Not in EVE it doesn't. "Naked fighting" just means that you're in a capsule, literally unable to do anything move move around and talk.
Practically speaking, you can have nearly naked fighting ("thong fighting"? "mankini fighting"?) by flying, say, a Tech 1 frigate with only Tech 1 or Meta 1-2 mods, but you're greatly limiting your choice of targets. Also, regardless of the ship your fly, when you lose it, your pod is at risk, and getting podded means you have to buy a new clone. This can get quite expensive. The frigate I described would cost maybe 800,000-1 million ISK (About as much ISK as I can make in 30-40 seconds btw), but if I get podded, it will cost me 20 million ISK for a new clone, plus I will lose whatever implants I have (typically a couple of +4 learning implants @ 20 mill each).
So in practice, it is not cost-effective for me to fight in a mankini ship. My minimum risk going into a fight is 60 mill + the post-insurance cost of the ship+fit I'm in, so if I have twice as good a chance of surviving the fight in a 50 mill ship as I do in a T1 fitted frigate, then it makes sense for me to fly the more expensive ship. (50 mill is about the cost of a Tech 2-fitted battlecruiser with rigs, by the way). And the well fitted battlecruiser has a much better than twice the chance to survive a fight. It is in fact cheaper in the long run for me to fly good ships.
In actual practice it is cost effective for me to fly Tech 2 and Tech 3 cruisers, costing anwhere between 200 and 800M+ ISK in fights. Anyone who manages to kill me in one of my Tech 3 PvP ships will get a chance to loot some really nice stuff. It would take me about 10 hours of PvEing to replace my Tech 3s. (Faction Armour hardeners, True Sansha Warp Scamblers, Federation Navy Stasis Webs - if a couple of noobs in mankini Rifters managed to catch me off-guard and alone in one of my T3s, they could conceivably kill me, assuming they'd brought enough ammo. If even one or two of the good mods dropped, they'd make enough ISK to buy a hundred more ships. But it's still worth it for me to fly the T3s.
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
Can you make an argument without basing it on wild generalisations?
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually, I think MO has similar issues, Xyson also and I recall even back in Lineage 1, the two best gankers on my server used to fight in very average, (level 25 or so) cheap gear but since they were level 50's and fought in tandem they could take down any single target including the server's only level 57 at that time.
In that game, good players really couldn't drop much, but red players dropped everything hence they wore sheet gear for the fights they lost.
It's true, in a game like EVE you see very little naked fighting, but if an MMO isn't designed right, naked fighting will rule.
Even the holy grail of UO was not immune, an old clan of mine (Shadowclan) made it a specialty to naked fight/zerg opponents and built their entire rep on it.
Even in EVE, when Goons first hit the scene they made a name for themselves by zerging opponents with swarms of smaller less expensive ships. (now they zerg you with super caps)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually, I think MO has similar issues, Xyson also and I recall even back in Lineage 1, the two best gankers on my server used to fight in very average, (level 25 or so) cheap gear but since they were level 50's and fought in tandem they could take down any single target including the server's only level 57 at that time.
In that game, good players really couldn't drop much, but red players dropped everything hence they wore sheet gear for the fights they lost.
It's true, in a game like EVE you see very little naked fighting, but if an MMO isn't designed right, naked fighting will rule.
Even the holy grail of UO was not immune, an old clan of mine (Shadowclan) made it a specialty to naked fight/zerg opponents and built their entire rep on it.
Even in EVE, when Goons first hit the scene they made a name for themselves by zerging opponents with swarms of smaller less expensive ships. (now they zerg you with super caps)
There's a rather big difference between not needing epics/caps to fight and fighting naked. You are confusing the viability of all levels of gear with the uselessness of gear.
And if Shadowclan is now fighting naked, that's something new and rather odd. They normally fight in ring/studded (dependent on rank) with orc helms and GM crafted weapons. Even on Siege Perilous equipment is required.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
The analogy holds up. It's poker where you try not to play without an ace up your sleeve. The point is if nothing is won or lost where is the glory in that? Now I don't insist loot be won or lost but something has to be.
Analogy is total bullshit. Whats the risk running in gank group with crap gear, picking up single players ? There is ZERO risk at the organized gank squad side. Thats like going to playing poker without money for high stakes - you would be kicked from the table in a second.
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker.
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker.
Full Loot PvP games aren't solo friendly, bring friends next time and you will make it more risky for the attackers as well. Your argument goes both ways.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
After playing a few full loot MMORPG games over the past few years (Currently playing darkfall again) i dont think i could really ever go back to a standard MMO and have fun...
The rush you get from the risk involved, but also the fact you could kill someone and take all his hard earned loot.. it makes for a better game and brings in another lvl of PVP where people think more about tactics in a fight than just rushing in an trying to kill..
Sure this type of game is really not for everyone as some people cant get their head around loosing gear they have made or collected..
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker.
Full Loot PvP games aren't solo friendly, bring friends next time and you will make it more risky for the attackers as well. Your argument goes both ways.
It's not about solo play. Propoments of full loot always speak about how it is risk for both sides and ignore loopholes which alow to either completly avoid any risk or at least minimalizing it. And then even compare it with poker, i mean it's totaly laughable ... There is a reason why poker is played by milions of people for money and why full loot even though u dont loose real money is still only small niche of genre.
Actually, I think MO has similar issues, Xyson also and I recall even back in Lineage 1, the two best gankers on my server used to fight in very average, (level 25 or so) cheap gear but since they were level 50's and fought in tandem they could take down any single target including the server's only level 57 at that time.
In that game, good players really couldn't drop much, but red players dropped everything hence they wore sheet gear for the fights they lost.
It's true, in a game like EVE you see very little naked fighting, but if an MMO isn't designed right, naked fighting will rule.
Even the holy grail of UO was not immune, an old clan of mine (Shadowclan) made it a specialty to naked fight/zerg opponents and built their entire rep on it.
Even in EVE, when Goons first hit the scene they made a name for themselves by zerging opponents with swarms of smaller less expensive ships. (now they zerg you with super caps)
There's a rather big difference between not needing epics/caps to fight and fighting naked. You are confusing the viability of all levels of gear with the uselessness of gear.
And if Shadowclan is now fighting naked, that's something new and rather odd. They normally fight in ring/studded (dependent on rank) with orc helms and GM crafted weapons. Even on Siege Perilous equipment is required.
I was speaking of a time long ago, what you say about UO today is probably true, but that's not the same game now either.
I know there's a big difference between "naked" fighting which is normally only the trademark of ill funded indy titles and not practical in any well developed PVP model.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker.
Full Loot PvP games aren't solo friendly, bring friends next time and you will make it more risky for the attackers as well. Your argument goes both ways.
It's not about solo play. Propoments of full loot always speak about how it is risk for both sides and ignore loopholes which alow to either completly avoid any risk or at least minimalizing it. And then even compare it with poker, i mean it's totaly laughable ... There is a reason why poker is played by milions of people for money and why full loot even though u dont loose real money is still only small niche of genre.
For me, it's all about solo play. There's a much higher risk that way, but so is the prize. My win/lose ratio is about 50/50 in any MMO, with the exception of EVE where I got my ass kicked in nearly every encounter.
Games are shallow without it, you need a sense of danger in the world or its just boring to hell.
True. But on the other side of the coin, there is frustration, and that has no place in a game meant to be fun.
Some loss, to a degree, I can understand. But ressurecting naked, after loosing your armour and weapon (and being an RPG, I can only understand using the best you got) is a tremendous sense of loss.
And if you don't use a particular set of armour and weapon for the fear of loosing it.. well, this is just plain bad game design philosophy (at least for me).
Every game has a loss.
Losing is part of any comptitive game.
You don't hear people raging over loosing thier Empire in Monopoly? Well if you do those people just don't handle competition very well.
There are plenty of games where you risk hours of inventment into make believe things that you don't hear people reacting to the way you do in mmo pvp games and it really makes no sense to me.
The only thing that gets me some what upset is cheating.
After playing a few full loot MMORPG games over the past few years (Currently playing darkfall again) i dont think i could really ever go back to a standard MMO and have fun...
The rush you get from the risk involved, but also the fact you could kill someone and take all his hard earned loot.. it makes for a better game and brings in another lvl of PVP where people think more about tactics in a fight than just rushing in an trying to kill..
Sure this type of game is really not for everyone as some people cant get their head around loosing gear they have made or collected..
I agree.
I played Pve for year and years and it is way to boring and I can never go back any more.
Originally posted by Bhazir Originally posted by Malevil
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Malevil
Originally posted by busdriver
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING. I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me. His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference. I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about. You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker. Full Loot PvP games aren't solo friendly, bring friends next time and you will make it more risky for the attackers as well. Your argument goes both ways.
It's still not comparable with Poker. Poker is an individual effort. Poker is not full loot, you actually decide how much to put at risk every encounter. With poker, you can opt out of every encounter by simply choosing to do so (with the loss of whta you've put up so far). Full loot (usually open world) PvP is nothing like any type of sport or anything else that would show up on ESPN.
Full Loot (usually open world) PvP has more in common with gang warfare than anything else. That's not to say it's bad, just that there's not a whole lot in the real world that it's like.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people.
I am a huge fan of hardcore pvp. I like being able to kill someone and take some items they have on hand or lose mine at the same time. I wish more games would offer a server for the hardcore crowd but it is a small crowd so it doesn't happen too often.
You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people.
If you are not strong enough, you usually join a noob friendly clan so other noobs or protectors can cover your back.
As a newb in a full loot game like DF, i joined a zerg clan and we used to win most of the time. Now, i have an average character and im good. I lose more then i win because i feel strong enough to play with a small clan.
Thats how it is. You measure your level and you place yourself into a situation where you think you will get the most fun. I usually still have fun if i barely win or lose instead of zerg insta win. Some have fun by simply having 100% chance to win at any encounter.
Most of these games are sandbox, so you can chose if you either want it hard or easy. Your character level got nothing to do with that, its all politic.
At the end, its also your opinion. I wount play contra one without the cheat cuz i dont want to die 3 time and reset all over again. While for an old player, its the opposite.
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
The only point that I can see is to be able to grief people, and ruin their play experience. Some people (like the Goonies) get their jollies from such things. I simply will not play such games. The closest I've come in years was EVE. But I never left high sec, and I stayed in SWA (an NPC corp that can't be war dec'ed). Mostly what I did was run L4 missions and mine a bit, so I could collect battleships. The most expensive of which always stayed in the hanger.
Some people will no doubt talk about "danger" or "challenge" or "risk vs reward". What that usually boils down to is pwning newbies, and or griefing. Neither of which are good for a games business model in the modern western market.
You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people.
How very cliched of you.
IB4 moderation.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I personally haven't played full lot PvP, and I don't think I would. The frustration of losing everything would far outweigh any fun I might get in such a game. So, I would pass on that type of game.
There should be a type of PvP System where in PvP you have a certain rating depeding on K:D:A Ratios. The better your ratio, the more of a "rating" you have. Now when you kill a person with a HIGH rating, you get something like tokens or something along those lines of emblems. But they should make it so you can not trade or remove the emblems from your inventory. They are ALWAYS on you. When you kill someone you get X amount, and when you die you lose X amount.
The appeal of full loot pvp and/or destructible assets is not quite so obvious at first. Yeah it might be a rush to pvp knowing that you can lose all of your stuff... but that isn't the reason most people play these kinds of games. People play these kinds of games because the fact you can lose these things opens up so many different playstyles and creates a rich diverse world full of all types of players.
Eve online for example is a full loot/destructible item game. The fact that these items can be destroyed keeps the game moving for the players who enjoy crafting, market speculation, and anything market related in the game. Two things drive the economy in real life and in games. One being the destruction of assets/the need to replace things/updating to something new. The other is new accounts created/new alts created, and in the real world, births/population growth.
Take for example a game like world of warcraft. Prices of items that can't be destroyed can at best merely stabilize at a price barely above the cost to make it. These items are locked to the price it takes to create the item. (10 iron ingots costs x gold so 'super axe of death' will, after people start making them alot and the market stabilizes, will cost x, or barely over). The reason for this is, demand rises very incrementally due to new alts or accounts and people upgrading weapons. Whereas the capability to produce these items rises well above the demand. When this happens your economy is destroyed, and crafting is no longer a viable profession within the game, except just to do it because it's something you want to do. It cannot make you money, it cannot be anything more than a side distraction you do because you feel like it.
In a game with asset destruction and full loot you can have ALL KINDS of playstyles that simply aren't possible in any other kind of game. Sure it sucks when you die and lose your stuff, but then you go buy Joe Crafter's 'super axe of death' to replace it. This simple fact is what makes these kinds of games so great and so diverse. It creates a community of dependence on other players that you simply can't find in most modern mmos. This dependence on others, while it doesn't sound fun, creates complex and interesting interactions that themepark mmos simply cannot match. That's the only reason I keep playing mmos.
If you just want to kill the bad guy and respawn in a full suit of armor that's totally fine. There are tons of games for you. There is just a tradeoff with different kinds of games. If you want to have a robust economy, strong crafting system, and complex player interactions you simply MUST have some type of item decay or destruction. But for me personally, and if the subs for eve are any indication, asset destruction and loss are here to stay, and plenty of people enjoy it.
TLDR: Full loot/asset destruction games create opportunities for crafters, people who enjoy the economy, and make for more player interaction overall.
Comments
Not in EVE it doesn't. "Naked fighting" just means that you're in a capsule, literally unable to do anything move move around and talk.
Practically speaking, you can have nearly naked fighting ("thong fighting"? "mankini fighting"?) by flying, say, a Tech 1 frigate with only Tech 1 or Meta 1-2 mods, but you're greatly limiting your choice of targets. Also, regardless of the ship your fly, when you lose it, your pod is at risk, and getting podded means you have to buy a new clone. This can get quite expensive. The frigate I described would cost maybe 800,000-1 million ISK (About as much ISK as I can make in 30-40 seconds btw), but if I get podded, it will cost me 20 million ISK for a new clone, plus I will lose whatever implants I have (typically a couple of +4 learning implants @ 20 mill each).
So in practice, it is not cost-effective for me to fight in a mankini ship. My minimum risk going into a fight is 60 mill + the post-insurance cost of the ship+fit I'm in, so if I have twice as good a chance of surviving the fight in a 50 mill ship as I do in a T1 fitted frigate, then it makes sense for me to fly the more expensive ship. (50 mill is about the cost of a Tech 2-fitted battlecruiser with rigs, by the way). And the well fitted battlecruiser has a much better than twice the chance to survive a fight. It is in fact cheaper in the long run for me to fly good ships.
In actual practice it is cost effective for me to fly Tech 2 and Tech 3 cruisers, costing anwhere between 200 and 800M+ ISK in fights. Anyone who manages to kill me in one of my Tech 3 PvP ships will get a chance to loot some really nice stuff. It would take me about 10 hours of PvEing to replace my Tech 3s. (Faction Armour hardeners, True Sansha Warp Scamblers, Federation Navy Stasis Webs - if a couple of noobs in mankini Rifters managed to catch me off-guard and alone in one of my T3s, they could conceivably kill me, assuming they'd brought enough ammo. If even one or two of the good mods dropped, they'd make enough ISK to buy a hundred more ships. But it's still worth it for me to fly the T3s.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
Can you make an argument without basing it on wild generalisations?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually, I think MO has similar issues, Xyson also and I recall even back in Lineage 1, the two best gankers on my server used to fight in very average, (level 25 or so) cheap gear but since they were level 50's and fought in tandem they could take down any single target including the server's only level 57 at that time.
In that game, good players really couldn't drop much, but red players dropped everything hence they wore sheet gear for the fights they lost.
It's true, in a game like EVE you see very little naked fighting, but if an MMO isn't designed right, naked fighting will rule.
Even the holy grail of UO was not immune, an old clan of mine (Shadowclan) made it a specialty to naked fight/zerg opponents and built their entire rep on it.
Even in EVE, when Goons first hit the scene they made a name for themselves by zerging opponents with swarms of smaller less expensive ships. (now they zerg you with super caps)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's a rather big difference between not needing epics/caps to fight and fighting naked. You are confusing the viability of all levels of gear with the uselessness of gear.
And if Shadowclan is now fighting naked, that's something new and rather odd. They normally fight in ring/studded (dependent on rank) with orc helms and GM crafted weapons. Even on Siege Perilous equipment is required.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Analogy is total bullshit. Whats the risk running in gank group with crap gear, picking up single players ? There is ZERO risk at the organized gank squad side. Thats like going to playing poker without money for high stakes - you would be kicked from the table in a second.
You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker.
Full Loot PvP games aren't solo friendly, bring friends next time and you will make it more risky for the attackers as well. Your argument goes both ways.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
After playing a few full loot MMORPG games over the past few years (Currently playing darkfall again) i dont think i could really ever go back to a standard MMO and have fun...
The rush you get from the risk involved, but also the fact you could kill someone and take all his hard earned loot.. it makes for a better game and brings in another lvl of PVP where people think more about tactics in a fight than just rushing in an trying to kill..
Sure this type of game is really not for everyone as some people cant get their head around loosing gear they have made or collected..
It's not about solo play. Propoments of full loot always speak about how it is risk for both sides and ignore loopholes which alow to either completly avoid any risk or at least minimalizing it. And then even compare it with poker, i mean it's totaly laughable ... There is a reason why poker is played by milions of people for money and why full loot even though u dont loose real money is still only small niche of genre.
I was speaking of a time long ago, what you say about UO today is probably true, but that's not the same game now either.
I know there's a big difference between "naked" fighting which is normally only the trademark of ill funded indy titles and not practical in any well developed PVP model.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For me, it's all about solo play. There's a much higher risk that way, but so is the prize. My win/lose ratio is about 50/50 in any MMO, with the exception of EVE where I got my ass kicked in nearly every encounter.
{mod edit}
Every game has a loss.
Losing is part of any comptitive game.
You don't hear people raging over loosing thier Empire in Monopoly? Well if you do those people just don't handle competition very well.
There are plenty of games where you risk hours of inventment into make believe things that you don't hear people reacting to the way you do in mmo pvp games and it really makes no sense to me.
The only thing that gets me some what upset is cheating.
I agree.
I played Pve for year and years and it is way to boring and I can never go back any more.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker.
Full Loot PvP games aren't solo friendly, bring friends next time and you will make it more risky for the attackers as well. Your argument goes both ways.
It's still not comparable with Poker. Poker is an individual effort. Poker is not full loot, you actually decide how much to put at risk every encounter. With poker, you can opt out of every encounter by simply choosing to do so (with the loss of whta you've put up so far). Full loot (usually open world) PvP is nothing like any type of sport or anything else that would show up on ESPN.
Full Loot (usually open world) PvP has more in common with gang warfare than anything else. That's not to say it's bad, just that there's not a whole lot in the real world that it's like.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Full loot PVP is only for sadists and masochists.
You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I am a huge fan of hardcore pvp. I like being able to kill someone and take some items they have on hand or lose mine at the same time. I wish more games would offer a server for the hardcore crowd but it is a small crowd so it doesn't happen too often.
If you are not strong enough, you usually join a noob friendly clan so other noobs or protectors can cover your back.
As a newb in a full loot game like DF, i joined a zerg clan and we used to win most of the time. Now, i have an average character and im good. I lose more then i win because i feel strong enough to play with a small clan.
Thats how it is. You measure your level and you place yourself into a situation where you think you will get the most fun. I usually still have fun if i barely win or lose instead of zerg insta win. Some have fun by simply having 100% chance to win at any encounter.
Most of these games are sandbox, so you can chose if you either want it hard or easy. Your character level got nothing to do with that, its all politic.
At the end, its also your opinion. I wount play contra one without the cheat cuz i dont want to die 3 time and reset all over again. While for an old player, its the opposite.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
The only point that I can see is to be able to grief people, and ruin their play experience. Some people (like the Goonies) get their jollies from such things. I simply will not play such games. The closest I've come in years was EVE. But I never left high sec, and I stayed in SWA (an NPC corp that can't be war dec'ed). Mostly what I did was run L4 missions and mine a bit, so I could collect battleships. The most expensive of which always stayed in the hanger.
Some people will no doubt talk about "danger" or "challenge" or "risk vs reward". What that usually boils down to is pwning newbies, and or griefing. Neither of which are good for a games business model in the modern western market.
How very cliched of you.
IB4 moderation.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I personally haven't played full lot PvP, and I don't think I would. The frustration of losing everything would far outweigh any fun I might get in such a game. So, I would pass on that type of game.
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
There should be a type of PvP System where in PvP you have a certain rating depeding on K:D:A Ratios. The better your ratio, the more of a "rating" you have. Now when you kill a person with a HIGH rating, you get something like tokens or something along those lines of emblems. But they should make it so you can not trade or remove the emblems from your inventory. They are ALWAYS on you. When you kill someone you get X amount, and when you die you lose X amount.
The appeal of full loot pvp and/or destructible assets is not quite so obvious at first. Yeah it might be a rush to pvp knowing that you can lose all of your stuff... but that isn't the reason most people play these kinds of games. People play these kinds of games because the fact you can lose these things opens up so many different playstyles and creates a rich diverse world full of all types of players.
Eve online for example is a full loot/destructible item game. The fact that these items can be destroyed keeps the game moving for the players who enjoy crafting, market speculation, and anything market related in the game. Two things drive the economy in real life and in games. One being the destruction of assets/the need to replace things/updating to something new. The other is new accounts created/new alts created, and in the real world, births/population growth.
Take for example a game like world of warcraft. Prices of items that can't be destroyed can at best merely stabilize at a price barely above the cost to make it. These items are locked to the price it takes to create the item. (10 iron ingots costs x gold so 'super axe of death' will, after people start making them alot and the market stabilizes, will cost x, or barely over). The reason for this is, demand rises very incrementally due to new alts or accounts and people upgrading weapons. Whereas the capability to produce these items rises well above the demand. When this happens your economy is destroyed, and crafting is no longer a viable profession within the game, except just to do it because it's something you want to do. It cannot make you money, it cannot be anything more than a side distraction you do because you feel like it.
In a game with asset destruction and full loot you can have ALL KINDS of playstyles that simply aren't possible in any other kind of game. Sure it sucks when you die and lose your stuff, but then you go buy Joe Crafter's 'super axe of death' to replace it. This simple fact is what makes these kinds of games so great and so diverse. It creates a community of dependence on other players that you simply can't find in most modern mmos. This dependence on others, while it doesn't sound fun, creates complex and interesting interactions that themepark mmos simply cannot match. That's the only reason I keep playing mmos.
If you just want to kill the bad guy and respawn in a full suit of armor that's totally fine. There are tons of games for you. There is just a tradeoff with different kinds of games. If you want to have a robust economy, strong crafting system, and complex player interactions you simply MUST have some type of item decay or destruction. But for me personally, and if the subs for eve are any indication, asset destruction and loss are here to stay, and plenty of people enjoy it.
TLDR: Full loot/asset destruction games create opportunities for crafters, people who enjoy the economy, and make for more player interaction overall.