This talent change is just... just stupid. Cookie cutter builds are a problem? Alright, lets make it an even more dumbed down system where you need to choose! Guess what blizz, in the world of 'maximizing' a character, there are going to be things always picked and if anything there will be less builds to use. Sure cookie cutter builds were there before, but they will exist again. Now instead of having maybe 1 talent swap difference in adjustment, its more likely people will have the same exact build to maximize their character. Its basically Wow talents 1.0... with a lot less choices and variations. You made it from having 2 cookie cutter builds or variations in builds to 1, and pretty much just screwed over any 'unique' ability to a character. Sure cookie cutter builds existed, but this system that your trying to 'stop it' from happening is just making it worst. You pretty much did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem your claiming this to fix.
Overall, while I feel its stupid its not a big deal for end game. Sure you make less individuality but it really isn't that much of a crunch on gameplay. The problem is this change makes leveling feel like that much less of an accomplishment. You use to get 1 talent a level. This made it feel like you actually progressed in the game where you don't have an option like putting in stats. With the wotlk change, you took that down to 2 levels and pretty much made that feeling so much weaker. If it wasn't for adjusting quests and all, I'd bet you everyone would say leveling felt a lot worst in Wotlk.
With this change, you pretty much destroyed any sense of accomplishment. Now you level and, absolutely nothing happens. You get no reward, no sense of achievement, absolutely posatively zilch. There is a reason DDO had changed the way you level to give you essencially 'mini dings' so that you did feel like you actually progressed despite not having a level for a good length of time. This change pretty much makes you feel while leveling that you really have almost no control over your character. Your pretty much just playing along and once in a blue moon, you get to pick between three skills, most likely wanting to maximize for what you want to do so in many cases your going to pick the same options, where as before you could at the very least have some adjustment to how you built up and grabbed skills.
TLDR: Not a huge deal for end game, but for those leveling, you pretty much destroyed any sense of achievement in leveling. Making an aspect this game tends to faulter on that much more lack luster.
[quote]Please, don't make the system even more Fisher-Price! Give us more options, not LESS. Lets have some variety in classes and chars.[/quote]
If you think about it, this does give more variety then the current system. "Less is more" is a good expression here. Instead of being locked down to a specific tree as it is now, you get to freely pick from "core" skills from all 3 "tree's". I see allot of potential for more varied builds, and more fun making and testing them. Instead of "hmm should i pick 2% increased stats on X or 1 second reduced cooldowns on skill Y" you get "do i want an awesome X or an awesome Y". Whatever you pick, it defines your prefered playstyle. You either get a way to Shadow Step around, or a way to move faster alot more, for example, both with pro's and con's.
PvP balance could also take a turn to the better with this system. This way skills can be properly pitted against each other and then tweaked to balance, without the tweak affecting 100 other parameters.
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. The prior expansion dumbed the game down some, this just gives you very few options now. It is a complete dumb down now with little way to differentiate your character.
This talent change is just... just stupid. Cookie cutter builds are a problem? Alright, lets make it an even more dumbed down system where you need to choose! Guess what blizz, in the world of 'maximizing' a character, there are going to be things always picked and if anything there will be less builds to use. Sure cookie cutter builds were there before, but they will exist again. Now instead of having maybe 1 talent swap difference in adjustment, its more likely people will have the same exact build to maximize their character. Its basically Wow talents 1.0... with a lot less choices and variations. You made it from having 2 cookie cutter builds or variations in builds to 1, and pretty much just screwed over any 'unique' ability to a character. Sure cookie cutter builds existed, but this system that your trying to 'stop it' from happening is just making it worst. You pretty much did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem your claiming this to fix.
Overall, while I feel its stupid its not a big deal for end game. Sure you make less individuality but it really isn't that much of a crunch on gameplay. The problem is this change makes leveling feel like that much less of an accomplishment. You use to get 1 talent a level. This made it feel like you actually progressed in the game where you don't have an option like putting in stats. With the wotlk change, you took that down to 2 levels and pretty much made that feeling so much weaker. If it wasn't for adjusting quests and all, I'd bet you everyone would say leveling felt a lot worst in Wotlk.
With this change, you pretty much destroyed any sense of accomplishment. Now you level and, absolutely nothing happens. You get no reward, no sense of achievement, absolutely posatively zilch. There is a reason DDO had changed the way you level to give you essencially 'mini dings' so that you did feel like you actually progressed despite not having a level for a good length of time. This change pretty much makes you feel while leveling that you really have almost no control over your character. Your pretty much just playing along and once in a blue moon, you get to pick between three skills, most likely wanting to maximize for what you want to do so in many cases your going to pick the same options, where as before you could at the very least have some adjustment to how you built up and grabbed skills.
TLDR: Not a huge deal for end game, but for those leveling, you pretty much destroyed any sense of achievement in leveling. Making an aspect this game tends to faulter on that much more lack luster.
I've never leveled for talent dings. It used to be every level and you got skills as well. We still get skills and we'll get even more skills every level because everyone gets the skills we WOULD have achieved from talents and we get them at level up instead when this goes live. No loss in accomplishment. The thing this changed is that we will have a better versatility and instead of giving us a choice, we get to choose tank, heal, or dps on hybrids, what style of dps on dpsers like mages and hunters, and such like that. All they did was change it so that instead of giving the illusion of choice, we just play. Instead of a cookie cutter build, we get pre-cut cookies, in a sense. It's the same thing. Most skills will be given at level up instead and we'll get to choose how we want to play at any given moment.
I think it's a much better idea to give us versatility and the ability to change back and forth with ease rather than having to go through respecs over and over. 80% of players were bitching that 1 spec wasn't enough, so they added dual spec. People started bitching that dual spec wasn't enough and they didn't feel like there really was an actual choice in talents and they give us this. Now people are bitching that they are giving us this. The majority complains about the hard parts of the game and they make them easier, just to have people scream "Dumbed down!". People complaining is how NGE happened in SWG. After NGE people complained about it even though it was a move to appease the players. If you're not careful, you guys will get a wow NGE, because no one's ever happy with a change. Wow changes one way and everyone complains. It changes another and everyone complains.
Wrath was overly easy because people complained about the difficulty. Cataclysm comes out and people complain HEAVILY about the difficulty of cata heroics. What happened to cata heroics? They got "dumbed down" and don't even require any real thought or CC. As a company, it's good business sense to change based off what the majority wants. If 20% of the players want soemthing and the other 80% don't, it wouldn't do well for them to alienate 80% to appease 20%. Economics 101.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
Did I read right? This is too be only the 4th expansion? That seems like a low # of expansions for the length of time game has been out and the amount of money they have to spend on it. You'd think they would give more back to the millions of subscribers. EQ had more in shorter time with much lower subs, even ddo at F2P has more. Maybe I'm missing something, like other ways of adding content.
Cata talent system was fine if they followed through with Path of Titans, which unfortunately they didn't. This new talent system is like glyphs 2.0 but more restricted, which I think is pretty bland, and offers little choice.
What I think they should do is keep Cata talent system, glyphs, but bring back path of Titans. Yes Path of Titans offered homogeniety, but it was a choice if a player wanted mobility, dps, etc. to round out their character.
In addition, some people would rather have an extra DPS talent over mobility, etc. Now that choice is gone with the new talent trees.
Lets look at the Rogue tree for example:
1st tier: Stealth talents
2nd tier: Survivability
3rd tier: Survivability
4th tier: Mobility
5th tier: Utility
6th tier: DPS talents
Currently in Cata, a Sub rogue has both Prep and Shadow step for mobility/survivability. A sub rogue can also choose cheath death and recuperate if they want. Now that is gone.
A Combat rogue can have CR and Deadly Throw but now that is gone.
Yes it helps with the weaknesses of Combat, Assassination and Sub by rounding them out more, but in the end that leads to the specs playing a lot like each other. So, now they have extended that sore point of the rogue trees to other classes which is why there is a lukewarm receptions to the tress.
Yeah and I hear that Baskin Robbins 31 flavors believing that sales were down due to so much customer indecision when choosing their favorite flavor of ice cream was keeping customers away, has now changed their format to Baskin Robbins 6 flavors. That should really get those cones once again selling like hotcakes.
They would if large numbers of the customers stood around yelling that Flavour 22 is the only one you can pick for eating in a group, while Flavour 17 was the only one you could pick for eating on your own, and that you have to take sprinkles because pieces of oreo made you gimp.
Bravo to Blizz for not letting min/maxers run their game. Keep changing the talent system as often as possible so people are alwyas having to re-learn the system. At least then those of us who enjoy playing a CHARACTER, not the same exact Pally/Lock/Priest as every other one, can just rechoose our talents and move on.
In the end, Casual Gamers and Hardcore Gamers spend the same amount on their Sub. 100 Casuals is better than 10 Hardcores.
Did I read right? This is too be only the 4th expansion? That seems like a low # of expansions for the length of time game has been out and the amount of money they have to spend on it. You'd think they would give more back to the millions of subscribers. EQ had more in shorter time with much lower subs, even ddo at F2P has more. Maybe I'm missing something, like other ways of adding content.
I played EQ from release until 5 years after release. The amount of content in each expansion was barely anything and they released one every few months, charging full price for each. I actually quit at the five year mark because I couldn't keep up in the slightest. (at their five year mark they had only release about 4 expansions actually. Velious, kunark, pop, and gates of discord, I believe.) Wow releases free content updates in place of 3/4 of what could be expansions for and even higher amount of content. I've NEVER heard someone say WoW was short on content and this is a first for me. DDO released all of their expansions / content updates for free at first, had an okay amount of content per, yet wasn't making the amount of money they needed and instead changed payment models. You now have to pay for any content (or grind favor for it for an ungodly amount of time). I wouldn't compare their model or releases and the amount of money you have to spend there to Wow.
Also, everyone saying they are going to quit over this expansion, it doesn't mean much. Only like 1/100 peopel that publicly profess their "intentions" of quitting actually quit. They take the content they thought they'd hate, come up with something for why they now love it (or tolerate it) and don't do anything. I'm sure WoW expansion 5 will introduce a new race of walking poop (with Blizz's history of poop jokes and quests I'm sure this isn't a stretch) and people will take it and talk about how amazing the class' racials are. At first they will complain about it though.
I personally quit a good while ago, but it had nothing to do with the changes made, nor did I do it publicly. It was because the entire game is a skinner box and the amount of operant conditioning used is ridiculous. (After farming the vial of sands recipe for 5 days, 12 hours a day, I realized I couldn't grind any longer. The recipe wasn't worth it, nor was any game worth that amount of time or unentertaining grinding spent.) My wife still plays though and I still carry an interest in what happens in game.
My only real gripe was that there arew all of these changes, whether I like them or not, yet they STILL have not added a dye system to the armor like so many of their competitors have. That's such an amazing system and feels very rewarding, yet there still isn't one in game.
Edit: I quit EQ when the expansions started coming every few months, at full price, with hardly any content. Kunark, Velious and POP were released sparingly and had boat loads of content. The following ones began the decline.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
Seems like Blizzard is just re-arranging stuff vs actually creating new stuff. Maybe it's better, maybe it's not. Seems more like a business decision than a game decision to me.
Articles on the subject should also address what happens in between getting something cool every 15 levels. There seems to be a big gap in character progression from the way this article was written.
Yeah and I hear that Baskin Robbins 31 flavors believing that sales were down due to so much customer indecision when choosing their favorite flavor of ice cream was keeping customers away, has now changed their format to Baskin Robbins 6 flavors. That should really get those cones once again selling like hotcakes.
This would only be a valid comment if Baskin Robbins had 31 flavors and 25 of them tasted like the devil's taint. That's the current system we face right now in WoW's current talent system.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
Seems like Blizzard is just re-arranging stuff vs actually creating new stuff. Maybe it's better, maybe it's not. Seems more like a business decision than a game decision to me.
Articles on the subject should also address what happens in between getting something cool every 15 levels. There seems to be a big gap in character progression from the way this article was written.
It is a more of a business decision than a gaming decision.
MM confirmed that the majority of players that start playing WoW fail to reach the level cap. This was the point of the Cataclysm re-design of the leveling to entice these type of players to reach the end cap (end game acitivites). MM conceded that it had generated mixed results but also feedback from existing players that end game was neglected (eg not enough heroics).
The new talent system is designed to be merely speed bumps, even more so than Cata as reaching end game will become even easier in MoP than Cata.
I don't like it because I think the magic of WoW was the leveling along with the end game. Almost all MMORPG's have a combination of both, but when one tends to dominate another it leads to bordeom IMVHO.
It's not builds that restrict access to end game, it's gear. Once you get the levels you can respec and make whatever you are playing 'the build'... but you're still going to be in garbage trying to cobble together a group to get last years tier gear just so you can get in a group to get the next tier and then nect tier, and then net tier until you have tier bazillion and can finally be allowed to raid.
Most people give up long before that unless they have a TON of help.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
The Talent tree system was good for 60 levels. Once they began adding levels they realized their mistake. How many buttons can you actually have on your action bar after all.
This is Blizz's attempt to fix a mistake that they created back in Vanilla. After all the Talent system was so bad that with each expansion they have to overhaul it.
If this doesn't fix the problem then, look for Blizz to just get rid of the whole talen tree system all together and try something new.
On a side note, In vanilla I used to take talents from different trees. If I liked a fury talent I would take it, if I liked an arms talent I would take it. This new system allows you to do that unlike the current system where you can't mix and match until you have first maxed out one tree. I am probably going to like the new system better than what we have now but that isn't saying much.
Yeah and I hear that Baskin Robbins 31 flavors believing that sales were down due to so much customer indecision when choosing their favorite flavor of ice cream was keeping customers away, has now changed their format to Baskin Robbins 6 flavors. That should really get those cones once again selling like hotcakes.
This would only be a valid comment if Baskin Robbins had 31 flavors and 25 of them tasted like the devil's taint. That's the current system we face right now in WoW's current talent system.
Originally posted by RaikoLives
Originally posted by Tardcore
Yeah and I hear that Baskin Robbins 31 flavors believing that sales were down due to so much customer indecision when choosing their favorite flavor of ice cream was keeping customers away, has now changed their format to Baskin Robbins 6 flavors. That should really get those cones once again selling like hotcakes.
They would if large numbers of the customers stood around yelling that Flavour 22 is the only one you can pick for eating in a group, while Flavour 17 was the only one you could pick for eating on your own, and that you have to take sprinkles because pieces of oreo made you gimp.
Bravo to Blizz for not letting min/maxers run their game. Keep changing the talent system as often as possible so people are alwyas having to re-learn the system. At least then those of us who enjoy playing a CHARACTER, not the same exact Pally/Lock/Priest as every other one, can just rechoose our talents and move on.
In the end, Casual Gamers and Hardcore Gamers spend the same amount on their Sub. 100 Casuals is better than 10 Hardcores.
Actually the real problem is that the wow devs created the game mechanics, that made these other flavors unsuitible, and also created the sneering clique of cool kids, that those players who only want to create and play their character their way must conform to in order to be able to experience almost all of the end game content.
In other words if you like tutti frutti you are f**ked because unless you order almond crunch, the cool kids won't even let you through the door, or throw you back out into the street when they realise you aren't one of their souless zombie sycophants, even when they don't even own the f**king store. By making this change Blizzard isn't helping the casuals, they are once again catering to the to the elitest f**ks so they don't have to listen to Erkel bitch anymore becuase the cool kids never throw him the ball.
Once again Blizz opts to let a smaller percentage of the player base determine how everyone else plays the game.
If you are content for them to force you to wear a stright jacket in order to be allowed into the party, more power to you. Me, I'll go find something less boring and constricting.
The Blizzstapo: "Vee haff vays hof makingik you game."
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
So i don't sound like i am picking on Wow i will say that i don't agree with ANY game making changes like this.IMO it is pretty much saying you made a mistake before and then where does it end?This is not a change after say 2 months into release,this is several years later and doesn't make sense.Once you start making cahnges like this years into release it is a guarantee you can't trust your developer and will make yet more chages over and over again.
I do agree that it is ALWAYS a good idea to try and improve your game but not in the form of overhauls or restructuring.The reason is becuase when i jolin a game ,i want THAT game i don't wan t to feel like every update i might have a totally different game.Even though i would accept it more if done soon after release,that still shows the developer released a game design that was not tested properly,Blizzard is not alone,most developers care more about rushing a game and making profits than to make sure they have tested and built a game that works from day 1.
I do like tweaks but not tweaks to individual classes but more tweaks designed to improve the entire game as a whole affecting everyone at the same time.
One thing that has been incredibly obviosu to me is the constant back n forth Wow><Eq2 copying.Eq2 did just an exact similiar restructuring and when al lwas said and done it did not do a single thing to any of my players.The over haul in EQ2 did exactly what i don't like it affected mainly one certain type of class the pet classes.Honestly Blizzard and SOE need to quit reacting and copying each others every move it is getting pathetic,they need to think for themselves for ONCE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
[quote]Please, don't make the system even more Fisher-Price! Give us more options, not LESS. Lets have some variety in classes and chars.[/quote]
If you think about it, this does give more variety then the current system. "Less is more" is a good expression here. Instead of being locked down to a specific tree as it is now, you get to freely pick from "core" skills from all 3 "tree's". I see allot of potential for more varied builds, and more fun making and testing them. Instead of "hmm should i pick 2% increased stats on X or 1 second reduced cooldowns on skill Y" you get "do i want an awesome X or an awesome Y". Whatever you pick, it defines your prefered playstyle. You either get a way to Shadow Step around, or a way to move faster alot more, for example, both with pro's and con's.
PvP balance could also take a turn to the better with this system. This way skills can be properly pitted against each other and then tweaked to balance, without the tweak affecting 100 other parameters.
Really? I see even more of the same. You will have your raiding build and your PvP or Solo build. Then if they make it easier to change talents (like glyphs...on the fly) you will have your specific builds for specific encounters.
This isnt blizzards fault or ineptitude either. No matter what in a number based game with a talent type system to improve skills there will always be cookie cutter builds. The only way to get around it is for talents to be fluff only.
Actually the real problem is that the wow devs created the game mechanics, that made these other flavors unsuitible, and also created the sneering clique of cool kids, that those players who only want to create and play their character their way must conform to in order to be able to experience almost all of the end game content.
In other words if you like tutti frutti you are f**ked because unless you order almond crunch, the cool kids won't even let you through the door, or throw you back out into the street when they realise you aren't one of their souless zombie sycophants, even when they don't even own the f**king store. By making this change Blizzard isn't helping the casuals, they are once again catering to the to the elitest f**ks so they don't have to listen to Erkel bitch anymore becuase the cool kids never throw him the ball.
Once again Blizz opts to let a smaller percentage of the player base determine how everyone else plays the game.
If you are content for them to force you to wear a stright jacket in order to be allowed into the party, more power to you. Me, I'll go find something less boring and constricting.
The Blizzstapo: "Vee haff vays hof makingik you game."
Um... what? No, it's not about "cool kids" at all. If one person does 10k dps in a dungeon that requires 3 people with 15k+ dps to survive or a raid that requires every dpser to have 15k dps, then the person doing 10k dps is hindering the raid/group. The other people in the group shouldn't have to make up that person's 5k dps because that person wanted a "unique" talent spec. If a tank dies in 3 hits because they didn't put points into the end-all be-all tank ability that prevents soandso damage, then the healer can't heal them quickly enough. If the healer runs out of mana every 30 seconds because they didn't get their talent to help mana conservation because they wanted to be unique, then everyone dies.
If you don't like thinking about the group first instead of yourself and how "unique you are" then you should be soloing. Just like in real life, no one should have to pick up your slack because you don't "feel" like being efficient. "I like this ability because it looks cool and fits my character better." Then you go use that aoe on one target and don't use any other ability, thus giving you a 2k dps score when that boss needed at least 10k per player. That's selfish to expect other people to make up your 8k otherwise you'll call them elitist and tell them how bad they are. In a single player game, do you use the ability that does no damage to your enemy while you die? If we're only talking about 1 or two points not in the best spots then it's no problem and most people don't refuse a eprson from a group based off that. People refuse a person if their spec is so whacked out and they pull such low dps that they hinder a group. That doesn't make them elitist or bad because they don't feel like wasting their time.
It's all about math, nothing to do with being cool or not. Blizz can't do anything about that and the players shouldn't be called elitist if the raid keeps wiping because 3 people in the raid are pulling hardly any dps and they can't beat the enrage timer. The new change isn't "hindering" casuals in the slightest, it's making it so they can't make a mistake and so that if they're pulling low dps with the new system, then they just fail at the game. If a tank dies, it'd be more because he failed to pop his defensive spells or didn't grab enough aggro in time before the healer went down, instead of not placing a point in something crucial. (Or every one of them had crappy gear,)
This game employs a lot of math at the higher ends and 4+4=8 is always going to be a higher value than 2+2=4. You can say that "people can get away with unique specs and all it takes is patience and anyone that disagrees is an elitist ass", but you're wrong. No one wants to go to a raid, die for 4 hours because they don't have a tank with enoug health, a healer with enough mana, or enough dps, when people could just spec properly and make it 4 hours of pure gain. I don't walk into a wall over and over because I'm trying to be "unique", I walk around the wall because it's more efficient and because dragging other people into the wall with me is just screwed up. This change removes the wall. It helps the casuals in so many ways because it removes the ability to screw up your spec in the slightest. Now if they could stop them from choosing intellect gear on a warrior we'd be golden.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
Question: So there no Dual spec anymore? Like I cant Have a Pally spec in Ret & Prot?
If I understand correctly. You still choose your role, ex warriors can be Arms, Fury and Prot. Based on that decision, you will automatically obtain certain spells/skills at certain levels. Basically, you get the "cookie cutter" build as you level now. So, at level 20 a prot warrior might get Improved Thunderclap or Incite, while an Arms warrior gets Sweeping Strikes (former talents). Which then opens up talents to be more flavor choices.
Like, the final tier for warriors allows them to take Bladestorm, Shockwave or Avatar. All 3 roles can make use of any one of those talents (prot bladestorm, or a fury shockwave).
In essence, you could make a more offensive minded tank, or a defensive minded DPS.
So every 15 levels you can select a talent, but inbetween you still obtain new skills.
So yes, dual spec should still exist, so you can select two of the three roles your class can play (or two of the three flavors of DPS for the pure classes).
Also, bear in mind that the talents shown at Blizzcon were most placed as examples, and I remember reading that they most likely will change before the 5.0 patch.
Basically, don't freak out quite yet, because we haven't seen the final product. This is also coming from someone who has had a sub for over 6 years now, so I obviously still like the game, and I am part of a vocal minorty of folks who don't mind the whole Pandaria thing :P
A lot of you are missing the point here. Blizzard is basically trying to force the players whether they PvP, Raid or both to pick their build based on how they play not what they are playing for. And I for one hope they succeed. Too many times developers make mmos with a diverse set of classes and give those classes great potential to shine with their players just to have min/maxers come in and dictate what is acceptable for raids, PvP, leveling, soloing, grouping and anything else associated with the game. And too often you need a build for each one.
I mean how often do you hear others asking:
Hey, what's the best class for soloing?
What class is needed more for endgame?
Which class is best for PvP?
What is the class and build to get the most groups?
I hear it all the time. I mean is it not more important to pick a class you seem to like and be helpful when you solo, in a group, during a PvP encounter AND during a raid? More importantly isn't it better to be all these things without having to be told you have the wrong class to do any of those things based on your build?
If you think about it, if Blizzard can reprogram the masses to think about the player/class more than the class/build, I think a lot of these attitudes about min/maxing, endgame, PvP and solo vs. grouping can be changed. I mean we all want more players playing right? At least I think we do, because that golden age group of gamers you grew up with in UO, DAoC, AC or EQ ain't gettin any younger. And since a lot of the older players are always finding ways to avoid younger gamers rather than teach them, it's now up to developers to teach the younger gen how to 'role' play.
That is pick a cool class, don't pick a class to fit in.
As summer comes to a close and I spend more and more time within the warm confines of my home, I have been tossing around the thought of resubbing to WoW. When I heard about Blizz's offer of free D3 with a year's WoW sub, I thought it sounded like a pretty good deal. I'm okay with most of the new features for the upcoming xpack; the monk class is long overdue IMO and one I've wanted to see since the first time I logged into WoW back in 2004. Personally, the Pandarian race and Pokémon battles don't really interest me, but I could still play the game without either of those being forced upon me.
The new talent system, however, is a total dealbreaker. As if the Cata system wasn't already dumbed-down enough, they have to go make it even more idiot-proof... and I guarantee, this will not balance the different specs. Theorycrafters will still be finding specs that top the DPS, tanking, and healing charts in raids. Each class will still have a particular spec grossly overrepresented in arena, and a slightly different spec in battlegrounds. The only difference is now a player is even more locked into a single tree, and doesn't get a few optional points that make only a nominal difference in effectiveness to put into whatever utility suits his playstyle.
You know this was a changed due to Rift. Rift is kicking butt with a class system that's fun and loaded with options. At that same time WoW came out with a harsh talent system and started losing subs. Was one of the big reasons we left WoW. If swtor dose not work out I may just give WoW a second chance. I love a lot of freedom in how my char plays and can spec him. Would still be playing Rift if swtor was not Star Wars.
You know this was a changed due to Rift. Rift is kicking butt with a class system that's fun and loaded with options. At that same time WoW came out with a harsh talent system and started losing subs. Was one of the big reasons we left WoW. If swtor dose not work out I may just give WoW a second chance. I love a lot of freedom in how my char plays and can spec him. Would still be playing Rift if swtor was not Star Wars.
Maybe. It might be that the future of MMOs is about few or no classes and plenty of customization instead of the many but pretty rigid classes of Everquest.
I hope personally that someone mixes all this with Guildwars idea of selecting your own skills from a list, it have a lot of potential and you suddenly could have many more options. While GWs PvP have better and worse combos there are still a lot more useful combos and room for individuality there than in Wows original talent system even though you just have 8 skills at the same time.
Mixing those things make sense, MMOs needs give the players more options about how they want to play their characters and you can see that all the newly released and upcomming games try to do that one way or another.
Comments
This talent change is just... just stupid. Cookie cutter builds are a problem? Alright, lets make it an even more dumbed down system where you need to choose! Guess what blizz, in the world of 'maximizing' a character, there are going to be things always picked and if anything there will be less builds to use. Sure cookie cutter builds were there before, but they will exist again. Now instead of having maybe 1 talent swap difference in adjustment, its more likely people will have the same exact build to maximize their character. Its basically Wow talents 1.0... with a lot less choices and variations. You made it from having 2 cookie cutter builds or variations in builds to 1, and pretty much just screwed over any 'unique' ability to a character. Sure cookie cutter builds existed, but this system that your trying to 'stop it' from happening is just making it worst. You pretty much did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem your claiming this to fix.
Overall, while I feel its stupid its not a big deal for end game. Sure you make less individuality but it really isn't that much of a crunch on gameplay. The problem is this change makes leveling feel like that much less of an accomplishment. You use to get 1 talent a level. This made it feel like you actually progressed in the game where you don't have an option like putting in stats. With the wotlk change, you took that down to 2 levels and pretty much made that feeling so much weaker. If it wasn't for adjusting quests and all, I'd bet you everyone would say leveling felt a lot worst in Wotlk.
With this change, you pretty much destroyed any sense of accomplishment. Now you level and, absolutely nothing happens. You get no reward, no sense of achievement, absolutely posatively zilch. There is a reason DDO had changed the way you level to give you essencially 'mini dings' so that you did feel like you actually progressed despite not having a level for a good length of time. This change pretty much makes you feel while leveling that you really have almost no control over your character. Your pretty much just playing along and once in a blue moon, you get to pick between three skills, most likely wanting to maximize for what you want to do so in many cases your going to pick the same options, where as before you could at the very least have some adjustment to how you built up and grabbed skills.
TLDR: Not a huge deal for end game, but for those leveling, you pretty much destroyed any sense of achievement in leveling. Making an aspect this game tends to faulter on that much more lack luster.
Nope because no more specs. Your talents are your talents and they are "gemmed" like glyphs.
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Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. The prior expansion dumbed the game down some, this just gives you very few options now. It is a complete dumb down now with little way to differentiate your character.
I've never leveled for talent dings. It used to be every level and you got skills as well. We still get skills and we'll get even more skills every level because everyone gets the skills we WOULD have achieved from talents and we get them at level up instead when this goes live. No loss in accomplishment. The thing this changed is that we will have a better versatility and instead of giving us a choice, we get to choose tank, heal, or dps on hybrids, what style of dps on dpsers like mages and hunters, and such like that. All they did was change it so that instead of giving the illusion of choice, we just play. Instead of a cookie cutter build, we get pre-cut cookies, in a sense. It's the same thing. Most skills will be given at level up instead and we'll get to choose how we want to play at any given moment.
I think it's a much better idea to give us versatility and the ability to change back and forth with ease rather than having to go through respecs over and over. 80% of players were bitching that 1 spec wasn't enough, so they added dual spec. People started bitching that dual spec wasn't enough and they didn't feel like there really was an actual choice in talents and they give us this. Now people are bitching that they are giving us this. The majority complains about the hard parts of the game and they make them easier, just to have people scream "Dumbed down!". People complaining is how NGE happened in SWG. After NGE people complained about it even though it was a move to appease the players. If you're not careful, you guys will get a wow NGE, because no one's ever happy with a change. Wow changes one way and everyone complains. It changes another and everyone complains.
Wrath was overly easy because people complained about the difficulty. Cataclysm comes out and people complain HEAVILY about the difficulty of cata heroics. What happened to cata heroics? They got "dumbed down" and don't even require any real thought or CC. As a company, it's good business sense to change based off what the majority wants. If 20% of the players want soemthing and the other 80% don't, it wouldn't do well for them to alienate 80% to appease 20%. Economics 101.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
Did I read right? This is too be only the 4th expansion? That seems like a low # of expansions for the length of time game has been out and the amount of money they have to spend on it. You'd think they would give more back to the millions of subscribers. EQ had more in shorter time with much lower subs, even ddo at F2P has more. Maybe I'm missing something, like other ways of adding content.
Cata talent system was fine if they followed through with Path of Titans, which unfortunately they didn't. This new talent system is like glyphs 2.0 but more restricted, which I think is pretty bland, and offers little choice.
What I think they should do is keep Cata talent system, glyphs, but bring back path of Titans. Yes Path of Titans offered homogeniety, but it was a choice if a player wanted mobility, dps, etc. to round out their character.
In addition, some people would rather have an extra DPS talent over mobility, etc. Now that choice is gone with the new talent trees.
Lets look at the Rogue tree for example:
1st tier: Stealth talents
2nd tier: Survivability
3rd tier: Survivability
4th tier: Mobility
5th tier: Utility
6th tier: DPS talents
Currently in Cata, a Sub rogue has both Prep and Shadow step for mobility/survivability. A sub rogue can also choose cheath death and recuperate if they want. Now that is gone.
A Combat rogue can have CR and Deadly Throw but now that is gone.
Yes it helps with the weaknesses of Combat, Assassination and Sub by rounding them out more, but in the end that leads to the specs playing a lot like each other. So, now they have extended that sore point of the rogue trees to other classes which is why there is a lukewarm receptions to the tress.
They would if large numbers of the customers stood around yelling that Flavour 22 is the only one you can pick for eating in a group, while Flavour 17 was the only one you could pick for eating on your own, and that you have to take sprinkles because pieces of oreo made you gimp.
Bravo to Blizz for not letting min/maxers run their game. Keep changing the talent system as often as possible so people are alwyas having to re-learn the system. At least then those of us who enjoy playing a CHARACTER, not the same exact Pally/Lock/Priest as every other one, can just rechoose our talents and move on.
In the end, Casual Gamers and Hardcore Gamers spend the same amount on their Sub. 100 Casuals is better than 10 Hardcores.
I played EQ from release until 5 years after release. The amount of content in each expansion was barely anything and they released one every few months, charging full price for each. I actually quit at the five year mark because I couldn't keep up in the slightest. (at their five year mark they had only release about 4 expansions actually. Velious, kunark, pop, and gates of discord, I believe.) Wow releases free content updates in place of 3/4 of what could be expansions for and even higher amount of content. I've NEVER heard someone say WoW was short on content and this is a first for me. DDO released all of their expansions / content updates for free at first, had an okay amount of content per, yet wasn't making the amount of money they needed and instead changed payment models. You now have to pay for any content (or grind favor for it for an ungodly amount of time). I wouldn't compare their model or releases and the amount of money you have to spend there to Wow.
Also, everyone saying they are going to quit over this expansion, it doesn't mean much. Only like 1/100 peopel that publicly profess their "intentions" of quitting actually quit. They take the content they thought they'd hate, come up with something for why they now love it (or tolerate it) and don't do anything. I'm sure WoW expansion 5 will introduce a new race of walking poop (with Blizz's history of poop jokes and quests I'm sure this isn't a stretch) and people will take it and talk about how amazing the class' racials are. At first they will complain about it though.
I personally quit a good while ago, but it had nothing to do with the changes made, nor did I do it publicly. It was because the entire game is a skinner box and the amount of operant conditioning used is ridiculous. (After farming the vial of sands recipe for 5 days, 12 hours a day, I realized I couldn't grind any longer. The recipe wasn't worth it, nor was any game worth that amount of time or unentertaining grinding spent.) My wife still plays though and I still carry an interest in what happens in game.
My only real gripe was that there arew all of these changes, whether I like them or not, yet they STILL have not added a dye system to the armor like so many of their competitors have. That's such an amazing system and feels very rewarding, yet there still isn't one in game.
Edit: I quit EQ when the expansions started coming every few months, at full price, with hardly any content. Kunark, Velious and POP were released sparingly and had boat loads of content. The following ones began the decline.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
Seems like Blizzard is just re-arranging stuff vs actually creating new stuff. Maybe it's better, maybe it's not. Seems more like a business decision than a game decision to me.
Articles on the subject should also address what happens in between getting something cool every 15 levels. There seems to be a big gap in character progression from the way this article was written.
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
This would only be a valid comment if Baskin Robbins had 31 flavors and 25 of them tasted like the devil's taint. That's the current system we face right now in WoW's current talent system.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
It is a more of a business decision than a gaming decision.
MM confirmed that the majority of players that start playing WoW fail to reach the level cap. This was the point of the Cataclysm re-design of the leveling to entice these type of players to reach the end cap (end game acitivites). MM conceded that it had generated mixed results but also feedback from existing players that end game was neglected (eg not enough heroics).
The new talent system is designed to be merely speed bumps, even more so than Cata as reaching end game will become even easier in MoP than Cata.
I don't like it because I think the magic of WoW was the leveling along with the end game. Almost all MMORPG's have a combination of both, but when one tends to dominate another it leads to bordeom IMVHO.
with any talent system there will allways be a "best" spec
slybacongaming.blogspot.com
It's not builds that restrict access to end game, it's gear. Once you get the levels you can respec and make whatever you are playing 'the build'... but you're still going to be in garbage trying to cobble together a group to get last years tier gear just so you can get in a group to get the next tier and then nect tier, and then net tier until you have tier bazillion and can finally be allowed to raid.
Most people give up long before that unless they have a TON of help.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Everquest 2 and their AA system and skill mastery system for the win. This system sounds like garbage.
The Talent tree system was good for 60 levels. Once they began adding levels they realized their mistake. How many buttons can you actually have on your action bar after all.
This is Blizz's attempt to fix a mistake that they created back in Vanilla. After all the Talent system was so bad that with each expansion they have to overhaul it.
If this doesn't fix the problem then, look for Blizz to just get rid of the whole talen tree system all together and try something new.
On a side note, In vanilla I used to take talents from different trees. If I liked a fury talent I would take it, if I liked an arms talent I would take it. This new system allows you to do that unlike the current system where you can't mix and match until you have first maxed out one tree. I am probably going to like the new system better than what we have now but that isn't saying much.
Actually the real problem is that the wow devs created the game mechanics, that made these other flavors unsuitible, and also created the sneering clique of cool kids, that those players who only want to create and play their character their way must conform to in order to be able to experience almost all of the end game content.
In other words if you like tutti frutti you are f**ked because unless you order almond crunch, the cool kids won't even let you through the door, or throw you back out into the street when they realise you aren't one of their souless zombie sycophants, even when they don't even own the f**king store. By making this change Blizzard isn't helping the casuals, they are once again catering to the to the elitest f**ks so they don't have to listen to Erkel bitch anymore becuase the cool kids never throw him the ball.
Once again Blizz opts to let a smaller percentage of the player base determine how everyone else plays the game.
If you are content for them to force you to wear a stright jacket in order to be allowed into the party, more power to you. Me, I'll go find something less boring and constricting.
The Blizzstapo: "Vee haff vays hof makingik you game."
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So i don't sound like i am picking on Wow i will say that i don't agree with ANY game making changes like this.IMO it is pretty much saying you made a mistake before and then where does it end?This is not a change after say 2 months into release,this is several years later and doesn't make sense.Once you start making cahnges like this years into release it is a guarantee you can't trust your developer and will make yet more chages over and over again.
I do agree that it is ALWAYS a good idea to try and improve your game but not in the form of overhauls or restructuring.The reason is becuase when i jolin a game ,i want THAT game i don't wan t to feel like every update i might have a totally different game.Even though i would accept it more if done soon after release,that still shows the developer released a game design that was not tested properly,Blizzard is not alone,most developers care more about rushing a game and making profits than to make sure they have tested and built a game that works from day 1.
I do like tweaks but not tweaks to individual classes but more tweaks designed to improve the entire game as a whole affecting everyone at the same time.
One thing that has been incredibly obviosu to me is the constant back n forth Wow><Eq2 copying.Eq2 did just an exact similiar restructuring and when al lwas said and done it did not do a single thing to any of my players.The over haul in EQ2 did exactly what i don't like it affected mainly one certain type of class the pet classes.Honestly Blizzard and SOE need to quit reacting and copying each others every move it is getting pathetic,they need to think for themselves for ONCE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Really? I see even more of the same. You will have your raiding build and your PvP or Solo build. Then if they make it easier to change talents (like glyphs...on the fly) you will have your specific builds for specific encounters.
This isnt blizzards fault or ineptitude either. No matter what in a number based game with a talent type system to improve skills there will always be cookie cutter builds. The only way to get around it is for talents to be fluff only.
Um... what? No, it's not about "cool kids" at all. If one person does 10k dps in a dungeon that requires 3 people with 15k+ dps to survive or a raid that requires every dpser to have 15k dps, then the person doing 10k dps is hindering the raid/group. The other people in the group shouldn't have to make up that person's 5k dps because that person wanted a "unique" talent spec. If a tank dies in 3 hits because they didn't put points into the end-all be-all tank ability that prevents soandso damage, then the healer can't heal them quickly enough. If the healer runs out of mana every 30 seconds because they didn't get their talent to help mana conservation because they wanted to be unique, then everyone dies.
If you don't like thinking about the group first instead of yourself and how "unique you are" then you should be soloing. Just like in real life, no one should have to pick up your slack because you don't "feel" like being efficient. "I like this ability because it looks cool and fits my character better." Then you go use that aoe on one target and don't use any other ability, thus giving you a 2k dps score when that boss needed at least 10k per player. That's selfish to expect other people to make up your 8k otherwise you'll call them elitist and tell them how bad they are. In a single player game, do you use the ability that does no damage to your enemy while you die? If we're only talking about 1 or two points not in the best spots then it's no problem and most people don't refuse a eprson from a group based off that. People refuse a person if their spec is so whacked out and they pull such low dps that they hinder a group. That doesn't make them elitist or bad because they don't feel like wasting their time.
It's all about math, nothing to do with being cool or not. Blizz can't do anything about that and the players shouldn't be called elitist if the raid keeps wiping because 3 people in the raid are pulling hardly any dps and they can't beat the enrage timer. The new change isn't "hindering" casuals in the slightest, it's making it so they can't make a mistake and so that if they're pulling low dps with the new system, then they just fail at the game. If a tank dies, it'd be more because he failed to pop his defensive spells or didn't grab enough aggro in time before the healer went down, instead of not placing a point in something crucial. (Or every one of them had crappy gear,)
This game employs a lot of math at the higher ends and 4+4=8 is always going to be a higher value than 2+2=4. You can say that "people can get away with unique specs and all it takes is patience and anyone that disagrees is an elitist ass", but you're wrong. No one wants to go to a raid, die for 4 hours because they don't have a tank with enoug health, a healer with enough mana, or enough dps, when people could just spec properly and make it 4 hours of pure gain. I don't walk into a wall over and over because I'm trying to be "unique", I walk around the wall because it's more efficient and because dragging other people into the wall with me is just screwed up. This change removes the wall. It helps the casuals in so many ways because it removes the ability to screw up your spec in the slightest. Now if they could stop them from choosing intellect gear on a warrior we'd be golden.
The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.
If I understand correctly. You still choose your role, ex warriors can be Arms, Fury and Prot. Based on that decision, you will automatically obtain certain spells/skills at certain levels. Basically, you get the "cookie cutter" build as you level now. So, at level 20 a prot warrior might get Improved Thunderclap or Incite, while an Arms warrior gets Sweeping Strikes (former talents). Which then opens up talents to be more flavor choices.
Like, the final tier for warriors allows them to take Bladestorm, Shockwave or Avatar. All 3 roles can make use of any one of those talents (prot bladestorm, or a fury shockwave).
In essence, you could make a more offensive minded tank, or a defensive minded DPS.
So every 15 levels you can select a talent, but inbetween you still obtain new skills.
So yes, dual spec should still exist, so you can select two of the three roles your class can play (or two of the three flavors of DPS for the pure classes).
Also, bear in mind that the talents shown at Blizzcon were most placed as examples, and I remember reading that they most likely will change before the 5.0 patch.
Basically, don't freak out quite yet, because we haven't seen the final product. This is also coming from someone who has had a sub for over 6 years now, so I obviously still like the game, and I am part of a vocal minorty of folks who don't mind the whole Pandaria thing :P
Reading these comments I'm so glad I don't play WoW. Got bored after 4 of my 7 days trial, never looked back
I totally agree with this opinion.
As summer comes to a close and I spend more and more time within the warm confines of my home, I have been tossing around the thought of resubbing to WoW. When I heard about Blizz's offer of free D3 with a year's WoW sub, I thought it sounded like a pretty good deal. I'm okay with most of the new features for the upcoming xpack; the monk class is long overdue IMO and one I've wanted to see since the first time I logged into WoW back in 2004. Personally, the Pandarian race and Pokémon battles don't really interest me, but I could still play the game without either of those being forced upon me.
The new talent system, however, is a total dealbreaker. As if the Cata system wasn't already dumbed-down enough, they have to go make it even more idiot-proof... and I guarantee, this will not balance the different specs. Theorycrafters will still be finding specs that top the DPS, tanking, and healing charts in raids. Each class will still have a particular spec grossly overrepresented in arena, and a slightly different spec in battlegrounds. The only difference is now a player is even more locked into a single tree, and doesn't get a few optional points that make only a nominal difference in effectiveness to put into whatever utility suits his playstyle.
Blizz won't be getting any sub money from me.
Maybe. It might be that the future of MMOs is about few or no classes and plenty of customization instead of the many but pretty rigid classes of Everquest.
I hope personally that someone mixes all this with Guildwars idea of selecting your own skills from a list, it have a lot of potential and you suddenly could have many more options. While GWs PvP have better and worse combos there are still a lot more useful combos and room for individuality there than in Wows original talent system even though you just have 8 skills at the same time.
Mixing those things make sense, MMOs needs give the players more options about how they want to play their characters and you can see that all the newly released and upcomming games try to do that one way or another.