go to 3:45 in and listen to how he desribes an alive world it will give you a better idea what I'm talking about
So, the big complaints are no weather, no day and night cycle, no crickets chirping in the background, and mob spawns not being completely randomized and then wandering all over the map? Just trying to clarify before I respond.
i am not sure on others complaints (i liked the scenary and the worlds in general) but i see the lifeless part as random npcs just in looped animation - 2 guards checking some peasant with the same loop over and over does not make it feel very alive (even moreso when you have to save random person from a bunch of baddies and the local guards are just standing there looping their animations 2 yards from you - cannot elaborate since spoilers are not fun :P)
True, but MMO mechanics are a worse than "good enough" for non MMO games. So I think relative to a single player experience, the gameplay suffers. Dragon Age: Origins, despite borrowing some Holy Trinity ideas (to my annoyance) has much stronger and more interesting mechanics than any Trinity-based MMO.
Granted this doesn't bother some people. I am just pointing out there's a difference between this and Bioware's usual fair.
It's not likely to bother BioWare gamers, because they are used to it from the company. It's not likely to bother WoW gamers, because most of it is pretty much straight out lifted from vanilla WoW. For the most part, the people who are going to be bothered by lack of mechanical "innovation" are probably people who just straight out already don't like BioWare's approach to game design, and weren't interested in this game in the first place.
I've played every Bioware game pretty much and it bothers me. Again, the gameplay IS worse than a normal bioware game, because WoW-like mechanics are worse. But thanks for speaking for all Bioware gamers everywhere.
Is this not EA(bioware) with LUCAS? i am sure things might have turned out different if it were just BIOWARE
go to 3:45 in and listen to how he desribes an alive world it will give you a better idea what I'm talking about
So, the big complaints are no weather, no day and night cycle, no crickets chirping in the background, and mob spawns not being completely randomized and then wandering all over the map? Just trying to clarify before I respond.
also watch the rift video I added in that post but like Vhaln said its hard to describe but pretty much a mixture of all that in essense makes you immerse yourself more with the game allowing the story to draw you in. Right now its mostly get back to the npcs as fast as possible to see what happens next in the quest chain cause inbetween there isn't much going on.
i think there are flaws/negatives with Swtor that are not themepark QQ.
there are several issues that suggest that the game is shabby in general. things that point to poor coding, or poor planning, or lack luster game aesthetics. jerky animations, stuttery rail transit, ameteur UI graphics ...things that might be lumped under half assed execution/polish
there's also the more ephemeral gripes about only 4 classes/mirrored classes. and limited races and extremely poor char gen. things like this. that tend to make people feel no real effort was made to make the game exemplary ... that it's a GED game as opposed to a AAA mmo
that being said. some of these are mitigated by it being a Beta still. and in that many of the glitchy things can and will be patched out hopefully in the first 6 mo type of deal every mmo does.
then again. for the hype of this game. the franchise. of star wars and pedigree of BIoware ... it's shaping up to be a weak debut from 2 AAA names.
Some of those are fair, but I would question whether any of them are substantial. There are people who care passionately about character creation options, including species selection, but it seems fairly obvious that it isn't a core issue for most MMO gamers. WoW has had worse character creation and customization than almost every other MMO for years, and is still by far the most successful. And game critics don't seem to place any importance on the issue, look at the score for Rift. On Metacritic it's listed as having 56 positive reviews, 3 mixed, and 0 negative, and it's character creation and racial selection at launch was *far* more limited than TOR's.
As for the technical issues you mention, I didn't notice a single one of them when I was in the last couple weekends of beta. The only technical issues I had were disappearing recipe details in the crafting windows, and getting stuck in place on Taris. Relative to other MMO betas, including Rift's, I found it to be by far the least noticeably buggy and most polished there has ever been.
Thats not the issue with Character customization he's talking about.
Every race has the same facial options/body type and even many of the same hair styles in TOR. They basically took 1 character model, changed the skin color, and for each race added a frill (for example the Cyborg's gadgets).
In WoW, you cant customize your individual character as much, however there is a distinct difference in looks and movements between all 12 of their races.
I mean, did you even look at the article "5 things NOT to like about SW:TOR" on this site?
#2 - Character Customization. Look at the picture in the article, and tell me that its not an issue.
As for the techinical issues, just because YOUR experience didn't include them doesn't mean that he was the only one. I had many of the same issues he did, and for a game thats being released in 17 days (just over 2 weeks), it has A LOT of issues. Everyone on this forum keeps using the excuse "It's in beta" which it is, but you seem to forget just how close release actually is.
My opinion: Wait 3-6 months before playing, because hopefully they'll fix all the bugs they skipped to rush the game to a December 20th release.
True, but MMO mechanics are a worse than "good enough" for non MMO games. So I think relative to a single player experience, the gameplay suffers. Dragon Age: Origins, despite borrowing some Holy Trinity ideas (to my annoyance) has much stronger and more interesting mechanics than any Trinity-based MMO.
Granted this doesn't bother some people. I am just pointing out there's a difference between this and Bioware's usual fair.
It's not likely to bother BioWare gamers, because they are used to it from the company. It's not likely to bother WoW gamers, because most of it is pretty much straight out lifted from vanilla WoW. For the most part, the people who are going to be bothered by lack of mechanical "innovation" are probably people who just straight out already don't like BioWare's approach to game design, and weren't interested in this game in the first place.
^^ That to me is kind of the point. Outside of BioWare fans or Star Wars fans that maybe don't MMO much. Why do you think it wouldn't bother people who have seen "it" for the last 7 years or longer.
When you are in a saturated market and especially in a bad economy. Unless they think they are bringing new people into the market with their title... at some point the "same thing" is not going to appeal to people. That's just my opinion as a consumer I guess.
I think back in my gaming history to say the 80's and the wide diversity of games and even *I* played a larger variety of games. Now I hardly ever buy games or go back to older ones where I have a larget time investment. After I go through a story that might be slightly different.. I've already read this book and am looking for another one. (next game.. next book.. next movie) etc
The repeated design (core mechanics in a broader sense) just encourages people to move on.. which is why I can say TOR is a good game.. I'll play it for a month or two. Back in the day a good MMO was going to hold me for years...
True, but MMO mechanics are a worse than "good enough" for non MMO games. So I think relative to a single player experience, the gameplay suffers. Dragon Age: Origins, despite borrowing some Holy Trinity ideas (to my annoyance) has much stronger and more interesting mechanics than any Trinity-based MMO.
Granted this doesn't bother some people. I am just pointing out there's a difference between this and Bioware's usual fair.
It's not likely to bother BioWare gamers, because they are used to it from the company. It's not likely to bother WoW gamers, because most of it is pretty much straight out lifted from vanilla WoW. For the most part, the people who are going to be bothered by lack of mechanical "innovation" are probably people who just straight out already don't like BioWare's approach to game design, and weren't interested in this game in the first place.
I've played every Bioware game pretty much and it bothers me. Again, the gameplay IS worse than a normal bioware game, because WoW-like mechanics are worse. But thanks for speaking for all Bioware gamers everywhere.
+1 and QFT.
SWTOR is a step down in terms of RPG/storytelling and gameplay compared to Dragon Age 1 and Mass Effect1/2 ( i didn't play DA2 so can't comment.
This always happens when you go from single player to multiplayer unless. . . . unless the MMO developer adds quality multiplayer gameplay features that improve the game.
Bioware has not added anything multiplayer that "improves the experience" so what you get is a watered down Bioware game, in the star wars universe with decade old MMO gameplay..
joy !
You see there is a difference in taking <insert Lore here> to an MMO experience to capitalize on a different and more profitable business model than actually leveraging the hell out of the fact that you will have a massive amount of people on at one time and wrapping your design around that.
also watch the rift video I added in that post but like Vhaln said its hard to describe but pretty much a mixture of all that in essense makes you immerse yourself more with the game allowing the story to draw you in. Right now its mostly get back to the npcs as fast as possible to see what happens next in the quest chain cause inbetween there isn't much going on.
It is hard to describe, and I feel I did miss the mark. I wanted to just say look up videos for these different games, and if you can't see the issue, than I guess you can't see issue.. Seems like a cop-out, but I know its not the sort of thing everyone will notice. I think a lot of people do subconscously, and it effects overall impressions, so its more important than it may seem, though.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Was really excited about this game for a long time, then I played the beta. It does have a lot of nice features, but nothing is really giving me that staying power that say WoW had at release, then again it's just my personal opinion. Not going to bash on the game or anything but definately won't be playing this one. And yes I have been playing in the beta since the first few invites months ago, tried and tried and even ran with guildies, just not keeping me interested, but I mostly play games for the pvp and I found Tor's a bit dull. Although, if I hadn't played the beta I probably would had bought it to try it out. Guess it's their loss.
It is hard to describe, and I feel I did miss the mark. I wanted to just say look up videos for these different games, and if you can't see the issue, than I guess you can't see issue.. Seems like a cop-out, but I know its not the sort of thing everyone will notice. I think a lot of people do subconscously, and it effects overall impressions, so its more important than it may seem, though.
it has a HUGE impression for me and honestly makes the game feel like they didn't even try to make the world a living breathing entity for all the reasons already described. In a story based game I find this pretty unacceptable and considering the budget and time spent making the game its a huge letdown since I'm such a big fan of star wars and bioware games in general.
SWTOR is a step down in terms of RPG/storytelling and gameplay compared to Dragon Age 1 and Mass Effect1/2 ( i didn't play DA2 so can't comment.
This always happens when you go from single player to multiplayer unless. . . . unless the MMO developer adds quality multiplayer gameplay features that improve the game.
Bioware has not added anything multiplayer that "improves the experience" so what you get is a watered down Bioware game, in the star wars universe with decade old MMO gameplay..
joy !
You see there is a difference in taking to an MMO experience to capitalize on a different and more profitable business model than actually leveraging the hell out of the fact that you will have a massive amount of people on at one time and wrapping your design around that.
Bioware/EA did the former.
You have a point in that yes comparatively speaking it could be viewed as a bit watered down. That's comparing it to SPRPGs, as we've all seen them and played them, and know what to expect from them.
My exception here is the fact we're talking about applying this to a genre where it hasn't been applied at this level before. They have one semi-decent precursor to follow, which would be AOC. Which really had none, considering this it's not suprising that mistakes may have been made by both developers.
IMO this should be expected when applying something semi-new to an already established genre. It's essentially trying to marry two designs that have distinct differences. The risk of alienating fans of both respective genres is pretty high, much higher than the chances of actually pleasing the two IMO. Considering that it's no surprise feedback thus far has been a mixed bag.
When you're essentially designing two games in one, there's going to be oversight, areas where fans of one genre or the other feel are lacking, etc.. I'm not sure that can be avoided on a realistic budget and development schedule.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You have a point in that yes comparatively speaking it could be viewed as a bit watered down. That's comparing it to SPRPGs, as we've all seen them and played them, and know what to expect from them.
My exception here is the fact we're talking about applying this to a genre where it hasn't been applied at this level before. They have one semi-decent precursor to follow, which would be AOC. Which really had none, considering this it's not suprising that mistakes may have been made by both developers.
IMO this should be expected when applying something semi-new to an already established genre. It's essentially trying to marry two designs that have distinct differences. The risk of alienating fans of both respective genres is pretty high, much higher than the chances of actually pleasing the two IMO. Considering that it's no surprise feedback thus far has been a mixed bag.
When you're essentially designing two games in one, there's going to be oversight, areas where fans of one genre or the other feel are lacking, etc.. I'm not sure that can be avoided on a realistic budget and development schedule.
My big issue is yes they tried mashing two old ideas and tried ot make something new. Thing is each idea is old and has been around for a long time. Bioware has been making choice based games for awhile now and the MMO mechanics it took from the other themepark MMOs have been around forever. Im sure putting them together is a challenge but when you are using already set mechanics to leave so much out really puts a question as to what they have been working on all these years. Missing a lot of basic stuff from the MMO side of the house just makes me think they do not have a good plan for the longevity of this game.. maybe i'm wrong and in 6 months they release a huge expansion.. who knows but I think by now and with how many big releases have we seen in the last 10 years in the MMO field? people expect a little more of a AAA title. Maybe I'm being selfish in thinking that way but well see how the masses respond in a few weeks.
You have a point in that yes comparatively speaking it could be viewed as a bit watered down. That's comparing it to SPRPGs, as we've all seen them and played them, and know what to expect from them.
My exception here is the fact we're talking about applying this to a genre where it hasn't been applied at this level before. They have one semi-decent precursor to follow, which would be AOC. Which really had none, considering this it's not suprising that mistakes may have been made by both developers.
IMO this should be expected when applying something semi-new to an already established genre. It's essentially trying to marry two designs that have distinct differences. The risk of alienating fans of both respective genres is pretty high, much higher than the chances of actually pleasing the two IMO. Considering that it's no surprise feedback thus far has been a mixed bag.
When you're essentially designing two games in one, there's going to be oversight, areas where fans of one genre or the other feel are lacking, etc.. I'm not sure that can be avoided on a realistic budget and development schedule.
My big issue is yes they tried mashing two old ideas and tried ot make something new. Thing is each idea is old and has been around for a long time. Bioware has been making choice based games for awhile now and the MMO mechanics it took from the other themepark MMOs have been around forever. Im sure putting them together is a challenge but when you are using already set mechanics to leave so much out really puts a question as to what they have been working on all these years. Missing a lot of basic stuff from the MMO side of the house just makes me think they do not have a good plan for the longevity of this game.. maybe i'm wrong and in 6 months they release a huge expansion.. who knows but I think by now and with how many big releases have we seen in the last 10 years in the MMO field? people expect a little more of a AAA title. Maybe I'm being selfish in thinking that way but well see how the masses respond in a few weeks.
The longevity part is a question of mine as well, all I'm seeing is PVP for me, and that all depends on my guild sticking around.
I just hope others learn from any mistakes made and continue the trend FC started, by merging these two genres there could be something great as a result for the MMORPG genre as a whole. I don't feel that will be TOR, but in the future anything is possible.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My big issue is yes they tried mashing two old ideas and tried ot make something new. Thing is each idea is old and has been around for a long time. Bioware has been making choice based games for awhile now and the MMO mechanics it took from the other themepark MMOs have been around forever. Im sure putting them together is a challenge but when you are using already set mechanics to leave so much out really puts a question as to what they have been working on all these years. Missing a lot of basic stuff from the MMO side of the house just makes me think they do not have a good plan for the longevity of this game.. maybe i'm wrong and in 6 months they release a huge expansion.. who knows but I think by now and with how many big releases have we seen in the last 10 years in the MMO field? people expect a little more of a AAA title. Maybe I'm being selfish in thinking that way but well see how the masses respond in a few weeks.
Not sure I agree with you. First of all, the MMO ideas they are using, while older, are certainly not outdated. In fact, they are the ideas that many of today's successful MMOs use. As far as choice-based games being old...since when is having an actual story and choices an old thing? And are there any current MMOs that have this as part of their game? No, there aren't. So, although Bioware has been doing it for a while, this has NEVER been done to this extent in an MMO. So it's what I would call innovative.
I was fortunate enough to test this game, and I can honestly say that it has everything I would want from a AAA title, not less. There is some stuff missing, but none of it game-breaking, and most of it I would expect to be in the game fairly soon. And it will be releasing with more content than just about any other AAA themepark game out there.
They don't need a big expansion after 6 months to make this game better. They just need to pump out updates at a good pace and this game will be a terrific game for the still very large themepark crowd.
As for my personal wishlist of things I'd like to see implemented as soon as possible:
1) UI cusomization. I like the clean, minimalist look of the UI. Not a lot of clutter. However, we need to be able to resized and move things. This is one area that baffles me as far as why they didn't put it in game.
2) Allowing 3rd party mods. This isn't mandatory for me if they make the UI more flexible and add some mouseover options for healers. But it would definitely be a nice addition to this game.
3) Ship interior customization. They've got the shell of what can be a very effective housing system. Now they just need to expand on that and allow us some freedom in customizing our ships.
4) Free form space exploration. I think this one is going to take awhile. My guess is we won't see it until an expansion or major update, unfortunately.
5) More zones during the levelling process. This game has pretty good replay value due to the class stories, but I really think they can provide so much more by adding in more planets during the levelling that overlap. Giving players different choices on where to quest depending on level would be a great feature. I really don't want them to do what Rift did and concentrate ALL their updates on endgame play.
Not sure I agree with you. First of all, the MMO ideas they are using, while older, are certainly not outdated. In fact, they are the ideas that many of today's successful MMOs use. As far as choice-based games being old...since when is having an actual story and choices an old thing? And are there any current MMOs that have this as part of their game? No, there aren't. So, although Bioware has been doing it for a while, this has NEVER been done to this extent in an MMO. So it's what I would call innovative.
I was fortunate enough to test this game, and I can honestly say that it has everything I would want from a AAA title, not less. There is some stuff missing, but none of it game-breaking, and most of it I would expect to be in the game fairly soon. And it will be releasing with more content than just about any other AAA themepark game out there.
They don't need a big expansion after 6 months to make this game better. They just need to pump out updates at a good pace and this game will be a terrific game for the still very large themepark crowd.
choice based gaming has been around for ever maybe not in the MMO world but the way it flows is the exact same as all the other bioware games for the most part. All I was trying to point out they took two pre-existing ideas mashed them together yet didn't improve either of them. They are banking on the lore and the big name to be successful and its going to work at least for 3-6 months. But at 6 months if enough isn't added this game will not be the hit it could be(in my opinion). i tested the game as well and honestly didn't find a single thing during my play time that felt new or innovative. It's not bad by any means and i love star wars but to keep it going over years there just isn't enough ground work and I really think the shelf life will run short.
Not sure I agree with you. First of all, the MMO ideas they are using, while older, are certainly not outdated. In fact, they are the ideas that many of today's successful MMOs use. As far as choice-based games being old...since when is having an actual story and choices an old thing? And are there any current MMOs that have this as part of their game? No, there aren't. So, although Bioware has been doing it for a while, this has NEVER been done to this extent in an MMO. So it's what I would call innovative.
I was fortunate enough to test this game, and I can honestly say that it has everything I would want from a AAA title, not less. There is some stuff missing, but none of it game-breaking, and most of it I would expect to be in the game fairly soon. And it will be releasing with more content than just about any other AAA themepark game out there.
They don't need a big expansion after 6 months to make this game better. They just need to pump out updates at a good pace and this game will be a terrific game for the still very large themepark crowd.
choice based gaming has been around for ever maybe not in the MMO world but the way it flows is the exact same as all the other bioware games for the most part. All I was trying to point out they took two pre-existing ideas mashed them together yet didn't improve either of them. They are banking on the lore and the big name to be successful and its going to work at least for 3-6 months. But at 6 months if enough isn't added this game will not be the hit it could be(in my opinion). i tested the game as well and honestly didn't find a single thing during my play time that felt new or innovative. It's not bad by any means and i love star wars but to keep it going over years there just isn't enough ground work and I really think the shelf life will run short.
Not sure how you can say they took two pre-existing ideas and didn't improve upon them. In my experience in beta, they absolutely DID improve upon both of them. That's my opinion, of course. And no other MMO has had choice-based quests to the extent that TOR has. That's not opinion, that's a fact. Would I prefer more choices? Sure I would. But adding this feature in alone is a definite upgrade to what has come before. You're making the mistake of considering what single player RPGS have had and comparing it an MMO. This feature doesn't exist in current MMOs, therefore, it is better than what is out there...for MMOS. If a company made an MMO with twitch-based combat that involves aiming, people wouldn't say, "Oh well, that's already been done in many fps games." They'd say it was innovative for an MMO.
And I'll also agree to disagree with you on the comment about not enough groundwork being laid for future retention. This game is releasing with more features than most other themepark MMOs have after a year or two of being live.
Not sure how you can say they took two pre-existing ideas and didn't improve upon them. In my experience in beta, they absolutely DID improve upon both of them. That's my opinion, of course. And no other MMO has had choice-based quests to the extent that TOR has. That's not opinion, that's a fact. Would I prefer more choices? Sure I would. But adding this feature in alone is a definite upgrade to what has come before.
ok ill ellaborate a little. The dialog choice quest system is the same bioware has been using in all there single player games like kotor and mass effect and dragon age. In a MMO it's less effective because you can't have your choices effect the entire world liek you can in a single player game. They also took a step even further back by not really making your choices matter much aside from the light/dark points. If I decide to kill someone in kotor that person is dead from the world you cannot do this in an MMO obviously or no one else could do the quest. Also for example in dragon age you can choose to save an entire town or let it turn into wasteland these sort of things don't happen in this game cause of the MMO limitations. I could go on all day about the MMO elements and how they are a step back in many ways but there have been so many threads on this already I won't just paste them again.
Not sure I agree with you. First of all, the MMO ideas they are using, while older, are certainly not outdated. In fact, they are the ideas that many of today's successful MMOs use. As far as choice-based games being old...since when is having an actual story and choices an old thing? And are there any current MMOs that have this as part of their game? No, there aren't. So, although Bioware has been doing it for a while, this has NEVER been done to this extent in an MMO. So it's what I would call innovative.
I was fortunate enough to test this game, and I can honestly say that it has everything I would want from a AAA title, not less. There is some stuff missing, but none of it game-breaking, and most of it I would expect to be in the game fairly soon. And it will be releasing with more content than just about any other AAA themepark game out there.
They don't need a big expansion after 6 months to make this game better. They just need to pump out updates at a good pace and this game will be a terrific game for the still very large themepark crowd.
choice based gaming has been around for ever maybe not in the MMO world but the way it flows is the exact same as all the other bioware games for the most part. All I was trying to point out they took two pre-existing ideas mashed them together yet didn't improve either of them. They are banking on the lore and the big name to be successful and its going to work at least for 3-6 months. But at 6 months if enough isn't added this game will not be the hit it could be(in my opinion). i tested the game as well and honestly didn't find a single thing during my play time that felt new or innovative. It's not bad by any means and i love star wars but to keep it going over years there just isn't enough ground work and I really think the shelf life will run short.
Not sure how you can say they took two pre-existing ideas and didn't improve upon them. In my experience in beta, they absolutely DID improve upon both of them. That's my opinion, of course. And no other MMO has had choice-based quests to the extent that TOR has. That's not opinion, that's a fact. Would I prefer more choices? Sure I would. But adding this feature in alone is a definite upgrade to what has come before. You're making the mistake of considering what single player RPGS have had and comparing it an MMO. This feature doesn't exist in current MMOs, therefore, it is better than what is out there...for MMOS. If a company made an MMO with twitch-based combat that involves aiming, people wouldn't say, "Oh well, that's already been done in many fps games." They'd say it was innovative for an MMO.
And I'll also agree to disagree with you on the comment about not enough groundwork being laid for future retention. This game is releasing with more features than most other themepark MMOs have after a year or two of being live.
Choice based questing isn't really an mmo improvement, it's just the Fluff Bioware wanted to put into the game, its importance can be catorgorized with the importance of new mounts or unique lightsaber crystal colors. Their nice to have around but primarily just fluff in the end. The Fluff should merely accentuate the living world created for the players to be in, however the opposite appears true with TOR on many levels. Most of the new "features" TOR enthusiasts speak of are for the most part Fluff like VO an whatnot. Nothing important is a huge divergence from standard whack a mole, holy trinity themeparks.
ok ill ellaborate a little. The dialog choice quest system is the same bioware has been using in all there single player games like kotor and mass effect and dragon age. In a MMO it's less effective because you can't have your choices effect the entire world liek you can in a single player game. They also took a step even further back by not really making your choices matter much aside from the light/dark points. If I decide to kill someone in kotor that person is dead from the world you cannot do this in an MMO obviously or no one else could do the quest. Also for example in dragon age you can choose to save an entire town or let it turn into wasteland these sort of things don't happen in this game cause of the MMO limitations. I could go on all day about the MMO elements and how they are a step back in many ways but there have been so many threads on this already I won't just paste them again.
I'm not arguing that having choices in MMOs isn't quite as free as having them in SPRPGs. Based on the limitations of an MMO being an MMO, there is no doubt that the choices aren't as free or the consequences of those choices aren't as far-reaching as we see in single player RPGs, but to have SOME choice in an MMO does make a big difference. It makes a big difference in how quests are presented, and it makes a big difference in making you feel that you have some control over your character. Light side/ Dark side choices aren't going to affect your overall story to the point of changing entire questlines for you, but they do add an RPG element to your character that other MMOs do not do. This is undeniable.
Again, you are blaming Bioware for poor implementation when it is simply the genre itself that prohibits complete freedom. The freedom you get to slightly alter your story, or slightly alter your quests, or role play an actual alignment based on your actions cannot be brushed aside so easily. Only the harshest of critics or the most jaded of themeparkers could imply that this is in any way a step back for an MMO.
As far as the MMO elements being a step back, I disagree with that too. There are a few areas I would like to see revamped and improved, to be sure, but having played MMOs of all types for over a decade, particularly themepark games, I can say unequivocally for me, at least, this game has lived up to my expectations of a very, very good MMO. I also acknowledge there are some fixes I'd like to see before I label it as "great." I'd still give it a solid 8/10.
Choice based questing isn't really an mmo improvement, it's just the Fluff Bioware wanted to put into the game, its importance can be catorgorized with the importance of new mounts or unique lightsaber crystal colors. Their nice to have around but primarily just fluff in the end. The Fluff should merely accentuate the living world created for the players to be in, however the opposite appears true with TOR on many levels. Most of the new "features" TOR enthusiasts speak of are for the most part Fluff like VO an whatnot. Nothing important is a huge divergence from standard whack a mole, holy trinity themeparks.
I think the vast majority of people would disagree with you about choice-based questing not being an MMO improvement. It is certainly an improvement to the genre. Whether it's "fluff" or not is up for debate, and I can see both sides of that argument, but not an improvement? I definitely disagree with that wholheartedly.
Its a bit simplistic of a summation of thought, but overall, I basically agree with you. People who are themepark inclined will more than likely enjoy it much better than the sandbox inclined.
In addition, reading all of these (about 1 million at last count... you can count 'em, i'm not lying) I think that the game won't be breaking too many MMO established norms, but may improve on some of them.
It will bring some relatively new things into the genre which I haven't really seen. The heavy story acting, paths.. as well as the crafting system which seems fairly unique. (At this point I duck, because I will quickly be pointed to games that have these) However, they don't seem widespread so, its kinda new to be at the forefront (IMO)
In summation, I think its gonna be a fun romp for most casual games. Those sandbox types (myself included) will never be happy with anything you put before us, so just ignore the crowd. Even though I'm a sandboxer, I'm looking forward to it.
As far as the MMO elements being a step back, I disagree with that too. There are a few areas I would like to see revamped and improved, to be sure, but having played MMOs of all types for over a decade, particularly themepark games, I can say unequivocally for me, at least, this game has lived up to my expectations of a very, very good MMO. I also acknowledge there are some fixes I'd like to see before I label it as "great." I'd still give it a solid 8/10.
just curious what elements you find new or a step forward in the themepark sense? My last MMO was rift and everything in that game in this respect felt more polished. From the ability to change roles on the fly(as long as outside combat), to the UI options, to the way lfg works, from the cross server dungeon finder, or cross server warfront que, I could go on and on. Just curious what you found in this game that is a step up in that regard.
True, but MMO mechanics are a worse than "good enough" for non MMO games. So I think relative to a single player experience, the gameplay suffers. Dragon Age: Origins, despite borrowing some Holy Trinity ideas (to my annoyance) has much stronger and more interesting mechanics than any Trinity-based MMO.
Granted this doesn't bother some people. I am just pointing out there's a difference between this and Bioware's usual fair.
It's not likely to bother BioWare gamers, because they are used to it from the company. It's not likely to bother WoW gamers, because most of it is pretty much straight out lifted from vanilla WoW. For the most part, the people who are going to be bothered by lack of mechanical "innovation" are probably people who just straight out already don't like BioWare's approach to game design, and weren't interested in this game in the first place.
^^ That to me is kind of the point. Outside of BioWare fans or Star Wars fans that maybe don't MMO much. Why do you think it wouldn't bother people who have seen "it" for the last 7 years or longer.
When you are in a saturated market and especially in a bad economy. Unless they think they are bringing new people into the market with their title... at some point the "same thing" is not going to appeal to people. That's just my opinion as a consumer I guess.
I think back in my gaming history to say the 80's and the wide diversity of games and even *I* played a larger variety of games. Now I hardly ever buy games or go back to older ones where I have a larget time investment. After I go through a story that might be slightly different.. I've already read this book and am looking for another one. (next game.. next book.. next movie) etc
The repeated design (core mechanics in a broader sense) just encourages people to move on.. which is why I can say TOR is a good game.. I'll play it for a month or two. Back in the day a good MMO was going to hold me for years...
I can relate to your post.
After 5 yrs of EQ, I have no wish to play a game exclusively long term. I can remember putting in mega hrs on the 2600 in the early 80s. I will still fire up a Missle Command or Asteroids, but to donate the hrs I did back then....forget about it.
These days I do go on kicks where I will play the same game for several months, but it is a given fact it is on borrowed time. My 50k gamerscore on 360 is testament to it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
True, but MMO mechanics are a worse than "good enough" for non MMO games. So I think relative to a single player experience, the gameplay suffers. Dragon Age: Origins, despite borrowing some Holy Trinity ideas (to my annoyance) has much stronger and more interesting mechanics than any Trinity-based MMO.
Granted this doesn't bother some people. I am just pointing out there's a difference between this and Bioware's usual fair.
It's not likely to bother BioWare gamers, because they are used to it from the company. It's not likely to bother WoW gamers, because most of it is pretty much straight out lifted from vanilla WoW. For the most part, the people who are going to be bothered by lack of mechanical "innovation" are probably people who just straight out already don't like BioWare's approach to game design, and weren't interested in this game in the first place.
^^ That to me is kind of the point. Outside of BioWare fans or Star Wars fans that maybe don't MMO much. Why do you think it wouldn't bother people who have seen "it" for the last 7 years or longer.
When you are in a saturated market and especially in a bad economy. Unless they think they are bringing new people into the market with their title... at some point the "same thing" is not going to appeal to people. That's just my opinion as a consumer I guess.
I think back in my gaming history to say the 80's and the wide diversity of games and even *I* played a larger variety of games. Now I hardly ever buy games or go back to older ones where I have a larget time investment. After I go through a story that might be slightly different.. I've already read this book and am looking for another one. (next game.. next book.. next movie) etc
The repeated design (core mechanics in a broader sense) just encourages people to move on.. which is why I can say TOR is a good game.. I'll play it for a month or two. Back in the day a good MMO was going to hold me for years...
I wouldn't say the MMO market is saturated, nor that the bad economy will hurt it much. First, the MMO market isn't that saturated, imho. Themeparks have WoW and then a bunch of inferior products that don't tap much of the market at all. Sandboxes have Eve, which doesn't tap much of a market (steep learning curve and other factors). Overall there's not much competition or vibrancy in the market at present, and I think it is quite open to attack from new competitors. Unfortunately all the new people lately have put out inferior products to what is already there. We see this vulnerability everytime a new MMO comes out. WoW takes a huge hit and then everyone comes back when it turns out the new game is unpolished crap -- if WoW was really strong, then it wouldn't be affected much by new games since players would stick with it. Secondly, entertainment is pretty resistant to bad economic times, just because people like their escapism.
While TOR isn't for me at all (I loathe the Holy Trinity and it's a horrible fit for Star Wars), and I think many of the mechanics in such MMOs (grind, skinner-box design, etc) are just bad ideas for gaming, I do think it will do well on the market.
True, but MMO mechanics are a worse than "good enough" for non MMO games. So I think relative to a single player experience, the gameplay suffers. Dragon Age: Origins, despite borrowing some Holy Trinity ideas (to my annoyance) has much stronger and more interesting mechanics than any Trinity-based MMO.
Granted this doesn't bother some people. I am just pointing out there's a difference between this and Bioware's usual fair.
It's not likely to bother BioWare gamers, because they are used to it from the company. It's not likely to bother WoW gamers, because most of it is pretty much straight out lifted from vanilla WoW. For the most part, the people who are going to be bothered by lack of mechanical "innovation" are probably people who just straight out already don't like BioWare's approach to game design, and weren't interested in this game in the first place.
^^ That to me is kind of the point. Outside of BioWare fans or Star Wars fans that maybe don't MMO much. Why do you think it wouldn't bother people who have seen "it" for the last 7 years or longer.
When you are in a saturated market and especially in a bad economy. Unless they think they are bringing new people into the market with their title... at some point the "same thing" is not going to appeal to people. That's just my opinion as a consumer I guess.
I think back in my gaming history to say the 80's and the wide diversity of games and even *I* played a larger variety of games. Now I hardly ever buy games or go back to older ones where I have a larget time investment. After I go through a story that might be slightly different.. I've already read this book and am looking for another one. (next game.. next book.. next movie) etc
The repeated design (core mechanics in a broader sense) just encourages people to move on.. which is why I can say TOR is a good game.. I'll play it for a month or two. Back in the day a good MMO was going to hold me for years...
I can relate to your post.
After 5 yrs of EQ, I have no wish to play a game exclusively long term. I can remember putting in mega hrs on the 2600 in the early 80s. I will still fire up a Missle Command or Asteroids, but to donate the hrs I did back then....forget about it.
These days I do go on kicks where I will play the same game for several months, but it is a given fact it is on borrowed time. My 50k gamerscore on 360 is testament to it.
Ever think about it's that much more games being developed, that much more consoles people can have, and that more people playing video games?
Your talking about 5yrs of EQ on a PC that was consider one of the first of it's kind. Where there that many people playing EQ compared to the number of MMO players now?
As far as the MMO elements being a step back, I disagree with that too. There are a few areas I would like to see revamped and improved, to be sure, but having played MMOs of all types for over a decade, particularly themepark games, I can say unequivocally for me, at least, this game has lived up to my expectations of a very, very good MMO. I also acknowledge there are some fixes I'd like to see before I label it as "great." I'd still give it a solid 8/10.
just curious what elements you find new or a step forward in the themepark sense? My last MMO was rift and everything in that game in this respect felt more polished. From the ability to change roles on the fly(as long as outside combat), to the UI options, to the way lfg works, from the cross server dungeon finder, or cross server warfront que, I could go on and on. Just curious what you found in this game that is a step up in that regard.
I played Rift for about 3 months myself. It was more polished as in "bug free," but as far as innovation, TOR has it beat by a country mile. The only true innovation Rift had was the actual Rifts, which grew tiresome after about 20 levels, and the way they utilized their servers to handle the loads of having so many players in a condensed area. I liked their soul system, but I didn't find it the least big innovative. It was basically a standard talent tree system except they let you run wild with it to the point that you never had to make any truly important decisions regarding your character progression. You could basically play any spec you want at any time and never had to truly plan out your class. As a result, you got a lot of people that could do anything, but many of them couldn't do any of it well because they never grew into their class/spec. They just simply played them all. And oddly enough, there were just as many cookie-cutter specs for endgame in the Soul System as there were for any other talent tree system, so nothing was improved in that respect. And don't even get me started on the balance issues due to so much freedom. PvP was a trainwreck because of it.
But to answer your question, here are the the improvments in the genre I see from TOR, and understand, these are just my opinions:
1) Story---For the first time in a long time, quests actually have MEANING in a game. There is a backstory. It's still your typical quest/level grind, but TOR has managed to create the illusion that it's actually meaningful and important. This is an undeniable step up from what we've seen in the past with themepark questing.
2) Choices---Again, these choices aren't far-reaching or all-encompassing. Due to the nature of the storyline, they don't change the world forever. But what they do is bring back the RPG element in mmorpgs. People can debate all day long how important this element is in the overall game, but what can't be debated is that it, like the story, brings a "fun factor" and a sense of immersion to the typical quest grind. It was the first time I've ever played an MMO where I wasn't focused on watching my xp bar move. I was focused on how the story would turn out, and on the decisions I would make to give a layer of depth to my character.
3) Companions---Basically a pet system on steroids. There are people that don't like the companion system, but most do. No game has ever given the kind of customization to a "pet class" that TOR does with companions. The companions actually have their own story, their own questline, their own personal relationship with the player that can be altered by the choices they make, and the ability to micromanage every aspect of the companion gameplay from choosing their talents to gearing them up and changing their appearance. This is a very deep feature to the game that I don't think gets enough credit.
4) Crafting---Not innovative for MMOs in general, but definitely a new, improved spin on the standard themepark version of crafting. From having your companions crafting for you, to sending them on missions to acquire rare mats, to reverse engineering to acquire rare schematics, this is a very deep crafting system and a definite improvement over what is out there.
Those are the four major improvements I'd pick off the top of my head. I could list a bunch more minor tweaks to the prevailing thempark system that are a nice touch as well. I could also provide a list of things I think the game falls short in, but overall, it brings more to the MMO table than it doesn't bring.
Comments
i am not sure on others complaints (i liked the scenary and the worlds in general) but i see the lifeless part as random npcs just in looped animation - 2 guards checking some peasant with the same loop over and over does not make it feel very alive (even moreso when you have to save random person from a bunch of baddies and the local guards are just standing there looping their animations 2 yards from you - cannot elaborate since spoilers are not fun :P)
Is this not EA(bioware) with LUCAS? i am sure things might have turned out different if it were just BIOWARE
also watch the rift video I added in that post but like Vhaln said its hard to describe but pretty much a mixture of all that in essense makes you immerse yourself more with the game allowing the story to draw you in. Right now its mostly get back to the npcs as fast as possible to see what happens next in the quest chain cause inbetween there isn't much going on.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Thats not the issue with Character customization he's talking about.
Every race has the same facial options/body type and even many of the same hair styles in TOR. They basically took 1 character model, changed the skin color, and for each race added a frill (for example the Cyborg's gadgets).
In WoW, you cant customize your individual character as much, however there is a distinct difference in looks and movements between all 12 of their races.
I mean, did you even look at the article "5 things NOT to like about SW:TOR" on this site?
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/5854/Five-Not-So-Great-Things-About-SWTOR.html
#2 - Character Customization. Look at the picture in the article, and tell me that its not an issue.
As for the techinical issues, just because YOUR experience didn't include them doesn't mean that he was the only one. I had many of the same issues he did, and for a game thats being released in 17 days (just over 2 weeks), it has A LOT of issues. Everyone on this forum keeps using the excuse "It's in beta" which it is, but you seem to forget just how close release actually is.
My opinion: Wait 3-6 months before playing, because hopefully they'll fix all the bugs they skipped to rush the game to a December 20th release.
^^ That to me is kind of the point. Outside of BioWare fans or Star Wars fans that maybe don't MMO much. Why do you think it wouldn't bother people who have seen "it" for the last 7 years or longer.
When you are in a saturated market and especially in a bad economy. Unless they think they are bringing new people into the market with their title... at some point the "same thing" is not going to appeal to people. That's just my opinion as a consumer I guess.
I think back in my gaming history to say the 80's and the wide diversity of games and even *I* played a larger variety of games. Now I hardly ever buy games or go back to older ones where I have a larget time investment. After I go through a story that might be slightly different.. I've already read this book and am looking for another one. (next game.. next book.. next movie) etc
The repeated design (core mechanics in a broader sense) just encourages people to move on.. which is why I can say TOR is a good game.. I'll play it for a month or two. Back in the day a good MMO was going to hold me for years...
+1 and QFT.
SWTOR is a step down in terms of RPG/storytelling and gameplay compared to Dragon Age 1 and Mass Effect1/2 ( i didn't play DA2 so can't comment.
This always happens when you go from single player to multiplayer unless. . . . unless the MMO developer adds quality multiplayer gameplay features that improve the game.
Bioware has not added anything multiplayer that "improves the experience" so what you get is a watered down Bioware game, in the star wars universe with decade old MMO gameplay..
joy !
You see there is a difference in taking <insert Lore here> to an MMO experience to capitalize on a different and more profitable business model than actually leveraging the hell out of the fact that you will have a massive amount of people on at one time and wrapping your design around that.
Bioware/EA did the former.
It is hard to describe, and I feel I did miss the mark. I wanted to just say look up videos for these different games, and if you can't see the issue, than I guess you can't see issue.. Seems like a cop-out, but I know its not the sort of thing everyone will notice. I think a lot of people do subconscously, and it effects overall impressions, so its more important than it may seem, though.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Was really excited about this game for a long time, then I played the beta. It does have a lot of nice features, but nothing is really giving me that staying power that say WoW had at release, then again it's just my personal opinion. Not going to bash on the game or anything but definately won't be playing this one. And yes I have been playing in the beta since the first few invites months ago, tried and tried and even ran with guildies, just not keeping me interested, but I mostly play games for the pvp and I found Tor's a bit dull. Although, if I hadn't played the beta I probably would had bought it to try it out. Guess it's their loss.
it has a HUGE impression for me and honestly makes the game feel like they didn't even try to make the world a living breathing entity for all the reasons already described. In a story based game I find this pretty unacceptable and considering the budget and time spent making the game its a huge letdown since I'm such a big fan of star wars and bioware games in general.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
You have a point in that yes comparatively speaking it could be viewed as a bit watered down. That's comparing it to SPRPGs, as we've all seen them and played them, and know what to expect from them.
My exception here is the fact we're talking about applying this to a genre where it hasn't been applied at this level before. They have one semi-decent precursor to follow, which would be AOC. Which really had none, considering this it's not suprising that mistakes may have been made by both developers.
IMO this should be expected when applying something semi-new to an already established genre. It's essentially trying to marry two designs that have distinct differences. The risk of alienating fans of both respective genres is pretty high, much higher than the chances of actually pleasing the two IMO. Considering that it's no surprise feedback thus far has been a mixed bag.
When you're essentially designing two games in one, there's going to be oversight, areas where fans of one genre or the other feel are lacking, etc.. I'm not sure that can be avoided on a realistic budget and development schedule.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My big issue is yes they tried mashing two old ideas and tried ot make something new. Thing is each idea is old and has been around for a long time. Bioware has been making choice based games for awhile now and the MMO mechanics it took from the other themepark MMOs have been around forever. Im sure putting them together is a challenge but when you are using already set mechanics to leave so much out really puts a question as to what they have been working on all these years. Missing a lot of basic stuff from the MMO side of the house just makes me think they do not have a good plan for the longevity of this game.. maybe i'm wrong and in 6 months they release a huge expansion.. who knows but I think by now and with how many big releases have we seen in the last 10 years in the MMO field? people expect a little more of a AAA title. Maybe I'm being selfish in thinking that way but well see how the masses respond in a few weeks.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
The longevity part is a question of mine as well, all I'm seeing is PVP for me, and that all depends on my guild sticking around.
I just hope others learn from any mistakes made and continue the trend FC started, by merging these two genres there could be something great as a result for the MMORPG genre as a whole. I don't feel that will be TOR, but in the future anything is possible.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not sure I agree with you. First of all, the MMO ideas they are using, while older, are certainly not outdated. In fact, they are the ideas that many of today's successful MMOs use. As far as choice-based games being old...since when is having an actual story and choices an old thing? And are there any current MMOs that have this as part of their game? No, there aren't. So, although Bioware has been doing it for a while, this has NEVER been done to this extent in an MMO. So it's what I would call innovative.
I was fortunate enough to test this game, and I can honestly say that it has everything I would want from a AAA title, not less. There is some stuff missing, but none of it game-breaking, and most of it I would expect to be in the game fairly soon. And it will be releasing with more content than just about any other AAA themepark game out there.
They don't need a big expansion after 6 months to make this game better. They just need to pump out updates at a good pace and this game will be a terrific game for the still very large themepark crowd.
As for my personal wishlist of things I'd like to see implemented as soon as possible:
1) UI cusomization. I like the clean, minimalist look of the UI. Not a lot of clutter. However, we need to be able to resized and move things. This is one area that baffles me as far as why they didn't put it in game.
2) Allowing 3rd party mods. This isn't mandatory for me if they make the UI more flexible and add some mouseover options for healers. But it would definitely be a nice addition to this game.
3) Ship interior customization. They've got the shell of what can be a very effective housing system. Now they just need to expand on that and allow us some freedom in customizing our ships.
4) Free form space exploration. I think this one is going to take awhile. My guess is we won't see it until an expansion or major update, unfortunately.
5) More zones during the levelling process. This game has pretty good replay value due to the class stories, but I really think they can provide so much more by adding in more planets during the levelling that overlap. Giving players different choices on where to quest depending on level would be a great feature. I really don't want them to do what Rift did and concentrate ALL their updates on endgame play.
choice based gaming has been around for ever maybe not in the MMO world but the way it flows is the exact same as all the other bioware games for the most part. All I was trying to point out they took two pre-existing ideas mashed them together yet didn't improve either of them. They are banking on the lore and the big name to be successful and its going to work at least for 3-6 months. But at 6 months if enough isn't added this game will not be the hit it could be(in my opinion). i tested the game as well and honestly didn't find a single thing during my play time that felt new or innovative. It's not bad by any means and i love star wars but to keep it going over years there just isn't enough ground work and I really think the shelf life will run short.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Not sure how you can say they took two pre-existing ideas and didn't improve upon them. In my experience in beta, they absolutely DID improve upon both of them. That's my opinion, of course. And no other MMO has had choice-based quests to the extent that TOR has. That's not opinion, that's a fact. Would I prefer more choices? Sure I would. But adding this feature in alone is a definite upgrade to what has come before. You're making the mistake of considering what single player RPGS have had and comparing it an MMO. This feature doesn't exist in current MMOs, therefore, it is better than what is out there...for MMOS. If a company made an MMO with twitch-based combat that involves aiming, people wouldn't say, "Oh well, that's already been done in many fps games." They'd say it was innovative for an MMO.
And I'll also agree to disagree with you on the comment about not enough groundwork being laid for future retention. This game is releasing with more features than most other themepark MMOs have after a year or two of being live.
ok ill ellaborate a little. The dialog choice quest system is the same bioware has been using in all there single player games like kotor and mass effect and dragon age. In a MMO it's less effective because you can't have your choices effect the entire world liek you can in a single player game. They also took a step even further back by not really making your choices matter much aside from the light/dark points. If I decide to kill someone in kotor that person is dead from the world you cannot do this in an MMO obviously or no one else could do the quest. Also for example in dragon age you can choose to save an entire town or let it turn into wasteland these sort of things don't happen in this game cause of the MMO limitations. I could go on all day about the MMO elements and how they are a step back in many ways but there have been so many threads on this already I won't just paste them again.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Choice based questing isn't really an mmo improvement, it's just the Fluff Bioware wanted to put into the game, its importance can be catorgorized with the importance of new mounts or unique lightsaber crystal colors. Their nice to have around but primarily just fluff in the end. The Fluff should merely accentuate the living world created for the players to be in, however the opposite appears true with TOR on many levels. Most of the new "features" TOR enthusiasts speak of are for the most part Fluff like VO an whatnot. Nothing important is a huge divergence from standard whack a mole, holy trinity themeparks.
I'm not arguing that having choices in MMOs isn't quite as free as having them in SPRPGs. Based on the limitations of an MMO being an MMO, there is no doubt that the choices aren't as free or the consequences of those choices aren't as far-reaching as we see in single player RPGs, but to have SOME choice in an MMO does make a big difference. It makes a big difference in how quests are presented, and it makes a big difference in making you feel that you have some control over your character. Light side/ Dark side choices aren't going to affect your overall story to the point of changing entire questlines for you, but they do add an RPG element to your character that other MMOs do not do. This is undeniable.
Again, you are blaming Bioware for poor implementation when it is simply the genre itself that prohibits complete freedom. The freedom you get to slightly alter your story, or slightly alter your quests, or role play an actual alignment based on your actions cannot be brushed aside so easily. Only the harshest of critics or the most jaded of themeparkers could imply that this is in any way a step back for an MMO.
As far as the MMO elements being a step back, I disagree with that too. There are a few areas I would like to see revamped and improved, to be sure, but having played MMOs of all types for over a decade, particularly themepark games, I can say unequivocally for me, at least, this game has lived up to my expectations of a very, very good MMO. I also acknowledge there are some fixes I'd like to see before I label it as "great." I'd still give it a solid 8/10.
I think the vast majority of people would disagree with you about choice-based questing not being an MMO improvement. It is certainly an improvement to the genre. Whether it's "fluff" or not is up for debate, and I can see both sides of that argument, but not an improvement? I definitely disagree with that wholheartedly.
Its a bit simplistic of a summation of thought, but overall, I basically agree with you. People who are themepark inclined will more than likely enjoy it much better than the sandbox inclined.
In addition, reading all of these (about 1 million at last count... you can count 'em, i'm not lying) I think that the game won't be breaking too many MMO established norms, but may improve on some of them.
It will bring some relatively new things into the genre which I haven't really seen. The heavy story acting, paths.. as well as the crafting system which seems fairly unique. (At this point I duck, because I will quickly be pointed to games that have these) However, they don't seem widespread so, its kinda new to be at the forefront (IMO)
In summation, I think its gonna be a fun romp for most casual games. Those sandbox types (myself included) will never be happy with anything you put before us, so just ignore the crowd. Even though I'm a sandboxer, I'm looking forward to it.
I self identify as a monkey.
just curious what elements you find new or a step forward in the themepark sense? My last MMO was rift and everything in that game in this respect felt more polished. From the ability to change roles on the fly(as long as outside combat), to the UI options, to the way lfg works, from the cross server dungeon finder, or cross server warfront que, I could go on and on. Just curious what you found in this game that is a step up in that regard.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I can relate to your post.
After 5 yrs of EQ, I have no wish to play a game exclusively long term. I can remember putting in mega hrs on the 2600 in the early 80s. I will still fire up a Missle Command or Asteroids, but to donate the hrs I did back then....forget about it.
These days I do go on kicks where I will play the same game for several months, but it is a given fact it is on borrowed time. My 50k gamerscore on 360 is testament to it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I wouldn't say the MMO market is saturated, nor that the bad economy will hurt it much. First, the MMO market isn't that saturated, imho. Themeparks have WoW and then a bunch of inferior products that don't tap much of the market at all. Sandboxes have Eve, which doesn't tap much of a market (steep learning curve and other factors). Overall there's not much competition or vibrancy in the market at present, and I think it is quite open to attack from new competitors. Unfortunately all the new people lately have put out inferior products to what is already there. We see this vulnerability everytime a new MMO comes out. WoW takes a huge hit and then everyone comes back when it turns out the new game is unpolished crap -- if WoW was really strong, then it wouldn't be affected much by new games since players would stick with it. Secondly, entertainment is pretty resistant to bad economic times, just because people like their escapism.
While TOR isn't for me at all (I loathe the Holy Trinity and it's a horrible fit for Star Wars), and I think many of the mechanics in such MMOs (grind, skinner-box design, etc) are just bad ideas for gaming, I do think it will do well on the market.
Ever think about it's that much more games being developed, that much more consoles people can have, and that more people playing video games?
Your talking about 5yrs of EQ on a PC that was consider one of the first of it's kind. Where there that many people playing EQ compared to the number of MMO players now?
I played Rift for about 3 months myself. It was more polished as in "bug free," but as far as innovation, TOR has it beat by a country mile. The only true innovation Rift had was the actual Rifts, which grew tiresome after about 20 levels, and the way they utilized their servers to handle the loads of having so many players in a condensed area. I liked their soul system, but I didn't find it the least big innovative. It was basically a standard talent tree system except they let you run wild with it to the point that you never had to make any truly important decisions regarding your character progression. You could basically play any spec you want at any time and never had to truly plan out your class. As a result, you got a lot of people that could do anything, but many of them couldn't do any of it well because they never grew into their class/spec. They just simply played them all. And oddly enough, there were just as many cookie-cutter specs for endgame in the Soul System as there were for any other talent tree system, so nothing was improved in that respect. And don't even get me started on the balance issues due to so much freedom. PvP was a trainwreck because of it.
But to answer your question, here are the the improvments in the genre I see from TOR, and understand, these are just my opinions:
1) Story---For the first time in a long time, quests actually have MEANING in a game. There is a backstory. It's still your typical quest/level grind, but TOR has managed to create the illusion that it's actually meaningful and important. This is an undeniable step up from what we've seen in the past with themepark questing.
2) Choices---Again, these choices aren't far-reaching or all-encompassing. Due to the nature of the storyline, they don't change the world forever. But what they do is bring back the RPG element in mmorpgs. People can debate all day long how important this element is in the overall game, but what can't be debated is that it, like the story, brings a "fun factor" and a sense of immersion to the typical quest grind. It was the first time I've ever played an MMO where I wasn't focused on watching my xp bar move. I was focused on how the story would turn out, and on the decisions I would make to give a layer of depth to my character.
3) Companions---Basically a pet system on steroids. There are people that don't like the companion system, but most do. No game has ever given the kind of customization to a "pet class" that TOR does with companions. The companions actually have their own story, their own questline, their own personal relationship with the player that can be altered by the choices they make, and the ability to micromanage every aspect of the companion gameplay from choosing their talents to gearing them up and changing their appearance. This is a very deep feature to the game that I don't think gets enough credit.
4) Crafting---Not innovative for MMOs in general, but definitely a new, improved spin on the standard themepark version of crafting. From having your companions crafting for you, to sending them on missions to acquire rare mats, to reverse engineering to acquire rare schematics, this is a very deep crafting system and a definite improvement over what is out there.
Those are the four major improvements I'd pick off the top of my head. I could list a bunch more minor tweaks to the prevailing thempark system that are a nice touch as well. I could also provide a list of things I think the game falls short in, but overall, it brings more to the MMO table than it doesn't bring.