Originally posted by Murashu I see no problems with how this works as long as new or old players can continue making a profit off high sec PI with zero risk and make larger profits off PI in low sec (more costs+ more logistics + more risks) and even higher profits off of null/unknown space (highest cost to maintain + largest logistics requirement + highest risk).
Omg no!
Everyone doing PI needs to have same conditions, that is crucial for functional competitive market.
If PI isn't interesting for your low/null sec industry ventures, don't do it and find something more lucrative. Creating artificial mechanics to supplement supposed higher costs is dumb.
Originally posted by Faelan CCP has been told numerous times that this is not a fun game mechanic. The have themselves admitted it's not a fun mechanic. Yet despite that, they decide to put developer effort into it and introduce another one of those mechanics
I completely agree and it is mind boggling how short memory CCP has.
I am not sure about taxes mechanics but they are supposed to be based on market prices so in theory if they are flexible enough, low/null sec should not be able to completely ruin high sec PI and actual impact on high sec PI will depend on supply volumes from low/null.
While I disagree with the whole idea, it might not be as bad...
Everyone doing PI needs to have same conditions, that is crucial for functional competitive market.
If PI isn't interesting for your low/null sec industry ventures, don't do it and find something more lucrative. Creating artificial mechanics to supplement supposed higher costs is dumb.
Preferential treatment only hurts the economy.
Nothing else in the entire game has the same conditions across all systems. Why should PI be any different?
CCP has been told numerous times that this is not a fun game mechanic. The have themselves admitted it's not a fun mechanic. Yet despite that, they decide to put developer effort into it and introduce another one of those mechanics
I completely agree and it is mind boggling how short memory CCP has.
I am not sure about taxes mechanics but they are supposed to be based on market prices so in theory if they are flexible enough, low/null sec should not be able to completely ruin high sec PI and actual impact on high sec PI will depend on supply volumes from low/null.
While I disagree with the whole idea, it might not be as bad...
I would have had absolutely no problem if they had just increased the taxes to start with, but kept the whole PoCo thing out of the equation for the time being, giving people time to adjust. The game has very few ISK sinks and PI actually took away some of that since those goods used to sold by NPCs, which was way more than the PI taxes that replaced them. That would have allowed the market to settle to the new price level and given CCP some time to work with the playerbase on the whole PoCo idea. I still can't help wondering - why the rush?
We shall see in time how this turns out, but in order for hi-sec PI to make any sense, it's not just about being profitable in general. It's also a question of whether it's worth the time and effort, PI being on the tedious side, when compared to other hi-sec activites.
There's also still the big unknown factor regarding Dust and how that fits into the whole puzzle, if at all. Dust could be all about a new resource called Unobtanium for all we know. But if it does involve the current PI resources, that's going to affect things as well.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Nothing else in the entire game has the same conditions across all systems. Why should PI be any different?
Elaborate please because only similar thing that comes to my mind are Starbase Charters.
Note: It isn't a valid argument: If 2 things are wrong, the 3rd should be as well.
All money making activities in EVE offer higher rewards in the lower security systems by design. Ratting, Salvaging Sleepers, Ore Mining, Gas Mining, L5, FW, and Pirate Faction Missioning, Moon Mining, Research, Exploration, Capital Construction….they all pay out significantly higher rewards with significantly higher logistical requirements.
I don’t know what to tell you if you believe everything else in EVE is wrong and PI was the one thing that was done right previously.
Originally posted by Murashu All money making activities in EVE offer higher rewards in the lower security systems by design. Ratting, Salvaging Sleepers, Ore Mining, Gas Mining, L5, FW, and Pirate Faction Missioning, Moon Mining, Research, Exploration, Capital Construction .they all pay out significantly higher rewards with significantly higher logistical requirements. I dont know what to tell you if you believe everything else in EVE is wrong and PI was the one thing that was done right previously.
What you talk about is resource distribution - some places yield higher output than others or are location exclusive. That is fine and there is no problem with that.
It isn't the same as PI taxes though.
PI taxes means that when two people do exact same thing, one gets paid more than the other. This is wrong because it hinders competitive market and competitive market is vital here.
Originally posted by Faelan I would have had absolutely no problem if they had just increased the taxes to start with, but kept the whole PoCo thing out of the equation for the time being, giving people time to adjust. The game has very few ISK sinks and PI actually took away some of that since those goods used to sold by NPCs, which was way more than the PI taxes that replaced them. That would have allowed the market to settle to the new price level and given CCP some time to work with the playerbase on the whole PoCo idea. I still can't help wondering - why the rush? We shall see in time how this turns out, but in order for hi-sec PI to make any sense, it's not just about being profitable in general. It's also a question of whether it's worth the time and effort, PI being on the tedious side, when compared to other hi-sec activites. There's also still the big unknown factor regarding Dust and how that fits into the whole puzzle, if at all. Dust could be all about a new resource called Unobtanium for all we know. But if it does involve the current PI resources, that's going to affect things as well.
UPDATE: Bad news...
Originally posted by CCP Omen We can't commit (right here, right now) to a particular update schedule for the tariffs. I can see the value in that and I will talk to the team but Can't promise anything right now.
I think POCO were 'rushed' because they need time to 'tweak' the system and see how market response. POCO are part of PI economy. It will be then much easier and you will need smaller changes with POCO in place when DUST hits.
It would be unpleasant to release DUST when there will be no interest in fighting over POCO in EVE.
Only my guess though as I am not following DUST at all not how the interaction with EVE is supposed to work.
I probably used wrong word - profit. I did not want to use 'worth' as that is subjective and thought that profit is better as it is something measurable.
I dare to say that it is clear that some new resource and products will need to be introduced as I do not see under current conditions PI being worth to defend or fight over...I would say it will be a problem even now
I think POCO were 'rushed' because they need time to 'tweak' the system and see how market response. POCO are part of PI economy. It will be then much easier and you will need smaller changes with POCO in place when DUST hits.
It would be unpleasant to release DUST when there will be no interest in fighting over POCO in EVE.
Only my guess though as I am not following DUST at all not how the interaction with EVE is supposed to work.
I probably used wrong word - profit. I did not want to use 'worth' as that is subjective and thought that profit is better as it is something measurable.
I dare to say that it is clear that some new resource and products will need to be introduced as I do not see under current conditions PI being worth to defend or fight over...I would say it will be a problem even now
Exactly my thoughts as well. Why the rush if this isn't something that involves Dust and thus need to be in place before the arrival of Dust? But if so, why not just say so right away? Are they afraid that's going to cause the forums to combust yet again or have they fallen back into their old ways of not communicating enough?
Either way, I hope it works out for the better in the end and that Dust turns out to be a huge success for them. I don't think they can afford another failure and if Dust fizzles, then what? Could we potentially end up with a bottleneck situation where something requires a gameplay element that almost nobody wants to touch? What then? Removal of said feature or a hastily put together PC port of Dust that comes free of charge with your EVE online subscription? For something that should be big and groundbreaking... really... Dust could be Battlefield 3 with an actual purpose and a real reason to win... I see pretty much no mentioning of Dust in the gaming news. Quite disturbing for something that supposedly is just around the corner.
But let's hope for the best.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I loved this expansion and can't wait to see how it changes the stalemate in nullsec.
Can you elaborate what about this expansion is supposedly 'change the stalemate in nullsec'?
Supercapital ships were nerfed a decent amount. Some of the larger power blocs were massing these ships and using them to take over region after region because subcapital ships (what you and I will be flying) simply couldn't break the tank of these large super cap fleets.
Not only that, but now you can't simply log off to save your super capital, so there's a much MUCH higher risk to fielding these ships in an engagement. This change alone would have net me a few dozen super kills (including Titans) had it been in place before. Some of these large blocs are going to have to use conventional ship fleets with super capital support, as opposed to just using the super capital fleet to be virtually untouchable.
Originally posted by helthros Supercapital ships were nerfed a decent amount. Some of the larger power blocs were massing these ships and using them to take over region after region because subcapital ships (what you and I will be flying) simply couldn't break the tank of these large super cap fleets.
Not only that, but now you can't simply log off to save your super capital, so there's a much MUCH higher risk to fielding these ships in an engagement. This change alone would have net me a few dozen super kills (including Titans) had it been in place before. Some of these large blocs are going to have to use conventional ship fleets with super capital support, as opposed to just using the super capital fleet to be virtually untouchable.
I see where you are coming from but I do not see things as positively as you are.
When I look at the map, I see no major change over the years when it comes to large power blocs. What you consider a cause in current map layout, I see a catalyst for trend that was already present years ago.
Large, dominating power blocks is imo, inevitable. It just took time for the game to get into the stage when there are enough players and accumulated wealth to make it possible.
They will be untouchable with or without overpowered super capitals.
Supercapital ships were nerfed a decent amount. Some of the larger power blocs were massing these ships and using them to take over region after region because subcapital ships (what you and I will be flying) simply couldn't break the tank of these large super cap fleets.
Not only that, but now you can't simply log off to save your super capital, so there's a much MUCH higher risk to fielding these ships in an engagement. This change alone would have net me a few dozen super kills (including Titans) had it been in place before. Some of these large blocs are going to have to use conventional ship fleets with super capital support, as opposed to just using the super capital fleet to be virtually untouchable.
I see where you are coming from but I do not see things as positively as you are.
When I look at the map, I see no major change over the years when it comes to large power blocs. What you consider a cause in current map layout, I see a catalyst for trend that was already present years ago.
Large, dominating power blocks is imo, inevitable. It just took time for the game to get into the stage when there are enough players and accumulated wealth to make it possible.
They will be untouchable with or without overpowered super capitals.
There is less of a chance to have super capital blobs that eliminate the possiblity of even fighting - What's not to like about that?
I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but it sounds a little emo so maybe that's why I don't get it.
"Winter is coming" is something our allies intend to act on.
Originally posted by helthros There is less of a chance to have super capital blobs that eliminate the possiblity of even fighting - What's not to like about that?
It was you saying it will change the stalemate of 0.0 and I am merely pointing out that the result won't change - you lose, no change in stalemate. You will just get steamrolled just in a different way. Did you even get the message?
There is less of a chance to have super capital blobs that eliminate the possiblity of even fighting - What's not to like about that?
It was you saying it will change the stalemate of 0.0 and I am merely pointing out that the result won't change - you lose, no change in stalemate. You will just get steamrolled just in a different way. Did you even get the message?
I lose? Explain to me how someone 'loses' in EVE. I was kind of hoping you weren't being some emo kid with a misplaced sense of elitism, but I guess I was wrong.
Maybe your crappy alliance got annihilated from nullsec, but my alliance and my allies are alive and kicking. We're planning on a major offensive invasion now that we can actually stand to super capitals with subcaps. There are thousands of people getting ready to go to war right now. Some will get steamrolled and some will do the steamrolling - I would like to think that I'll be part of the latter.
-Insert typical doom & gloom instilled bitter vet response here-
The new BCs will be reduced to thier replacement cost.
EVE is the never ending cage match where we club each other over the head over and over. That isn't changing with Crucible. It's an expansion for people already playing EVE and enjoying it as is. Its actually good for EVE.
I can agree, as a former EVE player looking for a good reason to come back this expansion isn't it.
I can see where you’re coming from. I don’t think this expansion has the same impact as some of the older expansions, but as an X player looking in I like it.
I like what has been done to the graphics. Ship trails, nebula, and being able to switch between the classic hanger and the captains quarters. I think all of these will add immersion and make the game look as good as any game on the market.
The blaster improvements and new battle cruisers were also needed. Both of these changes will be great for small gangs. Now, you can get in close and deliver high DPS, or deliver high DPS for a short period of time. When you add in the destroyer buff, I think this adds a lot of options and tactics for all players looking for something more than fleet combat.
The countless UI improvements, oh man where these needed. Being able to warp to a gate and jump on contact, and having a loot can pop up automatically when in range, these are great. Scaling the UI, so you can make it larger or smaller depending on where you are, is also a great addition. Bringing back the double click features to ships and cans in the hangar bay, and having the internal fitting tool now show how much CPU or power grid you have left, again just make the game faster and easier to navigate. They just make the game more user friendly.
These are the types of things a lot of people were looking for, and not having them already in the game is the reason many were upset.
The new BCs will be reduced to thier replacement cost.
EVE is the never ending cage match where we club each other over the head over and over. That isn't changing with Crucible. It's an expansion for people already playing EVE and enjoying it as is. Its actually good for EVE.
I can agree, as a former EVE player looking for a good reason to come back this expansion isn't it.
I can see where you’re coming from. I don’t think this expansion has the same impact as some of the older expansions, but as an X player looking in I like it.
I like what has been done to the graphics. Ship trails, nebula, and being able to switch between the classic hanger and the captains quarters. I think all of these will add immersion and make the game look as good as any game on the market.
The blaster improvements and new battle cruisers were also needed. Both of these changes will be great for small gangs. Now, you can get in close and deliver high DPS, or deliver high DPS for a short period of time. When you add in the destroyer buff, I think this adds a lot of options and tactics for all players looking for something more than fleet combat.
The countless UI improvements, oh man where these needed. Being able to warp to a gate and jump on contact, and having a loot can pop up automatically when in range, these are great. Scaling the UI, so you can make it larger or smaller depending on where you are, is also a great addition. Bringing back the double click features to ships and cans in the hangar bay, and having the internal fitting tool now show how much CPU or power grid you have left, again just make the game faster and easier to navigate. They just make the game more user friendly.
These are the types of things a lot of people were looking for, and not having them already in the game is the reason many were upset.
Another minor improvment that I thought was needed, is telling you the actual distance your missiles will fly. Sure, you can easily do a simple equation to figure it out, but now I don't need to, and it saves me a minute or so every time I wanted to check my max flight distance on them.
Also, saving orbit/keep at range based on ships is awesome, as I used to fly a lot of different ships. One day I'd roam in an inty or assault ship, the next I was in a battleship, the next I was in a sniper, then a rocket boat, etc. Not having to cosntantly change optimals is a great improvement.
Comments
Omg no!
Everyone doing PI needs to have same conditions, that is crucial for functional competitive market.
If PI isn't interesting for your low/null sec industry ventures, don't do it and find something more lucrative. Creating artificial mechanics to supplement supposed higher costs is dumb.
Preferential treatment only hurts the economy.
I completely agree and it is mind boggling how short memory CCP has.
I am not sure about taxes mechanics but they are supposed to be based on market prices so in theory if they are flexible enough, low/null sec should not be able to completely ruin high sec PI and actual impact on high sec PI will depend on supply volumes from low/null.
While I disagree with the whole idea, it might not be as bad...
Nothing else in the entire game has the same conditions across all systems. Why should PI be any different?
Elaborate please because only similar thing that comes to my mind are Starbase Charters.
Note: It isn't a valid argument: If 2 things are wrong, the 3rd should be as well.
I would have had absolutely no problem if they had just increased the taxes to start with, but kept the whole PoCo thing out of the equation for the time being, giving people time to adjust. The game has very few ISK sinks and PI actually took away some of that since those goods used to sold by NPCs, which was way more than the PI taxes that replaced them. That would have allowed the market to settle to the new price level and given CCP some time to work with the playerbase on the whole PoCo idea. I still can't help wondering - why the rush?
We shall see in time how this turns out, but in order for hi-sec PI to make any sense, it's not just about being profitable in general. It's also a question of whether it's worth the time and effort, PI being on the tedious side, when compared to other hi-sec activites.
There's also still the big unknown factor regarding Dust and how that fits into the whole puzzle, if at all. Dust could be all about a new resource called Unobtanium for all we know. But if it does involve the current PI resources, that's going to affect things as well.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
All money making activities in EVE offer higher rewards in the lower security systems by design. Ratting, Salvaging Sleepers, Ore Mining, Gas Mining, L5, FW, and Pirate Faction Missioning, Moon Mining, Research, Exploration, Capital Construction….they all pay out significantly higher rewards with significantly higher logistical requirements.
I don’t know what to tell you if you believe everything else in EVE is wrong and PI was the one thing that was done right previously.
What you talk about is resource distribution - some places yield higher output than others or are location exclusive. That is fine and there is no problem with that.
It isn't the same as PI taxes though.
PI taxes means that when two people do exact same thing, one gets paid more than the other. This is wrong because it hinders competitive market and competitive market is vital here.
I hope it's clear now.
UPDATE: Bad news...
I think POCO were 'rushed' because they need time to 'tweak' the system and see how market response. POCO are part of PI economy. It will be then much easier and you will need smaller changes with POCO in place when DUST hits.
It would be unpleasant to release DUST when there will be no interest in fighting over POCO in EVE.
Only my guess though as I am not following DUST at all not how the interaction with EVE is supposed to work.
I probably used wrong word - profit. I did not want to use 'worth' as that is subjective and thought that profit is better as it is something measurable.
I dare to say that it is clear that some new resource and products will need to be introduced as I do not see under current conditions PI being worth to defend or fight over...I would say it will be a problem even now
Exactly my thoughts as well. Why the rush if this isn't something that involves Dust and thus need to be in place before the arrival of Dust? But if so, why not just say so right away? Are they afraid that's going to cause the forums to combust yet again or have they fallen back into their old ways of not communicating enough?
Either way, I hope it works out for the better in the end and that Dust turns out to be a huge success for them. I don't think they can afford another failure and if Dust fizzles, then what? Could we potentially end up with a bottleneck situation where something requires a gameplay element that almost nobody wants to touch? What then? Removal of said feature or a hastily put together PC port of Dust that comes free of charge with your EVE online subscription? For something that should be big and groundbreaking... really... Dust could be Battlefield 3 with an actual purpose and a real reason to win... I see pretty much no mentioning of Dust in the gaming news. Quite disturbing for something that supposedly is just around the corner.
But let's hope for the best.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I loved this expansion and can't wait to see how it changes the stalemate in nullsec.
Everyone is sitting back waiting for someone else to make the first move. My alliance is on standby for asskickery.
Can you elaborate what about this expansion is supposedly 'change the stalemate in nullsec'?
Supercapital ships were nerfed a decent amount. Some of the larger power blocs were massing these ships and using them to take over region after region because subcapital ships (what you and I will be flying) simply couldn't break the tank of these large super cap fleets.
Not only that, but now you can't simply log off to save your super capital, so there's a much MUCH higher risk to fielding these ships in an engagement. This change alone would have net me a few dozen super kills (including Titans) had it been in place before. Some of these large blocs are going to have to use conventional ship fleets with super capital support, as opposed to just using the super capital fleet to be virtually untouchable.
I see where you are coming from but I do not see things as positively as you are.
When I look at the map, I see no major change over the years when it comes to large power blocs. What you consider a cause in current map layout, I see a catalyst for trend that was already present years ago.
Large, dominating power blocks is imo, inevitable. It just took time for the game to get into the stage when there are enough players and accumulated wealth to make it possible.
They will be untouchable with or without overpowered super capitals.
There is less of a chance to have super capital blobs that eliminate the possiblity of even fighting - What's not to like about that?
I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but it sounds a little emo so maybe that's why I don't get it.
"Winter is coming" is something our allies intend to act on.
It was you saying it will change the stalemate of 0.0 and I am merely pointing out that the result won't change - you lose, no change in stalemate. You will just get steamrolled just in a different way. Did you even get the message?
I lose? Explain to me how someone 'loses' in EVE. I was kind of hoping you weren't being some emo kid with a misplaced sense of elitism, but I guess I was wrong.
Maybe your crappy alliance got annihilated from nullsec, but my alliance and my allies are alive and kicking. We're planning on a major offensive invasion now that we can actually stand to super capitals with subcaps. There are thousands of people getting ready to go to war right now. Some will get steamrolled and some will do the steamrolling - I would like to think that I'll be part of the latter.
-Insert typical doom & gloom instilled bitter vet response here-
I can see where you’re coming from. I don’t think this expansion has the same impact as some of the older expansions, but as an X player looking in I like it.
I like what has been done to the graphics. Ship trails, nebula, and being able to switch between the classic hanger and the captains quarters. I think all of these will add immersion and make the game look as good as any game on the market.
The blaster improvements and new battle cruisers were also needed. Both of these changes will be great for small gangs. Now, you can get in close and deliver high DPS, or deliver high DPS for a short period of time. When you add in the destroyer buff, I think this adds a lot of options and tactics for all players looking for something more than fleet combat.
The countless UI improvements, oh man where these needed. Being able to warp to a gate and jump on contact, and having a loot can pop up automatically when in range, these are great. Scaling the UI, so you can make it larger or smaller depending on where you are, is also a great addition. Bringing back the double click features to ships and cans in the hangar bay, and having the internal fitting tool now show how much CPU or power grid you have left, again just make the game faster and easier to navigate. They just make the game more user friendly.
These are the types of things a lot of people were looking for, and not having them already in the game is the reason many were upset.
Another minor improvment that I thought was needed, is telling you the actual distance your missiles will fly. Sure, you can easily do a simple equation to figure it out, but now I don't need to, and it saves me a minute or so every time I wanted to check my max flight distance on them.
Also, saving orbit/keep at range based on ships is awesome, as I used to fly a lot of different ships. One day I'd roam in an inty or assault ship, the next I was in a battleship, the next I was in a sniper, then a rocket boat, etc. Not having to cosntantly change optimals is a great improvement.