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wow at first I didnt like Bioware because of their "Too Story Focused console games" but Bioware has

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  • PuremallacePuremallace Member Posts: 1,856

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

     That is only partially true. People get bored with doing the same things over and over again. After 5+ years of WoW mechanics people are just tired of the same old same old.  When TOR and GW2 release Rift will lose alot of those players. Rift is nothing more than a stop gap until we get something better.

    Interesting assumption. Here is the flaw in this statement I seem to see repeated from you guys. You assume the following:

    1. That Star Wars will automatically launch perfect

    2. Noone will complain and everyone will just accept what Bioware and ArenaNET is giving them

    3. In GW2 especially you assume removing the Trinity will work and be widely accepted

    4. You assume people will actually be able to play GW2 considering the game looks very graphics heavy and lag will not play a major factor. WoW is also successful because you can play it on a toaster

    5. The most MAJOR assumtpion is Bioware and ArenaNET will deliver content at the pace you see from Rift. What do you guys do if Bioware and ArenaNET deliver content at that slow Blizzard pace?

     

    Rift is a proven game. It is there. I can log into it. If I want to I can give my friend a trial or buy the game for them very cheaply as a present to get them started. It is easy to pick up and go from the start and there are tons of features added every single month.

     

    How do I people even begin to compare SWToR or GW2 to Rift when we really do not know the above? You are asking Rift fans to argue with hype with is just impossible and not fair.

     

    That one guy posted that statement from 2007 from the GW2 dev. TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN...4 years later we are still waiting for the genre changing MMO. Look at what Trion can pull off every single month with less money and less devs. What is taking so long?

     

    MMOEXposed has a good point in his original post, but Bioware stating WoW was a good design to base a game on then ignoring decisions Blizzard was forced to make is just shocking. Cross server LFG is not a option in a trinity based game. You can argue it all day about community and what not, but when queue times are approaching one hour waiting on a tank that just does not work.

  • LittlebombLittlebomb Member Posts: 152

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by Supersoups


    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Sorry but in my opinion I think it is pretty stupid to say you need to make a WoW clone to be successful. WoW clone's usually fail within a  year, this has already been proven.

    Since you didn't bother to read rest of the replies i will copy paste this for you..

     

    Don't believe you are making WoW 2.0 with a quarter of WoW's budget

    Many recent MMOs failed because they were rushed to market, had less content, or were not as polished as established games. It's no secret that WoW has been a big success, and there is a reason for that success. While it may not be the most innovative product on the market, WoW offers a tremendous amount of content and is an exceptionally polished game. Everyone wants to duplicate that success, but I'm not sure that everyone is realistic about what that means.

     

    pay attention to rushed to market, less content and lack of polish. Sounds familiar? AOC? Warhammer?.  A lot of MMOS failed in first year due to this reason not because they were just a WOW clone. How come Rift is doing so well then? because it had a perfect launch and Trion is very dedicated in releasing new content.

     That is only partially true. People get bored with doing the same things over and over again. After 5+ years of WoW mechanics people are just tired of the same old same old.  When TOR and GW2 release Rift will lose alot of those players. Rift is nothing more than a stop gap until we get something better.

    This^ I'm  a Rift player with maxed gear for both pve and pvp. I can honestly say that I'm bored of the basic mmo mechanic's.

    Personally I welcome new mechanics

    1. The secret world finally using 3 pvp factions. (how long since DAOC have we been asking for that?)

    2. Gw2 and Tera using look targeting instead of the cheesieness that is TAB targeting.

    3. STWORS using personal story.

    I don't know why anyone would want a WOW clone. Honestly some of the things Rift Copied from WOW are just irritating. Valor and Resilience gear comes to mind. PVP in Rift is so easy for me now, I literally 2 shot 50% of the player base. It's not even fun.

    I would gladly pay a company that let's go of the PVP gear conventions that WOW has created. 

    I really look forward to gear equalized scenarios that GW2 is promissing. How nice it will be to have to outpreform my opponents with skill and spec rather than a flat damage reduction stat they gives them no hope of ever beating me.

    Rift is already bleeding a lot of subs. Just from playing RIFT for the last 6 months I can tell you also that 90% of the players are just waiting for STWORS or GW2 to come out.

  • KelthiusKelthius Member UncommonPosts: 298

    Originally posted by Puremallace

    Originally posted by SaintViktor



     That is only partially true. People get bored with doing the same things over and over again. After 5+ years of WoW mechanics people are just tired of the same old same old.  When TOR and GW2 release Rift will lose alot of those players. Rift is nothing more than a stop gap until we get something better.

    Interesting assumption. Here is the flaw in this statement I seem to see repeated from you guys. You assume the following:

    1. That Star Wars will automatically launch perfect

    Not Perfect, but it will have a ton of box sales. No doubt about that.

    2. Noone will complain and everyone will just accept what Bioware and ArenaNET is giving them

    I have not seen anyone, not even the GW2 worshipers, say that. There is already complaining about both games from people who have stated they will play them.

    3. In GW2 especially you assume removing the Trinity will work and be widely accepted

    I have seen this.

    4. You assume people will actually be able to play GW2 considering the game looks very graphics heavy and lag will not play a major factor. WoW is also successful because you can play it on a toaster

    This as well.

    5. The most MAJOR assumtpion is Bioware and ArenaNET will deliver content at the pace you see from Rift. What do you guys do if Bioware and ArenaNET deliver content at that slow Blizzard pace?

     If they have as much content as WoW, the slow pace (which really isn't that slow) won't be bad.

    Rift is a proven game. It is there. I can log into it. If I want to I can give my friend a trial or buy the game for them very cheaply as a present to get them started. It is easy to pick up and go from the start and there are tons of features added every single month.

     

    How do I people even begin to compare SWToR or GW2 to Rift when we really do not know the above? You are asking Rift fans to argue with hype with is just impossible and not fair.

     

    That one guy posted that statement from 2007 from the GW2 dev. TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN...4 years later we are still waiting for the genre changing MMO. Look at what Trion can pull off every single month with less money and less devs. What is taking so long?

     Good games take time to make? BIG SURPRISE!

    MMOEXposed has a good point in his original post, but Bioware stating WoW was a good design to base a game on then ignoring decisions Blizzard was forced to make is just shocking. Cross server LFG is not a option in a trinity based game. You can argue it all day about community and what not, but when queue times are approaching one hour waiting on a tank that just does not work.

    Just about (if not every) class has the ability to tank and heal. I don't see queue times being that long. You should read what Littlebomb posted above me. He makes a lot of sense that you, being a fellow Rift player, could probably relate to.

    image
  • PuremallacePuremallace Member Posts: 1,856

    Here is also a simple thing to think about. I am a tank. I have been a tank in every MMO I have touched for years. When I go to pick up GW2 I am going to try and theorycraft how I can still be a tank in a game not meant for a tank.

     

    People who have healed for the past 7 years in WoW are going to figure which build/gear can give them the slighest ability to be a healer.Just because you take away the Trinity does not mean I will try and figure out how to get it back.

     

    The gear gerbil race is what we are tired of. SWToR is an interesting game because if they copy WoW too much everyone will be sitting here going well why leave WoW in the first place? You see that a lot with Rift. Trion started out similar and has been branching off, but for a good month or two there people saw a pure WoW 2.0 game forming.

     

    I would like to see SWToR do the same. Start off with a stable game and go in their own direction. Stuff like Huttball sounds strange, but a warfront made for fun.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Originally posted by Puremallace

    I would like to see SWToR do the same. Start off with a stable game and go in their own direction. Stuff like Huttball sounds strange, but a warfront made for fun.

    Good points, there's a problem though. This is essentially what every themepark MMO has been doing since WoW. They've been trying to take WoW's design, and then adopt it to their own flavor of game. This would've been fine, as well, if everyone hadn't been doing the exact same thing. While RIFT is a good game (and I actually applaud what they are doing with the game), it still has the same flaw. It's built from the ground up to be like WoW.

    Why is this a problem? Because when you sew another game so deeply into your design, it severely limits how far you can differentiate your game from it. You can stylize it, add your own flavor of lore, etc. but once players play through that (endgame) it is stuck feeling very much alike. RIFT is a good example of this. It's a great game, and I used to have a ton of fun with it, however once you play through the content once, it feels very much like an oversimplified version of WoW. Even with the new content they've been adding (which is generally pretty good AND quickly implemented), it just doesn't help enough. When these games are so closely emulating one another, the replay value severely drops. This is because it feels so much like we are playing the same game over and over.

  • sldropsldrop Member Posts: 112

    "It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Zeschuk said. {source...}"

    Why do compnay/dev still want to follow "WoW rule"? There is a shit load of game F2p/ P2P all follow "WoW rule" since wow came out and failed(maybe not rift).  

    I think if SWTOR came out 2-3 years after WoW  it will give WoW run for its money...but i think its too late, too many people already got burned from all those WoW clone and all those AAA games following" Wow rule".

    Will i hope SWTOR do good...

  • kaliniskalinis Member Posts: 1,428

    to say it will play just like wow is or is copying wow to much is wrong. sure they dont wanna stray to far from the ease of use and player freindly community 

    While there ui and other stuff may be based on wow as in simple to use so what. 

    the truth is they are adding stuff thats not in any other mmo and one of them is story and companions and choice. thats not in any mmo ive ever tried and ive treid alot

    taking some of the good things wow does and adapting them to your game while adding stuff u do well like story and choice as bioware is isnt a bad thing and i dont know why everyone says it is. 

    wows sucess is undeniable. They are the most succesful mmo in history for a reason and while i never see any mmo hitting wows popularity tor and gw 2 should do ok. 

    As for rift my brother in law played it and hated it he loves wow so there u go on that. 

    i cant wait for tor. That said it will be as smooth a launch as bioware can make it no company is working harder on that then bioware. While they will have hiccups what mmo doesnt  after all even blizzards expacs have errors. and stuff. 

    they will do everything they can to fix it fast. i have never seen a community respond to the fans if there is a huge outcry against stuff. 

    they got rid of the corpse walk cause with the size of there worlds testers hated it , They changed the name of the jedi wizard and right now are looking into adding sgra romance option before launch do to huge outcry. 

    if they work this hard at satisfying custormers after launch that bodes well for tor. 

  • Hopscotch73Hopscotch73 Member UncommonPosts: 971

    Originally posted by aesperus

    Good points, there's a problem though. This is essentially what every themepark MMO has been doing since WoW. They've been trying to take WoW's design, and then adopt it to their own flavor of game. This would've been fine, as well, if everyone hadn't been doing the exact same thing. While RIFT is a good game (and I actually applaud what they are doing with the game), it still has the same flaw. It's built from the ground up to be like WoW.

    Why is this a problem? Because when you sew another game so deeply into your design, it severely limits how far you can differentiate your game from it. You can stylize it, add your own flavor of lore, etc. but once players play through that (endgame) it is stuck feeling very much alike. RIFT is a good example of this. It's a great game, and I used to have a ton of fun with it, however once you play through the content once, it feels very much like an oversimplified version of WoW. Even with the new content they've been adding (which is generally pretty good AND quickly implemented), it just doesn't help enough. When these games are so closely emulating one another, the replay value severely drops. This is because it feels so much like we are playing the same game over and over.

    That's an interesting point too, but there's a difference betowwn something being a "touchstone" (i.e. - en examplar of what MMO gaming is) and creating a weak copy of that touchstone because you either lack the imagination to make the experience feel different, or because your investors don't want you to stray too far from what's "proven" (personally I think there were too many "perfect storm" aspects to the success of WoW to make it easily replicable, but I'm not a big investor).

     

    What does seem "similar" in SW:TOR?


    • Starting out with easy tasks and very few sklills - everyone points to the low-level play, because it's what most of us have played.

    • The UI which is pretty standard for RPGs and MMOs alike.

    • There are skill trees, again, pretty standard

    • There's questing, instanced and open-world PVP (standard...)

    I remain unconvinced that they've used anything other than the basic MMO skeleton - as best exemplified by WoW.


    Difference is, I didn't expect them to. It's what they add in on top of that that could really make it stand out.


     


    Best example I can give is that I'm a lore nerd, I ususally read quest-text unless if's terribly boring. I tried in Rift, but I couldn't stomach the stodgy writing and the staleness of the ideas. Despite the soul system (which was nifty as all get out) and the Rifts themselves (fun and exciting at first, quickly becoming an annoyance), I didn't give a fig about my character, and I couldn't care less what happened next.


     


    I'm looking forward to SW:TOR because I want to play an MMO that has me caring about my character, sculpting them not just through personal RP but through story choices as well. I want to play as part of a story where I care about what happens next, where I don't want my character or companion to die because they are more than just a pile of pixels to me.


     


    If SW:TOR can do that, bring SRPG immersion to a MMO, then they will have my sub, for a long time.


    Heck, I played Fallen Earth for 2 years based on it having better storytelling than your average MMO and that game was far from perfect. I played in spite of it's flaws. I would expect that SW:TOR will be a far more highly polished game - because I assume they looked at the smoothness of gameplay in WoW as well. I know everyone's sick to the back teeth of hearing "story" all the time, but what if that turns out to be what makes the game more than "just another WoW clone"?


     


    (edited for typos, and I probably missed a couple...)

  • kaliniskalinis Member Posts: 1,428

    Actually the few skills thing isnt really true . From people ive read and stuff they say by level 20 u have as many skills as u do in wow at max level. 

    As for the basic skeleton why change it. it works players know how to use it and makes it easier for them to jump in and have fun 

    if there is one thing bioware has stated the most after story its ease of use and lack of grind. 

    they want players who jump in to have some semblance to how it will work hence simple ui and game play elements similar to wow. They also want players to feel like its not a grind when u do something the story aspects and stuff they dont want u to be out killing stuff just to kill stuff. 

    while u can do that if u want they try to take away u have to do that. They have some things that are diffrent then any mmo out there companions, choice and story are big ones. 

    while warzones seem similar they do them in a unique manner. So since i love wow i cant wait for tor and since i love the story in dragon age and mass effect as well as the interaction with companions and all the choices i make taht impact what happens to me i really cant wait to have that in an mmo

    even if one of my choices did get my sister killed in dragon age 2 and she was my second fav companion behind merill.

  • TheMaelstromTheMaelstrom Member UncommonPosts: 393

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by TheMaelstrom

    Don't have time to read all 3 pages of replies, so I apologize if someone else pointed this out, but...

     

    The ENTIRE frikkin' game is full of cut-scenes with dialogue. If you're not into cut-scenes, I think you'll be sorely disappointed with SWToR.

         Yes it is.  Isn't that stupid?  Somebody actually went to the effort of figuring out a way to actually make me interested in the quest itself.  They made the quest dialogue into a one or two minute movie that I actually get to interact with and MAKE DECISIONS that affect the quest and other things down the line of the game.  I am so gonna be pissed off about all that.

    I think you missed my point, GMan3. I wasn't passing judgement on their decision to make all the quest dialogue voice-over cut-scenese. I was pointing out that someone who has complained about cut-scenes annoying them will very likely not enjoy SWToR... because of all the cut-scenes.

    No godless person can comprehend those minute distinctions
    in doctrine that provide true believers excuse for mayhem.
    -Glen Cook

  • GMan3GMan3 Member CommonPosts: 2,127

    Originally posted by TheMaelstrom

    Originally posted by GMan3


    Originally posted by TheMaelstrom

    Don't have time to read all 3 pages of replies, so I apologize if someone else pointed this out, but...

     

    The ENTIRE frikkin' game is full of cut-scenes with dialogue. If you're not into cut-scenes, I think you'll be sorely disappointed with SWToR.

         Yes it is.  Isn't that stupid?  Somebody actually went to the effort of figuring out a way to actually make me interested in the quest itself.  They made the quest dialogue into a one or two minute movie that I actually get to interact with and MAKE DECISIONS that affect the quest and other things down the line of the game.  I am so gonna be pissed off about all that.

    I think you missed my point, GMan3. I wasn't passing judgement on their decision to make all the quest dialogue voice-over cut-scenese. I was pointing out that someone who has complained about cut-scenes annoying them will very likely not enjoy SWToR... because of all the cut-scenes.

         I think it may be you who misunderstood MY post.  I was backing you up since I think anyone that does get annoyed with it shouldn't even be playing Themepark MMOs in the first place.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • Hopscotch73Hopscotch73 Member UncommonPosts: 971

    Originally posted by kalinis

    Actually the few skills thing isnt really true . From people ive read and stuff they say by level 20 u have as many skills as u do in wow at max level. 

    As for the basic skeleton why change it. it works players know how to use it and makes it easier for them to jump in and have fun 

    if there is one thing bioware has stated the most after story its ease of use and lack of grind. 

    they want players who jump in to have some semblance to how it will work hence simple ui and game play elements similar to wow. They also want players to feel like its not a grind when u do something the story aspects and stuff they dont want u to be out killing stuff just to kill stuff. 

    while u can do that if u want they try to take away u have to do that. They have some things that are diffrent then any mmo out there companions, choice and story are big ones. 

    while warzones seem similar they do them in a unique manner. So since i love wow i cant wait for tor and since i love the story in dragon age and mass effect as well as the interaction with companions and all the choices i make taht impact what happens to me i really cant wait to have that in an mmo

    even if one of my choices did get my sister killed in dragon age 2 and she was my second fav companion behind merill.

    I think you may have misunderstood me, I said few skills starting out (ie - levels 1-3), and I wasn't criticizing the game at all.

    Did I say anywhere that there was something wrong with the standard things they have in there? Nope.

    I said what was more important was what they have chosen to do differently.

    I don't think we disagree at all to be honest.

  • TheMaelstromTheMaelstrom Member UncommonPosts: 393

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by TheMaelstrom


    Originally posted by GMan3


    Originally posted by TheMaelstrom

    Don't have time to read all 3 pages of replies, so I apologize if someone else pointed this out, but...

     

    The ENTIRE frikkin' game is full of cut-scenes with dialogue. If you're not into cut-scenes, I think you'll be sorely disappointed with SWToR.

         Yes it is.  Isn't that stupid?  Somebody actually went to the effort of figuring out a way to actually make me interested in the quest itself.  They made the quest dialogue into a one or two minute movie that I actually get to interact with and MAKE DECISIONS that affect the quest and other things down the line of the game.  I am so gonna be pissed off about all that.

    I think you missed my point, GMan3. I wasn't passing judgement on their decision to make all the quest dialogue voice-over cut-scenese. I was pointing out that someone who has complained about cut-scenes annoying them will very likely not enjoy SWToR... because of all the cut-scenes.

         I think it may be you who misunderstood MY post.  I was backing you up since I think anyone that does get annoyed with it shouldn't even be playing Themepark MMOs in the first place.

    On some level I agree with you though. Theme-park MMOs aren't really a draw to anyone who doesn't want to be immersed in the stories behind the quests - whether those quests are presented merely in text or with full voice-over / cut-scenes.

     

    <edit>

    Misunderstood one of the quoted replies. Fixed my reply accordingly.

    No godless person can comprehend those minute distinctions
    in doctrine that provide true believers excuse for mayhem.
    -Glen Cook

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