Not true since even before the eye of terror campaign there is at least 1 small 3 rd agenda army in every campaign even the city fight stuff. It's not breaking ip, and I don't mean to sound like that is my opinion. I'm saying that by and large the game lore is more than 2 sided. That is to say yes it is 2 sided sometimes but not all the time and in the large scope it's definitely not 2 sided.
More often than not, when multiple races are involved in a conflict, there is cooperation rather than free-for-all. Most fights are typically between two armies and are de-facto 2 sided, while others that involve 3 or more armies are split between 2 common goals and thus end up a 2 sided affair anyway. The only times there are real 3 sided battles are when each side has different end goals. Considering goals in the grand scheme of things typically boil down to saving something or destroying it, it's not often there's a 3rd (much less 4th) contender in the conflict.
IMO I personally dont believe in the 2 faction scenario in warhammer games. While some races may have temporary alliances as the Space marines and Eldar at times never multiple races "ganging up" for a common cause.
"Temporary" compared to a war that has gone on for at least 12,000 years can be a pretty long time. Certainly long enough to be encompased by an MMO.
I just stated that I dont believe 40k is 2 sided thing and that I hope the game is changed to at least 3 sides since more is usually the case. Michael trolled me and was I was up for the challenge, I called his bluff on his rules of "blackshirts" lol and his opinion was not valid.
Well done, i agree with all your posts and Michael tried to railroad me his non listening agenda on previous posts
personally as a fan of the GW 40k universe they could have some awesome pvp in a RPGFPS like planetside 2 with the player being thrown into the fire as his own avatar rather than one of the devs making
they could do amazing things with the universe and fan base they have, 3 races! hell they should have all races at the moment it is WoW with guns which will get tired really quickly (if anyone wants to throw in that WoW has the most gamers, they will certainly not all jump ship to another game after their time investment)
it needs to be new and fresh, 2 races is linear and the whole 'same ole faces' enemy gets boring
someone said axis vs allies + the others rome vs rest of the world , i think you will find there was atleast 7 dominant power struggles going on there during that period of history as for good vs bad there are so many shades of grey nothing is black and white, if they made it territory based and temporary cease fires could be traded between races you have the setting of some epic game play
Are you guys really arguing about whether or not coordination between races happens? I know next to nothing about the fluff and can tell you with absolute finality that they do in fact happen, quite often, throughout the lore.
And hell, in this little story about some warp leaking through the defenses of a given planet, it could work too.
The question you should be asking yourselves is whether it would work in an MMO. I've seen people express a dislike for the idea of Eldar dancing naked on the mailbox of a Battlebarge, and that is exactly what will happen with a two faction system. The alternative is to limit Eldar from entering IoM-specific areas, which would then prevent quest giver overlap. At this point, what is there to gain from the alliance? Grouping.
With the ability to group up being the only real gain from such an alliance (and it would be an alliance), I would put forth the idea that instead of pure cut and dry alliances where everyone is a friendly happy-go-lucky buddy of everyone else, they are instead separate factions with the ability to group up. If you're grouped/guilded, you're green and cannot attack each other. If you're out of a group, they are yellow and are immune to Area of Effect, but can be attacked by specifically targetting them and attacking.
That would be far closer to the fluff, and solve grouping issues, no?
Are you guys really arguing about whether or not coordination between races happens? I know next to nothing about the fluff and can tell you with absolute finality that they do in fact happen, quite often, throughout the lore.
And hell, in this little story about some warp leaking through the defenses of a given planet, it could work too.
The question you should be asking yourselves is whether it would work in an MMO. I've seen people express a dislike for the idea of Eldar dancing naked on the mailbox of a Battlebarge, and that is exactly what will happen with a two faction system. The alternative is to limit Eldar from entering IoM-specific areas, which would then prevent quest giver overlap. At this point, what is there to gain from the alliance? Grouping.
With the ability to group up being the only real gain from such an alliance (and it would be an alliance), I would put forth the idea that instead of pure cut and dry alliances where everyone is a friendly happy-go-lucky buddy of everyone else, they are instead separate factions with the ability to group up. If you're grouped/guilded, you're green and cannot attack each other. If you're out of a group, they are yellow and are immune to Area of Effect, but can be attacked by specifically targetting them and attacking.
That would be far closer to the fluff, and solve grouping issues, no?
You're right that races COULD conspire, to a degree. But it's not very likely.
-The Eldar and Dark Eldar are as like as not to use any other species as pawns to further their own goals. But see every race but themselves as inferior. A long-term alliance is unlikely.
-The Tau have allies with both the Eldar and the Empire in the past, "For the Greater Good." Of all the races I can see them the most likley to cooperate with another.
-The Tyranid and Necrons will NEVER work with anyone.
-Chaos might work with the DEs if it furtherered their goals; they'd also be willing to use other races as catspaws.
-The Empire will not work with Xenos unless forced (once or twice during major Tyranid or Necron threats, it has happened).
-I cannot think of a single time in the lore where Orks have cooperated with any other race. They hardly cooperate with themselves unless there's a WAAAGH! on.
I'm just saying, I can't see support for a two-faction "Order vs Chaos" design. I thought it was silly in Warhammer Online, it will be sillier here.
Are you guys really arguing about whether or not coordination between races happens? I know next to nothing about the fluff and can tell you with absolute finality that they do in fact happen, quite often, throughout the lore.
And hell, in this little story about some warp leaking through the defenses of a given planet, it could work too.
The question you should be asking yourselves is whether it would work in an MMO. I've seen people express a dislike for the idea of Eldar dancing naked on the mailbox of a Battlebarge, and that is exactly what will happen with a two faction system. The alternative is to limit Eldar from entering IoM-specific areas, which would then prevent quest giver overlap. At this point, what is there to gain from the alliance? Grouping.
With the ability to group up being the only real gain from such an alliance (and it would be an alliance), I would put forth the idea that instead of pure cut and dry alliances where everyone is a friendly happy-go-lucky buddy of everyone else, they are instead separate factions with the ability to group up. If you're grouped/guilded, you're green and cannot attack each other. If you're out of a group, they are yellow and are immune to Area of Effect, but can be attacked by specifically targetting them and attacking.
That would be far closer to the fluff, and solve grouping issues, no?
You're right that races COULD conspire, to a degree. But it's not very likely.
-The Eldar and Dark Eldar are as like as not to use any other species as pawns to further their own goals. But see every race but themselves as inferior. A long-term alliance is unlikely.
-The Tau have allies with both the Eldar and the Empire in the past, "For the Greater Good." Of all the races I can see them the most likley to cooperate with another.
-The Tyranid and Necrons will NEVER work with anyone.
-Chaos might work with the DEs if it furtherered their goals; they'd also be willing to use other races as catspaws.
-The Empire will not work with Xenos unless forced (once or twice during major Tyranid or Necron threats, it has happened).
-I cannot think of a single time in the lore where Orks have cooperated with any other race. They hardly cooperate with themselves unless there's a WAAAGH! on.
I'm just saying, I can't see support for a two-faction "Order vs Chaos" design. I thought it was silly in Warhammer Online, it will be sillier here.
I don't disagree, I find it absurd, but if a compromise was forced, I'd accept a system where you can in fact fight against a given 'ally', but the grand scheme of things brought them close enough together to prevent the other side from succeeding.
And ugh, I really don't want to further this lame argument about cooperation, but from my limited knowledge of the universe, aren't the Orks frequently coerced into battle by the draw of a good fight? They'll listen as long as the promises of a great bloody mess are more entising than just killing those doing the talking.
My ideal system would definitely to make every group their own faction, but I highly doubt the developers will scurry far enough away from the draw of WoW's success to take what they consider to be a risk.
The developers don't want to make every race it's own faction because there's no way in hell or on earth that they could make an even halfway decent game with that kind of demand.
There is a VERY uncompromising reality that games must ship eventually. Having a good idea of what can be accomplished in your allotted time is vital to having a good product at release. Losing sight on what could and couldn't be done with their given time was one of the underlying reasons WAR was in such poor condition when it launched. People can scream and curse at the publishers for pushing a product out the door unfinished, but they have a business to run. They can't just keep feeding cash into a project without any indication that their extra time (and money) will pay off in the end.
And as for the whole "I can see it for a temporary alliance" argument, 10 or 20 years in the scope of 40k IS "temporary." People can be born at the beginning of a siege and live to be old enough to join the imperial guard to fight that same siege. With the stakes set at the creation of a new Eye of Terror, no one is going to be backing down from this fight alive. The time frame is definitely appropriate.
The developers don't want to make every race it's own faction because there's no way in hell or on earth that they could make an even halfway decent game with that kind of demand.
There is a VERY uncompromising reality that games must ship eventually. Having a good idea of what can be accomplished in your allotted time is vital to having a good product at release. Losing sight on what could and couldn't be done with their given time was one of the underlying reasons WAR was in such poor condition when it launched. People can scream and curse at the publishers for pushing a product out the door unfinished, but they have a business to run. They can't just keep feeding cash into a project without any indication that their extra time (and money) will pay off in the end.
And as for the whole "I can see it for a temporary alliance" argument, 10 or 20 years in the scope of 40k IS "temporary." People can be born at the beginning of a siege and live to be old enough to join the imperial guard to fight that same siege. With the stakes set at the creation of a new Eye of Terror, no one is going to be backing down from this fight alive. The time frame is definitely appropriate.
I don't think anyone but a complete retard would argue against the idea that they would cooperate to prevent something all "order" races would suffer from.
The worrisome issue is how often we'll walk in on some Space Marines having a tea party with a Farseer. Or even a herd of Orkz chatting up a heretic about the latest world politics.
I don't expect players to uphold the lore; there will definitely be naked mailbox dancing and if not mailboxes, whatever common object is nearest a bunch of players. What I would expect is for the developers to at least try to protect the children from such sights as Orkz and Dark Eldar playing Ring-a-Round the Slave Pen. My god, is nothing sacred?
How do you protect ANYTHING from players? If there is a way to brutally maim and destroy it, players WILL find it. That's not a threat, it's a promise. No matter what you do, everyone being their own faction, no communication between races, banning players that crossrealm, they will find a way to destroy everything you know and love. There will be thousands of players named in some way after Legolas, chat will be filled with chatspeak, enemies will teabag you, naked orkz will fill the streets of cities showing off non-existant reproductive organs, and chineese gold farmers will still bug the shit out of you with yet another website they expect people to fall for.
How do you protect ANYTHING from players? If there is a way to brutally maim and destroy it, players WILL find it. That's not a threat, it's a promise. No matter what you do, everyone being their own faction, no communication between races, banning players that crossrealm, they will find a way to destroy everything you know and love. There will be thousands of players named in some way after Legolas, chat will be filled with chatspeak, enemies will teabag you, naked orkz will fill the streets of cities showing off non-existant reproductive organs, and chineese gold farmers will still bug the shit out of you with yet another website they expect people to fall for.
Oh definitely. Even if I choose not to play the game, I can't wait to see the fallout from hardcore 40k fans as they see their beloved fluff systematically raped by an endless horde of giggling school boys. Hell, I'll be shirt and shoeless along with them, because I'm just that sort of ass hole.
But that doesn't mean the developers should lift all boundaries, because those boundaries aren't just there to restrict players; they are there to further immerse people into their race, which is supposedly teetering on a brittle alliance at all times, just waiting for the miniscule crack that will jettison them into all-out-war. If I can't backstab my allies, it won't be 40k. In all cases mentioned through the thread where cooperation was deemed necessary for survival, there was always the option of one or both sides pulling some asshattery, and a lot of the times they were complete asshats and turned on their "allies" the moment the opportunity presented itself.
Another even further compromise is to only use my suggestion on PvP servers, or even a couple hardcore servers. Throw the fans a bone and they'll be happy; completely shut them out and they'll see red.
Provided there's a demand for it, server rulesets will be a definite possibility. But regardless of what players may or may not do, I think everyone is guilty of an extreme form of a slippery slope. They've heard that there will be two factions, so by default this game is the illegitimate offspring of warhammer 40k and my little pony with tea parties between space marines and farseers and everyone just wanting to be friends with each other. The problem is that everyone associates 2 factions with world of warcraft, and because of that they think everything story and plotwise will mirror alliance and horde.
I have a sad feeling that the lemmings won't shut up about it until they see what Vigil makes, and find out first hand that you can have two factions and not be world of warcraft.
I think it's a little more leming to do 2 sided game. Everygame except a handful out there have been 2 sided. That's leming, to follow the 98% of mmo games ever made.
You are right though, we do need to see what Vigil has done to make a final "decision". I put that in quotations cause sometimes it's really hard to make a decision about a game. I think it's fair to say I've made a fair decision about games like ToR, that ones a no go. GW2 is very new and interesting, it doesn't even have 2 sides! As far pvp, they have both 2 sided and 3 sided pvp. I can't say I like Rusty Hearts and it's nothing like the rest of the games out there.
The Imperium of Man stands at the precipe of greatness or disaster.
The eldar fight an inevitable battle against extinction.
The ork are a manifestation of supremely advanced biological warfare.
Chaos are slaves to their dark gods.
The dark eldar are the ash and embers of of the eldar before the Fall.
I will beat the dead horse one more time. It must always be said, the key to success with the warhammer ip will always be a 3 or more faction game. Take the game Space Marine and iterate that into an mmo. Leave out the rpg bit, that gets done for the game naturally everytime some khornate player cries "Blood for the blood god!".
Give us some mayhem. Oh and if you are going to put orks into an mmo, you had best have The Kult Of Speed in it.
I will beat the dead horse one more time. It must always be said, the key to success with the warhammer ip will always be a 3 or more faction game. Take the game Space Marine and iterate that into an mmo. Leave out the rpg bit, that gets done for the game naturally everytime some khornate player cries "Blood for the blood god!".
If you create a 3 faction MMO under the warhammer 40k IP, you have locked yourself into whatever it is you're able to start with. If it happens to be only 3 races, you'll never see more than 3 playable races in the same game. I've already explained why that is earlier.
Adding a faction into a game after launch (or even after beta) is about as much work as just making a whole new game. So we can either go with order vs destruction and have a well made, expandable game that still has a strong foundation in the 40k IP, or we can try and scrap what we already have, start over with a non-expandable multi-faction game and just pray that it's even halfway decent when it launches.
I will beat the dead horse one more time. It must always be said, the key to success with the warhammer ip will always be a 3 or more faction game. Take the game Space Marine and iterate that into an mmo. Leave out the rpg bit, that gets done for the game naturally everytime some khornate player cries "Blood for the blood god!".
If you create a 3 faction MMO under the warhammer 40k IP, you have locked yourself into whatever it is you're able to start with. If it happens to be only 3 races, you'll never see more than 3 playable races in the same game. I've already explained why that is earlier.
Adding a faction into a game after launch (or even after beta) is about as much work as just making a whole new game. So we can either go with order vs destruction and have a well made, expandable game that still has a strong foundation in the 40k IP, or we can try and scrap what we already have, start over with a non-expandable multi-faction game and just pray that it's even halfway decent when it launches.
Eh? We already know they're willing to toss out the lore in favor of gameplay (gameplay is subjective), which they could still do were we to have another race thrown into the fray later on; just dump them into a current faction if required. Having three rather than two actually gives them more options as long as they proactively balance the population. They could add a single race rather than try to make everything equal by adding two, for example.
Aside from that, I also disagree about it being more work to add a faction, especially if you already have more than two. It is of course on a case by case basis and in some cases it'll be harder, but from a programmer's standpoint it is just as difficult as adding another race to a current faction. Hostilities, permissions, etc still have to be written in, or copied in which can be done with factions as well. New quests/missions still have to be written in, new models still have to be created, and battlegrounds/areas/etc can basically stay the same assuming they were planning for the future. From what I've heard, they're allowing flanking and other battlefield manuevers that require a lot of space, so I doubt another faction being thrown in would need another spot to start in (this depends entirely on the layout, however).
But yeah, I'm worried as well about how much it'll eat into the game progress. They don't seem to have their deadline as set as other MMOs, so all it may do is push it back three months. On the other hand, WAR did some kind of huge revamp later in the game and it cost them dearly. I blame a lot of that on the publishers nagging on them. I guess we'll find out the final results relatively shortly. :P
Most of the work is in map creation. Granted, there's a fair bit of work to be done in figuring out mechanics and debugging code and such, but those are startup costs, once you have them you can move them around and reuse them easily. The amount of work required to increase the total number of factions however has huge logistical issues involved though. I'll use warhammer online as an example because it's easy to visualize. To add a 3rd faction to WAR, in addition to the cost of making 3 additional races (art, animation, sound etc) which would be the same regardless of whether they added them as a new faction or as allies to the current factions, they'd also need to redo the currently existing maps, capture mechanics, scenarios, city sieges, and probably a dozen other issues I'm not even aware of to allow for a fair 3 sided fight.
The new Mourkain Temple they released recently for wrath of heroes is an example of how much work it takes to convert from 2 faction fights to 3. Just for one scenario, they added a new spawn point, shifted the old two, redid the layout of cover, opened up the temple itself, added flags to control and a stationary artifact. Then there were the other startup coding and design changes to adjust from 2 factions to 3.
And Vigil would have to do that for every race they wanted to add. Starting with just Imperium, Orks and Chaos, they'd have to do all that for Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons and Nids. That's the price of a game with no allies. It's simply not in the cards.
Most of the work is in map creation. Granted, there's a fair bit of work to be done in figuring out mechanics and debugging code and such, but those are startup costs, once you have them you can move them around and reuse them easily. The amount of work required to increase the total number of factions however has huge logistical issues involved though. I'll use warhammer online as an example because it's easy to visualize. To add a 3rd faction to WAR, in addition to the cost of making 3 additional races (art, animation, sound etc) which would be the same regardless of whether they added them as a new faction or as allies to the current factions, they'd also need to redo the currently existing maps, capture mechanics, scenarios, city sieges, and probably a dozen other issues I'm not even aware of to allow for a fair 3 sided fight.
The new Mourkain Temple they released recently for wrath of heroes is an example of how much work it takes to convert from 2 faction fights to 3. Just for one scenario, they added a new spawn point, shifted the old two, redid the layout of cover, opened up the temple itself, added flags to control and a stationary artifact. Then there were the other startup coding and design changes to adjust from 2 factions to 3.
And Vigil would have to do that for every race they wanted to add. Starting with just Imperium, Orks and Chaos, they'd have to do all that for Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons and Nids. That's the price of a game with no allies. It's simply not in the cards.
Everything listed in your Mountain Temple example is fairly easy to accomplish, and especially so if the maps were already planned that way. I gave the "3 months" time because that is about the amount of time it would take to accomplish the addition of another faction. Three months is quite long to do any singular thing, but isn't too long if they quickly make that lost time (money) back in subscriber count. It is quite the decision to make, but it is one that I believe will pay off in the end.
Two factions is incredibly limiting, preventing possible upgrades to the system due to the gamve having been built from the ground up using only two factions. A possible future is the failure of the game, followed by a quick revamp of all the areas the players whined about. By having two factions from the start, they will never be able to add a third or split any apart without creating enormous balance issues and a ton of bugs that need to be worked out in their hurry to appease the fans.
What they could also do is to have only two factions, but allow races within a given faction to attack each other whenever they aren't grouped, in a battleground, or guilded. This would allow them to keep their battlegrounds, and would only require them to redo a few things to allow for battles with more than two factions. Because they are all supposedly working together for the greater good (no, not that one) in order (pun) to prevent the destruction (pun) of the sentinel devices, it would make complete sense that they group up and work together for certain things. It would definitely step on the fluff in certain areas like fighting side by side, healing each other, etc, but for the most part I feel this would be an acceptable compromise for the fans. And hell, as far as I know, the idea is completely unique and would fix all the problems of a 3+ faction system while adding dynamics and options that a 3+ faction system lacks. Thoughts?
MMOs aren't just "release and then wing it" projects. They are planned anywhere from two to ten years into the future to make sure they have a roadmap they won't have to think of on their own, and so they can perfect the story/content before they get to that point. To think that they'd have to change more than a few things per area when all along they have planned the addition of a new faction/race is to assume they never planned to add the new faction/race, which is hardly reasonable.
How would adding a 3rd faction to a 2 faction game be any different from adding a 4th faction to a 3 faction game? Besides of course the idea of finding credible allies to populate said 3rd faction.
2 faction fights are by their nature much more open ended than 3. Take just about every competetive game or sport out there and break it down to its basic mechanics, and you have that many options for 2 factions to fight. "Us vs Them" was what allowed Mythic to come up with all the different scenarios in the various rulesets they have. Think of all the modes of gameplay that wouldn't be possible across any number of games with 3 sides. You'd be limited only to those that worked for 3 sides. I'd be willing to bet that Planetside won't have scenarios/battlegrounds/whatever, and even if they do, it will be only 1 or 2 rulesets across different maps.
I read most of this thread and both sides are right about this argument to certain extents, here is a link for an Allies Matrix from the Apocalypse Rule Book from the Games Workshop website. I read the arguments and it promted me to dig through my personal repository of 40k books lining my bookshelves and remembered this chart. Fortunately it was found online if not you would be left with a really crappy photo I took of the page in the book lol.
My personal opinion on this is, yes this two sided conflict is fair within lore but feels like they took the path of least resistance. I would have been much more amazed with something innovative such as using this chart within game and allowing small elements (Warbands, chapters, or basically smaller military units) be they player made or NPC to form temporary alliances with allowable races. Even a passive cease fire in battleground environments would suffice, example 2v2 match Eldar and Imperium Vs Orks and Chaos, when the enemy is eliminated you must then crush your former ally who is an opposite race.
A cease fire system would have truly made the 40k universe have that feeling of there is only war, since at any time alliances are no longer worthwhile to any participants you now have another enemy to contend with from cease fires or alliances being broken.
Now the system of order vs destruction makes sense in the lore but it really is pigeonholing this IP and the players, I think my head will spin seeing multi race capitals like Dalaran from world of warcraft in 40k. I can just see such quotes
"To be Unclean That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Impure That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Abhorred That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Reviled That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Hunted That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Purged That is the fate of the Xenos
To be Cleansed For that is the fate of all Xenos"
- Catechism of the Xenos, extract from the Third Book of Indoctrinations
being a great party starter for SpaceMarine players to say at the Craftworld taverns while female eldar players (played by men) are stripped bare dancing on communication hubs.
2 faction fights are by their nature much more open ended than 3. Take just about every competetive game or sport out there and break it down to its basic mechanics, and you have that many options for 2 factions to fight. "Us vs Them" was what allowed Mythic to come up with all the different scenarios in the various rulesets they have. Think of all the modes of gameplay that wouldn't be possible across any number of games with 3 sides. You'd be limited only to those that worked for 3 sides. I'd be willing to bet that Planetside won't have scenarios/battlegrounds/whatever, and even if they do, it will be only 1 or 2 rulesets across different maps.
Or just make it a two faction game mode and only allow two in at a time. Wouldn't that mean you'd be allowed to make absolutely every game mode available to a two faction game, plus every game mode available to a three or more faction game?
There is absolutely no possible way that having only two factions would be less limiting than having more, period.
(Edit: to Krage) Who's to say they don't have something like that? The only thing they've confirmed on that front is that there are 2 major factions. Not who is in them, not what their level of hostility will be toward each other, not if there's some controlled amount of backstabbing going on, we just don't know. So instead of pulling a Zoidberg (), take what we have as a guideline for what is possible instead of a declaration of what we're going to get.
(Edit: to Krage) Who's to say they don't have something like that? The only thing they've confirmed on that front is that there are 2 major factions. Not who is in them, not what their level of hostility will be toward each other, not if there's some controlled amount of backstabbing going on, we just don't know. So instead of pulling a Zoidberg (), take what we have as a guideline for what is possible instead of a declaration of what we're going to get.
True this may be in the works we dont know anything other than 2 faction warfare, however it is most likely going to be the plain jane system of order vs destruction. If the post came out like I am offended by their decision and having a knee jerk reaction of rage it was not intended lol. I agree there is plenty of room to wiggle since we know nothing other than order vs destruction. Regardless of their decision I will likely give the game a try...well that is assuming they dont try something completely out of the IP like Chaos and the Imperium reconcil and the universe has a golden age of peace! lol
Also that video is hilarious,
"WHOOP, WHOOP, WHOOP!" *Crab crawls away* lol
But yeah guess the only thing we do know is 2 faction, not three and that doesnt mean we arent necessarily chums with xenos. Gonna have to wait this bad boy out unless we have some good ol fashion fun with speculation based on past and current trends. Not like I am gonna be human, eldar or chaos anyways, Orks da bestest and with that decision I can pretty much fight anyone for any reason lol.
You don't make Warhammer without PvP, that's plain retarded. "In the Grim Darkness of the Future, There is Only War." Ofc if you wanna make WoW or better yet, Carebear 40k: Happy Millenium online maybe PvP ain't the way to go. Nvm though I'll be happy playing Planetside 2, TSW and GW2, watching from the top as this PoS fails.
#1 who said there is no PvP? Show me the article that said that. I dare you.
#2 regardless of how many factions there are, why do you care? Is it ideal? Probably not. We can all agree that nothing would make us happier than a badass battle with 3 or 4 or more factions beating the snot out of each other. yes, that would in fact = epic.
Is it lore breaking? Absolutely not. If you can't understand WHY it's not lore breaking then someone isn't reading the previous posts, or much of the 40k fiction/codexes for that matter. Green skins will work with anyone if there is enough killing. They've worked with Tau and even be manipulated into working with the eldar. There have been numerous instances of Eldar allying with space marines. Also, while the dark eldar think of themselves as superior to all others, can you honestly not see them working with/manipulating agents of chaos to achieve their goals? Seriously?
The point is lore/canon allow for alliances. only necrons or nids seem completely incapable of allying with anyone or thing. As for this game failing? Umm...this game isn't coming out for another year if not 2 years. Lets not completely write it off because we don't agree with every little aesthetic detail.
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Sic Luceat Lux
More often than not, when multiple races are involved in a conflict, there is cooperation rather than free-for-all. Most fights are typically between two armies and are de-facto 2 sided, while others that involve 3 or more armies are split between 2 common goals and thus end up a 2 sided affair anyway. The only times there are real 3 sided battles are when each side has different end goals. Considering goals in the grand scheme of things typically boil down to saving something or destroying it, it's not often there's a 3rd (much less 4th) contender in the conflict.
"Temporary" compared to a war that has gone on for at least 12,000 years can be a pretty long time. Certainly long enough to be encompased by an MMO.
Well done, i agree with all your posts and Michael tried to railroad me his non listening agenda on previous posts
personally as a fan of the GW 40k universe they could have some awesome pvp in a RPGFPS like planetside 2 with the player being thrown into the fire as his own avatar rather than one of the devs making
they could do amazing things with the universe and fan base they have, 3 races! hell they should have all races at the moment it is WoW with guns which will get tired really quickly (if anyone wants to throw in that WoW has the most gamers, they will certainly not all jump ship to another game after their time investment)
it needs to be new and fresh, 2 races is linear and the whole 'same ole faces' enemy gets boring
someone said axis vs allies + the others rome vs rest of the world , i think you will find there was atleast 7 dominant power struggles going on there during that period of history as for good vs bad there are so many shades of grey nothing is black and white, if they made it territory based and temporary cease fires could be traded between races you have the setting of some epic game play
as it stands see you in PS2 bud!
nerf scissors! rock is fine...
yours paper
That's all that need be said. They're delivering what you want, so go be happy.
Are you guys really arguing about whether or not coordination between races happens? I know next to nothing about the fluff and can tell you with absolute finality that they do in fact happen, quite often, throughout the lore.
And hell, in this little story about some warp leaking through the defenses of a given planet, it could work too.
The question you should be asking yourselves is whether it would work in an MMO. I've seen people express a dislike for the idea of Eldar dancing naked on the mailbox of a Battlebarge, and that is exactly what will happen with a two faction system. The alternative is to limit Eldar from entering IoM-specific areas, which would then prevent quest giver overlap. At this point, what is there to gain from the alliance? Grouping.
With the ability to group up being the only real gain from such an alliance (and it would be an alliance), I would put forth the idea that instead of pure cut and dry alliances where everyone is a friendly happy-go-lucky buddy of everyone else, they are instead separate factions with the ability to group up. If you're grouped/guilded, you're green and cannot attack each other. If you're out of a group, they are yellow and are immune to Area of Effect, but can be attacked by specifically targetting them and attacking.
That would be far closer to the fluff, and solve grouping issues, no?
Sarcasm is not a crime!
You're right that races COULD conspire, to a degree. But it's not very likely.
-The Eldar and Dark Eldar are as like as not to use any other species as pawns to further their own goals. But see every race but themselves as inferior. A long-term alliance is unlikely.
-The Tau have allies with both the Eldar and the Empire in the past, "For the Greater Good." Of all the races I can see them the most likley to cooperate with another.
-The Tyranid and Necrons will NEVER work with anyone.
-Chaos might work with the DEs if it furtherered their goals; they'd also be willing to use other races as catspaws.
-The Empire will not work with Xenos unless forced (once or twice during major Tyranid or Necron threats, it has happened).
-I cannot think of a single time in the lore where Orks have cooperated with any other race. They hardly cooperate with themselves unless there's a WAAAGH! on.
I'm just saying, I can't see support for a two-faction "Order vs Chaos" design. I thought it was silly in Warhammer Online, it will be sillier here.
I don't disagree, I find it absurd, but if a compromise was forced, I'd accept a system where you can in fact fight against a given 'ally', but the grand scheme of things brought them close enough together to prevent the other side from succeeding.
And ugh, I really don't want to further this lame argument about cooperation, but from my limited knowledge of the universe, aren't the Orks frequently coerced into battle by the draw of a good fight? They'll listen as long as the promises of a great bloody mess are more entising than just killing those doing the talking.
My ideal system would definitely to make every group their own faction, but I highly doubt the developers will scurry far enough away from the draw of WoW's success to take what they consider to be a risk.
Sarcasm is not a crime!
The developers don't want to make every race it's own faction because there's no way in hell or on earth that they could make an even halfway decent game with that kind of demand.
There is a VERY uncompromising reality that games must ship eventually. Having a good idea of what can be accomplished in your allotted time is vital to having a good product at release. Losing sight on what could and couldn't be done with their given time was one of the underlying reasons WAR was in such poor condition when it launched. People can scream and curse at the publishers for pushing a product out the door unfinished, but they have a business to run. They can't just keep feeding cash into a project without any indication that their extra time (and money) will pay off in the end.
And as for the whole "I can see it for a temporary alliance" argument, 10 or 20 years in the scope of 40k IS "temporary." People can be born at the beginning of a siege and live to be old enough to join the imperial guard to fight that same siege. With the stakes set at the creation of a new Eye of Terror, no one is going to be backing down from this fight alive. The time frame is definitely appropriate.
I don't think anyone but a complete retard would argue against the idea that they would cooperate to prevent something all "order" races would suffer from.
The worrisome issue is how often we'll walk in on some Space Marines having a tea party with a Farseer. Or even a herd of Orkz chatting up a heretic about the latest world politics.
I don't expect players to uphold the lore; there will definitely be naked mailbox dancing and if not mailboxes, whatever common object is nearest a bunch of players. What I would expect is for the developers to at least try to protect the children from such sights as Orkz and Dark Eldar playing Ring-a-Round the Slave Pen. My god, is nothing sacred?
Sarcasm is not a crime!
How do you protect ANYTHING from players? If there is a way to brutally maim and destroy it, players WILL find it. That's not a threat, it's a promise. No matter what you do, everyone being their own faction, no communication between races, banning players that crossrealm, they will find a way to destroy everything you know and love. There will be thousands of players named in some way after Legolas, chat will be filled with chatspeak, enemies will teabag you, naked orkz will fill the streets of cities showing off non-existant reproductive organs, and chineese gold farmers will still bug the shit out of you with yet another website they expect people to fall for.
Oh definitely. Even if I choose not to play the game, I can't wait to see the fallout from hardcore 40k fans as they see their beloved fluff systematically raped by an endless horde of giggling school boys. Hell, I'll be shirt and shoeless along with them, because I'm just that sort of ass hole.
But that doesn't mean the developers should lift all boundaries, because those boundaries aren't just there to restrict players; they are there to further immerse people into their race, which is supposedly teetering on a brittle alliance at all times, just waiting for the miniscule crack that will jettison them into all-out-war. If I can't backstab my allies, it won't be 40k. In all cases mentioned through the thread where cooperation was deemed necessary for survival, there was always the option of one or both sides pulling some asshattery, and a lot of the times they were complete asshats and turned on their "allies" the moment the opportunity presented itself.
Another even further compromise is to only use my suggestion on PvP servers, or even a couple hardcore servers. Throw the fans a bone and they'll be happy; completely shut them out and they'll see red.
Sarcasm is not a crime!
Provided there's a demand for it, server rulesets will be a definite possibility. But regardless of what players may or may not do, I think everyone is guilty of an extreme form of a slippery slope. They've heard that there will be two factions, so by default this game is the illegitimate offspring of warhammer 40k and my little pony with tea parties between space marines and farseers and everyone just wanting to be friends with each other. The problem is that everyone associates 2 factions with world of warcraft, and because of that they think everything story and plotwise will mirror alliance and horde.
I have a sad feeling that the lemmings won't shut up about it until they see what Vigil makes, and find out first hand that you can have two factions and not be world of warcraft.
Lemings? C'mon Mike!
I think it's a little more leming to do 2 sided game. Everygame except a handful out there have been 2 sided. That's leming, to follow the 98% of mmo games ever made.
You are right though, we do need to see what Vigil has done to make a final "decision". I put that in quotations cause sometimes it's really hard to make a decision about a game. I think it's fair to say I've made a fair decision about games like ToR, that ones a no go. GW2 is very new and interesting, it doesn't even have 2 sides! As far pvp, they have both 2 sided and 3 sided pvp. I can't say I like Rusty Hearts and it's nothing like the rest of the games out there.
Sic Luceat Lux
The Imperium of Man stands at the precipe of greatness or disaster.
The eldar fight an inevitable battle against extinction.
The ork are a manifestation of supremely advanced biological warfare.
Chaos are slaves to their dark gods.
The dark eldar are the ash and embers of of the eldar before the Fall.
I will beat the dead horse one more time. It must always be said, the key to success with the warhammer ip will always be a 3 or more faction game. Take the game Space Marine and iterate that into an mmo. Leave out the rpg bit, that gets done for the game naturally everytime some khornate player cries "Blood for the blood god!".
Give us some mayhem. Oh and if you are going to put orks into an mmo, you had best have The Kult Of Speed in it.
Come on Vigil, listen to the people!
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
If you create a 3 faction MMO under the warhammer 40k IP, you have locked yourself into whatever it is you're able to start with. If it happens to be only 3 races, you'll never see more than 3 playable races in the same game. I've already explained why that is earlier.
Adding a faction into a game after launch (or even after beta) is about as much work as just making a whole new game. So we can either go with order vs destruction and have a well made, expandable game that still has a strong foundation in the 40k IP, or we can try and scrap what we already have, start over with a non-expandable multi-faction game and just pray that it's even halfway decent when it launches.
Eh? We already know they're willing to toss out the lore in favor of gameplay (gameplay is subjective), which they could still do were we to have another race thrown into the fray later on; just dump them into a current faction if required. Having three rather than two actually gives them more options as long as they proactively balance the population. They could add a single race rather than try to make everything equal by adding two, for example.
Aside from that, I also disagree about it being more work to add a faction, especially if you already have more than two. It is of course on a case by case basis and in some cases it'll be harder, but from a programmer's standpoint it is just as difficult as adding another race to a current faction. Hostilities, permissions, etc still have to be written in, or copied in which can be done with factions as well. New quests/missions still have to be written in, new models still have to be created, and battlegrounds/areas/etc can basically stay the same assuming they were planning for the future. From what I've heard, they're allowing flanking and other battlefield manuevers that require a lot of space, so I doubt another faction being thrown in would need another spot to start in (this depends entirely on the layout, however).
But yeah, I'm worried as well about how much it'll eat into the game progress. They don't seem to have their deadline as set as other MMOs, so all it may do is push it back three months. On the other hand, WAR did some kind of huge revamp later in the game and it cost them dearly. I blame a lot of that on the publishers nagging on them. I guess we'll find out the final results relatively shortly. :P
Sarcasm is not a crime!
Most of the work is in map creation. Granted, there's a fair bit of work to be done in figuring out mechanics and debugging code and such, but those are startup costs, once you have them you can move them around and reuse them easily. The amount of work required to increase the total number of factions however has huge logistical issues involved though. I'll use warhammer online as an example because it's easy to visualize. To add a 3rd faction to WAR, in addition to the cost of making 3 additional races (art, animation, sound etc) which would be the same regardless of whether they added them as a new faction or as allies to the current factions, they'd also need to redo the currently existing maps, capture mechanics, scenarios, city sieges, and probably a dozen other issues I'm not even aware of to allow for a fair 3 sided fight.
The new Mourkain Temple they released recently for wrath of heroes is an example of how much work it takes to convert from 2 faction fights to 3. Just for one scenario, they added a new spawn point, shifted the old two, redid the layout of cover, opened up the temple itself, added flags to control and a stationary artifact. Then there were the other startup coding and design changes to adjust from 2 factions to 3.
And Vigil would have to do that for every race they wanted to add. Starting with just Imperium, Orks and Chaos, they'd have to do all that for Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons and Nids. That's the price of a game with no allies. It's simply not in the cards.
Everything listed in your Mountain Temple example is fairly easy to accomplish, and especially so if the maps were already planned that way. I gave the "3 months" time because that is about the amount of time it would take to accomplish the addition of another faction. Three months is quite long to do any singular thing, but isn't too long if they quickly make that lost time (money) back in subscriber count. It is quite the decision to make, but it is one that I believe will pay off in the end.
Two factions is incredibly limiting, preventing possible upgrades to the system due to the gamve having been built from the ground up using only two factions. A possible future is the failure of the game, followed by a quick revamp of all the areas the players whined about. By having two factions from the start, they will never be able to add a third or split any apart without creating enormous balance issues and a ton of bugs that need to be worked out in their hurry to appease the fans.
What they could also do is to have only two factions, but allow races within a given faction to attack each other whenever they aren't grouped, in a battleground, or guilded. This would allow them to keep their battlegrounds, and would only require them to redo a few things to allow for battles with more than two factions. Because they are all supposedly working together for the greater good (no, not that one) in order (pun) to prevent the destruction (pun) of the sentinel devices, it would make complete sense that they group up and work together for certain things. It would definitely step on the fluff in certain areas like fighting side by side, healing each other, etc, but for the most part I feel this would be an acceptable compromise for the fans. And hell, as far as I know, the idea is completely unique and would fix all the problems of a 3+ faction system while adding dynamics and options that a 3+ faction system lacks. Thoughts?
MMOs aren't just "release and then wing it" projects. They are planned anywhere from two to ten years into the future to make sure they have a roadmap they won't have to think of on their own, and so they can perfect the story/content before they get to that point. To think that they'd have to change more than a few things per area when all along they have planned the addition of a new faction/race is to assume they never planned to add the new faction/race, which is hardly reasonable.
Sarcasm is not a crime!
How would adding a 3rd faction to a 2 faction game be any different from adding a 4th faction to a 3 faction game? Besides of course the idea of finding credible allies to populate said 3rd faction.
2 faction fights are by their nature much more open ended than 3. Take just about every competetive game or sport out there and break it down to its basic mechanics, and you have that many options for 2 factions to fight. "Us vs Them" was what allowed Mythic to come up with all the different scenarios in the various rulesets they have. Think of all the modes of gameplay that wouldn't be possible across any number of games with 3 sides. You'd be limited only to those that worked for 3 sides. I'd be willing to bet that Planetside won't have scenarios/battlegrounds/whatever, and even if they do, it will be only 1 or 2 rulesets across different maps.
I read most of this thread and both sides are right about this argument to certain extents, here is a link for an Allies Matrix from the Apocalypse Rule Book from the Games Workshop website. I read the arguments and it promted me to dig through my personal repository of 40k books lining my bookshelves and remembered this chart. Fortunately it was found online if not you would be left with a really crappy photo I took of the page in the book lol.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180099_Apocalypse_Allies_Chart.pdf
My personal opinion on this is, yes this two sided conflict is fair within lore but feels like they took the path of least resistance. I would have been much more amazed with something innovative such as using this chart within game and allowing small elements (Warbands, chapters, or basically smaller military units) be they player made or NPC to form temporary alliances with allowable races. Even a passive cease fire in battleground environments would suffice, example 2v2 match Eldar and Imperium Vs Orks and Chaos, when the enemy is eliminated you must then crush your former ally who is an opposite race.
A cease fire system would have truly made the 40k universe have that feeling of there is only war, since at any time alliances are no longer worthwhile to any participants you now have another enemy to contend with from cease fires or alliances being broken.
Now the system of order vs destruction makes sense in the lore but it really is pigeonholing this IP and the players, I think my head will spin seeing multi race capitals like Dalaran from world of warcraft in 40k. I can just see such quotes
"To be Unclean That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Impure That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Abhorred That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Reviled That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Hunted That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Purged That is the fate of the Xenos
To be Cleansed For that is the fate of all Xenos"
- Catechism of the Xenos, extract from the Third Book of Indoctrinations
being a great party starter for SpaceMarine players to say at the Craftworld taverns while female eldar players (played by men) are stripped bare dancing on communication hubs.
Or just make it a two faction game mode and only allow two in at a time. Wouldn't that mean you'd be allowed to make absolutely every game mode available to a two faction game, plus every game mode available to a three or more faction game?
There is absolutely no possible way that having only two factions would be less limiting than having more, period.
Sarcasm is not a crime!
(Edit: to Krage) Who's to say they don't have something like that? The only thing they've confirmed on that front is that there are 2 major factions. Not who is in them, not what their level of hostility will be toward each other, not if there's some controlled amount of backstabbing going on, we just don't know. So instead of pulling a Zoidberg (
), take what we have as a guideline for what is possible instead of a declaration of what we're going to get.
True this may be in the works we dont know anything other than 2 faction warfare, however it is most likely going to be the plain jane system of order vs destruction. If the post came out like I am offended by their decision and having a knee jerk reaction of rage it was not intended lol. I agree there is plenty of room to wiggle since we know nothing other than order vs destruction. Regardless of their decision I will likely give the game a try...well that is assuming they dont try something completely out of the IP like Chaos and the Imperium reconcil and the universe has a golden age of peace! lol
Also that video is hilarious,
"WHOOP, WHOOP, WHOOP!" *Crab crawls away* lol
But yeah guess the only thing we do know is 2 faction, not three and that doesnt mean we arent necessarily chums with xenos. Gonna have to wait this bad boy out unless we have some good ol fashion fun with speculation based on past and current trends. Not like I am gonna be human, eldar or chaos anyways, Orks da bestest and with that decision I can pretty much fight anyone for any reason lol.
#1 who said there is no PvP? Show me the article that said that. I dare you.
#2 regardless of how many factions there are, why do you care? Is it ideal? Probably not. We can all agree that nothing would make us happier than a badass battle with 3 or 4 or more factions beating the snot out of each other. yes, that would in fact = epic.
Is it lore breaking? Absolutely not. If you can't understand WHY it's not lore breaking then someone isn't reading the previous posts, or much of the 40k fiction/codexes for that matter. Green skins will work with anyone if there is enough killing. They've worked with Tau and even be manipulated into working with the eldar. There have been numerous instances of Eldar allying with space marines. Also, while the dark eldar think of themselves as superior to all others, can you honestly not see them working with/manipulating agents of chaos to achieve their goals? Seriously?
The point is lore/canon allow for alliances. only necrons or nids seem completely incapable of allying with anyone or thing. As for this game failing? Umm...this game isn't coming out for another year if not 2 years. Lets not completely write it off because we don't agree with every little aesthetic detail.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.