OP, people want a well made sandbox. They are not going to be happy with a pile of shite just because it is a sandbox. EVE is perhaps the only quality product there and given (up until recently and only in a limited form) you are restricted to a ship, that is not going to float typical "avatar centric" players now is it.
The rest are either highly pvp centric (i.e. a sandpit with pvp focus like Darkfall) or a bugged pile of crap (also to an extent like Darkfall)* or not even sandboxes.
To be honest I just want UO 2.0, with a classic rule option so yeah I'm not blind just deluded lol.
* I love the game, well it's potential, and hope 2.0 sorts it out, i'm not bashing it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
More seasoned MMO gamers have higher expectations of quality, most of them have actually played titles where the devs were actually allowed/interested in pouring their souls into the creation and maintenance. Look at the shit that is out today, even some of these currently released sandbox MMOs, and look for signs of legitimate caring amongst the developers. You won't find it.
The point is .... as an old schooler myself...is that there arent any games to rival the depth and things to do like old Everquest had anymore.
And the reason why is that it all about levelling....be it a themepark or a sandbox...it all still comes down to levels. Anyone who has played Darkfall or MO will tell you that there was no difference in those games than class/level games other than in class/level games you have more choice.
Whatever game i pick up these days, all i seem to find are levels.
In Everquest there was a huge grind, but there was also danger, community, crafting that was a huge grind but rewarding with time spent. There was adventure and exploration...finding hidden zones ( anyone remember finding Dalnirs crypt?).
And please dont give me the rose tinted glasses comment as you will find my level 30 Char playing on the fippy darkpaw progression server as we speak. And guess what! i am loving it all over again ( cough...yes ok thats because i got 45 days free...but i am resubbing friday as it runs out then )
What we are looking for is something that will deliver promises friend. We hear it all the time and then buy and sub a game only to find it's nothing like they promised
The point is .... as an old schooler myself...is that there arent any games to rival the depth and things to do like old Everquest had anymore.
And the reason why is that it all about levelling....be it a themepark or a sandbox...it all still comes down to levels. Anyone who has played Darkfall or MO will tell you that there was no difference in those games than class/level games other than in class/level games you have more choice.
Whatever game i pick up these days, all i seem to find are levels.
In Everquest there was a huge grind, but there was also danger, community, crafting that was a huge grind but rewarding with time spent. There was adventure and exploration...finding hidden zones ( anyone remember finding Dalnirs crypt?).
And please dont give me the rose tinted glasses comment as you will find my level 30 Char playing on the fippy darkpaw progression server as we speak. And guess what! i am loving it all over again ( cough...yes ok thats because i got 45 days free...but i am resubbing friday as it runs out then )
What we are looking for is something that will deliver promises friend. We hear it all the time and then buy and sub a game only to find it's nothing like they promised
Agree...and may be resubbing to EQ myself here in the next couple of days.
I just want a themepark or hybrid that offers even the slighest bit of freedom. The open expansive world of vanguard with some more abilities to change the landscape. When there is only one potential hybrid choice on the horizon thats not enough.
The majority of "sandbox" MMOs listed by the OP are either ridden with FFA PvP, lack several features, are extremely unpolished and buggy, or are only very weakly sandbox games with a heavier themepark influence.
I've yet to see an MMO come close to what Ultima Online achieved in depth and breadth of gamepaly and freedom, and that game is well over a decade old.
Have you played Maginobi or Vanguard? Neither of the two are in ANY way sandbox.
Vanguard is very similar to Everquest; one of the first big themepark games.
Not that it is a bad game; I loved vanguard (up until level 50 then it is a bad game).
I put the disclaimer that people wouldn't agree it is sandbox but this topic is also about the old school players who claim they are no making games like EQ 1 anymore.The whole point of this topic was to show that industry is still making sandboxes and deep rpg mmo games but they are being made by indie companies and not by huge companies who goals are to make profits.
AoC,Aion,Lotor failed because they have not grown the population,they have gone down population but in terms of profit they made lots of money at the beginning,they have stablize game the by downsizing working staff and servers and are making a profit now.I am sure Warhammer and vanguard is making a profit it will never make back the 100 million it took make but i am sure ever year it makes more money that cost to run it.EA,NCsoft,Blizzard, and SoE can take loss because they have other profiable games to cover them.Warhammer and Vanguard have some value because they still make money.
You see these topics the industry is ignore my gamestyle not making any games and you would swear that after Ultima,Shadowbane,Asheron Call,EQ 1 that no games where made,Not only have not stop make these games they are good bit of them and new good ones are on the way.
Instead of making 11 million why sandboxes or EQ1 was awesome threads make 11 million Archage,Dawntide,etc threads praise the making of new sandbox games.I am not saying to settle for garbage indie games,Mortal Online was one the worst game i have played and i have played piece of crap that was Alganon launch but they are some solid games like Ryzom and Fallen earth that are worth a look and they are games like Archage that coming out.The Industry has not forgetten you.
Okay, there are sandboxes out there, but if, from the beginning or a few months in, those sandboxes aren't worth whatever their asking price is, then they might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned. For example, Entropia is a huge game with a lot of elements I love to see in an MMO, but it's not worth the asking price because it's well over $30/mo to play the way I would like to play. Actually, it would probably end up being well over $60 now, given the new content they've added. Therefore, it exists, but might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned.
I want my money's worth when I buy anything. Discretionary purchases are the one area of the market where buyers have real power, because we can do without. Guess what? This buyer is now doing without an MMO sub. I'd rather spend the money on other things. Until and unless something measures up to my exacting standards, I will continue to go without a sub.
I'm utterly disgusted with what's on offer of late and annoyed at how much I have spent in the past year trying to find something that clicks with me for more than a few weeks or even a couple of months. I want an MMO to settle in with for a few years, one that gives me my money's worth in entertainment (even if I were incredibly wealthy, I would not spend massive amounts of money in a game like Entropia as a form of entertainment because I don't consider it a good bargain and wouldn't want to encourage those kind of prices, and as for it being a business enterprise, I would consider it far too risky an investment).
Nothing out there in MMO land, be it themepark, sandbox, hybrid, or other, meets my standards. And as the one holding the wallet and waiting to spend some money, my standards are what determines whether there are, in fact, any sandbox MMOs, or any other MMOs, out there or not. Right now, the world is devoid of MMOs worth paying for.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Mortal Online (FFA PVP),Fallen Earth (Sci-fi), Darkfall (FFA PVP), Earthrise (FFA PVP, Sci-fi), Vanguard (not a sandbox), Ryzom (has already been shot down once), EvE (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Wurm (I've heard the game has performance issues), Perpetum (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Maginobi (never heard of it will have to try it), Xyson (FFA PVP)
Sandbox gaming being made
Archage (FFA PVP), Dawntide (FFA PVP), The Repouplation (will have to research more), Origins (has a lot of promise but still early in development), Embers of Careus (never heard of this one will have to research it more)
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies.
Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
Archage,Dawntide,The Repouplation,Origins,Embers of Careus
I am pretty sure i forgot some but the point remains the same,Complainers have selective vision when "they say omg they aren't making any sandboxes" or "omg they aren't making like they use" which is BS.
Here is the catch one game on the two list,Vanguard(which some people won't call a sandbox but is probably the most old school game) is made by support by major company all the rest are Indie games.All the people who complain about Sandbox games or "MMO aren't same" this what they are really saying
"I want major companies to spend 100 million on a game that will probably be a niche game,I am ignoring all the small games with the playing style i want because i want huge game support by big company"
I understand it somewhat but does not make any sense i see people going WoW style game suck and keep trying them,Then i see them say i wish there was a game that has a large open world(vanguard),deep game play(Vanguard) interesting classes(vanguard),great crafting(Vanguard) good player housing(vanguard).There is a game on the market that has everything you want why aren't you playing it? The funny thing is i would bet money if SOE closed Vanguard,wait six months released a new game called Ranguard which looks mighty familiar to Vanguard,that game would be huge success.
They are make games you like they are indie games not by companies so they have lesser resources which normal mean inferior graphics but playstyle you are looking for right now.Will you ever get one of those 100 million games to be a sandbox,Maybe 38 studios is making a game they made sandbox rpg single player game their mmo might be influnence by that,EverQuest Next might go back to more of its roots,You might get the perfect storm of IP and gamestyle like SWG before the change.
Please stop being blind though They never stop making sandboxes or strong virtual world mmos,They just became minority instead of majority when Ultima,EQ and others rule the market and they are now being made by small companies who can afford to risk to make a niche game.The mmo market is so big today they is more than enough room for a free to play games,sub games,Sandboxes game,theme park games,Action mmo,tab targeting mmo,etc..MMO should not be one style of game or one style of pricing...I am curious to what going to happen when Archage comes out which will have great graphics with huge budget..You will here people say it is not sandboxy enough...I don't like Asian art style.I am not saying to settle for bad games but please stop pretending that you are not being present with enough of fair choices of gaming for your game style.
You forgot Istaria. And Vanguard is not a sandbox at all.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Archage,Dawntide,The Repouplation,Origins,Embers of Careus
If you consider Vanguard a Sandbox game, you also have to consider WoW, EQ2, LoTRO and AoC sandbox games and i don't think you want to make that argument. Vanguard is most certainly a theme park game. It's nearly identical in gameplay design to EQ2 and WoW, just with a few mechanic differences that all games have. The reason I am not playing vanguard is that - aside from diplomacy - i'm getting everything i would get from Vanguard in my current MMO (EQ2) and unlike Vanguard, EQ2 didn't ignore 10 years of technological progress for the sake of a retarded designer's "vision" - which mainly consisted of making a game that was outdated because he missed his chance in a previous job.
Fallen Earth is more of a hybrid, it has pretty much all the themepark elements of a game like EQ2, but also has a lot of freeform stuff that is usually associated with sandboxes. FE's problem was lack of direction for endgame. It had neither a building/exploration endgame common in sandboxes, nor the raiding/gearing endgame associated with themeparks. I really liked this game, but the low budget was also extremely evident.
You've also left out what is arguable the best sandbox made - SWG. SWG and EVE being the only "major" sandbox titles. And I think most people are quite aware of them. SWG was nearly destroyed by NGE, so it's not an option. And EVE, well, EVE is entirely too PvP-oriented for me. I've played it for months and just keep running into the fact that to REALLY enjoy EVE you have to PvP, and PvP isn't my thing. (The PvP thing is also true about at least several other games on your list - Mortal, Darkfall and Perpetuum. I'm not sure about others.)
The complaint from me isn't that "there are no sandbox games on the market", it's more that "we've had these amazing innovations from games like SWG, EVE and Ryzom and yet the industry seems to have learned absolutely nothing and is not building on these amazing concepts".
EQ2 & WoW came out years ago and then after them LoTRO, Vanguard, AoC, WAR, TR, AoC, RIFT and now SWTOR have all been created with the general concept of "being a better WoW/EQ2". So for people that really enjoyed WoW/EQ2, lots has been built on concepts from those games. Well, where the f**k is my "better SWG"? where is my "better EVE"? where is my "better Ryzom"? That's what i'm NOT seeing on the market.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I guess I don't really understand the "sandbox" term. I have never felt that vanguard selected any path for me. I think it has paths, but so many that you always feel adrift perhaps. It is by far the best mmo I have played since the early days of eq1.
No, the OP pretty much nailed it, we see the current crop of sandbox style games, have played many of them (VG is not a sandbox btw, just a deeper than average themepark) and now want something more.
Half baked Indie titles aren't going to cut it, nor am I convinced that we have nothing to look forward to on the horizon.
I figure eventually enough gamers will tire of the standard theme park model and one or two major devs will get smart enough to take a bit of a risk.
In the meantime, expect me to bitch about it.
BTW, I love a good theme park style game, just not when it copies so many elements of WOW that I feel like I never really left Azeroth.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Venger Originally posted by luckturtz Sandbox games out Mortal Online (FFA PVP),Fallen Earth (Sci-fi), Darkfall (FFA PVP), Earthrise (FFA PVP, Sci-fi), Vanguard (not a sandbox), Ryzom (has already been shot down once), EvE (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Wurm (I've heard the game has performance issues), Perpetum (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Maginobi (never heard of it will have to try it), Xyson (FFA PVP) Sandbox gaming being made Archage (FFA PVP), Dawntide (FFA PVP), The Repouplation (will have to research more), Origins (has a lot of promise but still early in development), Embers of Careus (never heard of this one will have to research it more)
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies. Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
ArcheAge seems to be going more in the direction of Eve, with safe zones, PK penalties, etc. In theory, there should be a fairly vibrant, non-pvp economy and game to support and go with the FFA PvP side of the game. They seem to be trying to give players a lot of choices, which sounds good, no matter what kind of game you're making.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Terranah Wow, when I read the OP's opening post, I got a flashback to my imaginary youth.
Me: Mom, I'm hungery and there's nothing to eat.
Mom: What do you mean there's nothing to eat. There's brocoli, spinach, cauliflower, eggplant...
Me: I want something with some meat.
Mom: There's two month old rancid meat with maggots in the bottom compartment.
Me: That's gross.
Mom: Well then you must not be that hungery if your so picky.
Hehe, nice one! But i guess your mom did not try to sell that rancid meat even for a penny and did not whine bcs nobody buys it?
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Mortal Online (FFA PVP),Fallen Earth (Sci-fi), Darkfall (FFA PVP), Earthrise (FFA PVP, Sci-fi), Vanguard (not a sandbox), Ryzom (has already been shot down once), EvE (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Wurm (I've heard the game has performance issues), Perpetum (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Maginobi (never heard of it will have to try it), Xyson (FFA PVP)
Sandbox gaming being made
Archage (FFA PVP), Dawntide (FFA PVP), The Repouplation (will have to research more), Origins (has a lot of promise but still early in development), Embers of Careus (never heard of this one will have to research it more)
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies.
Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
ArcheAge seems to be going more in the direction of Eve, with safe zones, PK penalties, etc. In theory, there should be a fairly vibrant, non-pvp economy and game to support and go with the FFA PvP side of the game. They seem to be trying to give players a lot of choices, which sounds good, no matter what kind of game you're making.
If builders and crafters don't have a completely safe place to build and craft, it's not going to do well in the west. By safe, I mean safe from your own faction and safe from any enemy faction members.
If it does do well without real safety for builders and crafters, remind me of this thread, and name a song with the theme, "I was wrong", and I'll sing it. Then the neighbors will have me arrested for disturbing the peace, cruel and unusual punishment, and possibly damaging the environment and hunting without a license.
But I don't think I have to worry. I think I'm right about this one. If it isn't safe to build and craft all or the vast majority of the available homes and items somewhere in the game, it's going to fail.
Dawntide, if I remember correctly and unless it has changed, also does not permit the building of structures in the single, rather small safe area provided. Therefore, it will also fail.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Wow, when I read the OP's opening post, I got a flashback to my imaginary youth.
Me: Mom, I'm hungery and there's nothing to eat.
Mom: What do you mean there's nothing to eat. There's brocoli, spinach, cauliflower, eggplant...
Me: I want something with some meat.
Mom: There's two month old rancid meat with maggots in the bottom compartment.
Me: That's gross.
Mom: Well then you must not be that hungery if your so picky.
Brocoli,spinach and eggplants are good for you.Should have listen to your mom
In all serious the point that style of gaming that start the industry is now niche gaming,Instead of big companies making them indie companies are making those style of game.Complaining that industry does not make them is not trueand expection for them to make big budget games for niche gaming is silly but
RTS is fairly big and one game name Warcraft got a called Dota,It was niche for awhile until somebody realize that players would enjoy it.So they made LoL which has like millions of players and now you are seeing more MOBA.So i am not discounting niche genre it just seems that Old school and Sandboxplayer don't realize they are a niche,Just like myself who loves a good action mmo or good MMOFPS.
At some point a company will realize that if a make a good niche game like Gears of War or League of Legends then i can make lots of money but understand till then that it is a niche and game like Call of Duty and Starcraft will probably rule.You guys are like people screaming for TPS and MOBA in genre that will always be dominated by FPS and RTS.I am not saying not complain about and for games you want but realize you are small part of the genre.
Also and yes it means support crappy or average Sandbox from time to time.If you can rush out support crappy themepark you probably won't like ,You can support average sandbox and hope the industry takes notice of this little game or devs use the money to get better.Support Archage so the industry can see that Sandbox can get big numbers too that is just a thought.If you can trick yourself into liking SWTOR you can trick yourself into liking Archage.
Archage,Dawntide,The Repouplation,Origins,Embers of Careus
I am pretty sure i forgot some but the point remains the same,Complainers have selective vision when "they say omg they aren't making any sandboxes" or "omg they aren't making like they use" which is BS.
Here is the catch one game on the two list,Vanguard(which some people won't call a sandbox but is probably the most old school game) is made by support by major company all the rest are Indie games.All the people who complain about Sandbox games or "MMO aren't same" this what they are really saying
"I want major companies to spend 100 million on a game that will probably be a niche game,I am ignoring all the small games with the playing style i want because i want huge game support by big company"
I understand it somewhat but does not make any sense i see people going WoW style game suck and keep trying them,Then i see them say i wish there was a game that has a large open world(vanguard),deep game play(Vanguard) interesting classes(vanguard),great crafting(Vanguard) good player housing(vanguard).There is a game on the market that has everything you want why aren't you playing it? The funny thing is i would bet money if SOE closed Vanguard,wait six months released a new game called Ranguard which looks mighty familiar to Vanguard,that game would be huge success.
They are make games you like they are indie games not by companies so they have lesser resources which normal mean inferior graphics but playstyle you are looking for right now.Will you ever get one of those 100 million games to be a sandbox,Maybe 38 studios is making a game they made sandbox rpg single player game their mmo might be influnence by that,EverQuest Next might go back to more of its roots,You might get the perfect storm of IP and gamestyle like SWG before the change.
Please stop being blind though They never stop making sandboxes or strong virtual world mmos,They just became minority instead of majority when Ultima,EQ and others rule the market and they are now being made by small companies who can afford to risk to make a niche game.The mmo market is so big today they is more than enough room for a free to play games,sub games,Sandboxes game,theme park games,Action mmo,tab targeting mmo,etc..MMO should not be one style of game or one style of pricing...I am curious to what going to happen when Archage comes out which will have great graphics with huge budget..You will here people say it is not sandboxy enough...I don't like Asian art style.I am not saying to settle for bad games but please stop pretending that you are not being present with enough of fair choices of gaming for your game style.
Your inability to figure out why sandbox followers are upset with what they have astounds me.
You manage to hit on key points. Such as AAA developers aren't developing sandbox games. You mention that indie developers don't have the means to back such a large task for a MMO. You even go as far to make a list of most of the major sandbox MMO's in recent history. So, why can't you see why we aren't satisfied?
Look at all the games you listed. Now answer me which of those games would you consider a success. Here's my opinion. Eve Online and Vangaurd to some extent. Looking at those two, you have one that is fantasy and one that is space. Only one of them is really considered a true sandbox. So, sandbox players that only accept quality in their product have only one choice. Their choice is a spreadsheet space harvester game. What happens if you don't like space games? You have two options, play an inferior game that isn't fun to you or don't play MMO's at all. Do you see a problem in this?
Now, look at theme park games that have come out recently. How many would you consider a success? There's EQ2, DAoC, WoW, AoC, Rift, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Tera, SWTOR, WAR(to some extent), LoTRO, Star Trek.. and many others that are on the fringe of success that I didn't mention. Though I believe my point is quite clear. Theme park fans have many AAA developers to put their hope in and sandbox players have zero. XL games is the next big hope, and they are an asian company, so who knows what they'll get out of them.
What I find the most disheartening is why people such as yourself continue to try and bring us down. We like a certain playstyle and some things about it is what most would consider niche. This is true, though with your line of thinking...since the MMO market is big enough for all, then why can't we get a couple AAA sandboxes? I believe that most of the sandbox fans, myself included, are open to some compromise. Not all of us want Ultima Online at launch day. Why make posts trying to convince others that our opinions are old and outdated, or worthless? Why try to convince others that we shouldn't get a AAA representation in the sandbox community? How would this negatively affect your gaming experience in your preferred theme park if the sandbox community was happy?
It is this sort of greed and ignorance of todays gamer that really frustrates me. You have all you could ever want to choose from, yet you can't stand the fact that there actually is a large part of the community that wants something different. Just make a post with the word sandbox in it and see how the entire thread opens up in heated debate. The proof is there that it can be successful and that people do want it, why do people like you continue to try and discredit that when it in no way affects you?
Originally posted by Madimorga Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Venger
Originally posted by luckturtz Sandbox games out Mortal Online (FFA PVP),Fallen Earth (Sci-fi), Darkfall (FFA PVP), Earthrise (FFA PVP, Sci-fi), Vanguard (not a sandbox), Ryzom (has already been shot down once), EvE (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Wurm (I've heard the game has performance issues), Perpetum (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Maginobi (never heard of it will have to try it), Xyson (FFA PVP) Sandbox gaming being made Archage (FFA PVP), Dawntide (FFA PVP), The Repouplation (will have to research more), Origins (has a lot of promise but still early in development), Embers of Careus (never heard of this one will have to research it more)
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies. Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
ArcheAge seems to be going more in the direction of Eve, with safe zones, PK penalties, etc. In theory, there should be a fairly vibrant, non-pvp economy and game to support and go with the FFA PvP side of the game. They seem to be trying to give players a lot of choices, which sounds good, no matter what kind of game you're making.
If builders and crafters don't have a completely safe place to build and craft, it's not going to do well in the west. By safe, I mean safe from your own faction and safe from any enemy faction members. If it does do well without real safety for builders and crafters, remind me of this thread, and name a song with the theme, "I was wrong", and I'll sing it. Then the neighbors will have me arrested for disturbing the peace, cruel and unusual punishment, and possibly damaging the environment and hunting without a license.
But I don't think I have to worry. I think I'm right about this one. If it isn't safe to build and craft all or the vast majority of the available homes and items somewhere in the game, it's going to fail.
Dawntide, if I remember correctly and unless it has changed, also does not permit the building of structures in the single, rather small safe area provided. Therefore, it will also fail.
Oh, I actually agree with you. I just think ArcheAge is heading more in the direction of having safe zones for non pvp players and dangerous zones for pvp players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I only support products that justify their subscription fee and/or taking up valuable hard-disk space that could be used for Riko Tachibana movies instead.
I don't mind sandbox (if like Eve, there is genuine sand that allows players to actually create content beyond superficial) or themepark, providing that there are a wealth of different playing styles and the game is not on rails.
Vanguard is more open world in the old EQ mold. If it wasn't for the low player-base (I'm BST - so a low player-base really hurts) and being cack-handed and informing SOE that I was 4 during the age verification, I'd be seriously tempted to play.
Call it the DnL effect, but I don't get my panties in a twist about a list of alleged 'features' until a product has gone 'Gold'.
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
Mortal Online (FFA PVP),Fallen Earth (Sci-fi), Darkfall (FFA PVP), Earthrise (FFA PVP, Sci-fi), Vanguard (not a sandbox), Ryzom (has already been shot down once), EvE (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Wurm (I've heard the game has performance issues), Perpetum (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Maginobi (never heard of it will have to try it), Xyson (FFA PVP)
Sandbox gaming being made
Archage (FFA PVP), Dawntide (FFA PVP), The Repouplation (will have to research more), Origins (has a lot of promise but still early in development), Embers of Careus (never heard of this one will have to research it more)
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies.
Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
ArcheAge seems to be going more in the direction of Eve, with safe zones, PK penalties, etc. In theory, there should be a fairly vibrant, non-pvp economy and game to support and go with the FFA PvP side of the game. They seem to be trying to give players a lot of choices, which sounds good, no matter what kind of game you're making.
If builders and crafters don't have a completely safe place to build and craft, it's not going to do well in the west. By safe, I mean safe from your own faction and safe from any enemy faction members.
If it does do well without real safety for builders and crafters, remind me of this thread, and name a song with the theme, "I was wrong", and I'll sing it. Then the neighbors will have me arrested for disturbing the peace, cruel and unusual punishment, and possibly damaging the environment and hunting without a license.
But I don't think I have to worry. I think I'm right about this one. If it isn't safe to build and craft all or the vast majority of the available homes and items somewhere in the game, it's going to fail.
Dawntide, if I remember correctly and unless it has changed, also does not permit the building of structures in the single, rather small safe area provided. Therefore, it will also fail.
Oh, I actually agree with you. I just think ArcheAge is heading more in the direction of having safe zones for non pvp players and dangerous zones for pvp players.
I agree as well. The funny thing is, sandbox developers don't even know their own audience. A big chunk of sandbox gamers don't want to PvP all the time. There needs to be some safe zones. Ultima Online has really been the last successful sandbox fantasy MMO, they have safe zones. Houses were very safe, as well as cities other than Buc's Den. There were even some cities where you could gather resources under the protection of guards.
The economy of these games require safety to some extent.
The complaint from me isn't that "there are no sandbox games on the market", it's more that "we've had these amazing innovations from games like SWG, EVE and Ryzom and yet the industry seems to have learned absolutely nothing and is not building on these amazing concepts".
EQ2 & WoW came out years ago and then after them LoTRO, Vanguard, AoC, WAR, TR, AoC, RIFT and now SWTOR have all been created with the general concept of "being a better WoW/EQ2". So for people that really enjoyed WoW/EQ2, lots has been built on concepts from those games. Well, where the f**k is my "better SWG"? where is my "better EVE"? where is my "better Ryzom"? That's what i'm NOT seeing on the market.
I actually rather that complaint to theres no sandboxes begin made i can answer that question
Where is better your "SWG".SWG was a freak of nature was a sandbox with strong IP,You can make argument that game would not have sold as much without best IP outthere
Where is your better "EVE"? Eve has 300k AoC which was failure had 700k,AoC which was failure and players swore it and funcom off,Still manage to get 300k again with a move to free to play
Where is your better Ryzom?Ryzom died and was barely brought back to life while Allods a 12 million dollar to make WoW clone still kicking and breathing and Runes of Magic a WoW clone is still kicking and breathing.
If you where given 100 million dollars to make a video game and you get keep profits would you make sandbox game? I will bet you money that you probably won't make back your money with sandbox.Ask yourself why does not EA make another Ultima,Why doesn't Turbine make another AC,Why wasn't Shadowbane 2 made,Then ask yourself why is there a Cabal 2 being made,Archlord 2 being made.The market isn't there for type game that right now and the funny thing is when just one game has success you will these companies rushing to put Ultima online 2 or AC3.
PS if i was given 100 million dollars i am pocketing all but 12 million and i am making WoW clone like Allods but this time no crappy Cash shop.
The funny thing is, sandbox developers don't even know their own audience.
<SNIP>
Nor do the gamers half the time in fairness, but yeah I agree with you.
For me that is half the issue, a sandbox that is not trying to be a pvp centric game, that is not trying to be anything specific over and above a sandbox world with options for everyone is quite right to have ffa and even looting. But tailored with safe zones, a stong deterent on random, chaotic pking and the like. Games live EVE have it pretty much nailed on in that respect in my own opinion. Whilst you an pk anywhere, it really is not much of an option to do that unless someone is walking about with a ridiculous amount of "stuff" and you manage to get away wit it.
Then on the other side we have pvp centric sandbox games, the problem with those is that the developers don't seem to grasp that their main audience, the pvpers don't want to spend all day grinding, they want to be beating the crap out of each other.
There is a clear difference between the two that neither the players (in general) nor the people creating the games seem to understand (more often than not).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
If I had $100 million and I got to keep the profit, I'd put together a team capable of making a hybrid MMO and balancing various paths so that no matter what you do, you put in a similar amount of playtime as everyone else to achieve a particular end.
So let's say you want to build houses for yourself, your friends, and paying customers. You, ma'am, are a contractor. You start off being able to make something a well bred dog wouldn't live in, and from there you progress to mansions, office buildings, manufacturing facilities, power plants, and orbiting space stations.
You can do other things too. You can slaughter hapless mobs (via quests or self-directed grinding or a mix of both). You can slaughter hapless players, explore and map your way across the universe (then sell the maps), farm, mine, become a world famous chef, or just hang out at the club with your friends. But you don't have to. You don't have to do any of those things if all you really want to do in game is put shiny buildings where innocent wildlife or junk satellites used to roam.
If that is all that you do, it will take you the same amount of time to completely master your craft (until the next expansion, anyway) as it will for someone to master the art of killing innocent mobs, or innocent players, or cartography, or to become the world's best chef, or be on the red carpet guest list of every club in the world (if that's really your thing).
You can do everything eventually and master everything too, provided you have a remaining lifespan of, say, 100 years, with a solid 60 hours per week to devote to your character. You are immortal, you have inside you blood of kings, you have no rival...oh wait, that's your avatar. You, on the other hand, have a finite amount of playtime. Which is fine, because, all channeling of Queen aside (sorry, was listening the Highlander soundtrack recently), while you won't really be able to master everything, you can switch up your activities whenever you're so inclined, sacrifcing only the time you're taking away from your main profession.
And no, you don't have to be sociable if you don't want to. You won't be dependent on any other player or group of players for any path. You can do it all by yourself, if that's really your thing. But you don't have to. You can work with others, it just won't give you any special advantages. It also won't give you disadvantages, though.
If you choose to live, work, or explore in a pvp region, you won't get any extra advantages, and you will suffer the disadvantage of being killable and lootable, and of everything you have and do in that area being killable and lootable, too. However, you will also be able to kill and loot others in the pvp zones, steal their property, destroy their homes and businesses, wreak havoc on their sleep schedule, and in general be just as nasty as you want to be. Knock yourself out. But no one has to ever step foot in that part of the galaxy.
To me, a sandbox is really just about having more choices and less direction. If I had $100 million dollars to invest in a game, I'd bet on the game design that gives the max amount of freedom to the max amount of players, without permitting those players to step on the toes of any player who doesn't willingly seek out a zone to inhabit that encourages toe stomping.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Comments
OP, people want a well made sandbox. They are not going to be happy with a pile of shite just because it is a sandbox. EVE is perhaps the only quality product there and given (up until recently and only in a limited form) you are restricted to a ship, that is not going to float typical "avatar centric" players now is it.
The rest are either highly pvp centric (i.e. a sandpit with pvp focus like Darkfall) or a bugged pile of crap (also to an extent like Darkfall)* or not even sandboxes.
To be honest I just want UO 2.0, with a classic rule option so yeah I'm not blind just deluded lol.
* I love the game, well it's potential, and hope 2.0 sorts it out, i'm not bashing it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
More seasoned MMO gamers have higher expectations of quality, most of them have actually played titles where the devs were actually allowed/interested in pouring their souls into the creation and maintenance. Look at the shit that is out today, even some of these currently released sandbox MMOs, and look for signs of legitimate caring amongst the developers. You won't find it.
The point is .... as an old schooler myself...is that there arent any games to rival the depth and things to do like old Everquest had anymore.
And the reason why is that it all about levelling....be it a themepark or a sandbox...it all still comes down to levels. Anyone who has played Darkfall or MO will tell you that there was no difference in those games than class/level games other than in class/level games you have more choice.
Whatever game i pick up these days, all i seem to find are levels.
In Everquest there was a huge grind, but there was also danger, community, crafting that was a huge grind but rewarding with time spent. There was adventure and exploration...finding hidden zones ( anyone remember finding Dalnirs crypt?).
And please dont give me the rose tinted glasses comment as you will find my level 30 Char playing on the fippy darkpaw progression server as we speak. And guess what! i am loving it all over again ( cough...yes ok thats because i got 45 days free...but i am resubbing friday as it runs out then )
What we are looking for is something that will deliver promises friend. We hear it all the time and then buy and sub a game only to find it's nothing like they promised
Agree...and may be resubbing to EQ myself here in the next couple of days.
The majority of "sandbox" MMOs listed by the OP are either ridden with FFA PvP, lack several features, are extremely unpolished and buggy, or are only very weakly sandbox games with a heavier themepark influence.
I've yet to see an MMO come close to what Ultima Online achieved in depth and breadth of gamepaly and freedom, and that game is well over a decade old.
Okay, there are sandboxes out there, but if, from the beginning or a few months in, those sandboxes aren't worth whatever their asking price is, then they might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned. For example, Entropia is a huge game with a lot of elements I love to see in an MMO, but it's not worth the asking price because it's well over $30/mo to play the way I would like to play. Actually, it would probably end up being well over $60 now, given the new content they've added. Therefore, it exists, but might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned.
I want my money's worth when I buy anything. Discretionary purchases are the one area of the market where buyers have real power, because we can do without. Guess what? This buyer is now doing without an MMO sub. I'd rather spend the money on other things. Until and unless something measures up to my exacting standards, I will continue to go without a sub.
I'm utterly disgusted with what's on offer of late and annoyed at how much I have spent in the past year trying to find something that clicks with me for more than a few weeks or even a couple of months. I want an MMO to settle in with for a few years, one that gives me my money's worth in entertainment (even if I were incredibly wealthy, I would not spend massive amounts of money in a game like Entropia as a form of entertainment because I don't consider it a good bargain and wouldn't want to encourage those kind of prices, and as for it being a business enterprise, I would consider it far too risky an investment).
Nothing out there in MMO land, be it themepark, sandbox, hybrid, or other, meets my standards. And as the one holding the wallet and waiting to spend some money, my standards are what determines whether there are, in fact, any sandbox MMOs, or any other MMOs, out there or not. Right now, the world is devoid of MMOs worth paying for.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies.
Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
You forgot Istaria. And Vanguard is not a sandbox at all.
Venge
Wow, when I read the OP's opening post, I got a flashback to my imaginary youth.
Me: Mom, I'm hungery and there's nothing to eat.
Mom: What do you mean there's nothing to eat. There's brocoli, spinach, cauliflower, eggplant...
Me: I want something with some meat.
Mom: There's two month old rancid meat with maggots in the bottom compartment.
Me: That's gross.
Mom: Well then you must not be that hungery if your so picky.
If you consider Vanguard a Sandbox game, you also have to consider WoW, EQ2, LoTRO and AoC sandbox games and i don't think you want to make that argument. Vanguard is most certainly a theme park game. It's nearly identical in gameplay design to EQ2 and WoW, just with a few mechanic differences that all games have. The reason I am not playing vanguard is that - aside from diplomacy - i'm getting everything i would get from Vanguard in my current MMO (EQ2) and unlike Vanguard, EQ2 didn't ignore 10 years of technological progress for the sake of a retarded designer's "vision" - which mainly consisted of making a game that was outdated because he missed his chance in a previous job.
Fallen Earth is more of a hybrid, it has pretty much all the themepark elements of a game like EQ2, but also has a lot of freeform stuff that is usually associated with sandboxes. FE's problem was lack of direction for endgame. It had neither a building/exploration endgame common in sandboxes, nor the raiding/gearing endgame associated with themeparks. I really liked this game, but the low budget was also extremely evident.
You've also left out what is arguable the best sandbox made - SWG. SWG and EVE being the only "major" sandbox titles. And I think most people are quite aware of them. SWG was nearly destroyed by NGE, so it's not an option. And EVE, well, EVE is entirely too PvP-oriented for me. I've played it for months and just keep running into the fact that to REALLY enjoy EVE you have to PvP, and PvP isn't my thing. (The PvP thing is also true about at least several other games on your list - Mortal, Darkfall and Perpetuum. I'm not sure about others.)
The complaint from me isn't that "there are no sandbox games on the market", it's more that "we've had these amazing innovations from games like SWG, EVE and Ryzom and yet the industry seems to have learned absolutely nothing and is not building on these amazing concepts".
EQ2 & WoW came out years ago and then after them LoTRO, Vanguard, AoC, WAR, TR, AoC, RIFT and now SWTOR have all been created with the general concept of "being a better WoW/EQ2". So for people that really enjoyed WoW/EQ2, lots has been built on concepts from those games. Well, where the f**k is my "better SWG"? where is my "better EVE"? where is my "better Ryzom"? That's what i'm NOT seeing on the market.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
To the OP: The games you listed are either old, or shit - except Vanguard.
Vanguard is good, but been out for a long time. People tend to be turned off by that.
No, the OP pretty much nailed it, we see the current crop of sandbox style games, have played many of them (VG is not a sandbox btw, just a deeper than average themepark) and now want something more.
Half baked Indie titles aren't going to cut it, nor am I convinced that we have nothing to look forward to on the horizon.
I figure eventually enough gamers will tire of the standard theme park model and one or two major devs will get smart enough to take a bit of a risk.
In the meantime, expect me to bitch about it.
BTW, I love a good theme park style game, just not when it copies so many elements of WOW that I feel like I never really left Azeroth.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
ArcheAge seems to be going more in the direction of Eve, with safe zones, PK penalties, etc. In theory, there should be a fairly vibrant, non-pvp economy and game to support and go with the FFA PvP side of the game. They seem to be trying to give players a lot of choices, which sounds good, no matter what kind of game you're making.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Hehe, nice one!
But i guess your mom did not try to sell that rancid meat even for a penny and did not whine bcs nobody buys it?
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
If builders and crafters don't have a completely safe place to build and craft, it's not going to do well in the west. By safe, I mean safe from your own faction and safe from any enemy faction members.
If it does do well without real safety for builders and crafters, remind me of this thread, and name a song with the theme, "I was wrong", and I'll sing it. Then the neighbors will have me arrested for disturbing the peace, cruel and unusual punishment, and possibly damaging the environment and hunting without a license.
But I don't think I have to worry. I think I'm right about this one. If it isn't safe to build and craft all or the vast majority of the available homes and items somewhere in the game, it's going to fail.
Dawntide, if I remember correctly and unless it has changed, also does not permit the building of structures in the single, rather small safe area provided. Therefore, it will also fail.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Brocoli,spinach and eggplants are good for you.Should have listen to your mom
In all serious the point that style of gaming that start the industry is now niche gaming,Instead of big companies making them indie companies are making those style of game.Complaining that industry does not make them is not trueand expection for them to make big budget games for niche gaming is silly but
RTS is fairly big and one game name Warcraft got a called Dota,It was niche for awhile until somebody realize that players would enjoy it.So they made LoL which has like millions of players and now you are seeing more MOBA.So i am not discounting niche genre it just seems that Old school and Sandboxplayer don't realize they are a niche,Just like myself who loves a good action mmo or good MMOFPS.
At some point a company will realize that if a make a good niche game like Gears of War or League of Legends then i can make lots of money but understand till then that it is a niche and game like Call of Duty and Starcraft will probably rule.You guys are like people screaming for TPS and MOBA in genre that will always be dominated by FPS and RTS.I am not saying not complain about and for games you want but realize you are small part of the genre.
Also and yes it means support crappy or average Sandbox from time to time.If you can rush out support crappy themepark you probably won't like ,You can support average sandbox and hope the industry takes notice of this little game or devs use the money to get better.Support Archage so the industry can see that Sandbox can get big numbers too that is just a thought.If you can trick yourself into liking SWTOR you can trick yourself into liking Archage.
Your inability to figure out why sandbox followers are upset with what they have astounds me.
You manage to hit on key points. Such as AAA developers aren't developing sandbox games. You mention that indie developers don't have the means to back such a large task for a MMO. You even go as far to make a list of most of the major sandbox MMO's in recent history. So, why can't you see why we aren't satisfied?
Look at all the games you listed. Now answer me which of those games would you consider a success. Here's my opinion. Eve Online and Vangaurd to some extent. Looking at those two, you have one that is fantasy and one that is space. Only one of them is really considered a true sandbox. So, sandbox players that only accept quality in their product have only one choice. Their choice is a spreadsheet space harvester game. What happens if you don't like space games? You have two options, play an inferior game that isn't fun to you or don't play MMO's at all. Do you see a problem in this?
Now, look at theme park games that have come out recently. How many would you consider a success? There's EQ2, DAoC, WoW, AoC, Rift, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Tera, SWTOR, WAR(to some extent), LoTRO, Star Trek.. and many others that are on the fringe of success that I didn't mention. Though I believe my point is quite clear. Theme park fans have many AAA developers to put their hope in and sandbox players have zero. XL games is the next big hope, and they are an asian company, so who knows what they'll get out of them.
What I find the most disheartening is why people such as yourself continue to try and bring us down. We like a certain playstyle and some things about it is what most would consider niche. This is true, though with your line of thinking...since the MMO market is big enough for all, then why can't we get a couple AAA sandboxes? I believe that most of the sandbox fans, myself included, are open to some compromise. Not all of us want Ultima Online at launch day. Why make posts trying to convince others that our opinions are old and outdated, or worthless? Why try to convince others that we shouldn't get a AAA representation in the sandbox community? How would this negatively affect your gaming experience in your preferred theme park if the sandbox community was happy?
It is this sort of greed and ignorance of todays gamer that really frustrates me. You have all you could ever want to choose from, yet you can't stand the fact that there actually is a large part of the community that wants something different. Just make a post with the word sandbox in it and see how the entire thread opens up in heated debate. The proof is there that it can be successful and that people do want it, why do people like you continue to try and discredit that when it in no way affects you?
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies.
Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
ArcheAge seems to be going more in the direction of Eve, with safe zones, PK penalties, etc. In theory, there should be a fairly vibrant, non-pvp economy and game to support and go with the FFA PvP side of the game. They seem to be trying to give players a lot of choices, which sounds good, no matter what kind of game you're making.
If builders and crafters don't have a completely safe place to build and craft, it's not going to do well in the west. By safe, I mean safe from your own faction and safe from any enemy faction members.
If it does do well without real safety for builders and crafters, remind me of this thread, and name a song with the theme, "I was wrong", and I'll sing it. Then the neighbors will have me arrested for disturbing the peace, cruel and unusual punishment, and possibly damaging the environment and hunting without a license.
But I don't think I have to worry. I think I'm right about this one. If it isn't safe to build and craft all or the vast majority of the available homes and items somewhere in the game, it's going to fail.
Dawntide, if I remember correctly and unless it has changed, also does not permit the building of structures in the single, rather small safe area provided. Therefore, it will also fail.
Oh, I actually agree with you. I just think ArcheAge is heading more in the direction of having safe zones for non pvp players and dangerous zones for pvp players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I only support products that justify their subscription fee and/or taking up valuable hard-disk space that could be used for Riko Tachibana movies instead.
I don't mind sandbox (if like Eve, there is genuine sand that allows players to actually create content beyond superficial) or themepark, providing that there are a wealth of different playing styles and the game is not on rails.
Vanguard is more open world in the old EQ mold. If it wasn't for the low player-base (I'm BST - so a low player-base really hurts) and being cack-handed and informing SOE that I was 4 during the age verification, I'd be seriously tempted to play.
Call it the DnL effect, but I don't get my panties in a twist about a list of alleged 'features' until a product has gone 'Gold'.
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
I agree as well. The funny thing is, sandbox developers don't even know their own audience. A big chunk of sandbox gamers don't want to PvP all the time. There needs to be some safe zones. Ultima Online has really been the last successful sandbox fantasy MMO, they have safe zones. Houses were very safe, as well as cities other than Buc's Den. There were even some cities where you could gather resources under the protection of guards.
The economy of these games require safety to some extent.
I actually rather that complaint to theres no sandboxes begin made i can answer that question
Where is better your "SWG".SWG was a freak of nature was a sandbox with strong IP,You can make argument that game would not have sold as much without best IP outthere
Where is your better "EVE"? Eve has 300k AoC which was failure had 700k,AoC which was failure and players swore it and funcom off,Still manage to get 300k again with a move to free to play
Where is your better Ryzom?Ryzom died and was barely brought back to life while Allods a 12 million dollar to make WoW clone still kicking and breathing and Runes of Magic a WoW clone is still kicking and breathing.
If you where given 100 million dollars to make a video game and you get keep profits would you make sandbox game? I will bet you money that you probably won't make back your money with sandbox.Ask yourself why does not EA make another Ultima,Why doesn't Turbine make another AC,Why wasn't Shadowbane 2 made,Then ask yourself why is there a Cabal 2 being made,Archlord 2 being made.The market isn't there for type game that right now and the funny thing is when just one game has success you will these companies rushing to put Ultima online 2 or AC3.
PS if i was given 100 million dollars i am pocketing all but 12 million and i am making WoW clone like Allods but this time no crappy Cash shop.
Nor do the gamers half the time in fairness, but yeah I agree with you.
For me that is half the issue, a sandbox that is not trying to be a pvp centric game, that is not trying to be anything specific over and above a sandbox world with options for everyone is quite right to have ffa and even looting. But tailored with safe zones, a stong deterent on random, chaotic pking and the like. Games live EVE have it pretty much nailed on in that respect in my own opinion. Whilst you an pk anywhere, it really is not much of an option to do that unless someone is walking about with a ridiculous amount of "stuff" and you manage to get away wit it.
Then on the other side we have pvp centric sandbox games, the problem with those is that the developers don't seem to grasp that their main audience, the pvpers don't want to spend all day grinding, they want to be beating the crap out of each other.
There is a clear difference between the two that neither the players (in general) nor the people creating the games seem to understand (more often than not).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
If I had $100 million and I got to keep the profit, I'd put together a team capable of making a hybrid MMO and balancing various paths so that no matter what you do, you put in a similar amount of playtime as everyone else to achieve a particular end.
So let's say you want to build houses for yourself, your friends, and paying customers. You, ma'am, are a contractor. You start off being able to make something a well bred dog wouldn't live in, and from there you progress to mansions, office buildings, manufacturing facilities, power plants, and orbiting space stations.
You can do other things too. You can slaughter hapless mobs (via quests or self-directed grinding or a mix of both). You can slaughter hapless players, explore and map your way across the universe (then sell the maps), farm, mine, become a world famous chef, or just hang out at the club with your friends. But you don't have to. You don't have to do any of those things if all you really want to do in game is put shiny buildings where innocent wildlife or junk satellites used to roam.
If that is all that you do, it will take you the same amount of time to completely master your craft (until the next expansion, anyway) as it will for someone to master the art of killing innocent mobs, or innocent players, or cartography, or to become the world's best chef, or be on the red carpet guest list of every club in the world (if that's really your thing).
You can do everything eventually and master everything too, provided you have a remaining lifespan of, say, 100 years, with a solid 60 hours per week to devote to your character. You are immortal, you have inside you blood of kings, you have no rival...oh wait, that's your avatar. You, on the other hand, have a finite amount of playtime. Which is fine, because, all channeling of Queen aside (sorry, was listening the Highlander soundtrack recently), while you won't really be able to master everything, you can switch up your activities whenever you're so inclined, sacrifcing only the time you're taking away from your main profession.
And no, you don't have to be sociable if you don't want to. You won't be dependent on any other player or group of players for any path. You can do it all by yourself, if that's really your thing. But you don't have to. You can work with others, it just won't give you any special advantages. It also won't give you disadvantages, though.
If you choose to live, work, or explore in a pvp region, you won't get any extra advantages, and you will suffer the disadvantage of being killable and lootable, and of everything you have and do in that area being killable and lootable, too. However, you will also be able to kill and loot others in the pvp zones, steal their property, destroy their homes and businesses, wreak havoc on their sleep schedule, and in general be just as nasty as you want to be. Knock yourself out. But no one has to ever step foot in that part of the galaxy.
To me, a sandbox is really just about having more choices and less direction. If I had $100 million dollars to invest in a game, I'd bet on the game design that gives the max amount of freedom to the max amount of players, without permitting those players to step on the toes of any player who doesn't willingly seek out a zone to inhabit that encourages toe stomping.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein