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MMOs are only about math, sadly
malefacus
Member Posts: 135
I do not play videogames for math. Why does everybody, devs and players forgot about fun and creativity? Every class design is full of dull skill wich are there because they workk well in the math of the class. Math is killing this genre. Who's fault is it? PLayers who only think about power? (Power comes trough math) Or devs who just wanna cash on adictiveness of this math centric dynimics and systems and keeps doing boring math heavy games(and forget about the fun)?
Comments
Math is essentially how things are coded. What do you suggest the developers do to get away from it?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Sadly more math is needed. IF math was used we would have class balance as a starting point for progression.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think the math you're refering to and the lack of really cool skills stems from attempts to balance the classes from a pvp stand point. One way I can think of to counter this is to have 2 seperate skill trees, one only used for pvm where the skills can be over the top both in effect and power, and another set for pvp which would be more controlled and even. Obviously the 2 sets of skills should be exclusive to their field ie pvp skills can only be used in pvp and vice versa.
Think Mr Numbers wants a slap on the back>>> tool
Code games with unicorns and rainbows! Everyone knows how math works, but if games are coded with REAL magic, nobody will be able to over-analyze games.
I think the OP needs a break from their game. The math behind it usually isn't at fault. The fault lies in the way the math is disguised. Health bars and floating damage numbers make the math too visible. Many action (console) games are more fun because you don't see the math. You just fight stuff and hope you win. Someone needs to go back to the good old days of games like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Mario, and Zelda, but make them work in a MMO setting.
Less emphasis on character progression is one way. Another is significantly reduce the disparity between levels.
Right now the majority of MMOs are about progression.Very few MMOs are designed so that when a player shops or crafts they are choosing style/looks over stats. That's promarily because there are very few players who are playing that way. Most are playing for stats. Rewind to 10 years ago and things may have been different. Plenty of ACers repeated certain dungeons sheerly because they found them fun to do with others - Focusing Stone and various weapon creation quests come to mind. In UO, there were plenty of people that chose halberd and broadsword because of the sound they made when you slammed an enemy. But even back then, that was just some, and the vast majority cared about their DPS.
Most players work toward the numbers, sometimes blindly. For example, in AC, archers would pay insane amounts to buy bows with certain modifiers, swearing by their benefits but... never actually doing any tests to see what benefit it gives. It wasn't until after years of these bows in game that it was finally revealed by the devs that the modifier never worked.
Fast forward and you have lunacy like the outrage by WoW Hunters when they were 'nerfed' by changes that pretty much resulted in possibly extending any given battle by about 3 seconds. (the 2005 changes, not the 2008 "Great Nerf' changes). It didn't matter that the end result of the changes was an INCREASE in damage output for many hunters - two numbers are lower today than they were yesterday therefore riots must ensue.
Now, if it doesn't make much difference whether I'm using a 1-6 dagger or a 2-7 dagger then players are going to weigh cosmetics into the decision. If levels and "The Cap" are not particularly important to gameplay then players aren't going to care if they are averageing 500XP or 5000 XP per minute, which then shifts how people play more towards emergent behaviour, creativity, and interaction buecase they aren't trying to keep up with their guild and not get 'left behind'.
I mean, the whole level and progression thing is so severely overemphasized that people only thinkin terms of the rate and gains of killing mobs, alone or in groups, with or without buffs, and simply just sporeadsheeting the whole damn game.
It's not uncommon to see people posting about the 'opportunity costs' and other business/marketing terms in relation to how they play their MMOs. Now, I'm not about to say that people shouldn't play the way that they want, rather just pointing out that a lot of the math is weighed heavily in how many players are already approaching the game to begin with, whether that is the focus of the game or not.
MMOs that move away from progression based content or significantly reduce the disparity of progression will see less mathing and more gaming; however, if a game is just about getting base puirples so that you can get your second level purples so that you can get your 3rd, 4th, 5th... 10th purples then you'll end up with not only a good portionof the players focusing on the math, but the effect of that score-based decision making will be that even those who don't participate in it will be affected because they will be judged and accepted/rejected by those who are playing solely for the highest points and score.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i Guess the OP means that in a mmo only numbers count not the skill, the easy example is: confront a guy 10 lvls higher + better gear + more skills = you "normally" loose the combat, no matter how well you execute your skills or even move around the player, so at the end maths are the only that matters, only in a few mmos i played that maths where balanced to make all the lvl/gears stuff not THAT important, still is only my opinion.
But this isn´t the problem of MMO, this is RPG. Well, mostly, imo
edit: I currently play Trackmania 2. There is no progression at all - only how you good you master the track. Needless to say I only hit the last third of the results; I am too old for this, but it is fun.
This would be skill-based.
If you think in terms of EQ/WOW variants - games where the only thing you can do is poke each other with sticks to gain points to get bigger sticks - then yes. However, not all MMOs are designed that way. Defeating an opponent in other games can include cutting off their supplies, espionage, sabotage, mercenaries forces or other military, social or diplomatic tactics. This isn't solely because of the advancement mechanism, but also because of the non-linear game design allowing multiple avenues by which people can naturally gain, use and abuse power.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The very fabric of a computer is all mathematics, utilizing primarily logic. if you don't want to see 'numbers' then your going to be playing a rather dule game that really has no progression at all... oh.... but don't worry, math still exists there.
All RPG's/games in general use a lot of math, but I will agree MMO's do not require much in terms of the users timing or critical thinking. It's all about number crunching and getting that perfect build for your class.
Big issue really with MMos is that, you can only do so much to make timing take effect when it involves a large scale world. Sure its possible in instances but when you got so many people in an outside area all that individual input starts taking a toll. You need to make it fair so a person with 5 ping has just as much chance as someone with 120 ping. Sure they still might have an advantage but it can't be massive.
That being said, a lot of 'instance based' games tend to allow for skill to shine more. While stats and gear do play some part, most often skill can do a bit more for you there then in the traditional MMOs.
That's why i prefer games that have "dragon slayer sword" or "heavy-fur cloak" instead of "sword +50 strenght" and "armor +20 resistance against frost spells". Games would be way more mysterious, therefor interesting and fun without numbers. Do you need numbers to understand that a "dusty dagger" is less effective that a "silver dagger with some blue glow" anyway ? In my perfect game, there would be no "best" gear anyway, but lots of very different ones, that you could change depending of the encounter. You shouldn't fight the same way against a giant scorpion in the desert and against zombies in a marsh, at night.
Ultimately, it's also a "numbers versus skills" thingy. There are lots of tales where the hero wins despite having the biggest one. David vs Goliath, the Troy war, LotR, Star Wars etc. All of them use skills, intelligence or cooperation (ok, and luck ^^) instead of having the best weapon or the biggest army. Sometimes they win without real fight ! And imho, those stories are more epic than the boring "i've got the full last-tier armor, you don't, i win".
The *only* MMORPG that should use numbers are indeed the SF/technical ones, like EVE Online. A medieval rogue doesn't have to know that his shoes give him +10 agility. But it's totaly normal that a space miner knows his ship spec and the exact percentage of his shield.
On a slitghy different subject, World of Darkness Online seems to focus way more on roleplay, especially politic and social. ie: instead of having to kill the "bad guy", you'll have to create plots, to talk a lot, to form alliances and so on to depose him and maybe take his place.
how do you think any video game is coded there slick?
they're ALL based off math.
so basically you're saying..you don't play video games.
gotcha.
next.
Even if everything is based off math, math should be hidden.
Think of real life: when you see a beautiful woman/man: you don't have texts floating around her with her size, weight, age, iq, etc. you just... see her and that's enough ^^
For now.....
It's only a matter of time before all becomes math! You can not stop the mathification!
The real solution isn't to hide the math, crazy people with too much time will mathify it anyway...
The real solution is to provide so much math that things are no longer comparable.
With a "rusty dagger" vs "silver dagger" some idiot somewhere will run a few thousand tests to figure out the numbers then post it on a forum and before you know it it'll be common and expected knowledge.
Wih a "dagger of +10" vs "dagger of +20" you just cut out the middle man and save that idiot some time to waste on other things.
But a "dagger of +10 fire, +25% crippling, +35 ice, +5% vampiric, -10% speed, -5% critical, +55 lightning" vs "dagger of +15 holy, +55% weakening, +5 unholy, +15% leeching, -5% health, -20% regeneration, +33% frenzy" that's something even the craziest mathamancer will have trouble figuring out, then add in thousands more randomly generated items and that idiot will be staring at his screen totally overwhelmed and stupified by all the maths floating around while those who just say "meh.... sounds good!" come in an omgwtfuberbbqpwn him.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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(")("),,(")("),(")(")
... you said some stuff about... math or something.
... but I just wanted to look shocked that you're still alive!
Also, to be on topic, math.
And you changed your avatar! No more baby! I am dissapoint! Though granted, the teddy bear with mohawk compensates somewhat.
But yar! still alive, vacation and uni were spawn-camping me for a while. Managed to get away for a bit, but have to keep watching them bastards they always jump you while you're AFK. Still waiting for the MMO that has a buff with "RL consequences protection +9000", now that game I'd play....
ps. The +9000 is maths and thus on-topic.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
agrees with wall of text
That's like saying writing is only about words...
That's the problem with autolock games.
No autolock in wwiionline, you actually have to aim. The math is quite simple: If you hit an S-35 with a pak36 on the upper side armor at greater than 20 degrees off perpendicular, the round will just bounce off. of course I just pulled those numbers out of my ASS, but it sort of how it works.
WWIIONLINE combines geometry and algebra, something most players are incapable of processing with that underdeveloped lobe on top of the brainstem. The autolock games just use algebra, which most players can decifer, even after great effort.
This is why wwiionline was the only game i've stayed subscribed to for longer than 6 months, 5 years to be non-exact. There was math, and more math, but you had to "feel" what you were doing still, and even after 5 years there was still allot of learning to be had on certain toys and I'm not talking about flying.
Anti-tanking in wwiionline, I dunno, I get a rush of adrenaline followed up by a rush of pleasure when flaming an enemy tank in this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2tB9LXgjOE&hd=1
By relation, vehicular combat, tanking, is also much better here than in any BF2 game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLL9Ew-7GQ8&feature=related
I get so relaxed when listening to these sounds, like going home: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VI_qlmbe3E&feature=related
Have you ever been in a bomber being shot at by an enemy fighter, which was being followed and shot at by a friendly fighter, which was being being followed behind him by another enemy fighter, who was also being trailed by another friendly shooting at him? <---me<---enemy<---friendly<----enemy<------friendly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOn0Y5hp2kE&feature=related
You don't see that?
You must be a girl.
Based on Cost-Benefit analysis, its much safer to adventure with a group than solo. One reason is you don't have to work as hard to kill mobs, you don't have to do all the work, and your chances of dying are less because your not the only target. Grouping also gives you individually more killing power. Mmorpgs were designed to be a social grouping event, and it works in your favor to group in mmorpgs to take advantage of leveling faster in groups. Bad groups can hurt your progression, so it behooves any adventurer to not get sucked into groups that suck. There are usually tell-tale signs of bad groups. Groups that split up and fight individually in a dungeon when they aren't solo-experts is one sign. Healers who forget to heal until after the fight is over is a sure way to get people killed.
Your experience points per minute ratio depends dramatically on how successful you are on missions and killing. This can dramatically increase when in good groups.
Math is an important part of how successful your adventuring really is. Number crunching helps the end result. Is it better to wield a a +1 flaming longsword that does 1D6 of flame + 1D8 of dmg +1 dmg for enhancement or a +4 longsword that does 4+1D8? considering the fact that the +4 longsword also has a +4 to hit ratio vs the +1 that only gets +1, it hits 15% more often, making that 1D8+4 dmg happen 15% more likely and probably more worthwhile consistant damage over time. Being able to compare and determine what is better can not only be done thru math, but thru experience by using both weapons. Trial and errior and trying to determine the best path is possible, even if you don't see the math behind the scenes. Some games don't show you the math, but by looking at the end results (are you hitting more often, killing faster), you can determine the optimal DPS route.
I happen to be someone who loves math. I enjoy the number crunching. So deciphering the code is fun for me. I enjoy talking about the above scenerio. Call me twisted. ;0
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
MMORPGs are based on MUDs.
Text based games where all you had were simplistic design toward killing things and taking their loot.
Thats just, how it is.
Funny how you speak of spreadsheets when so many people that hate EVE because it plays like a spreadsheet when they are doing the exact same thing in WoW playing a spreadsheet.