And I think this is where the whole "story-driven" MMO comes back to bite SWTOR in the butt. I've said before if I was going to play SWTOR, I'd be more likely to play it (even pay a sub to is) if it was 100% soloable. By making it a "story-driven" game they've developed a large following of gamers that expected the entire game to be more or less soloable, they even said they have a solo planet for end game right? But what these people have ignored is the fact that the game will have raids and the one thing raiders can't tolerate is someone else getting gear in any manner other than a raid, heck look at the thread on the "everyone gets rewarded for flash points" news.
Sadly, I don't see story being the reasons raiders stay in a game and I don't see those seeking story above all else staying in a game that doesn't reward their play style equally. BW is going to at some point have to choose between the two. I personally think they have more to lose by choosing raiders, but that's my opinion.
you are fooling yourself if you think these people think this way simply because BW said the game is story driven they would be making the same complaint even if they didn't say that. the problem is too many people lately want to play armchair dev and can never simply accept a product for what it is they feel like they have to go to war over any single feature they don't like.
How many people on this particular post have cried about raid content and being locked out of it and out of those people how many have said they care because they want to be a part of that story as opposed to being pissed because there is gear they won't be able to access without it.
These people know as well as all of us that this game is not going to make raid storylines an important part of your characters personal story and if so what's so hard about grouping up and getting it done to see the story that one time and moving on forgetting about the gear?
No this is just more "I want it my way and I want it now". and for a large percentage of posters here this is the stance they take on everything whether it is sandbox gameplay,innovation,rmt's and the list goes on and on people try to find some logic to why something they have no interest in has to be a problem for them not just something they don't do.
They can't make raid story lines or even flashpoints that important to your personal story since, you don't get to actually decide the outcomes, yes you get the points for the decisions you make, but the outcome is based on a dice roll, too many people will be pissed off if those stories have a huge impact on your character.
Of course everyone is posting about the way they want it. This isn't like someone making a decision like, should I fired X employees or try to cut costs in my business another way. A post on an MMO forum is not about other people it will always be about you. Hence the reason Raiders refuse to see the fairness in letting solo players get the same gear in different ways or why solo players see no point in raiding. All posts about an MMO are about the individuals wants, there is no real "greater good" in an MMO and never has or will be since it is a product that people individually pay for.
Nothing you said changes what I'm speaking in regards to, which is you giving the excuse that somehow BW is at fault for focusing on story and that is the reason people thought that the entire game would be able to be played solo. I also pointed out that it doesn't seem a correct assumption to make when a vast majority of the comments focus on gear not story.
the issue that had me reply to your post was not whether people had a right to voice an opinion about something they like/dislike and contrary to what you may believe I see lot's of posters on here who may let it be known they prefer something one way many don't try to make it a rallying point to destroy one feature or another.
Not every poster here makes five posts a month trying to tell people that rmt's are wrong or that raiders shouldn't be catered to or that people shouldn't play mmorpgs solo and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean we should excuse it or create reasoning out of thin air as to why they do it.
You are telling me that BW doesn't want all their single player RPG fanbois thinking this will be just like a huge, giant single player RPG with other people in it? Come, on up until recently their PR whole focus has been about story. I'm not saying the signs were not there earlier, but I am saying that BW want people to believe this game is something it is not - different. I'll give them story, but I'm not fooled into thinking they've revolutionized the MMO world with story, instead they've added it to the MMO world, there is a huge difference between designing a game with story as a foundation, which is the impression they've given and adding story to a game with an old foundation, which is what these solo-players are seeing right now.
I'm sorry but I don't hang on every word a dev says but it has been known for months that TOR would have raids (isn't that what the flashpoints are) as a matter of fact I recall hearing months ago that there would be an entire planet dedicated to end game soloing which would indicate that there is some type of content at end game dedicated to grouping.
as stated earlier you are simply trying to add one plus one and say it's eleven. we get it you don't agree with BW focusing on story but please don't try to connect dots that aren't on the same page.
I'm going to go again back to what started my response to your post BW is not to blame because people wanted to believe that there would not be raiding simply because it's what they wanted the game to be like and making excuses using some feature you aren't happy with doesn't make that true.
These people in the post aren't complaining about story they are complaining because they want equal access to gear how you dragged story into this is beyond me.
Of course they've talked about raids, but at the same time they talked about raids they announced a solo planet for end game. They want people to believe that this game is KoTOR 3, 4, 5 and 6 all in one big game, in fact Devs have even used that analogy. Now these people who saw what they wanted are finding out things that they don't want to see and complaining, big surprise.
How you cannot equate BW with single player story driven games is beyond me, have you not played a BW product before? Read half of the "Yay SWTOR" threads and all people talk about is how awesome the story is going to be, I haven't seen anyone say - "f*** yeah Raids!", and since we know that group stories can't have a huge impact on your characters personal story then it is not stretch to see where people have been hoping this wouldn't be a game that turned into huge group content at the end. Was it a realisitic hope, clearly not, but there is plenty of reason for them to have had those hopes and plenty of those reasons come from BW's own PR.
Maybe I'm using too many words what does this have to do with players whining about not having access to the best gear in game story being a problem wasn't inserted into the discussion until you came in like plastic man trying to stretch the topic to that fact.
As I've stated in lot's of posts if you want to complain that story is a bad design element do it where it is relevant but in this post crying about raids no one but you is critical of story the other folks just want access to the best gear the game has to offer without having to raid for it.
Maybe you need to read the op's post again and show me where he says his problem has anything to do with the game using story as a pillar of gameplay.
I have a question for people who complaign about this, what do you want the best gear for?
If you are only doing solo stuff, and you get the best of whatever you can get solo, then you are at that point more then equipped to do solo content.
Is it just the looks? The reason to have raid gear is because raids are much harder too tank/heal/dps, so you need that gear to be more effective in completing the raid.
More pvp gear improves your chances in pvp.
If you are just playing solo, you eventualy cap at what you can do, it's not going to get harder when you hit level cap and have done everything, why do you need the gear if not for cosmetic reasons? I understand that arguement, it can be called spurious, but it's a reason.
That's the way I look at it. I spend a lot of time soloing so I could care less what the raiders get. My bounty hunter will be doing the PVE content and running a business that caters to everyone, so there's my socializing. That for me will be enough. I've never been into the whole raid thing so I doubt I'll be spending much time with the operations. I could see myself doing the PVP for the PVP gear because to me fighting another player will always be more challenging than an NPC, so again, why should I care about what raiders get?
but you should not expect the same level of gear as someone who dedicates time to earn it.
Well, by that way of thinking, the casual solo player has probably spent more time getting to the point of wanting the best gear. The typical raider or by definition end-gamer thinks that thats is where a game begins and everything from 1-the cap is just fluff they'd rather skip and not be there to begin with. Thus they rush as quickly as possible just to start raiding, and in some MMO you can bypass the majority of the game in a few days to to a week, and start earning raid gear shortly there after.
So lets place the hard-core raider at end game and having at least one piece of flashy gear in about 36-48 played hrs.
Then you have the slower casual player like me that greatly enjoys exploring every corner of the world, talking to every NPC multiple times at different milestones in case something they say has changed, and seeeking out and completing every quest while reading all the corresponding text before moving on; as-well-as spending a great deal of time harvesting materials & crafting, and possibly even playing an alt back-to-back to raise four or more different crafts/harvests together. Then there are of course working on achievements and collections if the MMO supports them, and running the low end dungeons multiple times to get a set of whatever drops there to make the next zone easier.
So lets now tally up the casual's played time {using my Rift account as an example}:
Thats 107hrs I have played, I'm lvl 36, and have only just started my 4th zone of content, {defiant side ~ Freemarch > Stonefield > Scarlet Gorge > Scarwood Reach, and I still have a good deal of content yet to finish in those last 3 zones} and I still have at least 5 more zones of doing everything I mentioned above. And at my rate I'll be sure to have logged over 350+ hours before I ever get to and even consider end-game raiding.
So by your Logic, the casual player doesn't deserve the better gear because they havn't dedicated as much time...rofl! We casuals dedicate a great deal of time too, it just took us longer to get there instead of in one large clump in the period of a week.. Sure as all hell appears as though raiders expect better rewards because they have more time in shorter periods...thats just absurd!
If raiders want to skip all the other content and rush directly for end-game, I don't care, but you can't just horde all this best gear and new storyline content and claim its just for you because you got there faster. And if raiding is all you care about, while playing a mostly solo/small group MMO, then maybe its raiders that should quit playing instead!
so again, why should I care about what raiders get?
Then the reverse can be said, "why do the raiders care what the casuals have access too!" Your large group raids will still be there, but there will also be options for the solo/small group players.
That's the way I look at it. I spend a lot of time soloing so I could care less what the raiders get. so again, why should I care about what raiders get?
Well, that depends on the game now doesn't it?
Let's take my beloved Lineage 2. I ESPECIALLY cared for what raiders got.
why?
Because in Lineage 2 there was no "bind on equip". So raiders or clans that raided could make a decent amount of money selling their stuff.
Me as a 'non raider' (for the most part) could acquire decent gear because of what the raiders brought in. or, if the raid boss droped crafting mats or recipes then the crafters could create things and sell them to, er "me".
But again, it depends on whether or not the game has an actual economy or not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Personally if you don't like the fact that *solo* is getting screwed then don't play MMO's, you do understand the concept of MMO I hope? You play with a mass of people not Bots or Npc's so to speak like a typical console game....I like soloing but also like pvp and raiding hence why I do play MMO's....And who know's, Maybe later they will add where Soloers can get just as equal gear? Maybe don't throw all your eggs in one basket lol...The game isn't even out yet and they keep adding more and more as time goes on. So with that said, people will whine about every game that is out, people will continue to troll lol Just play what you feel is better for you Because honestly I don't see many MMO's out there that a soloer is as equal as a raider/pvper since these are *community games "MMO's"* not Console Games. I used to be the way you are, Not liking the fact that I had to group or *HAD* to raid with people just to be equal but it is what it is and as long as I like the game then I will join the rest of the community and do what they do as well and learn to enjoy it just the same.
It's really no different than the formula used in older MMO's, you earn the equivalent of what you put in. I'n EVE the person with the best Ship is the person who puts the most effort into earning isk. In SWG the best equipment was in possession of those who put the most effort into earning credits or those who spent the most time searching for DOT weapons. In themeparks the person with the best PVP gear is the person who spends the most time in PVP, the best raid gear those who put time into raiding etc... What's the difference?
If you wonder why things are the way they are, it's because these are multi-player games first and foremost. The easiest path to power is one in which you play with other's on a considerable basis.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
Originally posted by Khrymson Originally posted by azmundai
because it's been a ridiculously lackluster progression from the times of "forced grouping" to "instant gratification / entitlement gaming" sure you could level to 60 in vanilla wow, solo, but that was the inefficient path back then. At least 40-50% of the leveling content was group content back then. Also there were tons of quests to do at level 60 so endgame wasn't all about solo content. not to mention the games before that were actually "forced grouping" games and had very little real solo content. In fact at release there was probably more to do solo and way more to do in small group / solo at lvl 60. Since then the tsunami of casual gamers has buried all but raiding and dungeons. the reason these have survived likely has to do with development time vs the time it takes the average gamer to chew through it. The real crime imo is that there is virtually nothing left for those of use that prefer the group dynamic except raiding.
I hear what you're saying but like many others it sounds as if you feel as though we solo/small group players are demanding that raiding and group content are abolished, but we're not. We just want it possible to play through the end-game stories, and earn the gear that raiders have access too. All-the-while the apparently holy-grail of 8-16man raiding is still available for those that desire that type of gameplay.
This is no different than when in PvP and everyone complains that its not balanced and fair, and demand it be fixed. And like I posted a few pages back, it wouldn't be difficult for the devs to add an alternate solo/small group version of the raids so we too can experience that content. It can be just as similar as raiding with a weekly lockout and couldn't be completed in a single run, thus having to come back several days thereafter or not finishing it at all until you figure out the boss strategies to move on. And lastly all they have to do is put a weekly lock on it as they've been doing for 10/25/40 man raids already. Once a week you can run the solo/small group version, the 8-man or the 16-man based on your preferences. Nobody is left out, and the content is there for everyone to play as they choose. One week I may run into a larger group of players and want to do the 8-man version instead, and who know maybe that 16-man raider can't participate in their run that week or it gets cancelled, but now they would still have the option to go and play the solo version, and still earn some progress that week.
Its not entirely about the gear, but I sure would like to earn some of the better looking flashy gear without being forced into a type of gameplay I don't desire anymore. There is no reason that only raiders{the lowest % of players} should be allowed access to the best gear and content when the entire game was designed to be solo'd and cater to all types of players. And its just outright silly for the raider to keep saying that we play/worked the hardest thus we get better rewards ~ you all are just fooling yourselves because raiding is quite simple as you just follow a pattern with on-screen hints and tips. Its just everyone has to be paying attention to win!
thats not entirely how I feel. I am not sure how I feel about that to be honest. I have no problem with everyone being able to see the dungeons and the lore/story behind them. The gear I am not sure of. Ideally raiding wouldnt be about gear.
The main issue with gear that can be soloed that is equal to raid gear is that the raids become too easy in theory (unless the current trend of easy raiding is reversed) because any good raider will get the best gear they can outside of raids .. thus partially making raids pointless to them but especially making them even easier than they already have become.
back in vanilla this might have worked to an extent when raids were actually challenging outside of hardmodes.
the reality is I like a challenge and I like group content. hardmodes though require a level of hardcore that I dont care for myself. i have zero problem though with people that raid these places having better gear than me.
I think what wow has done by making 10 and 25s have the same gear is a good compromise. I would furthermore make smaller size raids so they dont take as long, and make more raids, spreading things out and helping to alleviate boredom.
I think wow has done a good job fixing most of this but people still arent happy. I realize we arent talking about wow as well .. and don't know the full scoop on swtor. with hardmodes the truly hardcore have their thing and the people that arent hardcore but still like to raid have theirs. If anything a 3rd (middle) difficulty would be interesting .. but probably takes the whole thing a little too far.
I realize this doesnt all make perfect sense. i dont have THE answer .. if I did i'd be in a conference room instead of on a forum.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
so again, why should I care about what raiders get?
Then the reverse can be said, "why do the raiders care what the casuals have access too!" Your large group raids will still be there, but there will also be options for the solo/small group players.
Solo and small group players have options. You can do that operation with eight people if that is your fancy. That's a small group in my book. Even the biggest MMO hermit shouldn't have a problem getting together with seven other players.
That's the way I look at it. I spend a lot of time soloing so I could care less what the raiders get. so again, why should I care about what raiders get?
Well, that depends on the game now doesn't it?
Let's take my beloved Lineage 2. I ESPECIALLY cared for what raiders got.
why?
Because in Lineage 2 there was no "bind on equip". So raiders or clans that raided could make a decent amount of money selling their stuff.
Me as a 'non raider' (for the most part) could acquire decent gear because of what the raiders brought in. or, if the raid boss droped crafting mats or recipes then the crafters could create things and sell them to, er "me".
But again, it depends on whether or not the game has an actual economy or not.
Hence why I rarely play MMORPGs. Without an actual economy crafting is pointless.
Again, nitpick what I said as much as you want -- keep on beating that dead horse:
1) Want solo-play? Let me introduce you to my friend "Final Fantasy" and many other RPG's (sans 11/14)
2) Don't want to raid? No problem! Go PvP or something.
3) Raid = Multiple people taking down a super-elite boss-type mob (i.e. working with others to achieve a common goal). Solo, this boss is too powerful for you. Increased difficulty = increased reward.
@Gormok - Listen to yourself for a sec "...you only have two options in which to progress your character at endgame."
Now I see by your sig that you have a lvl 50 Sorcerer named Darth Broga, or is all that completely ficticious?
Still, in any case, You are talking about having a character at "Endgame" and wanting to keep making "progress". The thing is you've presumably done all the quests to get your character maxed out. So what's left is you do RAIDs, or you PvP. And that allows you to keep getting newer gear, and/or the matts to make them... Now if you chose not to do the Raids, or the PvP, then you really won't need that gear.
All of that seems completely normal to me. Were you expecting them to supply you with an endless number of quests? Because if you were, then you were fooling yourself.
Also, about that sig, I'm guessing you are in beta (really trying hard to be nice to you!). Did they give you that toon already at level 45? I just can't believe you've soloed all the way to 50 and now you have no interest in doing some Raids, or at least a little PvP. It just doesn't make sense.
If I soloed a character that long I'd want to "strut my stuff"... I'd want to show other players how much of a bad ass I really am! And not by just standing around in one of the social hubs "showing off my Epic Gear".
That's the way I look at it. I spend a lot of time soloing so I could care less what the raiders get. so again, why should I care about what raiders get?
Well, that depends on the game now doesn't it?
Let's take my beloved Lineage 2. I ESPECIALLY cared for what raiders got.
why?
Because in Lineage 2 there was no "bind on equip". So raiders or clans that raided could make a decent amount of money selling their stuff.
Me as a 'non raider' (for the most part) could acquire decent gear because of what the raiders brought in. or, if the raid boss droped crafting mats or recipes then the crafters could create things and sell them to, er "me".
But again, it depends on whether or not the game has an actual economy or not.
Hence why I rarely play MMORPGs. Without an actual economy crafting is pointless.
The best economy is early SWG. I have never seen another one since, not even in WoW.
That said, an economy that is fully integrated into the gameplay is enough to keep crafting going. WoW has one such economy, largely because of the endless progression or grinds, depending on how you look at it. If you are into that kind of game, crafting is meaningful and useful.
I want to start my post by saying I'm primarily a Solo player, and always have been a solo player.
Now, the fact that an MMORPG is catering towards group play should not come as a shock to anyone. They are Multiplayer Online games afterall. But, in the event that one of these developers decides they do want to cater to groups I believe they should provide players with a means to easily group up with people so that they dont spend most of their time waiting around.
This seems to be most commonly achieved by an LFG system but GW2 also has the system where you can just run up and help someone and all parties will recieve full credit for the kill.
To whine about an MMO "shafting" the solo player is a bit immature in my opinion. If you want to play solo either go play a single player game or go back to other solo friendly mmos such as WoW or Rift. (Among others).
I think your overlooking the fact that as a solo pvper you could have gear almost as good as the operations gear. I plan to pvp hardcore so I can go into operations decked out
I have no issue at all with the best gear being in a raid. I only take issue ( I do not know if this is the case in TOR) when primary plot points resolve in a raid. I would rather that was solo or party size. Other than that...loot is loot, and it all gets outdated eventually.
I think your overlooking the fact that as a solo pvper you could have gear almost as good as the operations gear. I plan to pvp hardcore so I can go into operations decked out
I am pretty much done with raids (scheduling and drama). PvP is where I will be.
The solution is to learn to play with other players. Tired of hearing about how soloers get the shaft when almost 90% of the mmos out there are geared towards solo play. You can't have your cake and eat it to all the time.
Well first off let me say; I don't normally agree with a lot of the ToR bashers on these forums, but in this regard to WoW clone and BW not changing things up. It looks like the trolls and ToR bashers where right, BW are following in the exact same footsteps as WoW and Rift. Basically if you want good gear in ToR it's raid or pvp,even crafting good gear means you have to raid for the mats. So it looks like the solo players gets it up the rear once again, you only have two options in which to progress your character at endgame. PvP or raid, I like raiding and I like pvp but I don't like for that to be the only option as far as progression goes. I have been doing that same old song and dance for the last ten years and quiet frankly it loses it's appeal very quickly, the whole solo planet thing is probably nothing but a daily quest grind as is seen in WoW and Rift. Well it looks like ToR might be off the table for me, seeing as to how I am pretty much tired and burnt out on the whole raid and pvp gear grind. Here are some links and quotes for those that are interested.
So.. You want to get free gear.. Sounds like it'd be a way for raiders to get phat loot while spending almost no time then they can go do the raids and faceroll through them. Now it's starting to sound like WoW.
It also sounds like you log into MMOs and, while doing your own thing in Elwynn Forest, someone steals a boar kill from you. To which you scream at your monitor "Why the F**K are all these people here?"
i agree victor. I love to play with just my gf alot. That said i love to do dungeons and raids also.
Im sorry u cant give a person not willing to do the operations the same gear as those that run operations. There has to be an incentive for running operations and raids other then just i got to do this content.
Why shouldnt people doing the more complex and difficult content have better gear this from a wow player thats maybe seen 4 of the raids in wow if that.
I ran naxx in lk , politics kept me out of ulduar, i ran icc alot, ive done kara, and ive done trial of champins raid. althogh never got final boss in icc or trail of champions. and i had no issue with raiders havign better gear then me
i did have an issue with those same people saying they were better players. They had a better guild hat would run with them then i did as i tended to stick to freind type guilds which didnt have alot of people other then the one guild where politics kept me out of ulduar.
I also have an issue with people telling u to pug the lower raid to get to a newer one when in order to pug they want u to have the gear from the newer raid which never made any sense to me.
That said people who do harder content should have better gear. i have no issue with that. I tend to lvoe to roll alts and stuff
While i also do heroics and raid when i could i didnt mind others having better gear then me if u care that much its kinda ridiculous.
Its not even real its a game world . U can get the next highest level gear from crafting and im betting if players craft top level gear with operation mats that it wont be bop gear so they can sell it on ah and u can get some top gear or mods that way.
idk call me old fashion but i enjoy massively multi-player online role playing games, not massively single player online role playing games. I understand the whole solo thing i just don't get it. why play a game that involves groups and team work and then want to just do everything urself? where's the fun in that, you might as well just be playing a console game with online features.
i agree victor. I love to play with just my gf alot. That said i love to do dungeons and raids also.
Im sorry u cant give a person not willing to do the operations the same gear as those that run operations. There has to be an incentive for running operations and raids other then just i got to do this content.
Why shouldnt people doing the more complex and difficult content have better gear this from a wow player thats maybe seen 4 of the raids in wow if that.
Thousand times repeated lie will not become truth. It's a lie that just becouse you do raid dungeons you do harder content. For example i dont have to go that far - Rift with prenerfed T2 5 man dungeons, I knew quite a few ppl who raided and still were not able to do some of the hardest ones 5 mans.
Comments
Maybe I'm using too many words what does this have to do with players whining about not having access to the best gear in game story being a problem wasn't inserted into the discussion until you came in like plastic man trying to stretch the topic to that fact.
As I've stated in lot's of posts if you want to complain that story is a bad design element do it where it is relevant but in this post crying about raids no one but you is critical of story the other folks just want access to the best gear the game has to offer without having to raid for it.
Maybe you need to read the op's post again and show me where he says his problem has anything to do with the game using story as a pillar of gameplay.
That's the way I look at it. I spend a lot of time soloing so I could care less what the raiders get. My bounty hunter will be doing the PVE content and running a business that caters to everyone, so there's my socializing. That for me will be enough. I've never been into the whole raid thing so I doubt I'll be spending much time with the operations. I could see myself doing the PVP for the PVP gear because to me fighting another player will always be more challenging than an NPC, so again, why should I care about what raiders get?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Well, by that way of thinking, the casual solo player has probably spent more time getting to the point of wanting the best gear. The typical raider or by definition end-gamer thinks that thats is where a game begins and everything from 1-the cap is just fluff they'd rather skip and not be there to begin with. Thus they rush as quickly as possible just to start raiding, and in some MMO you can bypass the majority of the game in a few days to to a week, and start earning raid gear shortly there after.
So lets place the hard-core raider at end game and having at least one piece of flashy gear in about 36-48 played hrs.
Then you have the slower casual player like me that greatly enjoys exploring every corner of the world, talking to every NPC multiple times at different milestones in case something they say has changed, and seeeking out and completing every quest while reading all the corresponding text before moving on; as-well-as spending a great deal of time harvesting materials & crafting, and possibly even playing an alt back-to-back to raise four or more different crafts/harvests together. Then there are of course working on achievements and collections if the MMO supports them, and running the low end dungeons multiple times to get a set of whatever drops there to make the next zone easier.
So lets now tally up the casual's played time {using my Rift account as an example}:
Thats 107hrs I have played, I'm lvl 36, and have only just started my 4th zone of content, {defiant side ~ Freemarch > Stonefield > Scarlet Gorge > Scarwood Reach, and I still have a good deal of content yet to finish in those last 3 zones} and I still have at least 5 more zones of doing everything I mentioned above. And at my rate I'll be sure to have logged over 350+ hours before I ever get to and even consider end-game raiding.
So by your Logic, the casual player doesn't deserve the better gear because they havn't dedicated as much time...rofl! We casuals dedicate a great deal of time too, it just took us longer to get there instead of in one large clump in the period of a week.. Sure as all hell appears as though raiders expect better rewards because they have more time in shorter periods...thats just absurd!
If raiders want to skip all the other content and rush directly for end-game, I don't care, but you can't just horde all this best gear and new storyline content and claim its just for you because you got there faster. And if raiding is all you care about, while playing a mostly solo/small group MMO, then maybe its raiders that should quit playing instead!
Then the reverse can be said, "why do the raiders care what the casuals have access too!" Your large group raids will still be there, but there will also be options for the solo/small group players.
Well, that depends on the game now doesn't it?
Let's take my beloved Lineage 2. I ESPECIALLY cared for what raiders got.
why?
Because in Lineage 2 there was no "bind on equip". So raiders or clans that raided could make a decent amount of money selling their stuff.
Me as a 'non raider' (for the most part) could acquire decent gear because of what the raiders brought in. or, if the raid boss droped crafting mats or recipes then the crafters could create things and sell them to, er "me".
But again, it depends on whether or not the game has an actual economy or not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Personally if you don't like the fact that *solo* is getting screwed then don't play MMO's, you do understand the concept of MMO I hope? You play with a mass of people not Bots or Npc's so to speak like a typical console game....I like soloing but also like pvp and raiding hence why I do play MMO's....And who know's, Maybe later they will add where Soloers can get just as equal gear? Maybe don't throw all your eggs in one basket lol...The game isn't even out yet and they keep adding more and more as time goes on. So with that said, people will whine about every game that is out, people will continue to troll lol Just play what you feel is better for you Because honestly I don't see many MMO's out there that a soloer is as equal as a raider/pvper since these are *community games "MMO's"* not Console Games. I used to be the way you are, Not liking the fact that I had to group or *HAD* to raid with people just to be equal but it is what it is and as long as I like the game then I will join the rest of the community and do what they do as well and learn to enjoy it just the same.
It's really no different than the formula used in older MMO's, you earn the equivalent of what you put in. I'n EVE the person with the best Ship is the person who puts the most effort into earning isk. In SWG the best equipment was in possession of those who put the most effort into earning credits or those who spent the most time searching for DOT weapons. In themeparks the person with the best PVP gear is the person who spends the most time in PVP, the best raid gear those who put time into raiding etc... What's the difference?
If you wonder why things are the way they are, it's because these are multi-player games first and foremost. The easiest path to power is one in which you play with other's on a considerable basis.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
I hear what you're saying but like many others it sounds as if you feel as though we solo/small group players are demanding that raiding and group content are abolished, but we're not. We just want it possible to play through the end-game stories, and earn the gear that raiders have access too. All-the-while the apparently holy-grail of 8-16man raiding is still available for those that desire that type of gameplay.
This is no different than when in PvP and everyone complains that its not balanced and fair, and demand it be fixed. And like I posted a few pages back, it wouldn't be difficult for the devs to add an alternate solo/small group version of the raids so we too can experience that content. It can be just as similar as raiding with a weekly lockout and couldn't be completed in a single run, thus having to come back several days thereafter or not finishing it at all until you figure out the boss strategies to move on.
And lastly all they have to do is put a weekly lock on it as they've been doing for 10/25/40 man raids already. Once a week you can run the solo/small group version, the 8-man or the 16-man based on your preferences. Nobody is left out, and the content is there for everyone to play as they choose. One week I may run into a larger group of players and want to do the 8-man version instead, and who know maybe that 16-man raider can't participate in their run that week or it gets cancelled, but now they would still have the option to go and play the solo version, and still earn some progress that week.
Its not entirely about the gear, but I sure would like to earn some of the better looking flashy gear without being forced into a type of gameplay I don't desire anymore. There is no reason that only raiders{the lowest % of players} should be allowed access to the best gear and content when the entire game was designed to be solo'd and cater to all types of players. And its just outright silly for the raider to keep saying that we play/worked the hardest thus we get better rewards ~ you all are just fooling yourselves because raiding is quite simple as you just follow a pattern with on-screen hints and tips. Its just everyone has to be paying attention to win!
thats not entirely how I feel. I am not sure how I feel about that to be honest. I have no problem with everyone being able to see the dungeons and the lore/story behind them. The gear I am not sure of. Ideally raiding wouldnt be about gear.
The main issue with gear that can be soloed that is equal to raid gear is that the raids become too easy in theory (unless the current trend of easy raiding is reversed) because any good raider will get the best gear they can outside of raids .. thus partially making raids pointless to them but especially making them even easier than they already have become.
back in vanilla this might have worked to an extent when raids were actually challenging outside of hardmodes.
the reality is I like a challenge and I like group content. hardmodes though require a level of hardcore that I dont care for myself. i have zero problem though with people that raid these places having better gear than me.
I think what wow has done by making 10 and 25s have the same gear is a good compromise. I would furthermore make smaller size raids so they dont take as long, and make more raids, spreading things out and helping to alleviate boredom.
I think wow has done a good job fixing most of this but people still arent happy. I realize we arent talking about wow as well .. and don't know the full scoop on swtor. with hardmodes the truly hardcore have their thing and the people that arent hardcore but still like to raid have theirs. If anything a 3rd (middle) difficulty would be interesting .. but probably takes the whole thing a little too far.
I realize this doesnt all make perfect sense. i dont have THE answer .. if I did i'd be in a conference room instead of on a forum.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Hence why I rarely play MMORPGs. Without an actual economy crafting is pointless.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Again, nitpick what I said as much as you want -- keep on beating that dead horse:
1) Want solo-play? Let me introduce you to my friend "Final Fantasy" and many other RPG's (sans 11/14)
2) Don't want to raid? No problem! Go PvP or something.
3) Raid = Multiple people taking down a super-elite boss-type mob (i.e. working with others to achieve a common goal). Solo, this boss is too powerful for you. Increased difficulty = increased reward.
Why is this so hard for some to understand?
@Gormok - Listen to yourself for a sec "...you only have two options in which to progress your character at endgame."
Now I see by your sig that you have a lvl 50 Sorcerer named Darth Broga, or is all that completely ficticious?
Still, in any case, You are talking about having a character at "Endgame" and wanting to keep making "progress". The thing is you've presumably done all the quests to get your character maxed out. So what's left is you do RAIDs, or you PvP. And that allows you to keep getting newer gear, and/or the matts to make them... Now if you chose not to do the Raids, or the PvP, then you really won't need that gear.
All of that seems completely normal to me. Were you expecting them to supply you with an endless number of quests? Because if you were, then you were fooling yourself.
Also, about that sig, I'm guessing you are in beta (really trying hard to be nice to you!). Did they give you that toon already at level 45? I just can't believe you've soloed all the way to 50 and now you have no interest in doing some Raids, or at least a little PvP. It just doesn't make sense.
If I soloed a character that long I'd want to "strut my stuff"... I'd want to show other players how much of a bad ass I really am! And not by just standing around in one of the social hubs "showing off my Epic Gear".
All I've got to say is "Get Real or Go Away!"
The best economy is early SWG. I have never seen another one since, not even in WoW.
That said, an economy that is fully integrated into the gameplay is enough to keep crafting going. WoW has one such economy, largely because of the endless progression or grinds, depending on how you look at it. If you are into that kind of game, crafting is meaningful and useful.
For the record, I left WoW long ago.
So basically you think its not fair if someone else gets better stuff than you. You sound like my little brother when he was 8.
hence the "mmo" in "mmorpg"
I want to start my post by saying I'm primarily a Solo player, and always have been a solo player.
Now, the fact that an MMORPG is catering towards group play should not come as a shock to anyone. They are Multiplayer Online games afterall. But, in the event that one of these developers decides they do want to cater to groups I believe they should provide players with a means to easily group up with people so that they dont spend most of their time waiting around.
This seems to be most commonly achieved by an LFG system but GW2 also has the system where you can just run up and help someone and all parties will recieve full credit for the kill.
To whine about an MMO "shafting" the solo player is a bit immature in my opinion. If you want to play solo either go play a single player game or go back to other solo friendly mmos such as WoW or Rift. (Among others).
I think your overlooking the fact that as a solo pvper you could have gear almost as good as the operations gear. I plan to pvp hardcore so I can go into operations decked out
I have no issue at all with the best gear being in a raid. I only take issue ( I do not know if this is the case in TOR) when primary plot points resolve in a raid. I would rather that was solo or party size. Other than that...loot is loot, and it all gets outdated eventually.
I am pretty much done with raids (scheduling and drama). PvP is where I will be.
The solution is to learn to play with other players. Tired of hearing about how soloers get the shaft when almost 90% of the mmos out there are geared towards solo play. You can't have your cake and eat it to all the time.
So.. You want to get free gear.. Sounds like it'd be a way for raiders to get phat loot while spending almost no time then they can go do the raids and faceroll through them. Now it's starting to sound like WoW.
It also sounds like you log into MMOs and, while doing your own thing in Elwynn Forest, someone steals a boar kill from you. To which you scream at your monitor "Why the F**K are all these people here?"
i agree victor. I love to play with just my gf alot. That said i love to do dungeons and raids also.
Im sorry u cant give a person not willing to do the operations the same gear as those that run operations. There has to be an incentive for running operations and raids other then just i got to do this content.
Why shouldnt people doing the more complex and difficult content have better gear this from a wow player thats maybe seen 4 of the raids in wow if that.
I ran naxx in lk , politics kept me out of ulduar, i ran icc alot, ive done kara, and ive done trial of champins raid. althogh never got final boss in icc or trail of champions. and i had no issue with raiders havign better gear then me
i did have an issue with those same people saying they were better players. They had a better guild hat would run with them then i did as i tended to stick to freind type guilds which didnt have alot of people other then the one guild where politics kept me out of ulduar.
I also have an issue with people telling u to pug the lower raid to get to a newer one when in order to pug they want u to have the gear from the newer raid which never made any sense to me.
That said people who do harder content should have better gear. i have no issue with that. I tend to lvoe to roll alts and stuff
While i also do heroics and raid when i could i didnt mind others having better gear then me if u care that much its kinda ridiculous.
Its not even real its a game world . U can get the next highest level gear from crafting and im betting if players craft top level gear with operation mats that it wont be bop gear so they can sell it on ah and u can get some top gear or mods that way.
tl;dr why?
idk call me old fashion but i enjoy massively multi-player online role playing games, not massively single player online role playing games. I understand the whole solo thing i just don't get it. why play a game that involves groups and team work and then want to just do everything urself? where's the fun in that, you might as well just be playing a console game with online features.
Please tell me of an MMO that gives the best gear if you solo content? Keep waiting for that MMO bro.
Thousand times repeated lie will not become truth. It's a lie that just becouse you do raid dungeons you do harder content. For example i dont have to go that far - Rift with prenerfed T2 5 man dungeons, I knew quite a few ppl who raided and still were not able to do some of the hardest ones 5 mans.