Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Question: Why Sandbox MMOs don't work?
Talint
Member UncommonPosts: 168
Hello MMORPG Community,
So I'm sitting here watching TV and I started to think about Skyrim, and how much I love the game. I've never actually played a Sandbox MMO but I'm growing in love with the whole Sandbox style that Skyrim offers. Then I thought, why aren't there any good Sandbox MMOs? (some say Darkfall is good, but I've heard both sides) And I thought about it somemore, and then I realized this. Maybe the reason that Sandbox MMOs don't stick is because even with a Sandbox MMO you still cannot explore the entire world, you're still stuck to ceritan zones or areas. Take Skyrim for example. The Monstor's / Humonoids scale to your level. You can literally explore every inch of the world and still be able to kill something. If you go to the farthest north point, or the farthest south point, it's all the same. Could this possibly be why Sandbox MMOs do not stick? Or is there some other aspect that I'm clearly not thinking of.
Thanks all, I cannot wait to hear your responses.
Talint
Comments
I'm starting to think sandboxes are failing because players and developers on the sandbox bandwagon equate sandbox to hardcore.
If you had a good sandbox game with the the benefits and ease of use of a popular themepark game you would have a winner. But for some reason ease of use and sandbox never goes hand in hand with game devs.
Ultima Online worked, and is still up and running, as are others, I am not a fan of their current skill system, but their are other ways to play different periods of the game and rule sets...
Sandboxes are fine, they have problems, just like themeparks do, you just have to figure out the best way to do things, as with any MMO, the big problem is, like you cite, DF...It is AA at best, and some would call it a A MMO...There is no new AAA sandbox, so people poke at the cruddy indie titles that shouldn't of been released in their crappy state...Then they compare them to a game that spent 10 times the money or more, and think thats a good comparisson.
Themeparks are starting to add more sandbox stuff in the dev cycle now, so it will become more common to see some of the features that some enjoy in a sandbox. I am sure their will be some sandbox games, but the majority will be some type of hybrid.
No one dedicates a serious budget to their development.
And for some reason people seem to think that a Sandbox games just HAS to have FFA full loot PVP.
As much fun as that is for some of us, it's a sure-fire way to make sure that a game will never have enough subs to survive.
That..and developers keep forgetting to put enough sand in the box.
Most sandbox MMO are so low budget, even Darkfall was low budget compared to the big themepark MMO.
The chance of an MMO 'failing' if you're able to use a fraction the money of other developers probably doesn't help.
I think themepark is easier to build since you don't need to account for anyone going down road B, C or D. The only option is road A and building around road A is easier.
I don't know much about ArcheAge (I know it looks amazing), that would be a sandbox with a really high budget (assuming the ArcheAge = Sandbox info is correct.
(I prefer sandbox btw, reading over my post it seems I preferred themepark, no
)
I think a big problem is simply the use of the term sandbox. It means something different to everyone, and to a lot of people it means hardcore.
Sandbox proponents need to show off their vocabular and actually promote the specifics of what they want and stop throwing around the Sandbox term.
Not happy with the current state of MMORPG's? Think you can do better? What would you do different?
Well I'm not sure if that's the biggest problem because eventually you would level high enough to reach all areas. I think the biggest problem is there just hasn't been a well developed sandbox style mmo for a while. Currently popular opinion would state that Eve is the only one around and if you're like me and tend to want an actual toon over a space ship that just doesn't cut it.
I loved SWG back in the day and it had tons of sandbox elements and has been regarded as one of the better sandbox MMOs before it was ruined. Yet what other sandbox MMO can you name? Darkfall? That was independently developed and just doesn't have the quality many are looking for among other complaints.
I honestly think as soon as a decently developed sandbox game hits the shelves that has been made by a developer who can bring out that shine and customizability we're all looking for it will be a huge success. When that game will arrive and what that game will be called I can't really say at this point but that void will eventually be filled and many will be happy when it finally does.
The quality level is so low in comparison to the theme park games it's a noticeable difference in polish and care in nearly all areas.
Even DF (which I'm playing as we speak) is a shell of a sandbox. They really only fleshed out the pvp and seem to only center around the pvp gameplay. They added leader boards for pvp, and in my opinion if they were true to the sandbox genre they would have added crafting and pve type leader boards as well. I understand the boards are generally meaningless, but it is a feature added strictly for one style of play.
Wow, people are dense.
Right now there are basically only 2 MMO success stories (not counting F2P business-oriented scams or asian markets). One is WoW, whose subscriber base is going down. The other is EvE, whose subscriber base has been going up or holding steady for a very long time.
The actual question is why do themepark MMOs fail so often.
No idea. Sandbox MMOs would be easier to develop long term and would have a higher survivability in the market.
Quest based Themepark MMOs inherently leave a trail of static content that 95% of the community use once and never look at again. The dev team is in a permanent race with the playerbase to keep them entertained.
My biggest experience with sandbox was PreCU SWG and none of the content ever became useless. You could be a full point char and there was still benefit in buffing and going out back of Kaadra and killing Mummer thugs. Because of the the rolling mat spawns a good Tat wooly saw a spike in Bantha farming. It was a good game world. Most of the bugs and problems were related to the theme parks that got added. The sandbox aspect was well done.
- Afterthought: Prelaunch development (the time spent with no income) is much, much, much higher. Spilling out a poorly developed sandbox equals empty world with no content. FF14 is a good example. Half done. nothing to do but grind your ass off, cap out and wait for a new game. So a successfull sandbox means alot more polish and no levels because levels convert all content to momentary usefullness.
I haven't looked at Darkfall's "leaderboards" in a really long time, but the last time I looked there were PvE rankings and some crafting rankings I didn't really understand.
I guess this thread is all about the misinformation.
It used to be, now its Drama queen PvP.
Sandbox fans should think about embracing an approach to online gaming similar to that seen by Minecraft. As Skyrim proves, you don't even have to have other players running around in the game world for the world to be immersive and engaging. What if you took Skyrim as is and simply allowed for the capability of <50 players to play on a single game session at a time?
12mil going to 10mil isnt a failure.
10k going to 400k isnt a great success by comparison.
It has taken EVE what, 10 years to reach the amount of subs WoW had in 6 weeks? Are you seriously comparing the two?
EVE is a great game for what it is, but it is not a huge success. EQ had more subscribers 12 years ago. Rift has more subscribers im guessing and its not even on the radar anymore. I bet DC online had more, CoH had more, EQ2 has more, Lineage 1 and 2 have more, etc.
I don't play wow, but until someone else even gets to 10% of its player base its laughable to compare them.
If that's the case then I stand corrected. Though you seem to be implying some sort of conspiracy in the words you use.
Actually in most Sandbox MMO's the level to power ratio/scaling is typically much more narrow (meaning even a new player would have a chance, however small, at defeating the most powerful player/creature.
The main reasons Sandbox MMO's haven't really succeeded is:
Technical Requirements - Sandboxes have incredibly higher technical complexity than other styles of games (that was even true with Ultima Online without actually using 3D environments). Thats usually what kills most of them as most are attempted by Indie developers that just don't have the financing or experience to do them.
Lack of Identity - The Themepark vs Sandbox debate argument from the Themepark side is that Sandboxes are boring because there is no theme/story or clear progression in the game. In many ways they are right, the issue is tied to the following reason and the previous. The previous reason also causes shortages in Ambient Events/Environment development - basically most Sandboxes end up barren nothingness for the most part other than what Player create in it which pushes the specific game towards a PvP-centric environment and attitude which typically causes a lot of problems since popular PvP attitude are very destructive/disruptive to Sandbox communities and environments for the simple reason of the Sandbox [actions have lasting consequences] which popular PvP attitudes are generally not accustomed to dealing with. Basically a Sandbox/Virtual World isn't an excuse for lack of events or story or progression, if anything a sandbox requires tons more since player direction is uncontrolled. That typically requires heavy reactive events rather than scripted or planned events and dynamic/floating/shifting progression which is much more technical [AI associated with the Map/zone/worlds instead of just the individual mobs/entities & non-linear/vector like complex math for progression- more problems added to reason #1]
Community - Essentially a Sandbox game is made and broken by its community. That seems like a plus (and to a degree it is) but also a major problem for them since Players have Real lifes to live and aren't locked into the game hence the players themselves have an enormous amount of freedom and power to benefit the game and more likely (intentional or not) harm it. Even tight solid communities get bad moods (like after an unpopular patch or change to the game) which can turn an attractive Sandbox MMOG into a horrible one. Population management and a ton of social tools are needed to manage the community, let them manage themselves to a reasonable degree and compensate for their absence when not online [further complicating reason #1]
You've probably heard of SWG and a lot of negative and positives from various people.
Truth is, besides Ultima Online (non-3D and one of the pioneers of MMOG's and sandbox MMO's in particular) only Star Wars Galaxies has been an attempt by non-Indie developer to make a high quality Sandbox MMOG [Eve Online has been a sleeper hit but its success isn't really financially impressive by industry standards - mostly it impressed with its survival and it was an Indie development when it started] and quite simply they failed due to technical failings.
People will say it was the NGE/CU but the truth is the engine & tech running the game just couldn't handle the original design [people prefer to remember the good things about it but anyone who was there knows most of what players were talking about was the bugs/glitches and technical problems and the lack of content]. The design was too aggressive and too complex to accomplish in financially sound way (development and maintenance costs and quite simply no standard to work off of - UO wasn't 3D and Virtual Worlds had too much limitations on performance or excessively high requirements back in those days), The NGE/CU was simply a way for them to salvage the game and that probably did more than just kill it (the publicity of it & discussion of it is Still something Game Sites/MMOG developers are wary of).
There might be one coming though.
Blizzard is reputing working on a Project Titan and most people 'BELIEVE' thats its going to be a sandbox game.
The Secret World isn't a Sandbox Game its more of Giant Lobby game or somesuch similar to Champions Online/Anarchy Online etc. which really aren't sandbox games they are more old school themepark [Everquest] games (larger Open World zones instead of Small Instances) with little ability to impact/change the zone/world.
Guild Wars 2 is essentially a Hybrid of the Old school zones and Instance model themeparks (with dynamic event system to provide an illusion of a dynamic world)
I'm sure others will mention other games
Darkfall Online is an Indie Game
Mortal Online is an Indie Game
Perpetuum is an Indie Game and not even sure its a Sandbox but probably close enough to be considered one
Eve Online as successful as it is was technically an Indie game when it launched though it technically not an Indie game anymore (250k+ concurrent users last I checked)
Jumpgate was an Indie and peaked at 300k if I recall (lucky if there are 50 players online right now last I checked - Netdevil was bought out by Gazillion or something and Netdevil basically dissappeared - so I consider it Dead) and not even sure I'd call it a Sandbox MMO [its a space sim like game though it meets a lot of the requirements - station building, player/community driven events etc.].
If someone knows the specific stat please state it - I believe even SWG only peaked at about 750k-1mil users but thats very old and from memory which is not reliable at all [I'll remember something clearly or just have a vague sense of what I'm remembering - this one is a vague sense].
[need confirmation] Meridian 59 I believe was the Original MMORPG and Ultima Online was the Original Sandbox MMORPG.
First Skyrim does not scale the content to your level. Second, Skyrim's skill based system as opposed to a class based system allows any character to be relative against most mobs (Except Mammoths and Giants, which are fure freaking evil lol).
Lastly I would point out 2 things: 1. No AAA developer has ever tried pouring millions into developing a Sandbox and 2. Every Sandbox is niche in that it features FFA PvP which is some made up feature that people think has to be included in a sandbox.
If a company was to develop a PLAYER vs ENVIRONMENT (PvE) and allocate just as much $$$$ as your run of the mill themepark WoW clone then you would have an amazing hit. Just imagine a Sandbox PvE world similar to Skyrim, with the combat and production quality of a WoW, the Dynamic content of a GW2, and the skill based character and Loot/Craft based systems of an Asherons Call. The possibilities are endless.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
That's all subjective.
There are far more successful (profitable) theme park mmo's than sandbox. Including the f2p market it's not even close. I'm interested where your skew'd view comes from?
1. Low budget unrealistic expectations of the indie companies who made them. One would think that one of the indie devs would make a damn good low cost sandbox mmo, 2d like ultima online, but they do not.
2. Sandbox does not equal pvp, DnD in its purest form has NEVER been about pvp, the fact that Sandbox devs and players think that ffa pvp equals sandbox is one of the reasons why the genre is being underrepresented. Good itentions and idealism does not make money and ffa pvp worldwide is not fun unless you are willing to also add penalties for it when its unwarranted, want your sandbox to be like real life then add real life penalties for ffa pvp as well- but the ffa pvpers can't deal with such things and ironically turn into carebears. I've said it before I will say it now. Ryzom is a damn good Sandbox game that nobody plays.
At the end of the day game making is about making money, and indie sandbox devs do not realize this-my following point illustrates how you make money.
3. World design. Crappy story, crappy world, crappy setting. Good game design beats everything-do you think nobody would play a good Shadowrun/RIFTS/ARS Magica/WOD/etc etc etc sandbox game even if it was only 2d? Bollocks!. These indie devs need to start getting some real creative directors to make a damn good setting for their games. If all you care about making is some pvp death simulator then make an fps with rpg elements and call it a day. (And why aren't there any sandbox games made with any one of the free fps dev kits out there?). Make an enthralling world-hell why has not anybody used the NWN toolset to make a good ffa pvp world large scale? (I know there are ffa pvp persistent worlds already using the NWN toolsets, you guys may want to check these out)
I will glady design a world and write the stories for FREE if anybody wants to put together a sandbox game that doesn't just cater to pvpers (and I like pvp, so don't think that I do not, I just want a cool world to see)! Just because I want to see it done.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Actually LOTR, WAR, AOC, EQ, EQ2, DAOC are all successes. These are video games BTW, and video games are not meant to last.
Because they don't release with polish.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Smedley over at sony claims that EQ Next is going to be a sandbox
Ryzom is a damn good sandbox that nobody plays, Vanguard is a very good sandpark that again, not enough people are playing. Want a sandbox? Show support for the games that have the features that you want that are already out there. Daddy is not going to give you dessert until you finish the veggies on your plate, aka look at Vanguard getting new content recently its because people put their money where their mouths are.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
"Question: Why Sandbox MMOs don't work?"
That's not a question.
##Best SWTOR of 2011
Posted by I_Return - SWTOR - "Forget the UI the characters and all ofhe nitpicking bullshit" "Greatest MMO Ever Created"
##Fail Thread Title of 2011
Originally posted by daveospice
"this game looks like crap?"
I will use SWG like you because I played it but it applies to any sandbox MMO and it starts with patching, nerfing and additions to original content. Because of the way code borrows from itself, when you nerf or patch content or features it has all kinds of headaches. Rubberbanding never happened in SWG untill the new, faster speeders came in. The original mounts were set to go a speed based on the rendering. Alot of the bugs didnt creep in untill they started adjusting Jedi and other classes, adding stuff like the village.
Sanbox need to be complete at launch to be fun but dont patch well afterwards. Entropia Universe is another sandbox and they simply add new worlds complete and of themselves but Entropia scared people off with thier business model.
So its ok for themepark fans to demand retreads like SWTOR, Rift, Aion, WAR, AoC, FFXIV and all the other F2P themeparks trash but us sandbox fans are forced to play shit gmaes? Frack that, I want a sandbox that is devoted to PvE designed by a AAA studio with Millions of dollars investment, if WoW clones can demand it by god damn so can I PERIOD.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Biggest reason for me is ffa pvp. I totally believe if they got rid of the sandbox marriage with ffa pvp more people would play them.
My understanding is before the nge galaxies had a pretty huge population. So id say dont mess with what works. that said games have to run smoothly no matter what style of game u play. Themepark or sandbox if it releases a borken mess its never gonna be a sucess.
Not to say sandbox games dont owrk they are just a niche group right now that peaks at arond 500k in a game like eve. Which from what ive read is the b est sandbox game out there.
im not saying sandbox cant work but ud think with less content driven by devs the budget wouldnt cost as much and u could actually make sure the game isnt a broken mess when it releases allowing those players that like sandbox games the freedom they crave.