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wow at first I didnt like Bioware because of their "Too Story Focused console games" but Bioware has
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I was hyped for Dragon Age from all the media of this fantasy RPG. I got it for PS3, and quit due to soo many cutscenes. I just couldnt take a "Movie with gameplay elements". thats just not my thing. I figured these same minded people would move on to make SWTOR into a similar "Movie with massive multiplayer gameplay elements".
But after reading this comment that somebody linked in another thread, Bioware has earned some respect back.
"It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Zeschuk said. {source...}"
This here show a mindset that Bioware arent simplay a studio made up of Ego Driven Blind WoW Haters like Mythic was with Warhammer (ironic I know), and how Anet and ZombieLabs are. They remind me of Trion, the developers seem to understand that most of these WoW players dont HATE WOW, they simply tired of it and want something new. Developers with this mindset seem to do well.
+Bioware.
I dont expect SWTOR to be a WoW killer or anything, but it sure will make a good replacement if done well. I still have some issues with the development, thats why I support criticism of the game. It will help improve this game greatly as it did for Trion.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Your first experience with Bioware was Dragon Age? I feel like you haven't been gaming very long, and I know lots of the folks who have jumped into gaming in the last few years have very little sense of quality due to a rather limited exposure and experience of games. Instant gratification and shallowness runs amuck in this crowd.
So... more of the same + SP story presentation? Just saying.
The problem here is that WoW is around a decade old. Its mechanics are also that old. There's nothing really wrong with that. Rift has done well for itself. But I cant think of another WoW clone that has.
I have to wonder if even Blizzard holds to this philosophy. In regards to their new project " Titan ", I really wonder if its going to have the same mechanics as WoW. I wouldnt be surprised if they pushed the envelope a little bit.
And since when was innovation, creativity, and originality stupid? Yes building their mechanics around WoW will probably work for them, but its not going to shock and awe people either.
You live in a small town. There is only a burger joint. Thats all the town has got and they do good business because people eat lunch. If you open another burger joint and say, " Hey! Hey! We have burgers too! " you'll do some business. But most people will continue to get their burgers where they've been getting them. Open a Mexican food restaurant? Watch the money pile in.
OP you may think this is a +1 for Bioware, but I see it as a -5 . From a company that seemingly pushed innovation and originality for so long, this is just dissapointing to see.
That is true, I don't hate WoW, just bored of the setting. If Bioware ends up copying WoW properly all-the-while adding some new elements and expanding on what Blizzard did, then great! Most of all they've got to get the character animations as smooth as possible ~ that is the one thing that makes WoW stand out over most MMOs, and where so many keep failing, among other things...
Got to say this is a well written post, and definetely bang on.
M
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War
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well it has been proven more than once that a good story in a rpg can be better than a high graphic game with crapy story and gameplay, and thats obvious a game can be high end graphical and engine made, but without a good background,story and gameplay its not worth anything, thats my oponion.
I'm not even bored of the Warcraft setting, just bored of the same content being re-released. Also the fact that world PvP pretty much died after BGs were introduced and all Blizz did was put out half assed incentives for it. TOR world PvP, on the other hand, looks like WAR RvR but done better. I'm probably more excited about that than anything.
And why do you think it is a necessity to shock and awe us? MMOS work fine as long as they have loads of content and is well supported by a company, Rift for example. People focus too much on innovationa and element of shock. As long as the game plays fine and is not a total buggy mess right out of the box like Warhammer and AOC, i think that is +5 since WOW is known for its polish and quality.
Shrug. Really, I think MMO gamers who have grown bored are going a little too far in their need for innovation and originality, throwing away any base on which a genre is known for and has been successful with. More so than you see gamers do in other genres where apparently people can appreciate and enjoy the core mechanics of those genres more.
To me, it sounds like a number of MMO gamers are more bored or difficult to please than gamers who play those other gaming genres.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Bioware used make the best pc rpg games back in the day, sadly that is not the case anymore.
Storytelling the way Bioware is currently doing it has never been done before in an MMO why is that not innovative but adding a dodge button is?
Anymore? you must be disappointed by DA2 i guess? no body is perfect and yes not even Bioware. i hardly doubt that one under appreciated title is going to tarnish their reputation as great RPG devs. Everything will change once ME3 comes out.
I couldn't help but think of few parts of Jeff Strain's 2007 Game Convention Speech, while he was working at ArenaNet. It's lengthy so I just grabbed a few.
He doesn't sound like a "Hater" and I think it describes why ArenaNet has the direction it has. Having a differently philosophy doesn't make you a hater. Falsely accusing others of it may though.
...
"To those of you who chose to come today believing that I would make far-reaching predictions about the games we'll be creating ten years from now, I apologize. The truth is, I hope that I am completely ignorant about what kind of games we'll be making in ten years, because I hope some hotshot kid comes out of nowhere and changes everything out from under us before then. If that doesn't happen, we've all failed to embrace and protect the culture of innovation that made it possible for us to be here in the first place."
"Don't be fooled by the much-hyped success of the top MMOs on the market. The game industry is littered with the carnage of MMOs that have failed over the past few years. Due largely to the social nature of MMOs, gamers rarely commit to more than one or two MMOs at a time. This is in contrast to the traditional game market, in which there is room for many games to be successful, even within the same genre. You may play ten different action games this year, but you are very unlikely to play more than one or two MMOs. This means that it is not enough to make a great game – instead you must make a game that is so overwhelmingly superior that it can actively break apart an established community and bring that community to your game. In today's market, that is a tall order."
"....designers are often asked to make a game that is specifically designed to be "better" than a successful game from a competitor, rather than making a game that is exciting and new. How many designers have been asked to make a "GTA killer", or a "Guitar Hero killer", or a "WoW killer"? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but..." I just shake my head when I hear this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game that is an evolution of WoW is... well, the WoW team. They've got their thing, and they're good at it. Let's all carve out our own thing, and be the best at it. Truly great games are made by passionate teams who are on fire with the notion of changing the industry. If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you've lost."
Don't believe you are making WoW 2.0 with a quarter of WoW's budget
Many recent MMOs failed because they were rushed to market, had less content, or were not as polished as established games. It's no secret that WoW has been a big success, and there is a reason for that success. While it may not be the most innovative product on the market, WoW offers a tremendous amount of content and is an exceptionally polished game. Everyone wants to duplicate that success, but I'm not sure that everyone is realistic about what that means. WoW was in development for five years, was built on an established and very popular game universe, and probably cost more than $40 million to create. Don't believe that there is some magic design element that you will add to your MMO that will allow you to steal all of WoW's subscription customers. If you find yourself saying, "It's like WoW, but...," you're in trouble. To reiterate an earlier point – go do your own thing, and let them do theirs.
Developing a new MMO requires a lot of money and a lot of time. If you are starting today and don't have at least three years and $30 million dollars, consider developing in another genre. Also be prepared to attract and manage a large development team. We have 140 full-time developers working on Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 at ArenaNet, and that number will probably have to grow throughout the Guild Wars 2 development cycle. It is much easier and less risky to make exciting, innovative games in other genres. Unfortunately, some of us just can't make that decision – we're intoxicated by the thought of building the ultimate MMO, and we feel compelled to dedicate our lives to that pursuit. If that describes you, then by all means jump in and let's keep pushing the boundaries of possibility together. But bring cash – lot's of it – and make sure that you are working with people on the business side who are willing to let you make the best game you can make, because there are no successful B-titles in the MMO industry.
I'll end by paraphrasing the famous Japanese game designer, Masaya Matsuura: Go forth, and do weird and difficult things! Thank you.
So who makes the best PC RPG games now?
Wow Steejanz, great post.
Not my words, just passing info on.
I am sure the other companies labelled as haters have made similar statements.
You used the word "fine" alot. And yes, it will work out "fine". I was originally expecting a little more than "fine". Or "okay".
Swtor will do fine. I have absolutely no doubt. And when people ask you how much you like it you can say, " Oh I like it just fine. "
They went for making action RPG's, which is a slightly different type of RPG than traditional ones, and they went for the console market where money can be made and has a somewhat different audience than traditional PC market, but that doesn't mean that their games are less, just different.
I think the sales figures and review figures of Mass Effect, Dark Age: Origins and ME2 are proof enough that their games are still considered among the best. Even if some people might not like it that BW went into the console market and a straying away from pure classical RPG's.
As for innovation or learning from the successes of other former MMO's and their companies, I think that there can be several design models and paths that can be successful, there isn't just one road that leads to Rome with all others leading astray. Just ignoring what lessons can be learnt in MMO design and gameplay appeal of a hugely successful game like WoW sounds foolish to me. After all, if you read the interviews and elaborations of the Blizzard designers how they went about designing WoW and the philosophies they were implementing and things they learnt after launch, they're pretty damn smart with some deep design visions, their success wasn't just some magic gift happening, it happened because of the soundness of their ideas and approach towards gameplay.
People might not like the gameplay philosophies that Blizzard chose to follow in their design, but they're pretty solid as ideas.
But learning lessons from predecessors doesn't mean copying everything. I think that the BW people have shown in their own way that they took a good look at the core mechanics, finetuned and improved where they wanted to and implemented some of their own features and mechanics that they think will do right.
Again, people might not like the design philosophies of the SWTOR team, but as ideas they're pretty solid as well. As for how successful they can be, only time will tell.
I don't know if 'haters' is the right term to use for MMO companies, after all they're only trying to make money and development paths are chosen that strive to make that happen. However, there have been some that try hard to be very different from WoW and exclaim it so, like the Warhammer guys did (next to boasting).
However, like said, there can be lessons learnt from WoW's success which would be foolish to ignore, just like there can be lessons learnt from any hugely successful product and company. Good designers and creators learn the right lessons from the past.
NB: oh, btw, iirc Jeff Strain has left ANet quite some time ago, to go work with friends at Undead Labs at their zombie games.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Which recent Bioware games dont you like? When do you reckon they started to go downhill? I think all of their recent games have been amazing!
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
I didn't like dragon age 1 either, i thought it was a very linear experience
Sorry but in my opinion I think it is pretty stupid to say you need to make a WoW clone to be successful. WoW clone's usually fail within a year, this has already been proven.
Since you didn't bother to read rest of the replies i will copy paste this for you..
Don't believe you are making WoW 2.0 with a quarter of WoW's budget
Many recent MMOs failed because they were rushed to market, had less content, or were not as polished as established games. It's no secret that WoW has been a big success, and there is a reason for that success. While it may not be the most innovative product on the market, WoW offers a tremendous amount of content and is an exceptionally polished game. Everyone wants to duplicate that success, but I'm not sure that everyone is realistic about what that means.
pay attention to rushed to market, less content and lack of polish. Sounds familiar? AOC? Warhammer?. A lot of MMOS failed in first year due to this reason not because they were just a WOW clone. How come Rift is doing so well then? because it had a perfect launch and Trion is very dedicated in releasing new content.
Simpletons??? Hold on there. Calm down a bit.
Having interest in a Star Wars mmorpg based on the Kotor IP, thats being made by Bioware does not make you a simpleton in any way, shape, or form. Im interested in it. All Im saying is I dont like this philosphy presented in the OP. It wouldnt matter if it were Swtor or some other game. But being thats it Bioware, especially has be perturbed.
The point I was trying to make is I hope Swtor fans are using words like "exciting, thrilling, interesting, novel, different " when Swtor comes out. Not " fine, okay, decent, " . And I certainly dread hearing things like, " WoW with lightsabers". Bioware is capable of so much more than that, and they've proven that.
You were right about opening up a burger joint to compete with another burger place if your burgers are better. You'll have had to do something to make your burgers different. What is that difference? Something has to make those burgers better. It either has to be something extremely noticeable or even the little details. But something has to be different. Otherwise they're exactly the same.
Anyways back to my original point, looking forward to Swtor has no indication on a persons intelligence at all. People that have an IQ of 190 will be playing the daylights out of Swtor. Some will do it for years no matter how the game turns out. This game may turn out to be amazing anyways. Im just saying I dont appreciate that design philosophy.
That is only partially true. People get bored with doing the same things over and over again. After 5+ years of WoW mechanics people are just tired of the same old same old. When TOR and GW2 release Rift will lose alot of those players. Rift is nothing more than a stop gap until we get something better.
You're giving your own interpretation to something they said.
This is what has been said:
"It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Zeschuk said
Now, I know that people - especially MMO gamers and especially on this particular site - have a tendency to interpret everything in extremes and in black and white and to see the world in black and white, but nowhere did it say "we are going to make a WoW clone" or "we are going to make a copy of WoW".
In fact, in other interviews they've clearly stated that they followed their own path with several features.
The guy merely states that WoW had some design rules to it that should be taken to heart, and of which can be learnt from.
Which sounds pretty obvious to me, considering WoW's success. People can say that WoW uses the same mechanics as EQ did, but WoW's mega success clearly says that apparently there's more to it than just these core features to generate such success. It's too simple - and wrong - an explanation to say that it was because they dumbed things down that caused the success, after all it didn't work like that for other MMO's that 'dumbed things down'.
In fact, in several articles Blizzard's designers elaborated upon several of the key design philosophies they used for WoW and how they implemented them, there was nothing simple about those.
Hmm. When WoW appeared, MMO gamers had been playing EQ for 4+ years, but still they weren't that bored to leave EQ for a WoW to do the same things over and over again that they'd been doing for the past4 years.
So, maybe some are tired, others however can still enjoy those mechanics when done in a different setting or slightly different way.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."