I think that we are missing a big part of the picture here: future technology.
We don't really know what materials like grafen will bring to computers and consoles in the future. Right now is a console old when it is 5 years due to how much better graphics, processors and memory becomes.
Chances are that we in a not to distant future will have a machine that have graphics equal to movies and don't need the constant updating of a PC. If that will be the cases it is not illogical that it will be a general hardware where the difference between a PC and a console just is what kind of hardware you run on it at the moment together with what input device you have plaugged in.
I don't think social and cell phone games really are competing here, they are their own medium and if they compete out anything it will be portable units like PSP and Nintendo DS.
If you think one kind of genre can dominate the market, you are a pretty shallow minded gamer who think himself as the norm of the market.
There will always be a market for motion sensory games, handhelds/touch screen games, mobile platforms, computer games (probably shifting to the MMO genre since it prevents more piracy than just single player, but then again Witcher 2 wants to talk to me), console single player games.
The fact that motion sensor games are still in the niche developement phase, I say this will take a while to hit mainstream gaming.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
PC gaming is coming to an end. The FPS genre continues to shrink into a void of what was. Most FPS games that do release for the PC are mere Console ports.
Genesis AD
AVA
Combat Arms
MAT Online
S4 League
Blackshot
KARMA Online
Operation Flashpoint
Team Fortress 2
Global Agenda
Wolfteam
Quake Live
Any given Quake for that matter
Any give Unreal release
CrimeCraft
Op 7
CSO
Sudden Attack
Special Force
Which of these was a port from console?
Were you talking about past releases? If so, what percent of the older FPS games were ported from console?
One of the only games from that terrible list that I've heard of was Unreal Tournament 3, which was a direct console to pc port. I should know. I won the US 1v1 Cup.
PC gaming is coming to an end. The FPS genre continues to shrink into a void of what was. Most FPS games that do release for the PC are mere Console ports.
Genesis AD
AVA
Combat Arms
MAT Online
S4 League
Blackshot
KARMA Online
Operation Flashpoint
Team Fortress 2
Global Agenda
Wolfteam
Quake Live
Any given Quake for that matter
Any give Unreal release
CrimeCraft
Op 7
CSO
Sudden Attack
Special Force
Which of these was a port from console?
Were you talking about past releases? If so, what percent of the older FPS games were ported from console?
One of the only games from that terrible list that I've heard of was Unreal Tournament 3, which was a direct console to pc port. I should know. I won the US 1v1 Cup.
Congrats on your video game trophy. Sorry to hear that you feel winning a computer game makes you an expert on the game industry.
That aside, eyeswideopen posted a great link on the state of PC gaming a page or two back. I'm curious where mobile gaming fits into all this, as well. Also curious if systems like the DS and the Playstation portables are figured into mobile gamig numbers or console numbers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well upcoming double dipping mmorpg TSW will be released on xbox as well
that don't really win me over , with what will need to be done to cater to xbox players and to simplyfying for pad usage
Well one of biggest thing that shows relatively good future for PC market are developing markets like China , India , Brazil , Turkey , and some countries in Europe, where PC number's are increasing very quickly and are dominating game market.
Europe is also definately more conservative and PC's have better position than in US , Australia, Japan and some of Asian "tigers" where consoles are very strong.
Most influence in PC vs. Console is becasue shift on USA market where PC gaming oddly is relativelly weak compared consoles , but well other markets are growing stronger and stronger so there is hope.
I don't mid playing on consoles but still playing on PC is so much better.
What I think is worrying is that Blizzard with Diablo 3 , made this game so you cannot use ANY mods , since most things are done server-side on SINGLE player game, which is odd , and actually made ma not buying this game. I really hate to be treated like that.
For mmorpg's - well unfortunetally we'll see imho some kind of multi-platform very twitch based even more simplified mmos , whose will be very arcade like , made for pads ,etc
Still I believe that PC market worldwide will be strong enough that there will be AAA mmorpg's made diffrently. Though they might be bit diffrent in some things since they will have to cater more to non US / western Europe tastes since PC market will grow stronger outside of US and all PC games will have to take that into account.
So promote PC playing in US&EU ;p
One more thing what is hurting PC gaming at least in US & some EU countries - PC games are lately released in same prices as console games which is actually outrageus , since game developers selling games on consoles have to give % of each sold game to Sony , Microsoft or Nintendo , in case of PC game there is no thing like that, SO at same time they leech more money from each game sold on PC than on console.
Fortunatelly in my country games on PC are usually (in exception to some Blizzard / Activision games) much cheaper on than console games.
PC gaming will live on, but in what form? They have far fewer titles released than consoles, which are not always better in quality. PC games are better in graphics and in covering certain gaming genres like strategy, but not consistanlty better as games. Also the influence of consoles on PC gaming goes beyond ports.
PC gaming has been influenced by the lower age group of consoles and simplicity of those games. Here game design is not just about the technical issues of porting from a console or making sure a game you design for the PC will play well on a controller. It is about the culture of what makes a popular game; consoles have had a big negative impact here. The latest Civilization was terribly dumbed down, Crysis 2 was extremely linear in comparison to the first one and so on.
PC games have been influenced by juvenile play styles since gaming began in the 70’s. But that influence has increased as the gap in sales widened. Social network gaming is already influencing solo and MMO gaming. Console gamers are already starting to be concerned about the influence of social network gaming on their games. It is happening all over again, software companies find a bigger market and don’t care what ‘gamers’ think.
The other big driver here was the replacement of gaming culture as the driving force behind gaming software companies with business culture. When you replace a companies gaming enthusiast CEO with guys who ran Pepsi or Haagen-Dazs what do you expect to happen?
Software companies want to sell to as many players as possible for the most profit. How long before the story of console gaming is the same as the story of PC gaming? We are in the initial stages now, remember when PC gamers laughed at the graphical quality and simplicity of console games? Well console players look at Facebook games and laugh now, but for how much longer?
I'm still laughing at the quality and simplicity of console games.
It's interesting, no doubt about that, but for an MMO it seems rather impractical.
It seems as quick and responsive as keyboard turning and ability clicking, which is great for casuals/people who want to lose weight, but for anybody who wants to keep a tight DPS rotation or... you know... NOT DIE during PvP, it would do more harm than good.
They have some issues to deal with first. One is that it's solely a Microsoft product and Microsoft isn't going to let it go or quietly allow for competition. Second is the lack of any sort of consistency in the implementation of interfaces. Every game that comes out does their own thing so they can 'stand out'. It ranges from really cool to incredibly frustrating to use. Finally, not everyone is all that keen on voice chat, so some sort of texting ability is necessary and the Kinect is not a great keyboard.
I do see this as the future of computing...but not by itself. A combination of the PS3 or Razer's wireless motion controllers in addition to something like the Kinect seems more functional to me.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think this whole console vs pc debate will solve itself. Soon a console will advertize, "here is a console that you can use as a computer too!" and gamers will think this is something new. Nope, your console just turned into a computer. PC gaming wins.
I think this whole console vs pc debate will solve itself. Soon a console will advertize, "here is a console that you can use as a computer too!" and gamers will think this is something new. Nope, your console just turned into a computer. PC gaming wins.
A PS3 with mouse and keyboard (useful, not the current movelty state of the hardware) would make me a happy camper.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well upcoming double dipping mmorpg TSW will be released on xbox as well
Yeah, just like AoC? They talked a lot about that abut canned it 6 months after they released the PC version, I wouldn't hold my breath for TSW either...
One major flaw in the OP's reasoning is assuming for some reason that motion control can't work on a PC. I've got a wii sensor bar and wiimote connected to my pc right now and the kinect also already works in Windows.
Of course I don't think people are that inclined to do that much moving around anyway while they game, but if they do PC gaming will meet the demand, easily.
Well upcoming double dipping mmorpg TSW will be released on xbox as well
Yeah, just like AoC? They talked a lot about that abut canned it 6 months after they released the PC version, I wouldn't hold my breath for TSW either...
Ragnar already stated that it most likely will stay PC exclusive unless TSW is a huge roaring success ( and we know that ain't happening, too many people have been Funcom'd ). He also stated that if it does go on the 360, it would be an entirely different game than what is on the PC (read: dumbed down, instanced to hell, and graphically inferior).
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Both the PC and the Console are coming to an end. We just need 1gbps internet speeds, and we can move to the cloud.
Then you just need a display device. Something capable of streaming, which very CPU or GPU intensive.
The games will be on a server, and at 1gbps you won't feel any lag at all. Plug in a mouse and keyboard, or a controller, or whatever depending on the game.
PC gaming is coming to an end. The FPS genre continues to shrink into a void of what was. Most FPS games that do release for the PC are mere Console ports. One of the only things that give the PC some real sustain are MMORPGs. However, even MMOs are starting to to make it to the console: DC Universe Online. It makes sense for companies, as the market towards the console crowd is much greater.
In the console realm, motion activated gameplay is the next step, e.g., Wii, Kinect, etc.
Imagine the spawn of a real "hardcore" server, where players are actually forced to physically run in place in order to get your character to move. Imagine.
Motion-Sensory MMOs.
When this becomes the case,i will stop playing games at all.Games,including MMORPGs are meant to sustain your fun.I want to lay back on my chair and play the game not run in place and make different weird gestures so my virtual character can move as well.If i'd want that i'd go and play a real life game.
I think to say PC gaming is dead is like saying journalism is dead. Certain models of business come and go, but the core of entertainment like PC gaming always live longer than their detractors and often transform into another medium. For example, radio dramas declined as television took hold in the US and the world, but dramas never died, they went to television. And when the Internet became a cheap means to transmit audio, audiobooks and podcasts took off even though talk radio is still gaining popularity today. PC gaming today has shifted from being an affair where one goes to a brick and morter store to purchase the latest lased disk, there's Steam, Impulse, CoG, Origin, and other digital distributors to purchase the same games from without the hassle of a drive to Bestbuy or Gamestop.
In fact, I'd argue PC gaming is growing because the marginal cost to produce one more PC is cheaper than producing one more console. Why? Because the components don't functionally change. Consoles are built for TVs and TVs evolved in a weird way where there's two basic standards NTSC and PAL/SECAM. So that means a console has to be made to handle one or the other, that means two different production lines even if the core components (memory, storage, gpu, controller inputs, etc) are the same. The revenue gains are lost from dividing a portion of the factors of production between two competing standards. It's much like the problem that HD-DVD vs Bluray presented. Btw, this same argument applies to smartphones vs consoles. It's cheaper to produce one more smartphone than it does to produce one more console for the same reasons (especially since there's a convergence toward LTE now). If there's any 'threat' to PC gaming it's from PC makers who keep crapping on their customers in much the same way the brick and morter vendors did for supporting PC (and to a lesser extent console) gaming.
Also, motion activated gaming is a fad, it's come in various forms since before even I was born. The real trend in gaming is agumented reality inside and outside of games. Be it smartphone apps that allow you to access some of your game account's features or even offering other conveniences up front or at a premium. Plus, I think gaming will become more mobile in the sense that smartphones are a great way to consume some games than to sit in front of a console or a PC (angry birds and Plants vs Zombies comes to mind).
And this, boys and girls, is how carpol tunnel syndrome for the whole body became possible.
"Dude, why are you in a body cast?"
"My guild decided to raid that new dungeon. You know, the one on top of the mountain?"
"Yeah. But that doesn't explain the body cast."
"I fell off the ledge."
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Console manufacturers and current generation platform holders would probably want all of us to believe that the product they're making really isn't a handicapped PC with a closed software (and usually hardware) model. Taking that into consideration, if anything is going to happen with video gaming in general which could be related to the prophesized end of the PC market, I'm led to believe that eventually we'll reach the stage in which consoles will go the way of the world, and we'll all be streaming data to a screen that's connected to a home network. If only amazing infastructure was a given variable in most countries, though I imagine that's the next stepping stone to a greater realized, technologically advanced international community.
That being said, I play games on a PC because I have freedom of choice, and ultimately have access to a much, much larger library than a majority of succesful or popular consoles combined. Do I really want to wave my arms and physically exert myself when I'm playing games? Fuck no, I have real exercise and applied athletics for that. I'll stick to pressing buttons and moving mice to shoot internet guns, thanks very much.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Lol forcing you to run on the spot for a few hours, swing a sword etc sounds like fun...not.
Xboxes motion system is good and has potential to mae some really good games, but to be successfull such games need to be fun at heart not exausting for the heart!
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Comments
I think that we are missing a big part of the picture here: future technology.
We don't really know what materials like grafen will bring to computers and consoles in the future. Right now is a console old when it is 5 years due to how much better graphics, processors and memory becomes.
Chances are that we in a not to distant future will have a machine that have graphics equal to movies and don't need the constant updating of a PC. If that will be the cases it is not illogical that it will be a general hardware where the difference between a PC and a console just is what kind of hardware you run on it at the moment together with what input device you have plaugged in.
I don't think social and cell phone games really are competing here, they are their own medium and if they compete out anything it will be portable units like PSP and Nintendo DS.
If you think one kind of genre can dominate the market, you are a pretty shallow minded gamer who think himself as the norm of the market.
There will always be a market for motion sensory games, handhelds/touch screen games, mobile platforms, computer games (probably shifting to the MMO genre since it prevents more piracy than just single player, but then again Witcher 2 wants to talk to me), console single player games.
The fact that motion sensor games are still in the niche developement phase, I say this will take a while to hit mainstream gaming.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
One of the only games from that terrible list that I've heard of was Unreal Tournament 3, which was a direct console to pc port. I should know. I won the US 1v1 Cup.
Congrats on your video game trophy. Sorry to hear that you feel winning a computer game makes you an expert on the game industry.
That aside, eyeswideopen posted a great link on the state of PC gaming a page or two back. I'm curious where mobile gaming fits into all this, as well. Also curious if systems like the DS and the Playstation portables are figured into mobile gamig numbers or console numbers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well upcoming double dipping mmorpg TSW will be released on xbox as well
that don't really win me over , with what will need to be done to cater to xbox players and to simplyfying for pad usage
Well one of biggest thing that shows relatively good future for PC market are developing markets like China , India , Brazil , Turkey , and some countries in Europe, where PC number's are increasing very quickly and are dominating game market.
Europe is also definately more conservative and PC's have better position than in US , Australia, Japan and some of Asian "tigers" where consoles are very strong.
Most influence in PC vs. Console is becasue shift on USA market where PC gaming oddly is relativelly weak compared consoles , but well other markets are growing stronger and stronger so there is hope.
I don't mid playing on consoles but still playing on PC is so much better.
What I think is worrying is that Blizzard with Diablo 3 , made this game so you cannot use ANY mods , since most things are done server-side on SINGLE player game, which is odd , and actually made ma not buying this game. I really hate to be treated like that.
For mmorpg's - well unfortunetally we'll see imho some kind of multi-platform very twitch based even more simplified mmos , whose will be very arcade like , made for pads ,etc
Still I believe that PC market worldwide will be strong enough that there will be AAA mmorpg's made diffrently. Though they might be bit diffrent in some things since they will have to cater more to non US / western Europe tastes since PC market will grow stronger outside of US and all PC games will have to take that into account.
So promote PC playing in US&EU ;p
One more thing what is hurting PC gaming at least in US & some EU countries - PC games are lately released in same prices as console games which is actually outrageus , since game developers selling games on consoles have to give % of each sold game to Sony , Microsoft or Nintendo , in case of PC game there is no thing like that, SO at same time they leech more money from each game sold on PC than on console.
Fortunatelly in my country games on PC are usually (in exception to some Blizzard / Activision games) much cheaper on than console games.
I'm still laughing at the quality and simplicity of console games.
It's interesting, no doubt about that, but for an MMO it seems rather impractical.
It seems as quick and responsive as keyboard turning and ability clicking, which is great for casuals/people who want to lose weight, but for anybody who wants to keep a tight DPS rotation or... you know... NOT DIE during PvP, it would do more harm than good.
They have some issues to deal with first. One is that it's solely a Microsoft product and Microsoft isn't going to let it go or quietly allow for competition. Second is the lack of any sort of consistency in the implementation of interfaces. Every game that comes out does their own thing so they can 'stand out'. It ranges from really cool to incredibly frustrating to use. Finally, not everyone is all that keen on voice chat, so some sort of texting ability is necessary and the Kinect is not a great keyboard.
I do see this as the future of computing...but not by itself. A combination of the PS3 or Razer's wireless motion controllers in addition to something like the Kinect seems more functional to me.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think this whole console vs pc debate will solve itself. Soon a console will advertize, "here is a console that you can use as a computer too!" and gamers will think this is something new. Nope, your console just turned into a computer. PC gaming wins.
A PS3 with mouse and keyboard (useful, not the current movelty state of the hardware) would make me a happy camper.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah, just like AoC? They talked a lot about that abut canned it 6 months after they released the PC version, I wouldn't hold my breath for TSW either...
One major flaw in the OP's reasoning is assuming for some reason that motion control can't work on a PC. I've got a wii sensor bar and wiimote connected to my pc right now and the kinect also already works in Windows.
Of course I don't think people are that inclined to do that much moving around anyway while they game, but if they do PC gaming will meet the demand, easily.
That's only becuase the device was so difficult to use, you had to be Tony Hawk to actually play the game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
And maybe you'll have to a hero to actually play an MMO that way too
.
Ragnar already stated that it most likely will stay PC exclusive unless TSW is a huge roaring success ( and we know that ain't happening, too many people have been Funcom'd ). He also stated that if it does go on the 360, it would be an entirely different game than what is on the PC (read: dumbed down, instanced to hell, and graphically inferior).
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Both the PC and the Console are coming to an end. We just need 1gbps internet speeds, and we can move to the cloud.
Then you just need a display device. Something capable of streaming, which very CPU or GPU intensive.
The games will be on a server, and at 1gbps you won't feel any lag at all. Plug in a mouse and keyboard, or a controller, or whatever depending on the game.
The only thing we can say for sure is that the bigger the screen the better.
Beyond this, who knows? - for example, the 'next step' might be 3D games, and it all depends who can implement it the best.
When this becomes the case,i will stop playing games at all.Games,including MMORPGs are meant to sustain your fun.I want to lay back on my chair and play the game not run in place and make different weird gestures so my virtual character can move as well.If i'd want that i'd go and play a real life game.
I think to say PC gaming is dead is like saying journalism is dead. Certain models of business come and go, but the core of entertainment like PC gaming always live longer than their detractors and often transform into another medium. For example, radio dramas declined as television took hold in the US and the world, but dramas never died, they went to television. And when the Internet became a cheap means to transmit audio, audiobooks and podcasts took off even though talk radio is still gaining popularity today. PC gaming today has shifted from being an affair where one goes to a brick and morter store to purchase the latest lased disk, there's Steam, Impulse, CoG, Origin, and other digital distributors to purchase the same games from without the hassle of a drive to Bestbuy or Gamestop.
In fact, I'd argue PC gaming is growing because the marginal cost to produce one more PC is cheaper than producing one more console. Why? Because the components don't functionally change. Consoles are built for TVs and TVs evolved in a weird way where there's two basic standards NTSC and PAL/SECAM. So that means a console has to be made to handle one or the other, that means two different production lines even if the core components (memory, storage, gpu, controller inputs, etc) are the same. The revenue gains are lost from dividing a portion of the factors of production between two competing standards. It's much like the problem that HD-DVD vs Bluray presented. Btw, this same argument applies to smartphones vs consoles. It's cheaper to produce one more smartphone than it does to produce one more console for the same reasons (especially since there's a convergence toward LTE now). If there's any 'threat' to PC gaming it's from PC makers who keep crapping on their customers in much the same way the brick and morter vendors did for supporting PC (and to a lesser extent console) gaming.
Also, motion activated gaming is a fad, it's come in various forms since before even I was born. The real trend in gaming is agumented reality inside and outside of games. Be it smartphone apps that allow you to access some of your game account's features or even offering other conveniences up front or at a premium. Plus, I think gaming will become more mobile in the sense that smartphones are a great way to consume some games than to sit in front of a console or a PC (angry birds and Plants vs Zombies comes to mind).
And this, boys and girls, is how carpol tunnel syndrome for the whole body became possible.
"Dude, why are you in a body cast?"
"My guild decided to raid that new dungeon. You know, the one on top of the mountain?"
"Yeah. But that doesn't explain the body cast."
"I fell off the ledge."
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
i have never been a fan of motion gaming. when i play video games i NEED to feel getting fat...
when i game i am on a couch or a very lazy arm chair (if i could afford it i would get the one that massages you and has heat pads)
the most ill do is point a gun to the screen (duck hunt anyone? :P)
disclaimer: i am a coach/personnal trainer for a living and probably in better shape than most of you (no offence intended)
Console manufacturers and current generation platform holders would probably want all of us to believe that the product they're making really isn't a handicapped PC with a closed software (and usually hardware) model. Taking that into consideration, if anything is going to happen with video gaming in general which could be related to the prophesized end of the PC market, I'm led to believe that eventually we'll reach the stage in which consoles will go the way of the world, and we'll all be streaming data to a screen that's connected to a home network. If only amazing infastructure was a given variable in most countries, though I imagine that's the next stepping stone to a greater realized, technologically advanced international community.
That being said, I play games on a PC because I have freedom of choice, and ultimately have access to a much, much larger library than a majority of succesful or popular consoles combined. Do I really want to wave my arms and physically exert myself when I'm playing games? Fuck no, I have real exercise and applied athletics for that. I'll stick to pressing buttons and moving mice to shoot internet guns, thanks very much.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I'm going to reply to this thread with just this:
Battlefield 3
Xboxes motion system is good and has potential to mae some really good games, but to be successfull such games need to be fun at heart not exausting for the heart!
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981