwise youre just clinging to a title and the true meaning of mountian climbing was lost on you long ago.
There are always going to be mountains like Everest around (games like Ultima Online and Everquest are still available to play, and MMOs like Darkfall and Mortal Online feature similar no handholding gameplay). Nothing is stopping you from continuing to climb them. Just because there are more tourist areas catering to easier mountain climbing doesn't mean a hardcore mountain climber like yourself doesn't have options. If you are offended that the people who climb the easier mountains call themselves mountaineers I don't know what to tell you, it doesn't take away from your accomplishments as an expert mountaineer.
"A MOUNTAINEERS look at mmorpg history."
It would be wise to change your thread title in case some sado shouts out "TYPO!"
*coughapstrophecoughcough* Ah-hem.
Back to the post, if you're not a veteran player then it is a challenge to understand what you are trying to say.
Is it that games are being overcrowded, less challenging, empty?
Please explain.
FEEL THE FULL
FREE-TO-FLAME
FANTASY.
When were MMO ever hard? You just don't have to walk barefoot in the snow anymore, but it's still just as -easy.
That would be true if the mmo design was always the same but it is not, the industry is totally different now than it was with UO and EQ. The games are simply not built the same way at all. Saying everything is on the player hand is just so easy and mostly false. Sure players changed too, but its certainly not their entire fault either if there is a fault.
One of the best posts on these forums for a long time.
You made me remember how great UO was and how shitty all the mmos are nowdays.
Cheers, kjempff.
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted.
Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."
Hans Margolius
MMOs have always been fundamentally designed the same way: a lot of people coming together from anywhere in the world and playing a game together. You think that a specific set of game features are what defines an mmo? Im sorry but I have to disagree. The only feature that counts in an mmo is the ability for people to play together, period. The only way the industry has changed is to accommodate for varying tastes in how we play together. I understand that you miss certain features from past favorite mmos, I do too. But it really shouldnt matter in the long run because you still have those experiences you loved from previous games. Nobody is taking that away from you. Dont let it cloud the real reason we play these games. Otherwise, you'll just sound like a bitter old man watching the world pass you by. Unwilling to let go of the past, unwilling to try to appreciate something new on its own merits instead of constantly stacking it up against previous experiences.
Believe me, I empathize with the plight of the veteran sandboxer. I was one too. But I realized that I was only making myself miserable and had forgotten why I started playing mmos in the first place. It wasnt the features. Hell, I can find more interesting features than UO and EQ had in many single player games. Its the people that you meet and play with that makes an mmo what it is. And my time in UO and SWG was great. And I will always have those memories. And I look back fondly on those games. But dont take a good time in an old game ruin new experiences. Try to appreciate both.
Its sad to see people look at mmos like they are looking for that one in a million. It never ends. I see it on the forums all the time. Here we have a thread with people that are sad that they dont have new mmos that capture the magic of older games. And i just read a few minutes ago in another thread some kid saying that after gw2 comes out, he doubts he will be interested in any other future mmos. Am I the only one that sees this sad cycle happening around here? People constantly either stuck in the past or placing all their bets on the future.
I am currently awaiting a new game PC and so am stuck on my linux box which is setup for power effiency, silence, reliability and storage... yes, it is slower then a 286sx with turbo off.
So, I have played some old games. Baldur's Gate. The original game. Ah, the memories... ah the cold hard low rez resolution ripping away those comfortable warm fuzzy old memories and replacing them with blinding realization... the OLD days SUCKED! Do you remember epic story telling from that game? Where has it gone? You start with a into of nothing, walk around the library getting one liners to tell you basics you already know from other games. Then your master summons you, walks a few steps and is killed... then you meet the people you were told to meet and all they say is "go to naskel"... you wander around a few nearly empty areas with some random enemies some of which are hard, some of which are not... and that is it for a long time... is this what every is talking about so fondly?
Hell, I talked fondly about it but the past is always better when it stays in the past.
Early games alike UO and EQ (and they themselves were levelled mountains compared to earlier games) were harder but were they better? If you ever driven a real army jeep you may just know how difficult they are to drive and how each bump in the road is not just felt but threathens to throw you out. Very early games had no maps, you had to make your own. Write down your own notes. And the descriptions in the game were often extremely cryptic.
What do you prefer?
1. I need ten ingredients for my pie... what kind of pie? What kind of ingredients? Where do they come from? Fuck off.
2. I need ten kidneys for my pie. What animal? Fuck off.
3. I need ten kidneys from boars. Where are they? Fuck off.
4. I need ten kidneys, you can find them by heading north from here in the forest? Which way is north? Fuck off.
5. I need ten kidneys, the area is indicated on your map as a colored zone. How do you read a map? Fuck off.
6. I need ten kidneys, follow this glowing trail from animal to animal.
believe it or not, all have existed in games I played. Just how easy can it get? When might you just as well give a players a "I win" button and call it a day? When is a game so hard that it is more like work then play?
Where the mountain guy gets it wrong is that the mountain doesn't need climbers. Games do need gamers. If a game is to hard, most won't play it. If it is to easy, most won't play it. If it is just right, the easy and hard mode guys will not play it.
The thing to remember is that UO and EQ are still there. Nobody build an escalator up Mount Everest yet. If UO and EQ are the game this guy wants to play, he can. he can even play a MUDD and go fully hardcore. Is he?
I understand what you're trying to say. And on some levels, youre right. But we are talking about the actual design of MMO's being changed so radically, that players that have experienced only one type of gameplay, have no experienced what the veterans have, and wont have the chance to, because no one out there is making it.
To go back to the mountaineering analogy (which is great) the MMO industry is like the mountaineering industry, in that theres many people trying out those hills, but there are few to no places offerring real mountains. Its easy for you to sit here and say, "well thats great and all, you had those experiences, now enjoy the themeparks" but when it comes down to it, most of the veteran sandboxers only see the themeparks for what they really are: carrot-on-a-stick treadmills. How are they supposed to enjoy these games when they experienced the real thing? They cant, and you shouldnt expect them to.
And theres more to it than just a lack of innovation and greed.
There is some serious science going on behind the scenes. Theres a reason why Blizzard is keeping Titan under wraps. You see, they know firsthand how to do this "carrot on a stick" gear grind treadmill. Look at how many people are addicted to getting the next best gear, and look how the community is shaped around souch greed. Look at the abysmal state of the WoW community. I have never seen a bunch of self absorbed, trance-like people in my entire life. And Blizzard knows how to keep that trance.
You see, these "sandbox veterans" arent just fighting for creativity in games, but they are fighting for freedom. They are fighting for the freedom you can have to explore, to experience the world, to go and fight WORLD PVP, instead of just "battlegrounds". They are advocating a virtual, living and breathing world. These publishers really do want to lock you in the endless game of competition between players, fighting for the next gear drop. Because it keeps you subscribed. It all comes down to the $$$ and themepark MMO's are the biggest pieces of money making cows on the face of this earth because they keep you in competition with other players for the best pieces of virtual items.
actually, easier back then. Reduce the grind, and add more challenging gameplay, and you basically get new age MMO.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I prefer the "Fuck off, I have orcs to kill. Make your own pie!" approach.
The problem is that most of those 'veterans' come off as advocating for less freedom and more restrictive games. What the 'veterans' think is 'freedom' to the 'casual' players comes off as 'fascism'. The 'veterans' want the freedom they like but bulk when other players want to experience freedoms that conflict with that.
I, a fake gamer, kiss the feet of you real gamers and humbly apologize for presuming to have fun in your sacred realms.
Actually, its the other way around. These "new players" are the ones who advocate less freedom. More "consentual" pvp, more raiding, more restrictive character design, more itemization, less exploration etc. It seems to me, in the end, its the casuals that are the ones who are fascist, especially on their WoW forums calling people "baddies" because they dont squeeze that extra point of DPS out, guilds kicking people out because they dont have a "work" schedule for raids, or critiquing each other's gear, like its some sort of achievement showroom. If this is what the "casuals" want out of their game, leave me out of it, because its sickening.
Or maybe its just perspectives. Maybe, both sides perceive the same thing, both sides percieve that the other is being fascist. In the end though, what it comes down to, is that one camp is being mostly ignored, because one design isnt nearly as profitable as the other.
excellent OP, enjoyed it
as you say in the old days the true mountaineers were respected for what they were. Many other climbers climbed up only so far before hitting the wall, but they appreciated the skill by those elite climbers and enjoyed aspiring to get to those heights one day though lots of practice. Move forward ten years and everyone has spiked shoes and waterproof clothing, but still, the elite can move faster. But now a huge majority of climbers who never originally respected those old elite climbers demand 'why cant i go that fast! Fortunately a chair lift is getting built that gets extended every 3 months.
The net affect, mountaineers what to build houses and settle down in a nice sandpark :P
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I think the OP is emphasizing the lack of challenge to players. Most mmos seem to treat the player more as customer and not player who NEEDS a good dose of real challenge to surmount, the sort of challenge that let's them know they are in for a test and not in for charity. That feeling of ascending a mountain and looking at the view from the top (as long as the clouds & weather don't blot it out and it's not too cold!) is a great sense of achievement after achingly hard climb up, requiring careful decision making, planning and endurance.
+1 OP.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Actually, this is sort of the problem, with regards to MMO's they did change them in radical ways so they are hollow shells of their former glory.
I can't speak direcly for these two, but DAOC today is almost nothing like it was pre TOA-New Frontiers expansions.
You can't actually go back (at least legally)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Completely totally 100% disagree. Casuals constantly call for less restrictions, more choices, more options on how to do things. Things means more freedom, more ways to advance, less need for just raiding, less need for grinding...
Casuals are all about choice, and opportunity. It's the elite, the powergamer who want everything to be their way, their style, their method is the only one thats right, the only true MMO, the only true gamer. Bunch of bs.
Venge
"The only true MMO, the only true gamer"
Who said that? Do you see these "powergamers" running around these forums? Most of these powergamers have long gone; maybe an outspoken few are on these forums, but nothing more. You are afraid of shadows. They are all gone.
This whole thing about casual vs hardcore is ridiculous. Do you really think that there are many casual MMO players when MMO's require vast amounts of time and resources to play? How much of WoW's population do you really think is "casual" when by now, most of WoW requires you to be in a guild to get anywhere? Sure, you can play solo, but you're not really getting the "full experience"?
These "casuals" soon turn to being hardcore, whether you like it or not. So its a moot point, Casual/hardcore is really how you play the game, your dedication to it, etc.This thread is talking about styles of play here, which is completely different. I'll edit my previous post.
Veterans do not equal "hardcore" players. Hardcore players do not equal players that prefer a different playstyle than themepark.
Lets get that straight here. You have many veterans of many games, many elitists of many games. I think out of all the games, WoW is known infamously for its strict elitism. Give me a break.
Those exact words "true MMO's, true gamers" are spoken loud and often on these very forums. In this very thread they were talking about true MMO's and true gamers. Every week there are a half dozen threads cropping up regardin this exact same topic. They are easily the loudest voice in these forums.
and I didn't say just powergamers. And I deliberately did not include veterans because I don't consider veterans to be any title that implies any time, commitment or even game preference.
Casuals don't just turn into hardcore, just like hardcore don't just turn into casuals. They change depending on their interests and their RL responsibilities. To say casuals soon turn into hardcore whether you like it or not is rubbish.
I think most of WoW's population is casual playing either 10-15 hours a week and not putting a lot of research into it. I think most MMO gamers are just looking for entertainment. They don't care about the "Full Experience" as defined by someone else, they just care about their own entertainment.
Vast amounts of time is the issue. MMO's don't and shouldn't require vast amounts of time. If a quest takes 300 hours to complete why should that have to be done all at once? Why not half 600 half hour sections to it? I certainly don't put in hours and hours a day (except on some weekends). You can, and many do log in for an hour at a time and have fun.
I agree veterans do not equal hardcore players, and never implied it in any way shape or form. I said elite, I said power gamers - those are not casual. Veterans can be casual, hardcore or fluctuate in the middle just like everyone else. I've been gaming since Kunark EQ and am certainly not hardcore at all.
There is a lot of elitism in WoW however I think Wow is most known for being simple and easy to get into, catering to everyones style for the powergamer to the 80 year old grandma who wants to play with her 8 year old nephew. WoW can be played as hardcore or as simple as you want.
Venge