So I ask....Why do people put up with themeparks that are more limited than games that were introduced over a decade ago. Things are supposed to progress with technology for the players, but they only have for the devs...Its almost like they use a Themepark Rail toolkit and spit out some generic thing that maximizes profit for effort, screw quality and vision.
I actually LOL'd at that (not because of you) because the truth is developers DO have a toolkit for Themepark Rails and thats mainly the reason why you see so many of them. I don't know of any Sandbox toolkits (or at least remotely up-to-current technology which would affect competitiveness of the product) which means devs have to make Sandboxes more or less from scratch.
I guess you kind of answered your own question partly.
As far as people putting up with it: well simply, we don't control the world/market/circumstance [yes, we could do something to change it but that would require tons of work and most just aren't that passionate and/or readily capable of pulling it off] so we just make do with whats available. I suppose you could scorn people about it but it won't actually change anything. Also business dictates what resources are available to developers and they rarely care about anything beyond making money.
{I believe Todd Howard in one of Skyrim's interviews stated:" Anyone can have a great idea, It takes a lot of work to make it happen" - not an exact quote} Not the first to say it but it definately is true.
{EDIT: Now that I think of it most games, including Themepark, have a Sandbox version that isn't released: The developer version they work with when they are making since the developer tools are what provide the functionality to create persistent changes/effects on the game environment. Which in an MMO would need to updated for each and every player encountering said changes/effects.}
Originally posted by SysOpPsyche Originally posted by Xthos
. . . .
So I ask....Why do people put up with themeparks that are more limited than games that were introduced over a decade ago. Things are supposed to progress with technology for the players, but they only have for the devs...Its almost like they use a Themepark Rail toolkit and spit out some generic thing that maximizes profit for effort, screw quality and vision.
I actually LOL'd at that (not because of you) because the truth is developers DO have a toolkit for Themepark Rails and thats mainly the reason why you see so many of them. I don't know of any Sandbox toolkits (or at least remotely up-to-current technology which would affect competitiveness of the product) which means devs have to make Sandboxes more or less from scratch.
<snip>
Please show us this Theme Park On Rails Toolkit that has been used to create so many games. There are hundreds, nay, thousands of people who would like to see it*.
* Just in case anyone is wondering, it doesn't exist. You're going to have to write everything from network code to the chat server yourself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So I ask....Why do people put up with themeparks that are more limited than games that were introduced over a decade ago. Things are supposed to progress with technology for the players, but they only have for the devs...Its almost like they use a Themepark Rail toolkit and spit out some generic thing that maximizes profit for effort, screw quality and vision.
I actually LOL'd at that (not because of you) because the truth is developers DO have a toolkit for Themepark Rails and thats mainly the reason why you see so many of them. I don't know of any Sandbox toolkits (or at least remotely up-to-current technology which would affect competitiveness of the product) which means devs have to make Sandboxes more or less from scratch.
Please show us this Theme Park On Rails Toolkit that has been used to create so many games. There are hundreds, nay, thousands of people who would like to see it*.
* Just in case anyone is wondering, it doesn't exist. You're going to have to write everything from network code to the chat server yourself.
Check out Multiverse Client, or Hero Engine (Champions Online and recently SWTOR) off the top of my head. Pretty much every feature they make is made from a Toolkit which made by an actual coder (making games =/= programming anymore but it definately helps).
Check out Multiverse Client, or Hero Engine (Champions Online and recently SWTOR) off the top of my head. Pretty much every feature they make is made from a Toolkit which made by an actual coder (making games =/= programming anymore but it definately helps).
Bye bye Troll and say hello to ignore.
Multiverse is a browser front end that seems to be concentrating mostly on Flash shooters, not a "themepark on rails toolkit". HE is a fairly straightforward flexible game engine that could be used for either sandboxes or themeparks.
You have a pretty odd definition of troll, by the way.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Oh wait, it's still going. Is it making billions? No, but it's still around. Staying power counts for something. I don't think Sandbox games fail to work, they just don't attract bored housewives and l33tdooderz.
And that's fine by me.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Heh...Yeah, well..I hope the current direction keeps up, to where hybrids that have more sandbox than the rails of the last 5 or so years do well.
I think a hybrid that is done properly would give both sides what they are looking for, you could easily have different rule sets for servers that would easily help accomplish this...From FFA kill everyone, PvP with ruleset to discourage rampant ganking, to PvE with controlled PvP.
I prefer sandbox type features, due to depth (housing and such), player economy, quality crafting/harvesting, freedom of skill based characters, open world/dungeons...Vanguard would be considered a themepark by many, but I think it was more hybrid, due to its quality of crafting/harvesting, vast world, housing and such....If only it could of released in a better state and performed better on cpus.
I am just hoping to get off the rails, once I reach level cap in current mmos, I lose interest fast, due to no quality game options imo....A lot of people will disagree, but its my opinion.
Sandbox MMOs DO work. UO and Eve have been running for ages. If SWG hadn't done the NGE it could have lasted for much longer. The perception that they don't work is caused by the few sandbox titles coming out since those games all being done by small indie studios. Where the big money has gone towards theme park designs, often themed after an IP.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by SysOpPsycheCheck out Multiverse Client, or Hero Engine (Champions Online and recently SWTOR) off the top of my head. Pretty much every feature they make is made from a Toolkit which made by an actual coder (making games =/= programming anymore but it definately helps). Bye bye Troll and say hello to ignore.
Multiuniverse is a browser front end that seems to be concentrating mostly on Flash shooters, not a "themepark on rails toolkit". HE is a fairly straightforward flexible game engine that could be used for either sandboxes or themeparks. You have a pretty odd definition of troll, by the way.
They have a pretty odd definition of 'Theme Park Toolkit' as well. Those engines, as they are presented are for small scale development or for demonstrations only. If you want a large scale game, you'll be recreating a lot of what those 'kits' give you for your small scale work. Bioware did not take the Hero Engine and use it as is to create SWToR. I can't think of anyone who's used the Multiverse engine for anything.
There is no 'Theme Park Toolkit'. There's not even a toolkit for MMORPG. The network code, the server code and even the chat code/chat server code is all going to be written or rewritten by the developer in the course of creating their game.
The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm not even remotely suggesting that you could build WOW, EVE, LOTRO, SWTOR, etc out of any of these, but they exist and, in most cases, are very affordable.
"The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games." - Lizardbones
Very true. The choice of game that one designs with any of the engines or toolkits is entirely up to them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The main reason i think why most sandbox mmorpgs do not work is because most of the time they are developed my a indie company that does not have the funds to complete the game before launch so they have to launch earlier to get money in Promise big things are coming and while they are working on all the bugs and glitchs and adding content they player base gets tired of waiting for newer content then they just decided not to even play no more.
Playing: Single player games |
Awaiting: Wild Star |Blade & Soul | The Repopulation | The Elder Scrolls online | ArcheAge | Firefall | Survarium | Bless | Black Desert |
Played: Guild Wars | Diablo 3 |The War Z | Runescape |World of Warcraft |Combat Arms |Perfect World | Rift | Fiesta | DC universe online | Aion | Age of Conan |Allods | Vindictus | The Secret World | Forge | Battle of the Immortals | Global Agenda| Cabal Online | Tera |
The main reason i think why most sandbox mmorpgs do not work is because most of the time they are developed my a indie company that does not have the funds to complete the game before launch so they have to launch earlier to get money in Promise big things are coming and while they are working on all the bugs and glitchs and adding content they player base gets tired of waiting for newer content then they just decided not to even play no more.
Why they are only developed by indie companies, is a more interesting question. Not the fact that they are.
Indie companies know two things.
1. They can't compete with WoW or it's lesser cousins with their funds
2. To be successful with a small development team and smaller funds, you have to hit an untapped market with little to no competition. EvE does not count as competition since It's a space MMO. Being a space MMO it's a corner market on its own.
That's where the idea of making a sandbox comes in. You spend less time creating interesting quests and content by letting the players make form content themselves. Best way to do that is focus mainly on FFA PvP and less on the PvE side which takes considerably more time and money to develop. All this while going for a corner market with no major competition.
In order to attract the big money and the bigger developers, a game has to have mass appeal in order to sell well. A game that lets you kill and loot all the equipment of other players is a penalty that does not have mass appeal.
What sandbox games have mass appeal? Look at games like Minecraft, Terraria and the likes. What about them makes them sell millions of copies. Although they are not MMOs their concepts can easily be incorporated into one (I said concepts, not straight ports). If developers would have that as their main focus without giving others the ability to burn it down and you have a recipy of a good mainstream sandbox a lot of people would play
I hope one day a big name developer realizes that, digging deep underground and coming across an ancient library filled with Warlocks and necromancers studying their art, or building your own castle with dungeons is content that has the potential to be massively successful all by itself
"The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games." - Lizardbones
Very true. The choice of game that one designs with any of the engines or toolkits is entirely up to them.
Well, I should definitely have qualified my statement a little further. The statement I was responding to was, "There are so many Theme Park MMORPG because of the ready availability of Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits". None of the theme park games recently released use a toolkit unless the developer made the toolkit themselves (like Cryptic has done). They may have used a game engine, but they did not use an MMORPG Toolkit, much less a Theme Park MMORPG Toolkit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The very definition of sandbox is a game that lets players build/do what they want.
I'd say most players want an unfair and dominant advantage over other players. You can't have that, the math doesn't work so they limit what you can do with the sand down to the level that it's not fun.
Just a simple example would be that I'd love to make quests. Think of a world where everyone that wanted to could form up their own quests. Sounds great, but what would happen is that players would immediately make quests for friends to do for in-game gold.
I like housing, let's let players build houses where they want. Players intentionally block doors to other players houses.
I like designs, and designing armor. Players start making x-rated designs and running around in game with them.
It's gotten so that you can't give the players sand or they'll ruin the very thing they want. You can't have a sandbox game when there's so many cats running around wanting to do their business in any sandbox that's available.
So I think there's no hope for a successful sandbox game.
The very definition of sandbox is a game that lets players build/do what they want.
I'd say most players want an unfair and dominant advantage over other players. You can't have that, the math doesn't work so they limit what you can do with the sand down to the level that it's not fun.
Just a simple example would be that I'd love to make quests. Think of a world where everyone that wanted to could form up their own quests. Sounds great, but what would happen is that players would immediately make quests for friends to do for in-game gold.
I like housing, let's let players build houses where they want. Players intentionally block doors to other players houses.
I like designs, and designing armor. Players start making x-rated designs and running around in game with them.
It's gotten so that you can't give the players sand or they'll ruin the very thing they want. You can't have a sandbox game when there's so many cats running around wanting to do their business in any sandbox that's available.
So I think there's no hope for a successful sandbox game.
Just a simple example would be that I'd love to make quests. Think of a world where everyone that wanted to could form up their own quests. Sounds great, but what would happen is that players would immediately make quests for friends to do for in-game gold.
I think this is very doable. You would have to offer some of your own money and or items as a quest reward. Say you need x amount of a certain item as a crafter. You go to a quest giver in the area set up the quest and then PvE players can run them for the reward/xp and you get your mats.Essentially you would be creating the kill x rats type of quest but at least it would have a real purpose.
Indie sandbox developers should think more about "what they can do without" rather than "what more can they do". Feature lists I've seen are usually unfocused and have too many features (many of them non-critical and many of them "half-arsed"). That would be a good first step toward better indie sandbox MMOs, I think.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I'm not even remotely suggesting that you could build WOW, EVE, LOTRO, SWTOR, etc out of any of these, but they exist and, in most cases, are very affordable.
"The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games." - Lizardbones
Very true. The choice of game that one designs with any of the engines or toolkits is entirely up to them.
Well, I should definitely have qualified my statement a little further. The statement I was responding to was, "There are so many Theme Park MMORPG because of the ready availability of Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits". None of the theme park games recently released use a toolkit unless the developer made the toolkit themselves (like Cryptic has done). They may have used a game engine, but they did not use an MMORPG Toolkit, much less a Theme Park MMORPG Toolkit.
U have no logical point to stand on.
Because none of the recently released MMO are what He's talking about. The run-of-the-mill MMO's, are the ones you see advertized all over this website. Rusty Hearts, Dragon Nest, Fieststa Online, etc.
The point is, they are ALL zoned games.
Lizard..
You simply are unable to connect that Themepark (no matter what styleization, story, or characters), ...are just zones & instances.
Thus, the Developers are religated to pushing "Public Quests/Rift" in your face, to hide & bemuse people. To get them to strategically move throughout their world, as the developers want you to.
IE: Moving to one area ride, to the next.. but with just a slightly different theme, aka themepark. Thus, the only way to play their game. Hiding the fact, that just behind that house and over that rockpile is that Hermit cave thats a 20 minute run from there, etc. (ie shallow gameplay, not real, not immersive)
So themeparks, instantly create non-sensicle content, that doesn't add to the game. Trying their best to hide the fact that just 200 feet away.. you cannot actually go behind that house. It is essentially the end of the game.
Sandboxes are Open World designs. They are completely and fundmentally different & you havn't a clue of what you are talking about. You do not even hint at, or pertain to include knowledge in any of your posts.
Other than a few MAJOR titles, predominantly most MMOs released each month ARE from "Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits ".
BUT.. it is only because the HARDWARE to run these "Themepark/Zone-based" MMo's.. can cost as little as $85k -vs- millions.
Hance, very little upstart cost verse knowing you will need $Millions for a server farm for an open world design MMO like ArcheAge, etc.
You argument is moot
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I'm not even remotely suggesting that you could build WOW, EVE, LOTRO, SWTOR, etc out of any of these, but they exist and, in most cases, are very affordable.
"The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games." - Lizardbones
Very true. The choice of game that one designs with any of the engines or toolkits is entirely up to them.
Well, I should definitely have qualified my statement a little further. The statement I was responding to was, "There are so many Theme Park MMORPG because of the ready availability of Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits". None of the theme park games recently released use a toolkit unless the developer made the toolkit themselves (like Cryptic has done). They may have used a game engine, but they did not use an MMORPG Toolkit, much less a Theme Park MMORPG Toolkit.
U have no logical point to stand on.
Because none of the recently released MMO are what He's talking about. The run-of-the-mill MMO's, are the ones you see advertized all over this website. Rusty Hearts, Dragon Nest, Fieststa Online, etc.
The point is, they are ALL zoned games.
Lizard..
You simply are unable to connect that Themepark (no matter what styleization, story, or characters... are just zones & instances. Thus, they are religated to Dev's using Public Quests/Rift to bemuse people to get them to strategically move over the their world, as the developers want you to.
Because it is the only way to play the game, otherwise their server structure and actual game world.. would be too small to play in.
So themeparks, instantly create non-sensicle content, that doesn't add to the game. Trying their best to hide the fact that just 200 feet away.. you cannot actually go behind that house. It is essentially the end of the game.
Sandboxes are Open World designs. They are completely and fundmentally different & you havn't a clue of what you are talking about. You do not even hint at, or pertain to include knowledge in any of your posts.
Other than a few MAJOR titles, predominantly most MMOs released each month ARE from "Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits ".
BUT.. it is only because the HARDWARE to run these "Themepark/Zone-based" MMo's.. can cost as little as $85k -vs- millions.
Hance, very little upstart cost verse knowing you will need $Millions for a server farm for an open world design MMO like ArcheAge, etc.
You argument is moot
Zones and instances have nothing to do with themepark or sandbox. You can have full player driven content, economy, skills... with zones as well as open-world.
Ryzom is zoned. Istaria is open world. Both are considered sandbox (although I have my own opinion of Ryzom). And the cost is virtually shared between them as well. WoW ~50 million, SWTOR, 75+ million, Darkfall 10 million, Istaria 10 Million, Eve less than 10 million.
There really is no difference in costs between themepark and sandbox. The costs are all derived by the content they choose to put in (both can have a little or a lot) and the number of devs/man hours of devs they have creating it.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I'm not even remotely suggesting that you could build WOW, EVE, LOTRO, SWTOR, etc out of any of these, but they exist and, in most cases, are very affordable.
"The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games." - Lizardbones
Very true. The choice of game that one designs with any of the engines or toolkits is entirely up to them.
Well, I should definitely have qualified my statement a little further. The statement I was responding to was, "There are so many Theme Park MMORPG because of the ready availability of Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits". None of the theme park games recently released use a toolkit unless the developer made the toolkit themselves (like Cryptic has done). They may have used a game engine, but they did not use an MMORPG Toolkit, much less a Theme Park MMORPG Toolkit.
U have no logical point to stand on.
Because none of the recently released MMO are what He's talking about. The run-of-the-mill MMO's, are the ones you see advertized all over this website. Rusty Hearts, Dragon Nest, Fieststa Online, etc.
The point is, they are ALL zoned games.
Lizard..
You simply are unable to connect that Themepark (no matter what styleization, story, or characters... are just zones & instances. Thus, they are religated to Dev's using Public Quests/Rift to bemuse people to get them to strategically move over the their world, as the developers want you to.
Because it is the only way to play the game, otherwise their server structure and actual game world.. would be too small to play in.
So themeparks, instantly create non-sensicle content, that doesn't add to the game. Trying their best to hide the fact that just 200 feet away.. you cannot actually go behind that house. It is essentially the end of the game.
Sandboxes are Open World designs. They are completely and fundmentally different & you havn't a clue of what you are talking about. You do not even hint at, or pertain to include knowledge in any of your posts.
Other than a few MAJOR titles, predominantly most MMOs released each month ARE from "Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits ".
BUT.. it is only because the HARDWARE to run these "Themepark/Zone-based" MMo's.. can cost as little as $85k -vs- millions.
Hance, very little upstart cost verse knowing you will need $Millions for a server farm for an open world design MMO like ArcheAge, etc.
You argument is moot
Zones and instances have nothing to do with themepark or sandbox. You can have full player driven content, economy, skills... with zones as well as open-world.
Ryzom is zoned. Istaria is open world. Both are considered sandbox (although I have my own opinion of Ryzom). And the cost is virtually shared between them as well. WoW ~50 million, SWTOR, 75+ million, Darkfall 10 million, Istaria 10 Million, Eve less than 10 million.
There really is no difference in costs between themepark and sandbox. The costs are all derived by the content they choose to put in (both can have a little or a lot) and the number of devs/man hours of devs they have creating it.
Venge
You are utterly wrong.
They server structure upon which the game is built, nearly almostn always defines the type of game these developers will bring to you.
Secondly, Ryzom server structure is old, insignificant to my remarks. But even so,, look at EQ2, vs DAOC & WoW. All zoned games.. all presented differently to the end-user.
DAOC had seamless zones & most of WoW's were seamless. EQ2 strait up had loading screens (thnx Smedly).
So.. in your own ignorance you cannot compartmentalize what a Zone wall is? ...means?
It means^ the developer had to "cheese" the game. (due to the limitation in hardware)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I'm not even remotely suggesting that you could build WOW, EVE, LOTRO, SWTOR, etc out of any of these, but they exist and, in most cases, are very affordable.
"The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games." - Lizardbones
Very true. The choice of game that one designs with any of the engines or toolkits is entirely up to them.
Well, I should definitely have qualified my statement a little further. The statement I was responding to was, "There are so many Theme Park MMORPG because of the ready availability of Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits". None of the theme park games recently released use a toolkit unless the developer made the toolkit themselves (like Cryptic has done). They may have used a game engine, but they did not use an MMORPG Toolkit, much less a Theme Park MMORPG Toolkit.
U have no logical point to stand on.
Because none of the recently released MMO are what He's talking about. The run-of-the-mill MMO's, are the ones you see advertized all over this website. Rusty Hearts, Dragon Nest, Fieststa Online, etc.
The point is, they are ALL zoned games.
Lizard..
You simply are unable to connect that Themepark (no matter what styleization, story, or characters... are just zones & instances. Thus, they are religated to Dev's using Public Quests/Rift to bemuse people to get them to strategically move over the their world, as the developers want you to.
Because it is the only way to play the game, otherwise their server structure and actual game world.. would be too small to play in.
So themeparks, instantly create non-sensicle content, that doesn't add to the game. Trying their best to hide the fact that just 200 feet away.. you cannot actually go behind that house. It is essentially the end of the game.
Sandboxes are Open World designs. They are completely and fundmentally different & you havn't a clue of what you are talking about. You do not even hint at, or pertain to include knowledge in any of your posts.
Other than a few MAJOR titles, predominantly most MMOs released each month ARE from "Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits ".
BUT.. it is only because the HARDWARE to run these "Themepark/Zone-based" MMo's.. can cost as little as $85k -vs- millions.
Hance, very little upstart cost verse knowing you will need $Millions for a server farm for an open world design MMO like ArcheAge, etc.
You argument is moot
Zones and instances have nothing to do with themepark or sandbox. You can have full player driven content, economy, skills... with zones as well as open-world.
Ryzom is zoned. Istaria is open world. Both are considered sandbox (although I have my own opinion of Ryzom). And the cost is virtually shared between them as well. WoW ~50 million, SWTOR, 75+ million, Darkfall 10 million, Istaria 10 Million, Eve less than 10 million.
There really is no difference in costs between themepark and sandbox. The costs are all derived by the content they choose to put in (both can have a little or a lot) and the number of devs/man hours of devs they have creating it.
Venge
You are utterly wrong.
They server structure upon which the game is built, nearly almostn always defines the type of game these developers will bring to you.
If your assumption was correct then it would be impossible to make a sandbox with zones or a themepark without zones, or a cheap/expensive sandbox, or cheap/expensive themepark. However there are games like that, therefore you are wrong.
All I need to do to disprove your theory isfind one game. Done. Ryzom, a zoned sandbox.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So I'm sitting here watching TV and I started to think about Skyrim, and how much I love the game. I've never actually played a Sandbox MMO but I'm growing in love with the whole Sandbox style that Skyrim offers. Then I thought, why aren't there any good Sandbox MMOs? (some say Darkfall is good, but I've heard both sides) And I thought about it somemore, and then I realized this. Maybe the reason that Sandbox MMOs don't stick is because even with a Sandbox MMO you still cannot explore the entire world, you're still stuck to ceritan zones or areas. Take Skyrim for example. The Monstor's / Humonoids scale to your level. You can literally explore every inch of the world and still be able to kill something. If you go to the farthest north point, or the farthest south point, it's all the same. Could this possibly be why Sandbox MMOs do not stick? Or is there some other aspect that I'm clearly not thinking of.
I did. You stated, "Themepark (no matter what styleization, story, or characters... are just zones & instances" and, "Sandboxes are Open World designs." and this is because, "They server structure upon which the game is built, nearly almostn always defines the type of game these developers will bring to you."
If that were completely true it would be impossible to create a Sandbox game with zones. However since there are sandbox games with zones your theory must be false.
Now you can stated that it may be harder but you can't state that a sandbox or themepark is what they are because of zones. That has been proven false.
Venge
edit - and Vanguard is an example of the other. A themepark game with an open world.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think it's primarily about money. Most game developers are in it for money, and themepark games typically have much easier learning curves and a "hand holding" feel that attracts a very large amount of players and play types.
Of course there are companies that are breaking the mold, such as Aventurine with Darkfall, but most publishers and developers are in it for the money.
It's a shame really, because there are a lot of us old-school gamers like myself that are looking for a good sandbox MMO but no one has really made one yet (with the exception of EVE if you like that style). I still have faith that Aventurine's Darkfall 2.0 will deliver what so many of us crave, but only time will tell.
The Sims is a sandbox. Minecraft is a sandbox. Skyrim is absolutely not a sandbox. It's exactly the opposite of one, a quintessential themepark, and a dang good one at that. It isn't "instanced" so much as divided up into one overworld leading to a variety of zoned areas to conserve processor and memory use. This has nothing to with whether it's a sandbox or not, it's just intelligent game design.
Right now the best sandboxes simply cannot compete with the best themeparks. I do not think there is some inherent flaw in sandboxes- their downfall often comes from two unintended consequences of such an ambition game design. First, the sheer technical logistics of such a massive modifiable environment required to serve thousands of players is incredibly expensive to develop and maintain. Without this kind of resources, bugs and bad client reliability is inevitable. Second, griefers and crafters are eternally at war in any sandbox style MMO, and careful balance mechanics are necessary to appease them both. Most sandbox titles fail at one or both of those areas.
In the future, when petabyte servers are practical and affordable and we get internet connections here like found in Korea, we may see indie devs making amazing sandbox titles that boom in popularity like Minecraft. For the time being, technology and the market make it infeasible except for a few Asian developers.
Comments
I actually LOL'd at that (not because of you) because the truth is developers DO have a toolkit for Themepark Rails and thats mainly the reason why you see so many of them. I don't know of any Sandbox toolkits (or at least remotely up-to-current technology which would affect competitiveness of the product) which means devs have to make Sandboxes more or less from scratch.
I guess you kind of answered your own question partly.
As far as people putting up with it: well simply, we don't control the world/market/circumstance [yes, we could do something to change it but that would require tons of work and most just aren't that passionate and/or readily capable of pulling it off] so we just make do with whats available. I suppose you could scorn people about it but it won't actually change anything. Also business dictates what resources are available to developers and they rarely care about anything beyond making money.
{I believe Todd Howard in one of Skyrim's interviews stated:" Anyone can have a great idea, It takes a lot of work to make it happen" - not an exact quote} Not the first to say it but it definately is true.
{EDIT: Now that I think of it most games, including Themepark, have a Sandbox version that isn't released: The developer version they work with when they are making since the developer tools are what provide the functionality to create persistent changes/effects on the game environment. Which in an MMO would need to updated for each and every player encountering said changes/effects.}
<snip>
Please show us this Theme Park On Rails Toolkit that has been used to create so many games. There are hundreds, nay, thousands of people who would like to see it*.
* Just in case anyone is wondering, it doesn't exist. You're going to have to write everything from network code to the chat server yourself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Check out Multiverse Client, or Hero Engine (Champions Online and recently SWTOR) off the top of my head. Pretty much every feature they make is made from a Toolkit which made by an actual coder (making games =/= programming anymore but it definately helps).
Bye bye Troll and say hello to ignore.
Multiverse is a browser front end that seems to be concentrating mostly on Flash shooters, not a "themepark on rails toolkit". HE is a fairly straightforward flexible game engine that could be used for either sandboxes or themeparks.
You have a pretty odd definition of troll, by the way.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ultima Online closed down?
Oh wait, it's still going. Is it making billions? No, but it's still around. Staying power counts for something. I don't think Sandbox games fail to work, they just don't attract bored housewives and l33tdooderz.
And that's fine by me.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Heh...Yeah, well..I hope the current direction keeps up, to where hybrids that have more sandbox than the rails of the last 5 or so years do well.
I think a hybrid that is done properly would give both sides what they are looking for, you could easily have different rule sets for servers that would easily help accomplish this...From FFA kill everyone, PvP with ruleset to discourage rampant ganking, to PvE with controlled PvP.
I prefer sandbox type features, due to depth (housing and such), player economy, quality crafting/harvesting, freedom of skill based characters, open world/dungeons...Vanguard would be considered a themepark by many, but I think it was more hybrid, due to its quality of crafting/harvesting, vast world, housing and such....If only it could of released in a better state and performed better on cpus.
I am just hoping to get off the rails, once I reach level cap in current mmos, I lose interest fast, due to no quality game options imo....A lot of people will disagree, but its my opinion.
Sandbox MMOs DO work. UO and Eve have been running for ages. If SWG hadn't done the NGE it could have lasted for much longer. The perception that they don't work is caused by the few sandbox titles coming out since those games all being done by small indie studios. Where the big money has gone towards theme park designs, often themed after an IP.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
You have a pretty odd definition of troll, by the way.
They have a pretty odd definition of 'Theme Park Toolkit' as well. Those engines, as they are presented are for small scale development or for demonstrations only. If you want a large scale game, you'll be recreating a lot of what those 'kits' give you for your small scale work. Bioware did not take the Hero Engine and use it as is to create SWToR. I can't think of anyone who's used the Multiverse engine for anything.
There is no 'Theme Park Toolkit'. There's not even a toolkit for MMORPG. The network code, the server code and even the chat code/chat server code is all going to be written or rewritten by the developer in the course of creating their game.
The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"There's not even a toolkit for MMORPG. " - Lizardbones
There's actually LOTS of them. Here's a few:
2D - http://www.genesis2d.net http://www.explore-rpg.com
3D - http://realmcrafter.com
I'm not even remotely suggesting that you could build WOW, EVE, LOTRO, SWTOR, etc out of any of these, but they exist and, in most cases, are very affordable.
"The available tools have nothing to do with the commercial success of theme park games." - Lizardbones
Very true. The choice of game that one designs with any of the engines or toolkits is entirely up to them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The main reason i think why most sandbox mmorpgs do not work is because most of the time they are developed my a indie company that does not have the funds to complete the game before launch so they have to launch earlier to get money in Promise big things are coming and while they are working on all the bugs and glitchs and adding content they player base gets tired of waiting for newer content then they just decided not to even play no more.
Playing: Single player games |
Awaiting: Wild Star |Blade & Soul | The Repopulation | The Elder Scrolls online | ArcheAge | Firefall | Survarium | Bless | Black Desert |
Played: Guild Wars | Diablo 3 |The War Z | Runescape |World of Warcraft |Combat Arms |Perfect World | Rift | Fiesta | DC universe online | Aion | Age of Conan |Allods | Vindictus | The Secret World | Forge | Battle of the Immortals | Global Agenda| Cabal Online | Tera |
Why they are only developed by indie companies, is a more interesting question. Not the fact that they are.
Indie companies know two things.
1. They can't compete with WoW or it's lesser cousins with their funds
2. To be successful with a small development team and smaller funds, you have to hit an untapped market with little to no competition. EvE does not count as competition since It's a space MMO. Being a space MMO it's a corner market on its own.
That's where the idea of making a sandbox comes in. You spend less time creating interesting quests and content by letting the players make form content themselves. Best way to do that is focus mainly on FFA PvP and less on the PvE side which takes considerably more time and money to develop. All this while going for a corner market with no major competition.
In order to attract the big money and the bigger developers, a game has to have mass appeal in order to sell well. A game that lets you kill and loot all the equipment of other players is a penalty that does not have mass appeal.
What sandbox games have mass appeal? Look at games like Minecraft, Terraria and the likes. What about them makes them sell millions of copies. Although they are not MMOs their concepts can easily be incorporated into one (I said concepts, not straight ports). If developers would have that as their main focus without giving others the ability to burn it down and you have a recipy of a good mainstream sandbox a lot of people would play
I hope one day a big name developer realizes that, digging deep underground and coming across an ancient library filled with Warlocks and necromancers studying their art, or building your own castle with dungeons is content that has the potential to be massively successful all by itself
Well, I should definitely have qualified my statement a little further. The statement I was responding to was, "There are so many Theme Park MMORPG because of the ready availability of Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits". None of the theme park games recently released use a toolkit unless the developer made the toolkit themselves (like Cryptic has done). They may have used a game engine, but they did not use an MMORPG Toolkit, much less a Theme Park MMORPG Toolkit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The very definition of sandbox is a game that lets players build/do what they want.
I'd say most players want an unfair and dominant advantage over other players. You can't have that, the math doesn't work so they limit what you can do with the sand down to the level that it's not fun.
Just a simple example would be that I'd love to make quests. Think of a world where everyone that wanted to could form up their own quests. Sounds great, but what would happen is that players would immediately make quests for friends to do for in-game gold.
I like housing, let's let players build houses where they want. Players intentionally block doors to other players houses.
I like designs, and designing armor. Players start making x-rated designs and running around in game with them.
It's gotten so that you can't give the players sand or they'll ruin the very thing they want. You can't have a sandbox game when there's so many cats running around wanting to do their business in any sandbox that's available.
So I think there's no hope for a successful sandbox game.
Asdar
Tell that to Notch
I think this is very doable. You would have to offer some of your own money and or items as a quest reward. Say you need x amount of a certain item as a crafter. You go to a quest giver in the area set up the quest and then PvE players can run them for the reward/xp and you get your mats.Essentially you would be creating the kill x rats type of quest but at least it would have a real purpose.
My theme song.
Indie sandbox developers should think more about "what they can do without" rather than "what more can they do". Feature lists I've seen are usually unfocused and have too many features (many of them non-critical and many of them "half-arsed"). That would be a good first step toward better indie sandbox MMOs, I think.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
U have no logical point to stand on.
Because none of the recently released MMO are what He's talking about. The run-of-the-mill MMO's, are the ones you see advertized all over this website. Rusty Hearts, Dragon Nest, Fieststa Online, etc.
The point is, they are ALL zoned games.
Lizard..
You simply are unable to connect that Themepark (no matter what styleization, story, or characters), ...are just zones & instances.
Thus, the Developers are religated to pushing "Public Quests/Rift" in your face, to hide & bemuse people. To get them to strategically move throughout their world, as the developers want you to.
IE: Moving to one area ride, to the next.. but with just a slightly different theme, aka themepark. Thus, the only way to play their game. Hiding the fact, that just behind that house and over that rockpile is that Hermit cave thats a 20 minute run from there, etc. (ie shallow gameplay, not real, not immersive)
So themeparks, instantly create non-sensicle content, that doesn't add to the game. Trying their best to hide the fact that just 200 feet away.. you cannot actually go behind that house. It is essentially the end of the game.
Sandboxes are Open World designs. They are completely and fundmentally different & you havn't a clue of what you are talking about. You do not even hint at, or pertain to include knowledge in any of your posts.
Other than a few MAJOR titles, predominantly most MMOs released each month ARE from "Theme Park MMORPG Toolkits ".
BUT.. it is only because the HARDWARE to run these "Themepark/Zone-based" MMo's.. can cost as little as $85k -vs- millions.
Hance, very little upstart cost verse knowing you will need $Millions for a server farm for an open world design MMO like ArcheAge, etc.
You argument is moot
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Zones and instances have nothing to do with themepark or sandbox. You can have full player driven content, economy, skills... with zones as well as open-world.
Ryzom is zoned. Istaria is open world. Both are considered sandbox (although I have my own opinion of Ryzom). And the cost is virtually shared between them as well. WoW ~50 million, SWTOR, 75+ million, Darkfall 10 million, Istaria 10 Million, Eve less than 10 million.
There really is no difference in costs between themepark and sandbox. The costs are all derived by the content they choose to put in (both can have a little or a lot) and the number of devs/man hours of devs they have creating it.
Venge
You are utterly wrong.
They server structure upon which the game is built, nearly almostn always defines the type of game these developers will bring to you.
Secondly, Ryzom server structure is old, insignificant to my remarks. But even so,, look at EQ2, vs DAOC & WoW. All zoned games.. all presented differently to the end-user.
DAOC had seamless zones & most of WoW's were seamless. EQ2 strait up had loading screens (thnx Smedly).
So.. in your own ignorance you cannot compartmentalize what a Zone wall is? ...means?
It means^ the developer had to "cheese" the game. (due to the limitation in hardware)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
If your assumption was correct then it would be impossible to make a sandbox with zones or a themepark without zones, or a cheap/expensive sandbox, or cheap/expensive themepark. However there are games like that, therefore you are wrong.
All I need to do to disprove your theory isfind one game. Done. Ryzom, a zoned sandbox.
Venge
read above
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Money.
I did. You stated, "Themepark (no matter what styleization, story, or characters... are just zones & instances" and, "Sandboxes are Open World designs." and this is because, "They server structure upon which the game is built, nearly almostn always defines the type of game these developers will bring to you."
If that were completely true it would be impossible to create a Sandbox game with zones. However since there are sandbox games with zones your theory must be false.
Now you can stated that it may be harder but you can't state that a sandbox or themepark is what they are because of zones. That has been proven false.
Venge
edit - and Vanguard is an example of the other. A themepark game with an open world.
I think it's primarily about money. Most game developers are in it for money, and themepark games typically have much easier learning curves and a "hand holding" feel that attracts a very large amount of players and play types.
Of course there are companies that are breaking the mold, such as Aventurine with Darkfall, but most publishers and developers are in it for the money.
It's a shame really, because there are a lot of us old-school gamers like myself that are looking for a good sandbox MMO but no one has really made one yet (with the exception of EVE if you like that style). I still have faith that Aventurine's Darkfall 2.0 will deliver what so many of us crave, but only time will tell.
The Sims is a sandbox. Minecraft is a sandbox. Skyrim is absolutely not a sandbox. It's exactly the opposite of one, a quintessential themepark, and a dang good one at that. It isn't "instanced" so much as divided up into one overworld leading to a variety of zoned areas to conserve processor and memory use. This has nothing to with whether it's a sandbox or not, it's just intelligent game design.
Right now the best sandboxes simply cannot compete with the best themeparks. I do not think there is some inherent flaw in sandboxes- their downfall often comes from two unintended consequences of such an ambition game design. First, the sheer technical logistics of such a massive modifiable environment required to serve thousands of players is incredibly expensive to develop and maintain. Without this kind of resources, bugs and bad client reliability is inevitable. Second, griefers and crafters are eternally at war in any sandbox style MMO, and careful balance mechanics are necessary to appease them both. Most sandbox titles fail at one or both of those areas.
In the future, when petabyte servers are practical and affordable and we get internet connections here like found in Korea, we may see indie devs making amazing sandbox titles that boom in popularity like Minecraft. For the time being, technology and the market make it infeasible except for a few Asian developers.