I find that when there is a real threat of losing hard-earned things, quite different PvP environment can emerge.
EVE does this very well, but a typical MMORPG seldom give tools to actually protect oneself or create a system where it is works. People, on the other hand, cry for fairness and getting gangbanged is far from it. War is seldom fair.
My assumption, and it is just an assumption, is that great many of those people who really enjoy full-loot PvP (discounting EVE here because the system works differently) are actually sosiopaths or psychopaths. Afterall, we know that 3-5% of men and 1% of women fit that category. These are people who often have no conscience nor can they feel empathy, but can feel pleasure and other emotions.
No doubt there are many other reasons to enjoy full loot PvP.
I'm no full loot pvp fan, myself, but that's a little much. I don't think they are all murderous bastards without a conscious.
It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.
I think most people who dont understand full loot are people who play gear games like wow, full loot is only good when gear is relitively easy to re-aquire. obviously in a gear centric game where you raid for weeks to get an item losing it would suck.
in WoW the body dies, then returns to life upon merging with the spirit. that's temporary death.
in EVE the body dies, then stays dead for ever. that's permanent death.
the spirit however is immune to death and eternal. in both.
What a load of crap. In BOTH cases, you get a new body for your "spirit". Ergo, neither game has perma-death.
Perma-death implies that death is PERMANENT. In case you forgot what the word means, that means no new body. No reincarnation. No passing your gear and money to descendants or clones of your character. You die, and that's it.
I never seen the appeal to it, I guess it'll appeal mostly to griefers than anything else. Full looting on pve/pvp death is why games like darkfall end up going under, it just doesn't attract the casual crowd which sadly is probally 80% or higher of the total mmorpg players no thanks to world of warcraft for this though. I think Battlestar Galatica online did it well, when you pk another player the player loses a bit of money due to repairing their ship, and the killer gains pvp points, exp, and loot from a npc loot table of a mob that players level, cept pvp kills usually give slightly better loot than killing a npc. This way the killer still gets rewarded and the player doesn't suffer losing everything he has on him. I, myself won't play darkfall due to its full looting system, that and when I played the game in a free trial they had/have, it was as boring as watching dog shit ferment on the grass.
The Pve was horrible, and pvp thats too risky to just casually try to fight someone so I never bothered. I am also a fan of games that have pvp where the combatants levels don't matter much, Example of this is Battlestar Galatica online, and Fallen earth. In both games if you have the player skill you can kill someone far higher level than you are. Alot of mmo's give a bonus to attack and defense for each level your above your target, while this is fine for pve, it makes pvp end up being whoever is higher level=insta wins till level cap. Aion was notoriously bad for this to the point that pvp below max level is totally not worth it. Here's a Story. Me and my friend who at the time my friend was 3 lvs higher than me and the same class, so we decided to both buy the SAME gear from npc, even though he could use the next tier of gear up. Then we had a dual using just normal attacks.. what happened? being in the same gear, him being 3 levels higher, he pretty much slaughtered me, was hitting me 1.5-3x as hard as I could hit him. Take note that we both were the same class, and both had the exact same npc bought gear. Only diffrence was him being 3 higher in level. Alot of games that yap about skill based pvp, don't mention that level tends to own all overall.
I am a picky pvper though, I'll only pvp if I feel its worth it, as in Arena based pvp like wow had while fun, is just a waste of my time since it has no goal or no real benefit. Games where pvp has a point: Fallen Earth, Aion, DAoC, Globa Agenda. ALl of these have land control and such, or have a skill/talent system based on pvp exp, making pvp so much more rewarding. More games honestly need to learn from DAOC about how to make fun pvp. You raid for gear in pve in daoc (before spellcrafting anyway) then you'd take said pve raid gear and go kick the other realms asses.. This also game a point to pve raiding too. Raiding in WoW and Rift are both wastes of time, due to nothing to really use the gear for.
Anyway I kinda veered off topic here but oh well.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Full loot PVP... Even if it was just full loot PVE. It makes you think. You just cannot go running into a bunch of mobs without a care in the world and say "bleh, I died", so I have to run back to the corpse to continue playing... There is causality to your actions. There are consequences. I am not a huge fan of this system, but I've played some darkfall and in it and the mob AI is pretty relentless. The game is hard and a new player is definitely not hold by the hand in this game. The first camp of goblins will smack you back to last year if you don't play it smart... This kind of PVE I would love to see in all the MMO games. You are a nobody when you start out, and even the first mobs you run into laugh at you. And they aren't there to bend over and take it like you know what...
Some of the most exhilarating experiences in Darkfall have been times when you've done something stupid and gotten yourself killed in the middle of a mob camp. Just running to your gravestone, grabbing all you can possibly grab, and run away before the mobs kill you again. There is no "loot all" button which is nice in this game. That sense of danger and excitement is something that you just don't get in games like WOW.
And after you get hit in PVP, well, there is the fact that the guy who just dumped you, took a whole bunch of your stuff with him... And to tell you the truth, not once was I fully looted in Darkfall. The gear you use in the game gets worn out and breaks down and there is really very little cash to be made with vendoring the stuff. And besides, the attacker needs to hi-tail it out of there so he can't be found when the player returns. So no one truly "full loots" even if it is possible. You usually lose your cash and spell reagents to PVP attacks, the weapons, armor etc. are pretty useless unless they are of higher quality than the ones you are wearing.
And these games are not based on PVE loot. They simply cannot be. These games usually rely quite heavily on crafted goods. You could train your crafting skills and make a living on the stuff you make as it is actually in demand. And not like in WOW, when you have to create 500 pieces of crappy items to finally make that one item someone might actually want -> as in a major time sink for absolutely nothing. I am somewhat of a crafter at heart and as such, I've tried to get into it in almost every game I've tried. Darkfall had a good system for it, I just hate the whole "watch bar fill up" execution of it all. In all honesty there should be a better system for it.
But what were talking, ah, yes, what is the appeal of full loot. It brings the game a bit more sense of "reality". When you die, you really feel bad about it. You just don't get back up and keep on rolling. You need to re-equip, get your gear back etc. It's not like you can take you money with you to the afterlife in real life either. This makes you think more, where should you attack even the PVE mobs, you have to know when it is time to get out of the fight and run. You have to have a better view of the game and not just blindly mash those buttons in a specific order to produce "win" in all instances...
And the bottom line is this! When you WIN, it feels so much better when there is a higher risk involved. You get a higher feeling of accomplishment when you win when you know all you risked to do it. And this is ultimately the feeling that is so highly diluted in games like World of Warcraft. You don't feel like you accomplished anything after taking down that instance boss and especially if he did not drop that nice lewt you were there for.
According to the literal definition of "permadeath". Something that is permanent is PERMANENT.
If all these PvP tough guys who talk about how hardcore they are REALLY wanted to prove their manhood in a game, they'd demand one with REAL permadeath, where dying meant you immediately lost your character and had to start over from the beginning. No clones, no descendants, no reincarnation, nothing. Death is death, and there's no take-backs or salvaging the gear, armor, or money you worked to grind out. As soon as you die, it's back to the beginning for you.
Anything less isn't permadeath. It's just a death penalty.
in WoW the body dies, then returns to life upon merging with the spirit. that's temporary death.
in EVE the body dies, then stays dead for ever. that's permanent death.
the spirit however is immune to death and eternal. in both.
What a load of crap. In BOTH cases, you get a new body for your "spirit". Ergo, neither game has perma-death.
Perma-death implies that death is PERMANENT. In case you forgot what the word means, that means no new body. No reincarnation. No passing your gear and money to descendants or clones of your character. You die, and that's it.
according to whom?
In using the term "permadeath" it refers to the permanent deletion of your character upon death. Some MUD's had this back in the day, but I dont know any instance of an MMO employing this. Its pretty stupid, IMO. I dont even think hardcore PKs would play it.
And honestly what is the big deal with full loot. Few MMO's have full loot and IMO its a bit extreme, and I consider myself a PvP'r. Asheron's Call and Shadowbane had it right, with Partial Loot. You drop a couple valuble items on you randomly, viola, that is a system I would love. The right balance of risk and reward. These current themeparks where you keep all your items is not for me, makes death meaningless.
By "playing smart" the advocate makes much more reward than they ever actually risk at the game. And as such, the risk/reward balance is off.
I dont see anything wrong with this. What I do see a problem with is the unspoken assumption that the hunter shouldn't have to play smart just because he has not gone out with the intention of PvPing.
There's a saying in EVE: "You consent to PvP when you undock". It has been said so often that it's a cliche by now, but that doesn't stop it being true. Some players think that it doesn't apply to them mostly on the basis that they don't want it to. Others play the game as it is, rather than some imaginary version that only exists inside their head.
I've spent the last 3 months "hunting" (Missioning, in EVE terms) in one of the most hostile environment the game has to offer (Hale constellation in Curse region) and I haven't been caught once while doing it.
And despite the dozens of players who would all dearly love to gank me and take my stuff, I've profited enormously.
Because I've accepted that I'm in a FFA full loot environment, and have adjusted my playstyle accordingly. I treat any unknown as hostile. I assume that I'm being actively hunted at all times. I use a ship/fit that kills rats a little slower and tanks much less effectively than the best I could use, but which is far harder to catch. In short, I "play smart" too.
Is it "fair" that I have to deal with dozens of the best PvPers in the game hunting me in a weakly defended PvE ship? Maybe not. I don't give a damb. "Fair" is for children. I accept the challenge, take the risk, and manipulate the situation right back.
in WoW the body dies, then returns to life upon merging with the spirit. that's temporary death.
in EVE the body dies, then stays dead for ever. that's permanent death.
the spirit however is immune to death and eternal. in both.
What a load of crap. In BOTH cases, you get a new body for your "spirit". Ergo, neither game has perma-death.
Perma-death implies that death is PERMANENT. In case you forgot what the word means, that means no new body. No reincarnation. No passing your gear and money to descendants or clones of your character. You die, and that's it.
according to whom?
In using the term "permadeath" it refers to the permanent deletion of your character upon death. Some MUD's had this back in the day, but I dont know any instance of an MMO employing this. Its pretty stupid, IMO. I dont even think hardcore PKs would play it.
And honestly what is the big deal with full loot. Few MMO's have full loot and IMO its a bit extreme, and I consider myself a PvP'r. Asheron's Call and Shadowbane had it right, with Partial Loot. You drop a couple valuble items on you randomly, viola, that is a system I would love. The right balance of risk and reward. These current themeparks where you keep all your items is not for me, makes death meaningless.
Just to hop in - this is the correct definition of permadeath in this context. It's a gaming term - Diablo (1 or 2? I forget) had it for Hardcore ladder players for example - you die, lose your character, it's gone forever.
It is a pretty brutal tactic. Full-loot means you lose what you're carrying, Perma-death means you lose everything you've worked on, on that char up to that point.
Haven and Hearth does have permadeath, mostly - however you can create a "descendant" char that gets 25% of your old char's experience to start. 25% is really not that much though - think about restarting at level ~20 in WoW after your max-level char dies.
I like the full loot pvp in mmorpgs. Just because it somehow forces people to find allies and be nice to survive out there, resulting in a better community most of the time. Another point is mostly these games come with pretty good crafting systems that makes crafting a valid profession to pursue.
Permadeath could accomplish this as well, but the problem with permadeath is that you will lose all the time you invested in a character. Where as with full loot pvp, you will still retain your skills/levels and only lose a part of investment in the form of you equipement. And you can regain this in a small amount of time as you still have your level/skills.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
It's all about the excitement, the unknown and using your wits to survive.
The adrenaline a player gets from a game like Darkfall just cannot be experienced in say a game like guild wars or WoW. When players are unsure of what might occur at any given moment it makes them use their senses more, they listen, observe and are generally more alert than a player in a non loot game.
Then of course there’s the camaraderie that players develop as they battle against others to survive. Clans tend to be more tight knit than in other games as they really do depend upon one another for team work to battle through for a win, because a loss hurts in full loot games.
Full loot games also force a player to interact with others, players can go solo, but a player will still needs others to experience the MMO part of the genre, something current MMO's don't require you to do. The trend unfortunately these days is to reward players with carrots even if they choose not to participate with others in achieving goals, thus removing the MMO part, thankfully there are a few heroes still battling against this trend in the likes of MO, EvE, and Darkfall.
in WoW the body dies, then returns to life upon merging with the spirit. that's temporary death.
in EVE the body dies, then stays dead for ever. that's permanent death.
the spirit however is immune to death and eternal. in both.
What a load of crap. In BOTH cases, you get a new body for your "spirit". Ergo, neither game has perma-death.
Perma-death implies that death is PERMANENT. In case you forgot what the word means, that means no new body. No reincarnation. No passing your gear and money to descendants or clones of your character. You die, and that's it.
according to whom?
In using the term "permadeath" it refers to the permanent deletion of your character upon death. Some MUD's had this back in the day, but I dont know any instance of an MMO employing this. Its pretty stupid, IMO. I dont even think hardcore PKs would play it.
And honestly what is the big deal with full loot. Few MMO's have full loot and IMO its a bit extreme, and I consider myself a PvP'r. Asheron's Call and Shadowbane had it right, with Partial Loot. You drop a couple valuble items on you randomly, viola, that is a system I would love. The right balance of risk and reward. These current themeparks where you keep all your items is not for me, makes death meaningless.
Just to hop in - this is the correct definition of permadeath in this context. It's a gaming term - Diablo (1 or 2? I forget) had it for Hardcore ladder players for example - you die, lose your character, it's gone forever.
It is a pretty brutal tactic. Full-loot means you lose what you're carrying, Perma-death means you lose everything you've worked on, on that char up to that point.
Haven and Hearth does have permadeath, mostly - however you can create a "descendant" char that gets 25% of your old char's experience to start. 25% is really not that much though - think about restarting at level ~20 in WoW after your max-level char dies.
Ye they are quiet a few nuance now into the perma death feature. There is also the good arcade perma death on life counter that is a nice idea too. I'm still waiting for a good perma death mmo, one that will be centered into rping.
Speaking as an OG Ultima Online PKer, full loot is all about griefing. It's feeling good that not only did you take something away from someone else, but you took everything, and all of their hard work to get items just paid off for you becuase you're better than they are. Then they rage and the ensueing fireworks of emotion are pretty entertaining. It's the same reason douche bags talk shit in any FPS/RTS when you're clearly outmatched by their skill. They're already on top, but they feel like they need to prove something, and they can only be satisfied when you're frothing at the mouth and punching your cat.
Of course, I was a teenage asshole then, and I've grown up and moved on from the idea that taking someone elses things and then talking shit makes me cool. I've got other tangible things in my life that validate my existence, I don't need to do that anymore. Really the only people who enjoy or advocate these full loot systems now are people who have the skills to win any PvP fight, and just want to take your stuff.
I leave those kinds of games to the youngin's out there who can compete, and I'll stick to MMOs that let me keep my things when I inevitably die.
Quote of the week, so true which I guess is why I prefer PVP systems that let me mitigate my risk since I've never had the skills to win many PVP fights unless part of a larger team.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I like full loot PvP because it gives me a sense of danger. Unfortunately I suck at it, so I receive a lot of danger, but don't give much danger to others. I like a little consequence in my games besides, a 5 minute reduction in stats or some such.
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
It's a concept a lot of new MMORPG gamers can't get their head around. I'm not saying that to be condisending....it literally is a completely different concept to modern MMORPGs.
In games like WOW, RIFT, Warhammer, LOTRO, etc......your MAIN objective in the game is gear progression. Just about everything you do in the game is to get gear that will allow you to fight harder monsters....wait for it.....that gives better gear.
It may take a WOW player MONTHS to get a piece of gear. Losing said piece of gear it literally took you months for would obviously not work...and is the reason you don't see full loot systems modern MMORPGs. People would quit in droves.
On the other side of the fence, games like Ultima Online were able to get away with a full loot system because gear was common. Meaning, the majority of the gear you used in the game came from player crafters. In these "sandbox" type of MMORPGs, you aren't measured by the gear you have....but your wealth. Replacing a set of armor & weapon would equate to 10-30 minutes of hunting monsters ....not MONTHS.
Also, because PvPers & PvEers have to purchase new items on a more frequent basis, than players in games like WOW, a demand is created and other players fill those gaps in the market. This allows for dedicated crafting professions to fill the demand of a player driven economy. This allows for players who don't enjoy hack n' slashing to have a place in the game and experience end game wealth....right along the adventurers killing big bad monsters.
Full loot PvP also provides JUST enough motivation to make people critically evaluate what they did wrong, and what they did right at the end of a failed encounter. Where ase I've found in my experience in games like WOW, that don't have any sort of slap on the wrist for failing, that many players just rez up and do the EXACT SAME FAIL THING they just did. They are never forced to critically think about what they did wrong or right....and as a result, they never improve.
TLDR: The full loot system creates a game dynamic where players are having to replace thier "relatively cheap" often enough to the point where it creates an opprotunity for crafters & other non combat types to earn a living and prosper.
It also serves as a motivator to make people THINK more about what they are doing instead of just mashing buttons and hoping for the best. Corpse walks & 30 second spawn timers just dont' do enough to make people critically evaluate what they are doing.
in WoW the body dies, then returns to life upon merging with the spirit. that's temporary death.
in EVE the body dies, then stays dead for ever. that's permanent death.
the spirit however is immune to death and eternal. in both.
What a load of crap. In BOTH cases, you get a new body for your "spirit". Ergo, neither game has perma-death.
Perma-death implies that death is PERMANENT. In case you forgot what the word means, that means no new body. No reincarnation. No passing your gear and money to descendants or clones of your character. You die, and that's it.
according to whom?
In using the term "permadeath" it refers to the permanent deletion of your character upon death. Some MUD's had this back in the day, but I dont know any instance of an MMO employing this. Its pretty stupid, IMO. I dont even think hardcore PKs would play it.
And honestly what is the big deal with full loot. Few MMO's have full loot and IMO its a bit extreme, and I consider myself a PvP'r. Asheron's Call and Shadowbane had it right, with Partial Loot. You drop a couple valuble items on you randomly, viola, that is a system I would love. The right balance of risk and reward. These current themeparks where you keep all your items is not for me, makes death meaningless.
Just to hop in - this is the correct definition of permadeath in this context. It's a gaming term - Diablo (1 or 2? I forget) had it for Hardcore ladder players for example - you die, lose your character, it's gone forever.
It is a pretty brutal tactic. Full-loot means you lose what you're carrying, Perma-death means you lose everything you've worked on, on that char up to that point.
Haven and Hearth does have permadeath, mostly - however you can create a "descendant" char that gets 25% of your old char's experience to start. 25% is really not that much though - think about restarting at level ~20 in WoW after your max-level char dies.
Ye they are quiet a few nuance now into the perma death feature. There is also the good arcade perma death on life counter that is a nice idea too. I'm still waiting for a good perma death mmo, one that will be centered into rping.
This is a reply directed towards the entire perma-death conversation as a whole:
EVE does infact contain both of your definitions of perma-death. If you forget to clone yourself in EVE, say goodbye to years worth of skills if you get pod-killed. Your character will be completely reset like a day 1 character, and you're fucked.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
there is no adrenaline rush like the one you get when you pvp in a free for all full loot game. when you know you will loose everything you have on you, the juices really start flowing. it's also incredibly fun an rewarding to be able to take your opponent's stuff once you'v killed him. that's when pvp starts to actually mean something.
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
No thanks.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
No thanks.
Mendel...
There is a "karma system" in most of these Free For All games. I can only speak to Ultima Online....yes, there were some scavengers that would hang around fights......but looting a corpse that you didn't kill (or delt the majority of the damage to) would have turned you into a criminal and temporarily flagged you open for PvP for up to 2 minutes of without commiting another crime.
So if someone started looting a body that you killed, that someone would flag open for combat and would be a sitting duck to the person still standing. They can't put up much of a fight without armor, weapon, potions, bandages, etc. In my experience, not many of these "ninjas" get away with the crime.
Full Loot PvP? Isn't that what is happening in London? But seriously, I haven't heard of anything like this in a long time. But there is a certain mental outlook that this will appeal to. I can't relate to them myself, it's a tad creepy.
Speaking as an OG Ultima Online PKer, full loot is all about griefing. It's feeling good that not only did you take something away from someone else, but you took everything, and all of their hard work to get items just paid off for you becuase you're better than they are. Then they rage and the ensueing fireworks of emotion are pretty entertaining. It's the same reason douche bags talk shit in any FPS/RTS when you're clearly outmatched by their skill. They're already on top, but they feel like they need to prove something, and they can only be satisfied when you're frothing at the mouth and punching your cat.
Of course, I was a teenage asshole then, and I've grown up and moved on from the idea that taking someone elses things and then talking shit makes me cool. I've got other tangible things in my life that validate my existence, I don't need to do that anymore. Really the only people who enjoy or advocate these full loot systems now are people who have the skills to win any PvP fight, and just want to take your stuff.
I leave those kinds of games to the youngin's out there who can compete, and I'll stick to MMOs that let me keep my things when I inevitably die.
Quote of the week, so true which I guess is why I prefer PVP systems that let me mitigate my risk since I've never had the skills to win many PVP fights unless part of a larger team.
Glad
I beg to differ...
Full Loot can only exist in a game where items are common (or cheap). in such a game, gear does not determine the outcome of a fight...skills do. It's a different appraoch to modern MMORPGs, that use gear as a carrot to lead the players around their themepark.
Full Loot also creates a "gear" sink, creating a demand for full time crafters to replenish their stock of armor, weapons, and consumables.....ALL stuff other players in the game make, and earn wealth from. This gives way for a full time crafter / gatherer class or play style, that doesn't have to go out fighting monsters to earn wealth. They do so in a player driven economy.
Full Loot Systems also make people critically think about what they did wrong, and what they did right at the end of a fight. If you plan on playing the game for a substantial period of time...you BETTER critically think about what your doing or else you'll just be a gear pinata for the opposition. So you'll notice the average community is overall more attuned & skilled with their character than you find in modern MMOs. (I'm talking about average playerbase)
Anyone thats played a battleground in WOW can attest to the idiocy on display in any given match......where players repeatedly run their heads into a wall over and over....and any sort of instruction or advice is met with silence or smart remarks about your mother's footwear.
So yea....there are a few more intangibles associated with a Full Loot MMORPG than just "griefing" a fellow player.
Full Loot PvP? Isn't that what is happening in London? But seriously, I haven't heard of anything like this in a long time. But there is a certain mental outlook that this will appeal to. I can't relate to them myself, it's a tad creepy.
Not quite....Full Loot ensures that you have some "skin" in the game, forcing you to behave more responsibly with your items & character. These yobs in England have ZERO skin in the game, but I digress....
If you read my post below, I list several intangible benefits of having a Full Loot system....most of which do not appeal to the small percentage of players in Full Loot games (PKers)
But even with those griefers present, PKers create a demand for Anti-PKers. We called this Red vs Blue fights before other fanctions were made available.
I actually got started PvPing because I got tired of killing the easy monsters and wanted a bigger challenge.....so I fashioned myself a law man and went after evil PKers. Whole guilds formed to do nothing more than sweep up the roaming PKers. Some FFA games have bounty systems that give opprotunity for an equally capable PvPer (who is not RED) to go out and hunt the badies down....and earn a nice buck while they are at it.
Full Loot can only exist in a game where items are common (or cheap). in such a game, gear does not determine the outcome of a fight...skills do. It's a different appraoch to modern MMORPGs, that use gear as a carrot to lead the players around their themepark.
I don't agree with that.
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
Full Loot can only exist in a game where items are common (or cheap). in such a game, gear does not determine the outcome of a fight...skills do. It's a different appraoch to modern MMORPGs, that use gear as a carrot to lead the players around their themepark.
I don't agree with that.
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
The big difference with WOW, in comparison to other FFA games, is that the game is designed around taking you a LOOONG time to get gear (since it's a gear progression game). Other FFA games make gear easy & cheap to get so that a loss doesn't render your character useless.
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I'm no full loot pvp fan, myself, but that's a little much. I don't think they are all murderous bastards without a conscious.
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I think most people who dont understand full loot are people who play gear games like wow, full loot is only good when gear is relitively easy to re-aquire. obviously in a gear centric game where you raid for weeks to get an item losing it would suck.
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What a load of crap. In BOTH cases, you get a new body for your "spirit". Ergo, neither game has perma-death.
Perma-death implies that death is PERMANENT. In case you forgot what the word means, that means no new body. No reincarnation. No passing your gear and money to descendants or clones of your character. You die, and that's it.
I never seen the appeal to it, I guess it'll appeal mostly to griefers than anything else. Full looting on pve/pvp death is why games like darkfall end up going under, it just doesn't attract the casual crowd which sadly is probally 80% or higher of the total mmorpg players no thanks to world of warcraft for this though. I think Battlestar Galatica online did it well, when you pk another player the player loses a bit of money due to repairing their ship, and the killer gains pvp points, exp, and loot from a npc loot table of a mob that players level, cept pvp kills usually give slightly better loot than killing a npc. This way the killer still gets rewarded and the player doesn't suffer losing everything he has on him. I, myself won't play darkfall due to its full looting system, that and when I played the game in a free trial they had/have, it was as boring as watching dog shit ferment on the grass.
The Pve was horrible, and pvp thats too risky to just casually try to fight someone so I never bothered. I am also a fan of games that have pvp where the combatants levels don't matter much, Example of this is Battlestar Galatica online, and Fallen earth. In both games if you have the player skill you can kill someone far higher level than you are. Alot of mmo's give a bonus to attack and defense for each level your above your target, while this is fine for pve, it makes pvp end up being whoever is higher level=insta wins till level cap. Aion was notoriously bad for this to the point that pvp below max level is totally not worth it. Here's a Story. Me and my friend who at the time my friend was 3 lvs higher than me and the same class, so we decided to both buy the SAME gear from npc, even though he could use the next tier of gear up. Then we had a dual using just normal attacks.. what happened? being in the same gear, him being 3 levels higher, he pretty much slaughtered me, was hitting me 1.5-3x as hard as I could hit him. Take note that we both were the same class, and both had the exact same npc bought gear. Only diffrence was him being 3 higher in level. Alot of games that yap about skill based pvp, don't mention that level tends to own all overall.
I am a picky pvper though, I'll only pvp if I feel its worth it, as in Arena based pvp like wow had while fun, is just a waste of my time since it has no goal or no real benefit. Games where pvp has a point: Fallen Earth, Aion, DAoC, Globa Agenda. ALl of these have land control and such, or have a skill/talent system based on pvp exp, making pvp so much more rewarding. More games honestly need to learn from DAOC about how to make fun pvp. You raid for gear in pve in daoc (before spellcrafting anyway) then you'd take said pve raid gear and go kick the other realms asses.. This also game a point to pve raiding too. Raiding in WoW and Rift are both wastes of time, due to nothing to really use the gear for.
Anyway I kinda veered off topic here but oh well.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Full loot PVP... Even if it was just full loot PVE. It makes you think. You just cannot go running into a bunch of mobs without a care in the world and say "bleh, I died", so I have to run back to the corpse to continue playing... There is causality to your actions. There are consequences. I am not a huge fan of this system, but I've played some darkfall and in it and the mob AI is pretty relentless. The game is hard and a new player is definitely not hold by the hand in this game. The first camp of goblins will smack you back to last year if you don't play it smart... This kind of PVE I would love to see in all the MMO games. You are a nobody when you start out, and even the first mobs you run into laugh at you. And they aren't there to bend over and take it like you know what...
Some of the most exhilarating experiences in Darkfall have been times when you've done something stupid and gotten yourself killed in the middle of a mob camp. Just running to your gravestone, grabbing all you can possibly grab, and run away before the mobs kill you again. There is no "loot all" button which is nice in this game. That sense of danger and excitement is something that you just don't get in games like WOW.
And after you get hit in PVP, well, there is the fact that the guy who just dumped you, took a whole bunch of your stuff with him... And to tell you the truth, not once was I fully looted in Darkfall. The gear you use in the game gets worn out and breaks down and there is really very little cash to be made with vendoring the stuff. And besides, the attacker needs to hi-tail it out of there so he can't be found when the player returns. So no one truly "full loots" even if it is possible. You usually lose your cash and spell reagents to PVP attacks, the weapons, armor etc. are pretty useless unless they are of higher quality than the ones you are wearing.
And these games are not based on PVE loot. They simply cannot be. These games usually rely quite heavily on crafted goods. You could train your crafting skills and make a living on the stuff you make as it is actually in demand. And not like in WOW, when you have to create 500 pieces of crappy items to finally make that one item someone might actually want -> as in a major time sink for absolutely nothing. I am somewhat of a crafter at heart and as such, I've tried to get into it in almost every game I've tried. Darkfall had a good system for it, I just hate the whole "watch bar fill up" execution of it all. In all honesty there should be a better system for it.
But what were talking, ah, yes, what is the appeal of full loot. It brings the game a bit more sense of "reality". When you die, you really feel bad about it. You just don't get back up and keep on rolling. You need to re-equip, get your gear back etc. It's not like you can take you money with you to the afterlife in real life either. This makes you think more, where should you attack even the PVE mobs, you have to know when it is time to get out of the fight and run. You have to have a better view of the game and not just blindly mash those buttons in a specific order to produce "win" in all instances...
And the bottom line is this! When you WIN, it feels so much better when there is a higher risk involved. You get a higher feeling of accomplishment when you win when you know all you risked to do it. And this is ultimately the feeling that is so highly diluted in games like World of Warcraft. You don't feel like you accomplished anything after taking down that instance boss and especially if he did not drop that nice lewt you were there for.
According to the literal definition of "permadeath". Something that is permanent is PERMANENT.
If all these PvP tough guys who talk about how hardcore they are REALLY wanted to prove their manhood in a game, they'd demand one with REAL permadeath, where dying meant you immediately lost your character and had to start over from the beginning. No clones, no descendants, no reincarnation, nothing. Death is death, and there's no take-backs or salvaging the gear, armor, or money you worked to grind out. As soon as you die, it's back to the beginning for you.
Anything less isn't permadeath. It's just a death penalty.
In using the term "permadeath" it refers to the permanent deletion of your character upon death. Some MUD's had this back in the day, but I dont know any instance of an MMO employing this. Its pretty stupid, IMO. I dont even think hardcore PKs would play it.
And honestly what is the big deal with full loot. Few MMO's have full loot and IMO its a bit extreme, and I consider myself a PvP'r. Asheron's Call and Shadowbane had it right, with Partial Loot. You drop a couple valuble items on you randomly, viola, that is a system I would love. The right balance of risk and reward. These current themeparks where you keep all your items is not for me, makes death meaningless.
I dont see anything wrong with this. What I do see a problem with is the unspoken assumption that the hunter shouldn't have to play smart just because he has not gone out with the intention of PvPing.
There's a saying in EVE: "You consent to PvP when you undock". It has been said so often that it's a cliche by now, but that doesn't stop it being true. Some players think that it doesn't apply to them mostly on the basis that they don't want it to. Others play the game as it is, rather than some imaginary version that only exists inside their head.
I've spent the last 3 months "hunting" (Missioning, in EVE terms) in one of the most hostile environment the game has to offer (Hale constellation in Curse region) and I haven't been caught once while doing it.
And despite the dozens of players who would all dearly love to gank me and take my stuff, I've profited enormously.
Because I've accepted that I'm in a FFA full loot environment, and have adjusted my playstyle accordingly. I treat any unknown as hostile. I assume that I'm being actively hunted at all times. I use a ship/fit that kills rats a little slower and tanks much less effectively than the best I could use, but which is far harder to catch. In short, I "play smart" too.
Is it "fair" that I have to deal with dozens of the best PvPers in the game hunting me in a weakly defended PvE ship? Maybe not. I don't give a damb. "Fair" is for children. I accept the challenge, take the risk, and manipulate the situation right back.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Just to hop in - this is the correct definition of permadeath in this context. It's a gaming term - Diablo (1 or 2? I forget) had it for Hardcore ladder players for example - you die, lose your character, it's gone forever.
It is a pretty brutal tactic. Full-loot means you lose what you're carrying, Perma-death means you lose everything you've worked on, on that char up to that point.
Haven and Hearth does have permadeath, mostly - however you can create a "descendant" char that gets 25% of your old char's experience to start. 25% is really not that much though - think about restarting at level ~20 in WoW after your max-level char dies.
I like the full loot pvp in mmorpgs. Just because it somehow forces people to find allies and be nice to survive out there, resulting in a better community most of the time. Another point is mostly these games come with pretty good crafting systems that makes crafting a valid profession to pursue.
Permadeath could accomplish this as well, but the problem with permadeath is that you will lose all the time you invested in a character. Where as with full loot pvp, you will still retain your skills/levels and only lose a part of investment in the form of you equipement. And you can regain this in a small amount of time as you still have your level/skills.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
It's all about the excitement, the unknown and using your wits to survive.
The adrenaline a player gets from a game like Darkfall just cannot be experienced in say a game like guild wars or WoW. When players are unsure of what might occur at any given moment it makes them use their senses more, they listen, observe and are generally more alert than a player in a non loot game.
Then of course there’s the camaraderie that players develop as they battle against others to survive. Clans tend to be more tight knit than in other games as they really do depend upon one another for team work to battle through for a win, because a loss hurts in full loot games.
Full loot games also force a player to interact with others, players can go solo, but a player will still needs others to experience the MMO part of the genre, something current MMO's don't require you to do. The trend unfortunately these days is to reward players with carrots even if they choose not to participate with others in achieving goals, thus removing the MMO part, thankfully there are a few heroes still battling against this trend in the likes of MO, EvE, and Darkfall.
Ye they are quiet a few nuance now into the perma death feature. There is also the good arcade perma death on life counter that is a nice idea too. I'm still waiting for a good perma death mmo, one that will be centered into rping.
Quote of the week, so true which I guess is why I prefer PVP systems that let me mitigate my risk since I've never had the skills to win many PVP fights unless part of a larger team.
Glad
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I like full loot PvP because it gives me a sense of danger. Unfortunately I suck at it, so I receive a lot of danger, but don't give much danger to others. I like a little consequence in my games besides, a 5 minute reduction in stats or some such.
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It's a concept a lot of new MMORPG gamers can't get their head around. I'm not saying that to be condisending....it literally is a completely different concept to modern MMORPGs.
In games like WOW, RIFT, Warhammer, LOTRO, etc......your MAIN objective in the game is gear progression. Just about everything you do in the game is to get gear that will allow you to fight harder monsters....wait for it.....that gives better gear.
It may take a WOW player MONTHS to get a piece of gear. Losing said piece of gear it literally took you months for would obviously not work...and is the reason you don't see full loot systems modern MMORPGs. People would quit in droves.
On the other side of the fence, games like Ultima Online were able to get away with a full loot system because gear was common. Meaning, the majority of the gear you used in the game came from player crafters. In these "sandbox" type of MMORPGs, you aren't measured by the gear you have....but your wealth. Replacing a set of armor & weapon would equate to 10-30 minutes of hunting monsters ....not MONTHS.
Also, because PvPers & PvEers have to purchase new items on a more frequent basis, than players in games like WOW, a demand is created and other players fill those gaps in the market. This allows for dedicated crafting professions to fill the demand of a player driven economy. This allows for players who don't enjoy hack n' slashing to have a place in the game and experience end game wealth....right along the adventurers killing big bad monsters.
Full loot PvP also provides JUST enough motivation to make people critically evaluate what they did wrong, and what they did right at the end of a failed encounter. Where ase I've found in my experience in games like WOW, that don't have any sort of slap on the wrist for failing, that many players just rez up and do the EXACT SAME FAIL THING they just did. They are never forced to critically think about what they did wrong or right....and as a result, they never improve.
TLDR: The full loot system creates a game dynamic where players are having to replace thier "relatively cheap" often enough to the point where it creates an opprotunity for crafters & other non combat types to earn a living and prosper.
It also serves as a motivator to make people THINK more about what they are doing instead of just mashing buttons and hoping for the best. Corpse walks & 30 second spawn timers just dont' do enough to make people critically evaluate what they are doing.
This is a reply directed towards the entire perma-death conversation as a whole:
EVE does infact contain both of your definitions of perma-death. If you forget to clone yourself in EVE, say goodbye to years worth of skills if you get pod-killed. Your character will be completely reset like a day 1 character, and you're fucked.
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Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
there is no adrenaline rush like the one you get when you pvp in a free for all full loot game. when you know you will loose everything you have on you, the juices really start flowing. it's also incredibly fun an rewarding to be able to take your opponent's stuff once you'v killed him. that's when pvp starts to actually mean something.
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
No thanks.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Mendel...
There is a "karma system" in most of these Free For All games. I can only speak to Ultima Online....yes, there were some scavengers that would hang around fights......but looting a corpse that you didn't kill (or delt the majority of the damage to) would have turned you into a criminal and temporarily flagged you open for PvP for up to 2 minutes of without commiting another crime.
So if someone started looting a body that you killed, that someone would flag open for combat and would be a sitting duck to the person still standing. They can't put up much of a fight without armor, weapon, potions, bandages, etc. In my experience, not many of these "ninjas" get away with the crime.
Full Loot PvP? Isn't that what is happening in London? But seriously, I haven't heard of anything like this in a long time. But there is a certain mental outlook that this will appeal to. I can't relate to them myself, it's a tad creepy.
I beg to differ...
Full Loot can only exist in a game where items are common (or cheap). in such a game, gear does not determine the outcome of a fight...skills do. It's a different appraoch to modern MMORPGs, that use gear as a carrot to lead the players around their themepark.
Full Loot also creates a "gear" sink, creating a demand for full time crafters to replenish their stock of armor, weapons, and consumables.....ALL stuff other players in the game make, and earn wealth from. This gives way for a full time crafter / gatherer class or play style, that doesn't have to go out fighting monsters to earn wealth. They do so in a player driven economy.
Full Loot Systems also make people critically think about what they did wrong, and what they did right at the end of a fight. If you plan on playing the game for a substantial period of time...you BETTER critically think about what your doing or else you'll just be a gear pinata for the opposition. So you'll notice the average community is overall more attuned & skilled with their character than you find in modern MMOs. (I'm talking about average playerbase)
Anyone thats played a battleground in WOW can attest to the idiocy on display in any given match......where players repeatedly run their heads into a wall over and over....and any sort of instruction or advice is met with silence or smart remarks about your mother's footwear.
So yea....there are a few more intangibles associated with a Full Loot MMORPG than just "griefing" a fellow player.
Not quite....Full Loot ensures that you have some "skin" in the game, forcing you to behave more responsibly with your items & character. These yobs in England have ZERO skin in the game, but I digress....
If you read my post below, I list several intangible benefits of having a Full Loot system....most of which do not appeal to the small percentage of players in Full Loot games (PKers)
But even with those griefers present, PKers create a demand for Anti-PKers. We called this Red vs Blue fights before other fanctions were made available.
I actually got started PvPing because I got tired of killing the easy monsters and wanted a bigger challenge.....so I fashioned myself a law man and went after evil PKers. Whole guilds formed to do nothing more than sweep up the roaming PKers. Some FFA games have bounty systems that give opprotunity for an equally capable PvPer (who is not RED) to go out and hunt the badies down....and earn a nice buck while they are at it.
It really isn't all about griefing.
Great risk. Great reward.
I don't agree with that.
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
The big difference with WOW, in comparison to other FFA games, is that the game is designed around taking you a LOOONG time to get gear (since it's a gear progression game). Other FFA games make gear easy & cheap to get so that a loss doesn't render your character useless.