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TSW has classes now?
Mykell
Member UncommonPosts: 780
So people will be assigned to be tanks. dps or healer according to abstract analysis? I thought TSW was supposed to be classless?
For both manners of PvP, Funcom announced that players would be analyzed and assigned a role upon entering a battlefield. Depending on the role assigned to a player, his outfit will be changed to role-specific armor. This gives each player a distinctive look based on his combat role, thereby allowing players to be immediately identified. In this way, allies know which players to protect and which enemies to focus on.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/31/pax-2011-funcom-discusses-tsws-pvp-arg-and-more/1#c34723752
Comments
You're confusing roles with classes. There are no classes. There are hundreds of skills that fit multiple roles. Choose whatever you want. You have 7 active and 7 passive that shape what type of role you play. You can change them up, mix n match, whatever you want.
In PvP, your uniform will show based on what role you are closer to, depending on your current set of skills and items.
If you are deep in damage increasing powers, or focused on this you'll show the uniform that marks the damage dealers, if you are big on tanking capabilities your uniform will be the one that reflects it.
If you use a very hybrid build the system will assign the uniform (again, for PvP) based on the role that you have more skills of, even if it's just one more for DD than the rest.
Hybrid builds will be the harder to "read" as their uniform won't say if you are BIG on tanking or is it just that you have one more skill point in that that on anything else.
No one is assigned anything but people will choose builds based on the roles/jobs needed for the specific task at hand. One minute they could be performing the job of a healer then an hour later be off doing something else as the tank.
They are trying to make out like it is classless - but by the sounds of it the underlying mechanics just gloss over the fact you obviously need a class to play. They may have done away with 'picking' your class, but by the sounds of it what skills you chose will determine your class. I doubt a person heavily spec'd for any sort of healing role will end up playing a tank.
Basically it's like an FPS game they are just basing class on other characteristics. You choose a sniper rifle to play with in FPS multiplayer and your role is a sniper, your class is ranged dps. Whether you decide to play like a sniper is up to you, but overall you don't pick a sniper rifle to play with if you want to melee people to death. They are assuming the same thing if your skills point to a healer you are a healer etc.
In other words from what I can make out we have just dropped the word class, but it's there in the background. Having a uniform that signals what you are, certainly to me seems like classes are there. If it's classless why do you need a uniform to let people know what role they are playing? If there are no classes it shouldn't matter.
let's clarifie some thing:
game DO NOT HAVE SPECIFIC CLASES aka when u start u'r caracter u will not ask what u will want to be war, pala, mage ... & after that in game to have a specific tree, NO ... ze only think what u need to take is FACTION (Templar, Dragon, Iluminati) with what u want to play, after that all skill, all abilitie u can have basicaly all & agen one litle BUT u will be that one who will decide what specific skill u want to ...
http://tsw.mmoz.pl/tsw-skillwheel.html this will show u a fraction at how will be u'r skill tree
ok now a important think what ALL need to undestend noo mater of what skill u want to take when will came moment to enter in a dungeon, in a specific event were it require a PARTY u will need to take a roll like some1 will need to be tank, some1 dps & some1 healer!!! this mecanic they can't change it, they can't remove coz is basic of basic of all mmo game noo mater what they are, by who they maide or create ...
soo u want to enter in a dungeon u will need to chouse a ROLE, u enter in a RAID agen u will need to choise a role ... u enter in a PVP / ARENA agen u will need to choise a ROLE ... a simple fact what is normal for eny1 who have some normal IQ
for more i udvice to read more http://www.darkdemonscrygaia.com/index.php
I'm at a loss regarding what you're criticising.
Is it for issuing a label to players dependent on choice of emphasis, or is it the premise there will be enough choice of emphasis to merit a label?
By "classless" were you anticipating a model wherein everyone would be equal parts tank/healer/dps/whatever at all times, regardless of skill and/or equipment selection?
No classes doesn't mean no classes, it means no pre-defined classes is all I am hearing. So you don't decide at the beginning to be a Warrior, Druid or whatever which in turn means you are tank, healer etc. Your skills chosen throughout the game will determine your class and just because you can create hybrid classes doesn't mean the game is 'classless'.
The role you chose to play might not matter, so you could be a healer and decide not to heal anybody. But just the fact you are having to pick either equipment or skills mean classes exist. There might be a billion and one different combinations and no pre-defined classes, but classes exist. I don't see how it is classless, if I make the same skill choices as you I will have the same class.
Shrug. I don't know how long you've been playing MMO's, but as far as I recall, this has been the case with all MMO's that didn't put you in fixed classes in the first place, but where you could pick your selection of skills.
No classes means that you aren't set into a fixed class like with most MMO's, but just like with other classless MMO's from the past, this doesn't mean that roles don't exist in team combat or that core mechanics, like dps or healing or crowd control or buff/debuff or tanking and such suddenly don't exist anymore.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't think you are getting it. Your skill choices as you level/progress though the game are not permanent, they are fluid and can be changed to fit what you need for any part of the game. You could spend most of your time as a bit of everything, but you're not going to get through a difficult encounter in a dungeon with everyone being jack of all trades but master of none, you'll change your skill loadout to fit what is needed for the tactics at that particular time. Also, the game is not equipment based.
It's coming across as though you are criticising it for the sake of it. I really don't see what there is to complain about the freedom they are giving.
its a concept that some find hard to understand, so many games have 'classes' that a game without classes, must somehow have them in some form or other.. .. but.. much like Eve Online.. TSW doesnt have classes, or levels.. anybody who played SWG before it had levels will probably understand the concept that TSW is using.. though those who's only real experience is games like WoW etc.. might have a hard time understanding it.. and it does have progression, another misleading line of thinking is that in order to have character/player progression, there must be levels, personally i've always considered levels as being a lazy game mechanic, and often lazy replacement for real game content... if it wasnt for the item shop in TSW, it would have been my ideal game.. .. bit of a sod really ..
it's a vanity item shop... VANITY... what's the problem? Welcome to 2012, the worlds ending.
"Sometimes people say stuff they don''t mean, but more often then that they don''t say things they do mean"
if the only things in the cash shop are vanity items, then thats fair enough.. if at release thats the case i will get the game.. if however, as has been indicated, the items in the shop are none-vanity items, then i'll pass.. as i suspect will a great many players who might otherwise have chosen this game. Personally i'd rather they didnt have a cash shop of any kind.. but .. these days they do seem to be creeping into games more and more.. it might be a sign of the times, but its not a welcome one.
With Skyrim they have taken the decision to remove traditional classes. How you decide to play ultimately dictates your class. You can change your class by changing the way you play. But they haven't said the game is 'classless' because that would be a lie. The way your class is defined is based on how you play.
Classless I would imagine means no classes or no concept of class. But now we seem to be saying classless means not being in a fixed class - so classless isn't classless, it just means having classes but not having any fixed classes and also having the ability to change classes. Yeah right - I see goal posts moving.
So having no levels means what exactly? Having levels but they are invisible to the user, having levels but they are called something else, having a progression system of some sort (progression sounds like level to me). I am beginning to think classless/leveless = full of crap.
thats why i said its a hard concept to understand if you don't have experience of the game type.. classless means just that.. no classes of any kind.. instead you have skills, or abilities even, i think they said there was over 500 of them... its an ideal model to base pvp combat on really, as you don't have differentiation due to levels etc.. balancing isnt an issue because there are no classes to balance.. Eve players will probably find this easier to cope with initially i think, as the whole 'class mentality' thing doesnt happen in Eve either.. and for those too, who don't think of levelling up as being the whole point of a game..
Still don't see how it is classless. You can by your skill selection define a class, just because there are no pre-defined classes at the start doesn't make any difference. I am sure if everybody that wants to adopt a traditional role finds a particular talent/skill useful it won't be long before everybody who plays that role is adopting the same thing.
The only way I can see it being classless is if you have individual tailored experience. Just because you have the power of choice with abilities/skills I don't see you have removed class. You may have multiple tiers, sub classes, but if I can choose the same options as you I can play as the same class.
Because it still is classless, someone may chose to gear more towards tanking.
And yes, for practical reasons people DO chose to have a set person to tank or heal.
But what does level'less mean? simple actually, pretty much means you can run instance X with someone who has been building their char in 1 way or another for months or someone who just created it 5 minutes ago. Logics do suggest the longer played characters are probebly better geared.
Sounds to me you are just argueing for the sake of argueing.
I think that literally everyone except maybe a handful with their own definition of 'classless' or 'no classes' understands that when the term 'no classes' is used, that it means like how it has been used in MMO's right from the beginning of the MMO genre 10-15 years ago: and that is that you won't have to select a class when you create a character, that will determine your character progression path like in most MMO's, but that you will be able to select your own skills and determine your own character progression path like it's possible in the couple of classless existing MMO's.
Really, I'm not exaggerating when I say that the vast majority of (experienced) MMO gamers understands that concept, as it has been used for years, classes and classless in MMO's
This.
I'm willing to bet that if it wasn't about TSW and a game that's being made by FC, this argument wouldn't even be made, as said, it's arguing for the sake of arguing.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What you describe are called builds, your reasoning is that if people expect you to select certain skills for certain roles the game still has classes?
That's pure bollocks and you know it, you also try to shoehorn having a clearly defined role based on your skill selection as having a class, which is also pretty out there. A class by definition is a preset set of abilities with little to no choice in how it progresses through the ability set.
Yeah, this is why I am hopeful. That concept alone has got nearly all my pre-cu buddies interested since we aren't defined by having to reroll which can be a major burden. When Rift first announced its system I thought it would of been similiar(pick any of the three classes you want, but alas I just misunderstood the system) not sure how GW2 will be in regards but that and this game look to be following the same sort of anyone can be anything at anytime roll which should be perfect for people looking for older MMO classless systems.
let gief some exemple about what mean's class:
WoW exemple:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/
subclase/role are difine by combination done in they'r tree(tank, offtank, dps, healer)
AoC exemple:
http://www.ageofconan.com/world/classes/
subclase/role are difine by combination done in they'r tree(tank, offtank, dps, healer)
Global Agenda exemple:
Assault, Robotics, Medic, Recon
http://www.globalagendagame.com/TheGame_Classes_Assault.html
OK now back to The Secreat World idea about clases aka FC they want to gief u a game were main forte point of game to be FREEDOM aka u will be that one who will chouse to build u'r class (basicaly can be lot's combination) & to undestend more clear visit this link were u will see how will be tree of u'r caracter:
http://tsw.mmoz.pl/tsw-skillwheel.html
were u will invest is u'r choise, how many point agen is u'r choise, how u will like to play agen is u'r choise BUT when it came dungeon, raid, party, pvp, arena ENYONE of us we will need to undestend we need to have a ROLE what is define by our skill point combination aka TANK, DPS, HEALER
in same time i udvice i yell to eny1 to visit this place:
http://www.darkdemonscrygaia.com/showthread.php?t=17620
for laizy one i will set a direct link about how work game mecanic
a dungeon experience reveal:
The Secret World - Dungeon Demo Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZPS1...eature=related
The Secret World - Dungeon Demo Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YB2V...eature=related
how u will make mision:
GDC 2011 - The Secret World footage Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ0II...eature=related
how will lock se skill tree:
GDC 2011 - The Secret World footage Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVXMw...eature=related
Exactly. I was thinking this reminds me of UO and UO was most definitely classless. But that didn't mean that you didn't have a role to fulfill in dungeons. I don't understand what the issue is here and why some people can't see that this is a traditionally classless game. /shrug
I'm thinking some folks just want to redefine the traditionally accepted meaning of the word classless so that they can fish for angry fanboi comments or something. Hmm? Just a hunch I have and only my opinion, but....yeah.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, my probability math may be a bit rusty...
TSW has 500 skills. I'm assuming there will be an even split of 250 active and 250 passive skills.
That would give 250! / ( 7! * (250-7)! ) unique ways to pick your active skills, or 1.112624122×10¹³. That's 10 trillion (or billion if you're european) unique ways to combine just the active skills. Of course you have the same amount of ways to combine passive skills, so the total amount of builds is 10 trillion squared which is 10 septillion builds (or quadrillion if you're european). To visualize, 1 septillion = 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
Of course I realize that we will be discarding most of these as useless at a glance, and that builds that are only one or two skills apart might be practically identical depending on synergies, but still. Talking about classes is just a convenient way to guide people into choosing appropriate skills for a role. If your current role in a group is to tank, then you pick amongst skills that are conveniently labeled tank skills. You are able to fulfil your role, and since the majority of your skills now have a "tank" label, the game can give visual aids for others as to what role you are expected to fulfil.
Yes, you can give players with a certain amont of skills in this or that skillset names and call the different groups of combinations classes, but that's just semantics. If you ignore logic and guidelines you have a septillion possible builds waiting for you, and even if you group those into traditional and non-traditional MMO classes, the number of combinations in each is astronomical.
I guess if you want to think in terms of classes, they will be the flavor of the month builds for the most common roles, but the game does not define these for you. Players do, so I don't think the term class is appropriate. Just convenient when comparing to other MMOs.
glad to hear this. OP had me concerned for a moment there
i do agree that it is a way to cut down on creative content by making leveling become the content. i also was hoping for more flexibility in Rift, but cannot say that i didnt grasp their concept originally. i suppose my CBT experience also gave me the impression that it was going to play more like GW2 classes, rather than free swap between WoW style class trees. in that GW2 classes will not be skill based, ie., SWG or TSW, but rather not role based. which imho is certainly an improvement over the current style of gameplay.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Heh. What you're saying is that someone might be trolling or trollbaiting without you actually accusing or using the words 'troll' or 'trolling'. That's a neat way of wording things
And yep, classless MMO's has been a part of the genre since UO.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."