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Dynamic Event system, alternative path to endgame gameplay
MMO.Maverick
Member CommonPosts: 7,619
Endgame content, the term to describe the activities that you can do at max level when you're done with leveling. Since the dawn of MMO's, dungeons and raiding has been a significant part of that endgame content in a considerable contingent of MMORPG's.
GW2 won't know the currently seen raiding, a fact that makes many GW2 fans rejoice. However, the problem for which raiding was provided as solution remains: players will always consume content faster than devs can provide it, so in order to keep players entertained and something to do, designers are bound to implement repetitive activities for players to chew on after the first 200-300 hours of gameplay.
The way I see it, only elements like the following can enrichen the repetitive nature that's bound to come up in content:
- aspects of (random) unpredictability: if unexpected things happen in common activities, mobs that suddenly behave completely different, a cave that appears that wasn't there the 10 times you walked that route before, you getting ambushed in a place that was considered safe, all those things can help spice up the otherwise repetitiveness of activities. Especially if it's not 100% random but influenced by factors that players can grow to discern (for example, usually fairly peaceful mobs becoming far more agressive, powerful and erratic when it's night or when a storm is raging, but not every night and not every storm, or an end boss that reacts differently based on the number of healers or long distance nukers in a group, but not every time differently or the same different behaviour)
- players are the content: as said, devs can never develop as fast as players can consume it. But what they can do is integrate gameplay mechanics that make use of players to generate content for other users. The beauty of other players namely is that they both have a predictable aspect as well as a random element to them, both of which you need for your content to be interesting.
For PvP it's easy to have players provide gameplay and content for other players, however for PvE that's a lot more difficult. That's why I think that Dynamic Events deliver a good foundation for player affected PvE content: actions by players that affect what and how other players will enjoy the available PvE content that's provided by devs.
Also for the endgame content.
I can't say for sure how max level Dynamic Events will turn out in GW2, but what I do know is that the DE system has a solid base and potential for creating a great alternative for the PvE endgame content as we've seen so far.
Why?
For the simple, but important reason of the global, open world nature of Dynamic Events in combination with its event trigger system.
This can make several things possible that couldn't be done with traditional raid content. Now events can be global, can trigger global effects and don't need to be restricted to a certain period of time.
To give a few examples:
- attacking one of the strongholds of the Elder Dragons and penetrating its defences could trigger the release of titans or flocks of lesser dragons to assault the main cities in that region, maybe even a racial capital.
- or how about if Orr gets breached the sky turns dark and players can hear thunder and see dark flames rise high in the sky a la Lord of the Rings? Which could alert other players that something big is happening, and that their help may be needed to turn tides.
- Global events can be made thus that players need to be successful in conquering and holding several places of power all over the world with parties that are raid size and larger, in order to have a special zone opened and unlocked for a period of time.
- or it could be like that players en masse conquer a heavily fortified stronghold of the dragons or their allies, and only when they're able to hold it for 24 consecutive hours, fighting off hordes of enemy mobs, wave after wave all the time, only then will the next stage of the max level major event kick off. Make it so that sometimes end bosses like dragons or Destroyers pop up a la the siege of Troy where sometimes heroes of both sides dominated the battle field, and it can be something epic. Also, it would mean that a larger part of a server population needed to collaborate to get things done instead of just the max 40-50 people that can be in a raid.
- it could also mean that guilds and players have to decide sometimes what'll be more important, participating in an important global event that's in full effect on their server or to push forward in the World vs World warfare that's going on, adding a larger scale strategic effect to both PvP and PvE gameplay.
Again, we have no idea what ANet will have designed for the max level Dynamic Events. But the system in itself has the potential to far surpass what's possible with raid dungeons, if not for the game as it'll be at launch then for the expansions that will follow.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
i hate raids and normal 5/6 man instances they are sooo booring, hope all its in the world pve and pvp , nothing better than zones or invasions full of nasty elite mobs and giant dragons on world game, instance=fail
I agree wholeheartedly that dynamic events have tremendous potential to deliver compelling content both during the leveling experience and endgame. Unfortunately, we haven't heard much along the lines of the ideas you suggested yet. So sure, we can say "that doesn't mean they won't be there at release!" But we can also say "that doesn't mean they will!" We mostly just hear about centaurs attacking villages. We simply don't know yet. We can just theorize about the system's potential.
I really hope that the huge dragons will appear "randomly" anywhere on the map.
Even maybe starting to attack one of the big cities and every player of that race will have to go there to defend their home city. Would'nt that be so epic? Like this huge event at the home city where 100s of players would have to pitc in for succes and awesome rewards.
In wow, all the servers are the same. In SWG, player made towns made servers different from a certain point of view. What if Dynamic Events (DE) could alter a server world such that no two servers are identical? I am talking about zone or even multizone scale DE. Perhaps in on one server the result is a busy castle with guilds crafting goods to sell, on another the castle is in ruins as a series of dungeons to explore, on another, there is no castle at all. IMO, that would be kind of cool.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
GW1 and GW2 have a very different approach to endgame as compared to other MMOs. For example, GW1 had level 20 essentially be where you start the harder gameplay, making level 20 the beginning of things to come. Max level didn't mean anything because everyone is (or should be) max level. Everything was end game content.
GW2 has its sidekicking system, events (which are repeatable), WvWvW PvP, and dungeons which are meant to provide repeatable content that is more challenging. MMO.Maverick is correct in that the lack of information about the max level end game zones (like Orr) means that there could be more content for players who like a challenge than we currently know about. in the end, the entire game is end game content, just like it is with GW1 (sort of).
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Raiding isn't a solution to keeping people playing longer, it is just another instance. The only difference is you can have lots of people. If people are worried about the lack of raiding in GW2, they should realize that elite events are like raids, but far more open to players who wish to join in or leave when they wish to (and they aren't as long, which is good for players who don't have the time to invest in raiding anyways).
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hopefully, "endgame content" isn't something we have to worry about with GW2.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Speaking of Elder end game dragons......
A tooth of Jormag the ice elder dragon. How huge are these things going to be?
We've seen a video with Tequatl the Sunless. I remember watching a video interview where a developer was asked how big Tequatl was on a scale from 1 to 10. I believe he said 4.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
So big yet only a baby!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Watched a Video where they said the Shatterer was small by comparison to an Elder Dragon. Like comapring a Lion to a mouse I think they said.
My theme song.
They also said that they had to be inventive with certain design limitations to manage the mechanics of the Shatterer dragon in an open world area, so I think those problems will be even larger if you have an Elder Dragon that's many times the size of a Shatterer dragon freely moving around in an area, design and coding wise.
I foresee that we'll see all kinds of varied implementations of the Dynamic Events system pop up, as soon as the ANet teams have grown comfortable with its workings in heavy player population settings and they've learnt the reach as well as hurdles or limitations of their systems. Just like with each campaign/expansion in GW, there'll be new mechanics being introduced in follow up expansions after launch.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Why even have an endgame?
What's the freaking rush to get to the endgame?
A game that provides enough content to keep me from the endgame is a damned-good-game.
Everyone wants to be max level, I get it. Everyone wants uber gear, I get it. Everyone wants something to do, wait... what do you mean, 'Something to do?'
Seriously, I really want to max my character so I can become a high level instance grinder?
If I want to grind at endgame, max level, etc... I'd go and buy a box of number two pencils and sharpen them to the eraser's end. Thereby reaching endgame as fast as possible and having the worlds sharpest non-sensible tool.
Nothing against you, OP... you, afterall, are giving ideas and I am just raging on the whole endgame thingy.
We are sheep being led to the slaughter, paying through our nose with blood for something that seriously has no bearing on how I intend to enjoy MMOGs now and in the future. After capping three main classes in RIFT, I realized that I was still addicted to levelling. The endgame was repititious jargon, at best. But, without rifts, RIFT would be dead in the water.
In an effort to keep pace with hard-crore-die-hard players, the whole instance grind thing is the best way to go. However, after 1234 thousand fustrating moments, I do not care to repeat a task 4000 times to reach a level of utopia. I'd rather low-crawl through the forest with a hippo on my back blind folded with white knees as if I were praying on flour than to rinse and repeat an already dead feature such as instancing for gear, profit or noterierty.
Endgame...Sch-mendgame!!!
"Gimme what I want and I'll go away"
They can ride the variation a long way assuming that they are popular enough.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I like how they defined dungeons into Storytelling and Explorable. They also mentioned having "random encounters" happening in the explorable mode that also has more than one way to finish it.
The DE system just appears to be the way to go. One of the things I burnt out on with other not-to-be-named mmo's was quest hubs.
Both my play experiences at PAX last year and this year were fun. I had a blast playing, ad hoc grouping was natural. I just wish I had a chance to see WvWvW. But that is what beta will be for.
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
I don't quite agree with you there.
Instances are nice under the right circomstances. It is fun to join up with some friends and do a dungeon or 2, instances just get annoying when they take up too much of the game and make the game feel underpopulated.
A game should have a bit of content for small tight groups of friends and guildies, I had great time in instances even though more people usually increase the fun.
15-20 dungons and a mostly none instanced game is perfect for me.
Raids on the other hand just gets too much about waiting for people and too less about gaming. But that is not my big problem with raids either, my big problem with any kind of instances is that you have to repeat them so many times that they stop being fun and just feels like working. GW2 is partly fixing that by having different paths in their dungeons.
I will do dungeons in GW2, at least every one of them once (probably more often since I usually help guildies out), if it will be more times depends on how flashy the gear is and if a certain title I want demands me to do them more than once.
Since you can manually and for free change servers I don't think it will be a huge problem. Unlike WAR will people move away free and easy from the underpopulated servers that can't handle doing any DEs.
Or if you mean popular enough to afford to adding fresh content that is not really something I worry about. Far from all people hyping the game will play it but I would be surprised if fewer people play it than GW1 and it still have a fairly large population. It is far from unlikely that some people will get fired after launch of course but I don't think it will be as bad as it was for Mythic even in worst case scenario.
Imagine an openworld dungeon filled with dynamic content....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
GW2 will have both underground and underwater open world places with DEs in.
The term dungeon has become another word for instance in MMO terms, so people assume all underground tunnels and ruins will be instanced but that isn't really the truth here, and "dungeons" can be outside as well, but will still be instances.
The less instances we see the better. I'm all for an instance free MMO, one where huge open world allows for a party to go out and explore without worrying about others interfering all the time.
There's no world big enough that you can go somewhere with a small group of people to tackle a tough quest, and not have a very good chance of walking smack into a bunch of others on the very same, or even completely different, mission. Always takes the whole mystery and suspense out of things when you're constantly being reminded that your journey is completely and utterly commonplace. It's like stumbling across a beautiful vista atop some distant mountain, then hearing the crinkle of candy bar wrappers underfoot from the 10,000 others who've already been there. In a word, deflating.
I like instances because for a short time, I'm allowed to suspend my disbelief and get the feeling that I'm doing something important or worthwhile, without some yattering hooligans there cripple the whole sense of discovery.
Some key elements of the DE based content approach seem to have been left out here.
DEs aren't just glorified Public Quests. They don't go through a few stages and just repeat again in fifteen minutes. Some Dynamic Event Chains may take days or weeks to play out and they don't advance on their own. They also don't exist in isolation. Many DEs effect the state of other DEs and the effects cascade through out the zone and maybe even the entire game world. Many Dynamic Events even change the physical world itself. Structures get built or destroyed and it's quite possible that some events could indeed uncover entrances to content you wouldn't find otherwise.
Because some DE chains do interact with other chains, there could be DEs that don't even "pop" for weeks or longer on servers where the proper combination of events haven't transpired in the proper ways. It won't be easy for even a dedicated group of people to track the various states of Events in a game zone and determine and publish a flow chart for particular long term outcomes. It should take months or longer for database sites to even get a handle on the majority of DEs and their interactions and same may take forever to completely nail down.
Every time you visit a zone, it will be in a different state than when you visited it before.
Why is that so important? Because a key element to DEs and GW2 "End Game" is the fact that the game scales you down automatically for lower level content. Even at level 79, you can go and meaningfully interact with content much lower than your level. In a game where you could spend days or weeks in a single zone and always have things play out differently, experiencing the zone in a different way, that really becomes a big deal.
It's more than just re-experiencing the dynamic changes in a zone over time. Each zone is likely to have some fairly epic Dynamic Events that only occur when all the DE states are perfectly aligned. When some "once in a blue moon" epic DE occurs in a zone, that's going to be a big draw for a lot of people, even those who have completely blown past the level range for the zone.
Not only is access to all the Dynamic Events in the game, with a meaningful level of challenge and reward (I've covered loot scaling in other posts on DEs), a big part of what's available once you reach the cap, but there will be epic events that will occur all over the world from time to time and their level will be irrelavent to the person who is at the level cap. They will all be able to provide enjoyable and epic experiences.
Of course, this system benefits more than just the higher level characters. Now, higher level toons can not swoop into lower level events and trivialize them with their awesome power. Everyone gets to meaningfully participate with out anyone playing the spoiler.
In GW2, you don't spend the entire leveling process playing the game one way, only to then play an entirely different game once you reach the level cap.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Calling these adventure areas "dungeons" is a bit of a misnomer, since not all of them are underground
Source: http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dungeons/into-the-dungeons/
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
I forget which convention it was, but Colin decided to explain to people a different(and in my opinion, a more interesting) event. It sounded pretty cool. I need to find it again.
You mean the Thief fighting the pirates? Or the DE towards the end of the underwater video in the pirate base?
Thief video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUcGBL56Ng
Underwater: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je0mT7AHKqI
TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!
Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!
Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues!
“For instance, if you fight the Pirate Queen at her stronghold, with a small party, you’ll face off against her small army of undead skeletons. But if you want to gather a group of hundreds of players, then you’ll need to storm her base from the front, take down her towers and board a ship that has magical cannons that you can fire at her base, before taking on her army.”
http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/24/guild-wars-2-to-feature-over-1500-dynamic-events/
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I agree with what Fiontar says, but I also want to add that the game is huge.
I've linked this before, but in this video their lead content designer says he can't imagine how many hundreds of hours it would take to do everything in their demo, and the demo is only a small part of the whole game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wCYu_IfGME&feature=player_detailpage#t=758s
Before, just based on that it's probably approximately 100 hours to level to cap and 5 races, that's 6 months of content right there if you play 20 hours per week.
That doesn't even take into account the emphasis on replayability (3x personal story options per race, different events in world when you go back, adding new events for free, random events in dungeons). Or PVP, or achievements, collecting traits exploration, crafting, or simply the fact that the game has an insane scale (it probably takes a half hour or more just to explore a capital city)
I know that doesn't mean that people won't eventually reach a point where having to replay content is a concern, but it seems clear to me that this issue is way down the road. By all indications, they'll have already have released expansion content by the time any but the most extreme hardcore players run out of things to do without repeating.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007