I think I found your problem (took awhile, but we got it!).
You seem to associate the statement "needs cash" with "doing bad". That is a rather middle-class way of looking at money and business and I can only assume you have never owned one.
No one said Trion isn't "doing well", at least I didn't. They need cash. That's a totally different statement. Have you ever heard the term 'cash poor'? If not, look it up okay?
Trion has too many irons in the fire and needs CASH. Now. Rift is doing okay, but when you look at Trion's plate.. they need cash. It should be pretty obvious.
*raises hand* I was the one who said they aren't doing well.
What I've been saying all along is that Trion is not doing well in comparison to their own planning / projections. They were looking for Rift to be a mass-market hit (million+ subscribers, a contender with WoW, etc)...and to bring in big cash for their other endeavors. This did not turn out to be what happened...so in that context they are not doing well.
In terms of keeping the lights on and paying people, I'm sure they are okay for the moment. I think we agree that this potential IPO is a way to try and generate cash in order to get their various other projects off the ground...I'm just including the caveat that the reason they NEED more cash is because Rift isn't quite the golden goose they were planning on.
Originally posted by Uhwop
Do me a favor.
Show me a company that created an IPO because they weren't doing well. Go for it.
That's easy. Vonage. Look it up.
They were loosing money like crazy (something like 300 million in the red from their founding until their IPO due to infrastructure costs), and facing competition from the big telecoms in the VOIP market. So...they went public to raise much needed cash.
IPOs generate cash quickly, if you can convince investors that you are worth investing in. Since Rift is not providing the money they need to do all they want to do, they are looking at an IPO to get their other projects off the launching pad to hopefully become the big monster contender of a company that they want to be. As I said earlier...the biggest problem with this idea is their lack of a proven track record. They are looking at an IPO because Rift isn't doing nearly as well as they'd hoped, and people who might potentially invest in Trion are going to see that.
If your business is creating games, investors are going to want to see that you make games which are really good and successful. With Trion, investors will be looking at a company with a lot of promises, and one game that didn't live up to the hype. Not a recipe for a successful IPO...but Trion may have no choice.
I think right now Rift probably isnt far off of what Trion expected. however with the good reviews, early word of mouth, and better than anticpated launch they likely assumed that Rift would be a big hit and accelerated some of their other projects (hiring more staff, etc). They could have thought they had an EQ/WoW/EvE on ther hands (games that did NOT drop off and showed continued growth for years). But what the eneded up with was a modest success. Far from a failure, but not a mega hit and one that shows some scauses for concern
I think right now Rift probably isnt far off of what Trion expected. however with the good reviews, early word of mouth, and better than anticpated launch they likely assumed that Rift would be a big hit and accelerated some of their other projects (hiring more staff, etc). They could have thought they had an EQ/WoW/EvE on ther hands (games that did NOT drop off and showed continued growth for years). But what the eneded up with was a modest success. Far from a failure, but not a mega hit and one that shows some scauses for concern
Thanks. That was a very simple and well-reasoned post. I agree with everything except that I think Trion's expectations were very high prior to launch...based on all we knew in the Rift community...which I joined almost two years before launch and spent a lot of time on. They were shooting squarely at a mass-market hit, drawing significantly from WoW's audience and also pulling in non-MMO players (very similar to WoW's strategy, as Trion saw it).
@Uhwop, Vonage had more than 300 million in debt when they did their IPO. The fact that you couldn't find it means you aren't good at internet searches. I found it in about 10 seconds, and that's why I used it as my example. I didn't pull it off the top of my head, I read it from an article online. Here's a couple quotes to help you -
The complaint filed against Vonage claims that the company's investors were motivated to push for an IPO because the company had been losing money, and the investors were desperate for an exit strategy.
The complaint alleges that Vonage's officers decided to offer shares to customers because they knew institutional investors who normally buy IPOs would be reluctant to buy Vonage stock. Vonage has consistently lost money and has never been profitable.
They won that lawsuit, apparently. The part in red wasn't part of the allegations in the suit, it was a statement of fact by the person who wrote the article.
Vonage certainly seems to have come out of things ok, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of shady crap was going on in the beginning (one of their main financiers is someone who is banned from stock trading for life), and it doesn't change the fact that they were way in the hole when they did their IPO.
And...regardless of the nature of Vonage's business, you asked me to demonstrate a company that did an IPO when they weren't doing well, and I did. Trion is obviously short on money because Rift isn't doing as well as they had hoped, and so they are thinking about the possibility of an IPO to raise more money.
Make sure you come by three months from now and report on how you're enjoying the game. I'll be interested to hear your opinion.
It's been fun hanging out over here for a bit...It will be interesting to wait and see what happens.
I think right now Rift probably isnt far off of what Trion expected. however with the good reviews, early word of mouth, and better than anticpated launch they likely assumed that Rift would be a big hit and accelerated some of their other projects (hiring more staff, etc). They could have thought they had an EQ/WoW/EvE on ther hands (games that did NOT drop off and showed continued growth for years). But what the eneded up with was a modest success. Far from a failure, but not a mega hit and one that shows some scauses for concern
Thanks. That was a very simple and well-reasoned post. I agree with everything except that I think Trion's expectations were very high prior to launch...based on all we knew in the Rift community...which I joined almost two years before launch and spent a lot of time on. They were shooting squarely at a mass-market hit, drawing significantly from WoW's audience and also pulling in non-MMO players (very similar to WoW's strategy, as Trion saw it).
@Uhwop, Vonage had more than 300 million in debt when they did their IPO. The fact that you couldn't find it means you aren't good at internet searches. I found it in about 10 seconds, and that's why I used it as my example. I didn't pull it off the top of my head, I read it from an article online. Here's a couple quotes to help you -
The complaint filed against Vonage claims that the company's investors were motivated to push for an IPO because the company had been losing money, and the investors were desperate for an exit strategy.
The complaint alleges that Vonage's officers decided to offer shares to customers because they knew institutional investors who normally buy IPOs would be reluctant to buy Vonage stock. Vonage has consistently lost money and has never been profitable.
They won that lawsuit, apparently. The part in red wasn't part of the allegations in the suit, it was a statement of fact by the person who wrote the article.
Vonage certainly seems to have come out of things ok, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of shady crap was going on in the beginning (one of their main financiers is someone who is banned from stock trading for life), and it doesn't change the fact that they were way in the hole when they did their IPO.
And...regardless of the nature of Vonage's business, you asked me to demonstrate a company that did an IPO when they weren't doing well, and I did. Trion is obviously short on money because Rift isn't doing as well as they had hoped, and so they are thinking about the possibility of an IPO to raise more money.
Make sure you come by three months from now and report on how you're enjoying the game. I'll be interested to hear your opinion.
It's been fun hanging out over here for a bit...It will be interesting to wait and see what happens.
I haven't even desided if I'm going to buy it yet or not. I have to take a few days and make sure my interests in it isn't mostly my own overwhelming boredom. Doesn't mean I didn't like what I saw, just that I can't afford to spend money on something I may get bored with a month later.
Seriously, I really didn't expect anyone to bring up vonage. They were like the Jack Abramoff of the telephone industry. Loose comparison obviously.
Originally posted by Uhwop I haven't even desided if I'm going to buy it yet or not. I have to take a few days and make sure my interests in it isn't mostly my own overwhelming boredom. Doesn't mean I didn't like what I saw, just that I can't afford to spend money on something I may get bored with a month later. Seriously, I really didn't expect anyone to bring up vonage. They were like the Jack Abramoff of the telephone industry. Loose comparison obviously.
Providing yourself with a nice escape hatch, there. Well...if you do end up buying it, I think you'll probably come to the same conclusion as most others have. You seem like a pretty sharp person.
In regards to the Vonage thing...all I can say is... If you don't want someone to try and kick the ball past you, don't position yourself in front of the goal. hehehe
Time for an economy lesson. Companies that go public do so because they want to raise collateral of interest made from sale of shares. Investments grow prospering companies and give them more leverage (money) to do more things.
Now a company that goes public opens it up to be evaluated. If a company is not on firm grounding, then to go public could ensure its doom. Basically mutual funds look into these things and purchase tech shares in their portfolio. They generally look for promosing new start ups to try and get in on the ground floor to make a modest investment that will ensure a return. If the company does not have the backing (confidence in the value of the company), then mutual funds will not invest. Rarely do large investment firms single out just one company to invest in. This means Trion Worlds will be evaluated with all other game companies in the market and a value placed - factoring on demand of shares. They must have good indications from their side that they will be valued well or they wouldn't be considering it.
I mean hitting the market at $20 a share, only to watch it drop to $2 a share would suck:)
Remember when Marvel went public (way back in the day before Disney bought them)?
They opened at $20 a share I think. By the next week they were $32 based on demand and then it leveled. The investment companies already got their invest earnings from the initial purchase and raised the share cost as a result. I'm sure quite a few of them sold them the next following year, once they posted it as an earning in their portfolio. Then the investment companies took something else to invest in the next following year. Trion might be banking on the success of Rift to encourage a modest investment for return. But they'll need to show numbers to back it up. With ToR around the corner, not sure what they should do.
As soon as subs drop off they have lost their main income stream.
If any MMO can loose 50% of its playerbase after the first 2-3 motnhs after launch, why do some people beleive it isn't likely that RIFT could easily loose a similar % of its current playerbase once SWTOR is released ?
You need an extra $30 or so over your RIFT sub to play the latest AAA rated MMORPG launched at Xmas and it requires no significant upgrade in hardware over RIFT.
I think I found your problem (took awhile, but we got it!).
You seem to associate the statement "needs cash" with "doing bad". That is a rather middle-class way of looking at money and business and I can only assume you have never owned one.
No one said Trion isn't "doing well", at least I didn't. They need cash. That's a totally different statement. Have you ever heard the term 'cash poor'? If not, look it up okay?
Trion has too many irons in the fire and needs CASH. Now. Rift is doing okay, but when you look at Trion's plate.. they need cash. It should be pretty obvious.
*raises hand* I was the one who said they aren't doing well.
What I've been saying all along is that Trion is not doing well in comparison to their own planning / projections. They were looking for Rift to be a mass-market hit (million+ subscribers, a contender with WoW, etc)...and to bring in big cash for their other endeavors. This did not turn out to be what happened...so in that context they are not doing well.
In terms of keeping the lights on and paying people, I'm sure they are okay for the moment. I think we agree that this potential IPO is a way to try and generate cash in order to get their various other projects off the ground...I'm just including the caveat that the reason they NEED more cash is because Rift isn't quite the golden goose they were planning on.
Originally posted by Uhwop
Do me a favor.
Show me a company that created an IPO because they weren't doing well. Go for it.
That's easy. Vonage. Look it up.
They were loosing money like crazy (something like 300 million in the red from their founding until their IPO due to infrastructure costs), and facing competition from the big telecoms in the VOIP market. So...they went public to raise much needed cash.
IPOs generate cash quickly, if you can convince investors that you are worth investing in. Since Rift is not providing the money they need to do all they want to do, they are looking at an IPO to get their other projects off the launching pad to hopefully become the big monster contender of a company that they want to be. As I said earlier...the biggest problem with this idea is their lack of a proven track record. They are looking at an IPO because Rift isn't doing nearly as well as they'd hoped, and people who might potentially invest in Trion are going to see that.
If your business is creating games, investors are going to want to see that you make games which are really good and successful. With Trion, investors will be looking at a company with a lot of promises, and one game that didn't live up to the hype. Not a recipe for a successful IPO...but Trion may have no choice.
I think right now Rift probably isnt far off of what Trion expected. however with the good reviews, early word of mouth, and better than anticpated launch they likely assumed that Rift would be a big hit and accelerated some of their other projects (hiring more staff, etc). They could have thought they had an EQ/WoW/EvE on ther hands (games that did NOT drop off and showed continued growth for years). But what the eneded up with was a modest success. Far from a failure, but not a mega hit and one that shows some scauses for concern
Do we have any data from Warhammer Online.
In many respects they tried to paper over the cracks and claim the game was succedding for months after it was clear most of its original subscribers had left.
They had some servers with ok populations and they were patching. They had staff saying publically that the game was doing OK and more improvements were in the pipeline. ?
In many respects they tried to paper over the cracks and claim the game was succedding for months after it was clear most of its original subscribers had left.
They had some servers with ok populations and they were patching. They had staff saying publically that the game was doing OK and more improvements were in the pipeline. ?
It became pretty clear that tons of people left that game in 2 months time. Most PQs were abandoned - PvP waned, etc.
I think Rift has a stronger retention because of the PvE in the game. PvP is only good with other people. PvE can hold off a drop of population better. That said I can honestly say that Rift's situation might end up like WAR, but no where as quick as it happened to WAR.
SWTOR will significantly impact Rift though, I'm pretty positive on this. The argument of a different genre is a straw man.
To be going public means that you'll be making money off selling shares, so they'll be able to pay for making more RIFT stuff and developing those two other games. That's grand! Makes me wanna buy shares in them in preparation for the boost that the share price will shoot up with new games and hopefully really good RIFT updates.
Then on the first page someone typed up RIFT having to compete with GW2, SWTOR... There are AMAZING games coming out excluding those two even. I was like 'Oh yeah...'
I can read the forums here on MMORPG.com, I know RIFT has a good backing so far and it's unlikely to be really left too far back when new games push into the market. I'm still quite unsure though.
Going public means we do get to see all those delicious numbers they've been swimming in since the start of RIFT. That's where I'll look to for some security.
Originally posted by Thunderballs Do we have any data from Warhammer Online.
From Wiki (for those who think it's sufficient enough for reference):
Warhammer Online initially received favorable reviews. GameSpy gave it 5 out of 5 stars and claimed, "[it] has hit the ground running with one of the best MMO experiences we've had in a long time.
"[28] GameSpot gave it a 8.5 out of 10 and said, "Questers and explorers may not find what they're looking for, and certain gameplay systems don't mesh as well as they should. Nevertheless, there's more than enough exciting PvP content here to keep newcomers and veterans alike immersed in the perpetually violent tug of war between the forces of Order and Destruction."[27]
Warhammer Online has an aggregate score of 86% on metacritic.com[24] and 87% GameRankings.com.[23]
As of September 30, 2008, WAR had sold 1.2 million copies and had 800,000 registered users.[31]
As of October 10, 2008, Mythic Entertainment announced that 750,000 people were playing Warhammer Online.[32]
As of December 31, 2008, the number of active WAR subscribers had decreased to "over 300,000 paying subscribers in North America and Europe."[33]
As of May 5, 2009, Electronic Arts executives confirmed in an investor conference that they have 300,000 subscribers as of the end of March 2009,[34] shortly after the company reported a loss of $1.08 billion in the financial year for 2009.[35] Consequently, the number of servers was drastically reduced[36] in order to consolidate the remaining population. The total number of servers was reduced to 13 and the number of role-playing servers was reduced to 1.[37]
Since this date, several servers were stopped, particularly in Europe, and there remained only 9 servers : 4 in the USA and 5 in Europe (including 2 in German & 1 in French).
As of February 9, 2011, 2 other U.S. Servers and 1 German server have been removed, leaving a total of 6 servers worldwide (2 in the US, 4 in Europe).[38]
Now there are four servers available to American, European and Oceanian players : two North-American Core and two European Core servers. The other servers have been shut down or merged into the currently existing servers due to underpopulation and merged with remaining servers.
In many respects they tried to paper over the cracks and claim the game was succedding for months after it was clear most of its original subscribers had left.
They had some servers with ok populations and they were patching. They had staff saying publically that the game was doing OK and more improvements were in the pipeline. ?
It became pretty clear that tons of people left that game in 2 months time. Most PQs were abandoned - PvP waned, etc.
I think Rift has a stronger retention because of the PvE in the game. PvP is only good with other people. PvE can hold off a drop of population better. That said I can honestly say that Rift's situation might end up like WAR, but no where as quick as it happened to WAR.
SWTOR will significantly impact Rift though, I'm pretty positive on this. The argument of a different genre is a straw man.
I am not as sure about SWToR affecting Rift. Rift has a pretty hard core raiding experience (actually Blizz is stealing fight ideas from them now). I see SWToR as more of a casuals game.
In many respects they tried to paper over the cracks and claim the game was succedding for months after it was clear most of its original subscribers had left.
They had some servers with ok populations and they were patching. They had staff saying publically that the game was doing OK and more improvements were in the pipeline. ?
It became pretty clear that tons of people left that game in 2 months time. Most PQs were abandoned - PvP waned, etc.
I think Rift has a stronger retention because of the PvE in the game. PvP is only good with other people. PvE can hold off a drop of population better. That said I can honestly say that Rift's situation might end up like WAR, but no where as quick as it happened to WAR.
SWTOR will significantly impact Rift though, I'm pretty positive on this. The argument of a different genre is a straw man.
I am not as sure about SWToR affecting Rift. Rift has a pretty hard core raiding experience (actually Blizz is stealing fight ideas from them now). I see SWToR as more of a casuals game.
I wouldn't mistake a hardcore raiding experience with a game that offers nothing BUT raiding at endgame. Trust me, if a game comes along that offers as much endgame raiding content as Rift, which won't be hard to do, in addition to offering a better all around game with better replayability, people will leave Rift in droves. SWTOR is offering just as much as Rift did at launch in terms of dungeons and raids, and more in terms of PvP. If they continue to add to that after launch, Rift is going to be hard-pressed to keep their subscribers when they can go to a game that has more to offer as a well-rounded MMO. Fact is, many, many player currently playing Rift are just biding their time waiting for SWTOR and/or GW2. Anyone that tells you differently doesn't know the Rift community very well. SWTOR is going to take a massive chunk out of Rift.
I am not as sure about SWToR affecting Rift. Rift has a pretty hard core raiding experience (actually Blizz is stealing fight ideas from them now). I see SWToR as more of a casuals game.
Hardcore raiders are a fairly small percentage of Rift's players. Rift is viewed by most as a casual game too, because thats what it is.
I don't see SWToR taking many players from Rift. Personally the 100-120 people I actively talk too ingame before Casual/Hardcore don't like SCI-FI games and are more into the medevil type of gameplay. I also have a few 50's on a couple of servers but my main is on Shatterbone a MED/MED server. I don't ever see any problems with population like I use to see in Warhammer and I played Warhmmer for 2 yrs and it was noticable after a few months. Rift is strong and will continue to grow because this is the ONLY mmo where the dev's actually listen... period.
I think TOR will suck in more RP types than any other demographic. I dont think it will affect Rift or WOW as much as some seem to think. Now games steeped in lore such as the EQ games and LOTRO ? yeah maybe. I just dont see most of the WOW and RIft players ive pleyed with leaving either game for TOR.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
I wouldn't mistake a hardcore raiding experience with a game that offers nothing BUT raiding at endgame. Trust me, if a game comes along that offers as much endgame raiding content as Rift, which won't be hard to do, in addition to offering a better all around game with better replayability, people will leave Rift in droves.
Fact is, many, many player currently playing Rift are just biding their time waiting for SWTOR and/or GW2. Anyone that tells you differently doesn't know the Rift community very well. SWTOR is going to take a massive chunk out of Rift.
Wow. Do you have any facts to back up all your claims? PvP/Dungeons/Raids and such for SWTOR?
Can you list them?
Let me tell you some facts.
Fact is Rift is a very well done Theme Park MMO.
Fact is Rift has an immense amount of end game dungeon/raids/rifts/chronicles to do now.
Fact is SWTOR will have a more difficult time keeping updates up like Rift, if they continue with their very well done VO driven storylines.
I get the feeling that you are a fanboy of SWTOR and hoping that what you say comes true by listing misinformation and vague preditions about something you clearly don't know about. Which is fine, but I wouldn't list your opinion as fact.
And if you think the Rift community is hanging out just waiting for SWTOR to come out, you don't know the community very well at all. They are most certainly waiting for GW2 though.
I wouldn't mistake a hardcore raiding experience with a game that offers nothing BUT raiding at endgame. Trust me, if a game comes along that offers as much endgame raiding content as Rift, which won't be hard to do, in addition to offering a better all around game with better replayability, people will leave Rift in droves.
Fact is, many, many player currently playing Rift are just biding their time waiting for SWTOR and/or GW2. Anyone that tells you differently doesn't know the Rift community very well. SWTOR is going to take a massive chunk out of Rift.
Wow. Do you have any facts to back up all your claims? PvP/Dungeons/Raids and such for SWTOR?
Can you list them?
Let me tell you some facts.
Fact is Rift is a very well done Theme Park MMO.
Fact is Rift has an immense amount of end game dungeon/raids/rifts/chronicles to do now.
Fact is SWTOR will have a more difficult time keeping updates up like Rift, if they continue with their very well done VO driven storylines.
Fact is you are a fanboy of SWTOR and hoping that what you say comes true by listing misinformation and vague preditions about something you clearly don't know about.
And if you think the Rift community is hanging out just waiting for SWTOR to come out, you don't know the community very well at all. They are most certainly waiting for GW2 though.
I wouldn't mistake a hardcore raiding experience with a game that offers nothing BUT raiding at endgame. Trust me, if a game comes along that offers as much endgame raiding content as Rift, which won't be hard to do, in addition to offering a better all around game with better replayability, people will leave Rift in droves.
Fact is, many, many player currently playing Rift are just biding their time waiting for SWTOR and/or GW2. Anyone that tells you differently doesn't know the Rift community very well. SWTOR is going to take a massive chunk out of Rift.
Wow. Do you have any facts to back up all your claims? PvP/Dungeons/Raids and such for SWTOR?
Can you list them?
Let me tell you some facts.
Fact is Rift is a very well done Theme Park MMO.
Fact is Rift has an immense amount of end game dungeon/raids/rifts/chronicles to do now.
Fact is SWTOR will have a more difficult time keeping updates up like Rift, if they continue with their very well done VO driven storylines.
Fact is you are a fanboy of SWTOR and hoping that what you say comes true by listing misinformation and vague preditions about something you clearly don't know about.
And if you think the Rift community is hanging out just waiting for SWTOR to come out, you don't know the community very well at all. They are most certainly waiting for GW2 though.
Facts based on your own biased opinion
Facts based on my own experiences + numerous articles that concede that Rift doesn't do anything new really, but does it well. They've also had 5 major updates in about 6 months with their biggest update coming in a few weeks. Almost every professional site has backed up everything that I stated.
Originally posted by watchawatcha Originally posted by Biggus99
I wouldn't mistake a hardcore raiding experience with a game that offers nothing BUT raiding at endgame. Trust me, if a game comes along that offers as much endgame raiding content as Rift, which won't be hard to do, in addition to offering a better all around game with better replayability, people will leave Rift in droves. Fact is, many, many player currently playing Rift are just biding their time waiting for SWTOR and/or GW2. Anyone that tells you differently doesn't know the Rift community very well. SWTOR is going to take a massive chunk out of Rift.
Wow. Do you have any facts to back up all your claims? PvP/Dungeons/Raids and such for SWTOR? Can you list them?
Let me tell you some facts. Fact is Rift is a very well done Theme Park MMO. This is opinion, not fact. Many people think Rift is a poorly done themepark because it's "missing" rides, or the rides they provide like the World Events, are buggy, broken and boring because they all resemble the last one. Look at the official forums now and how many people are saying they are bored in Rift. The PvPers alone are about to bolt en masse and just waiting for the exit because not only is there no open-world PvP going on, the constant nerfing act from the ex-Warhammer director Gershowitz is too much to deal with and FOTM classes, just like WAR.
Fact is Rift has an immense amount of end game dungeon/raids/rifts/chronicles to do now. Again, most people have done all of that and are waiting around for 1.6, which they will finish just as fast as they've done everything else. If someone was starting Rift now, then it would be a lot of content. But the fact is, anyone who's been playing Rift for any length of time has been able to keep pace and pass the next patches and get bored.
Fact is SWTOR will have a more difficult time keeping updates up like Rift, if they continue with their very well done VO driven storylines. Given that TOR will be releasing with more than two starting zones (unlike Rift), and providing many different alternating storylines (unlike Rift), along with a wide variety of activities to do AND.. a larger world and more content than Rift had at launch, this won't be a problem.
Fact is Rift is a very well done Theme Park MMO. This is opinion, not fact. Many people think Rift is a poorly done themepark because it's "missing" rides, or the rides they provide like the World Events, are buggy, broken and boring because they all resemble the last one. Look at the official forums now and how many people are saying they are bored in Rift. The PvPers alone are about to bolt en masse and just waiting for the exit because not only is there no open-world PvP going on, the constant nerfing act from the ex-Warhammer director Gershowitz is too much to deal with and FOTM classes, just like WAR.
Fact is Rift has an immense amount of end game dungeon/raids/rifts/chronicles to do now. Again, most people have done all of that and are waiting around for 1.6, which they will finish just as fast as they've done everything else. If someone was starting Rift now, then it would be a lot of content. But the fact is, anyone who's been playing Rift for any length of time has been able to keep pace and pass the next patches and get bored.
Fact is SWTOR will have a more difficult time keeping updates up like Rift, if they continue with their very well done VO driven storylines. Given that TOR will be releasing with more than two starting zones (unlike Rift), and providing many different alternating storylines (unlike Rift), along with a wide variety of activities to do AND.. a larger world and more content than Rift had at launch, this won't be a problem.
Almost every site including this one said that Rift had one of the smoothest and playable launches in recent MMO history. It was also one of the most smoothest Betas that anyone played. So Rift is a very well done Themepark MMO, based on that. I never said it was the most original.
You didn't dispute my claim that there's a lot of stuff for people to do now. Whether people have done the content or not or if it's content they want - doesn't matter. My statement is still true and is still based around fact.
Point #3 and the probable motivation for you jumping in on this convo in the first place.
Your beloved SWTOR is still going to have a heck of a time updating new content like Rift. Your rebuttal there did nothing to refute what I said. As for the content SWTOR will have at launch and the quality of it, I have no idea. But nor was any of that in my statement now was it?
I am not as sure about SWToR affecting Rift. Rift has a pretty hard core raiding experience (actually Blizz is stealing fight ideas from them now). I see SWToR as more of a casuals game.
Hardcore raiders are a fairly small percentage of Rift's players. Rift is viewed by most as a casual game too, because thats what it is.
Comments
I think right now Rift probably isnt far off of what Trion expected. however with the good reviews, early word of mouth, and better than anticpated launch they likely assumed that Rift would be a big hit and accelerated some of their other projects (hiring more staff, etc). They could have thought they had an EQ/WoW/EvE on ther hands (games that did NOT drop off and showed continued growth for years). But what the eneded up with was a modest success. Far from a failure, but not a mega hit and one that shows some scauses for concern
Money wise, it's a good thing since they can take advantage of many tax loop holes.
Company wise, it's a bad thing since they now have to cater to the stock holders.
Ready for GW2!!!
Thanks. That was a very simple and well-reasoned post. I agree with everything except that I think Trion's expectations were very high prior to launch...based on all we knew in the Rift community...which I joined almost two years before launch and spent a lot of time on. They were shooting squarely at a mass-market hit, drawing significantly from WoW's audience and also pulling in non-MMO players (very similar to WoW's strategy, as Trion saw it).
@Uhwop, Vonage had more than 300 million in debt when they did their IPO. The fact that you couldn't find it means you aren't good at internet searches. I found it in about 10 seconds, and that's why I used it as my example. I didn't pull it off the top of my head, I read it from an article online. Here's a couple quotes to help you -
http://news.cnet.com/Investors-sue-Vonage-over-IPO/2100-1036_3-6079765.html?tag=lia;rcol
They won that lawsuit, apparently. The part in red wasn't part of the allegations in the suit, it was a statement of fact by the person who wrote the article.
Vonage certainly seems to have come out of things ok, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of shady crap was going on in the beginning (one of their main financiers is someone who is banned from stock trading for life), and it doesn't change the fact that they were way in the hole when they did their IPO.
And...regardless of the nature of Vonage's business, you asked me to demonstrate a company that did an IPO when they weren't doing well, and I did. Trion is obviously short on money because Rift isn't doing as well as they had hoped, and so they are thinking about the possibility of an IPO to raise more money.
Make sure you come by three months from now and report on how you're enjoying the game. I'll be interested to hear your opinion.
It's been fun hanging out over here for a bit...It will be interesting to wait and see what happens.
I haven't even desided if I'm going to buy it yet or not. I have to take a few days and make sure my interests in it isn't mostly my own overwhelming boredom. Doesn't mean I didn't like what I saw, just that I can't afford to spend money on something I may get bored with a month later.
Seriously, I really didn't expect anyone to bring up vonage. They were like the Jack Abramoff of the telephone industry. Loose comparison obviously.
this is awesome news!!! hopefully rift will have both pandamen and cash shops by summer!
Providing yourself with a nice escape hatch, there.
Well...if you do end up buying it, I think you'll probably come to the same conclusion as most others have. You seem like a pretty sharp person.
In regards to the Vonage thing...all I can say is... If you don't want someone to try and kick the ball past you, don't position yourself in front of the goal. hehehe
Time for an economy lesson. Companies that go public do so because they want to raise collateral of interest made from sale of shares. Investments grow prospering companies and give them more leverage (money) to do more things.
Now a company that goes public opens it up to be evaluated. If a company is not on firm grounding, then to go public could ensure its doom. Basically mutual funds look into these things and purchase tech shares in their portfolio. They generally look for promosing new start ups to try and get in on the ground floor to make a modest investment that will ensure a return. If the company does not have the backing (confidence in the value of the company), then mutual funds will not invest. Rarely do large investment firms single out just one company to invest in. This means Trion Worlds will be evaluated with all other game companies in the market and a value placed - factoring on demand of shares. They must have good indications from their side that they will be valued well or they wouldn't be considering it.
I mean hitting the market at $20 a share, only to watch it drop to $2 a share would suck:)
Remember when Marvel went public (way back in the day before Disney bought them)?
They opened at $20 a share I think. By the next week they were $32 based on demand and then it leveled. The investment companies already got their invest earnings from the initial purchase and raised the share cost as a result. I'm sure quite a few of them sold them the next following year, once they posted it as an earning in their portfolio. Then the investment companies took something else to invest in the next following year. Trion might be banking on the success of Rift to encourage a modest investment for return. But they'll need to show numbers to back it up. With ToR around the corner, not sure what they should do.
I'll keep a neutral stance here, it might be good for them, or some bigger fish, but not for a small buyer for sure, its just too risky at this point.
As soon as subs drop off they have lost their main income stream.
If any MMO can loose 50% of its playerbase after the first 2-3 motnhs after launch, why do some people beleive it isn't likely that RIFT could easily loose a similar % of its current playerbase once SWTOR is released ?
You need an extra $30 or so over your RIFT sub to play the latest AAA rated MMORPG launched at Xmas and it requires no significant upgrade in hardware over RIFT.
Caveat Emptor
Do we have any data from Warhammer Online.
In many respects they tried to paper over the cracks and claim the game was succedding for months after it was clear most of its original subscribers had left.
They had some servers with ok populations and they were patching. They had staff saying publically that the game was doing OK and more improvements were in the pipeline. ?
Caveat Emptor
It became pretty clear that tons of people left that game in 2 months time. Most PQs were abandoned - PvP waned, etc.
I think Rift has a stronger retention because of the PvE in the game. PvP is only good with other people. PvE can hold off a drop of population better. That said I can honestly say that Rift's situation might end up like WAR, but no where as quick as it happened to WAR.
SWTOR will significantly impact Rift though, I'm pretty positive on this. The argument of a different genre is a straw man.
I voted that I'm not too sure about this.
To be going public means that you'll be making money off selling shares, so they'll be able to pay for making more RIFT stuff and developing those two other games. That's grand! Makes me wanna buy shares in them in preparation for the boost that the share price will shoot up with new games and hopefully really good RIFT updates.
Then on the first page someone typed up RIFT having to compete with GW2, SWTOR... There are AMAZING games coming out excluding those two even. I was like 'Oh yeah...'
I can read the forums here on MMORPG.com, I know RIFT has a good backing so far and it's unlikely to be really left too far back when new games push into the market. I'm still quite unsure though.
Going public means we do get to see all those delicious numbers they've been swimming in since the start of RIFT. That's where I'll look to for some security.
From Wiki (for those who think it's sufficient enough for reference):
"TO MICHAEL!"
Blizzard is a perfect example of why going public is a bad thing for the gamers and the game itself.
I am not as sure about SWToR affecting Rift. Rift has a pretty hard core raiding experience (actually Blizz is stealing fight ideas from them now). I see SWToR as more of a casuals game.
I wouldn't mistake a hardcore raiding experience with a game that offers nothing BUT raiding at endgame. Trust me, if a game comes along that offers as much endgame raiding content as Rift, which won't be hard to do, in addition to offering a better all around game with better replayability, people will leave Rift in droves. SWTOR is offering just as much as Rift did at launch in terms of dungeons and raids, and more in terms of PvP. If they continue to add to that after launch, Rift is going to be hard-pressed to keep their subscribers when they can go to a game that has more to offer as a well-rounded MMO. Fact is, many, many player currently playing Rift are just biding their time waiting for SWTOR and/or GW2. Anyone that tells you differently doesn't know the Rift community very well. SWTOR is going to take a massive chunk out of Rift.
Hardcore raiders are a fairly small percentage of Rift's players. Rift is viewed by most as a casual game too, because thats what it is.
I don't see SWToR taking many players from Rift. Personally the 100-120 people I actively talk too ingame before Casual/Hardcore don't like SCI-FI games and are more into the medevil type of gameplay. I also have a few 50's on a couple of servers but my main is on Shatterbone a MED/MED server. I don't ever see any problems with population like I use to see in Warhammer and I played Warhmmer for 2 yrs and it was noticable after a few months. Rift is strong and will continue to grow because this is the ONLY mmo where the dev's actually listen... period.
I think TOR will suck in more RP types than any other demographic. I dont think it will affect Rift or WOW as much as some seem to think. Now games steeped in lore such as the EQ games and LOTRO ? yeah maybe. I just dont see most of the WOW and RIft players ive pleyed with leaving either game for TOR.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
Wow. Do you have any facts to back up all your claims? PvP/Dungeons/Raids and such for SWTOR?
Can you list them?
Let me tell you some facts.
Fact is Rift is a very well done Theme Park MMO.
Fact is Rift has an immense amount of end game dungeon/raids/rifts/chronicles to do now.
Fact is SWTOR will have a more difficult time keeping updates up like Rift, if they continue with their very well done VO driven storylines.
I get the feeling that you are a fanboy of SWTOR and hoping that what you say comes true by listing misinformation and vague preditions about something you clearly don't know about. Which is fine, but I wouldn't list your opinion as fact.
And if you think the Rift community is hanging out just waiting for SWTOR to come out, you don't know the community very well at all. They are most certainly waiting for GW2 though.
Facts based on your own biased opinion
Facts based on my own experiences + numerous articles that concede that Rift doesn't do anything new really, but does it well. They've also had 5 major updates in about 6 months with their biggest update coming in a few weeks. Almost every professional site has backed up everything that I stated.
Can you list them?
Let me tell you some facts.
Fact is Rift is a very well done Theme Park MMO. This is opinion, not fact. Many people think Rift is a poorly done themepark because it's "missing" rides, or the rides they provide like the World Events, are buggy, broken and boring because they all resemble the last one. Look at the official forums now and how many people are saying they are bored in Rift. The PvPers alone are about to bolt en masse and just waiting for the exit because not only is there no open-world PvP going on, the constant nerfing act from the ex-Warhammer director Gershowitz is too much to deal with and FOTM classes, just like WAR.
Fact is Rift has an immense amount of end game dungeon/raids/rifts/chronicles to do now. Again, most people have done all of that and are waiting around for 1.6, which they will finish just as fast as they've done everything else. If someone was starting Rift now, then it would be a lot of content. But the fact is, anyone who's been playing Rift for any length of time has been able to keep pace and pass the next patches and get bored.
Fact is SWTOR will have a more difficult time keeping updates up like Rift, if they continue with their very well done VO driven storylines. Given that TOR will be releasing with more than two starting zones (unlike Rift), and providing many different alternating storylines (unlike Rift), along with a wide variety of activities to do AND.. a larger world and more content than Rift had at launch, this won't be a problem.
The things you listed were opinion, not fact.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Point #1
Almost every site including this one said that Rift had one of the smoothest and playable launches in recent MMO history. It was also one of the most smoothest Betas that anyone played. So Rift is a very well done Themepark MMO, based on that. I never said it was the most original.
Moving on to your rebuttal of point #2
You didn't dispute my claim that there's a lot of stuff for people to do now. Whether people have done the content or not or if it's content they want - doesn't matter. My statement is still true and is still based around fact.
Point #3 and the probable motivation for you jumping in on this convo in the first place.
Your beloved SWTOR is still going to have a heck of a time updating new content like Rift. Your rebuttal there did nothing to refute what I said. As for the content SWTOR will have at launch and the quality of it, I have no idea. But nor was any of that in my statement now was it?
yeah, Hammerknell is really easy