As cool as the VO content seems today, I'm very curious to see how that holds up. After leveing a couple toons during beta, I found that on the second beta weekend I was already starting to grow tired of the VO side quests.
That's what most of us that already played the game more than a weekend at a time have been trying to say....but we get shouted down all the time by the loud mouthed minority that won't tolerate any criticism off the game.
I look forward to seeing their posts this time next year when the game is all but forgotten, dead and buried while everyone raves about the next big game,,,,,,
I think it is telling that BW introduced the 'Skip Space Bar' option so early into the development of the game.
Basically, it appears that BW recognised what you both describe here, and put in the skip option -- rather than pretend that their story is so amazing that no one in their proper mind would ever wish to skip it.
The question I have is then, where is the content they are considering will be the 'hook' if it is not Story. Basically looking for more details about end game, world PvP and what not, and how it will be successful versions, rather than those failed versions of other mmos.
That's one way of looking at it, and tbh I'm not surprised that TOR critics or opponents come to that conclusion, it has a part wishful thinking in it
Another imo more logical and sensible reason is that yes, the story part is great, but they want players to give the choice to skip past it for those that want to, so that players with different tastes are catered to: 80% may want to follow the story and enjoys it immensely above the stale textbased questing that TOR critics seem to hold on a pedestal, yet in this way the 20% players that doesn't care for story immersive questing still can have the option to skip it where wanted.
With as a result that both groups of players are happy: those that like story in their questing are able to enjoy it, those that don't are able to skip ahead.
Seems smart enough to me to implement such option.
Originally posted by Vhaln
You really don't seem to know what you're talking about - were you even playing MMOs when SWG was released? Over a year before WoW? The market was different then, much smaller, before Blizzard came along to crack it wide open. SWG was actually successful by pre-WoW standards. I'd bet in the current market, a modern version of it would do just as well as TOR, if not better. It had more to offer different types of players, whereas TOR is a lot more singular in focus.
I know TOR was never going to be SWG2, but I don't know why people have to keep knocking SWG, when they really know next to nothing about it. Not even whether it had been a success or not, before the NGE came along and made it until a completely different game.
It was moderately successful, although maybe less considering the huge IP they had.
That changed however when it started bleeding large numbers of players when EQ2 and WoW arrived on the scene. The steep decline got only more emphasised and sped up when CU and NGE followed it up afterwards, but make no mistake, the NGE was an attempt to turn the decline that was happening even before any NGE. In fact, you might say that without an EQ2 and more so a WoW, there probably wouldn't have been an NGE, certainly not in that format.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
So a broken, unbalanced, and bug ridden game that when thru a couple of combat changes, that drove off the majority of the population is better than a fully functioning game that is completely polished and lacking bugs. Dude I want some of want you are smoking, than again maybe not. Anyone that runs to each and every TOR thread just to bash it for no apparent reason needs some serious help. It's obvious you do not like the game, so why not just follow something you like. Or is that to hard of a concept for you
You really don't seem to know what you're talking about - were you even playing MMOs when SWG was released? Over a year before WoW? The market was different then, much smaller, before Blizzard came along to crack it wide open. SWG was actually successful by pre-WoW standards. I'd bet in the current market, a modern version of it would do just as well as TOR, if not better. It had more to offer different types of players, whereas TOR is a lot more singular in focus.
I know TOR was never going to be SWG2, but I don't know why people have to keep knocking SWG, when they really know next to nothing about it. Not even whether it had been a success or not, before the NGE came along and made it until a completely different game.
It had issues, but they really weren't as gamebreaking as people make them out to be. At least not until SOE completely failed to address them, ever, and eventually killed the game. It sounds crazy, and nothing else like it has happened to any other MMO, but that's why people are still bitter about it years later.
Actually, it is the other way around. people keep knocking SWTOR because it is not SWG.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Actually, it is the other way around. people keep knocking SWTOR because it is not SWG.
Admittedly, it's both - but at least ex-SWG fans who knock TOR know at least a little about what TOR is, and that's why they're knocking it. It's not their kind of game, no other MMO is, and that's frustrating. People knocking SWG, for the most part, don't know anything about the game at all.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
It was moderately successful, although maybe less considering the huge IP they had.
That changed however when it started bleeding large numbers of players when EQ2 and WoW arrived on the scene. The steep decline got only more emphasised and sped up when CU and NGE followed it up afterwards, but make no mistake, the NGE was an attempt to turn the decline that was happening even before any NGE. In fact, you might say that without an EQ2 and more so a WoW, there probably wouldn't have been an NGE, certainly not in that format.
I think one could also say that maybe if they'd addressed the game's issues, while still being true to the kind of game it was, they'd have been a lot more successful in stopping the bleeding. Or at least slowing it. Players would come and go, but they were on a slippery slope. It was an aging MMO afterall.. but if it'd aged gracefully, it might never have fallen as far as it has. Maybe even still chugging along to this day, much more successfully than it was, as the only real sandbox MMO other than EVE.
..and ex players wouldn't be here pestering TOR fans. Well, at least not quite as much :P
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
He is not saying it is but rather that SWG was better than SW:TOR will be. I agree.
For some, it was. For a whole lot of others, it isn't.
Exactly, I tried SWG and didnt like it much at all. I tried it pre-nge and briefly after. However, after trying TOR I cant wait to get to play it.
Just like sandbox games in general, not everyone thinks it's better than themepark. Perhaps that's one reason why there's less sandbox games and why most of them have only a handful of players in them, even the people who rage how they want a sandbox game does not seem to play one.
I think TOR has bigger potential also to lure old customers back when there's some really cool new big storyline(s) added or inc, opposed to some other games where there are nothing else but new-old dungeons and a handful of wall o' texts.
I tried SWG because it was a gift, pre-nge. And I hated the game. It made no sense to me and I couldn't play more than a few days. Most sandbox games are just not for me. Although I did enjoy Darkfall for a month. The FPS type combat was fun for awhile, I just am not into having to macro to win.
I loved all three weekend beta tests of TOR. I never skipped any VO and loved the stories. Even though I repeated a lot of content. It always felt different with a different class. They addressed you very different if you were Sith vs say a IA. Or a Jedi vs a Smuggler. So I will be one of many that will love the VO and stories in TOR and won't be skipping much. Can't say never, because I may run some flashpoints with guildies or PUGs and will skip if they want just for group reasons.
So I also liked the quote from the OP. I look forward to seeing more and more content over the next couple of years.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
So a broken, unbalanced, and bug ridden game that when thru a couple of combat changes, that drove off the majority of the population is better than a fully functioning game that is completely polished and lacking bugs. Dude I want some of want you are smoking, than again maybe not. Anyone that runs to each and every TOR thread just to bash it for no apparent reason needs some serious help. It's obvious you do not like the game, so why not just follow something you like. Or is that to hard of a concept for you
You really don't seem to know what you're talking about - were you even playing MMOs when SWG was released? Over a year before WoW? The market was different then, much smaller, before Blizzard came along to crack it wide open. SWG was actually successful by pre-WoW standards. I'd bet in the current market, a modern version of it would do just as well as TOR, if not better. It had more to offer different types of players, whereas TOR is a lot more singular in focus.
I know TOR was never going to be SWG2, but I don't know why people have to keep knocking SWG, when they really know next to nothing about it. Not even whether it had been a success or not, before the NGE came along and made it until a completely different game.
It had issues, but they really weren't as gamebreaking as people make them out to be. At least not until SOE completely failed to address them, ever, and eventually killed the game. It sounds crazy, and nothing else like it has happened to any other MMO, but that's why people are still bitter about it years later.
As a matter of fact I was playing Asheron's Call before WoW and SWG came along I also played Earth & Beyond for the brief time that it was out, and nether of those games where as broken as SWG. You need any more MMO credentials from me?
I think it is telling that BW introduced the 'Skip Space Bar' option so early into the development of the game.
Basically, it appears that BW recognised what you both describe here, and put in the skip option -- rather than pretend that their story is so amazing that no one in their proper mind would ever wish to skip it.
The question I have is then, where is the content they are considering will be the 'hook' if it is not Story. Basically looking for more details about end game, world PvP and what not, and how it will be successful versions, rather than those failed versions of other mmos.
The only thing "telling" about that is that Bioware recognized that not everyone who plays TOR will want to sit through every side quest VO, and are making a game that can cater to the powergamer as well as people that like the stories. I think it would be more of a bad omen if they never added that space bar in, because it would mean that they are forcing players to sit through the VO because the rest of the game doesn't have the content to sustain it. Obviously, that's not the case. Bioware is saying, "Hey, we've got everything that every other MMO has as far as content, and more in many cases. So if you want to skip the story, you can. " But of course that's not good enough for some people.
As for your question about the details of what other content they have, and what makes this game stand out from other themepark MMOs, I gave YOU a very specific list of 10 things that make TOR stand out from most other MMOs. A very long, specific list of features that make this game solid. And I did it because you asked for it on one of the threads yesterday. And, of course, you either didn't bother to read it or you are just ignoring it because it doesn't fit in with your definition of what constitutes a good game. But I'm not making you another list. If you want to know what this game does that sets it apart....go find the other thread yourself.
You really don't seem to know what you're talking about - were you even playing MMOs when SWG was released? Over a year before WoW? The market was different then, much smaller, before Blizzard came along to crack it wide open. SWG was actually successful by pre-WoW standards. I'd bet in the current market, a modern version of it would do just as well as TOR, if not better. It had more to offer different types of players, whereas TOR is a lot more singular in focus.
I know TOR was never going to be SWG2, but I don't know why people have to keep knocking SWG, when they really know next to nothing about it. Not even whether it had been a success or not, before the NGE came along and made it until a completely different game.
It had issues, but they really weren't as gamebreaking as people make them out to be. At least not until SOE completely failed to address them, ever, and eventually killed the game. It sounds crazy, and nothing else like it has happened to any other MMO, but that's why people are still bitter about it years later.
As a matter of fact I was playing Asheron's Call before WoW and SWG came along I also played Earth & Beyond for the brief time that it was out, and nether of those games where as broken as SWG. You need any more MMO credentials from me?
I didn't mean for it to be about credentials, I apologize if it came off that way. Just confused as to why you're knocking a game you seem to know nothing about.. It had issues, but so do most MMOs. I don't get why you'd think it was so broken. Unless you were one of the players that really wanted to be a Jedi, and yeah, they fumbled that part pretty badly.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I think the timeless problem with MMO's that are made through this theme park type formula is that developers will never be able to create and launch content at a speed faster than players can consume it. It's not a knock at this game specifically, it's just the reality. If subscribers get through the content and constantly find themselves waiting for the next content to come out, there is a high likelyhood people will get bored and lose interest. I'm not sure I believe that somehow "this game will be different" in this regard because it has never been the case with any game to date using this formula.
That's because SW:TOR is pure combat / story focused.
Next to some crappy PVP and lazy crafting, there is nothing else to do in SW:TOR!
So when people consumed the storydriven PVE content, the only thing left will be the same ol' same ol' gear/Raiding threadmill.
SWG (pre-NGE) was great and loved by many, because of all the non-combat / social elements it had!
Player cities, deep crafting, housing, collecting. It's what created those greatly missed server communities /sigh
And that is what I am afraid off with SW:TOR. All they probably will do (and this interview basically comfirms that fear) is just pushing more of the same PVE story stuff again and again (and knowing EA, it will probably be paid DLC as well).
Pay for it. You go through it, finish it... wait for the next... Pay for it. You go through it, finish it... rince and repeat.
MMO longetivity isn't created by keep pushing out the same ol' same ol' PVE content. As people will just consume it faster than they can make it.
The game needs a ton of Non-combat trivial stuff to entice people to socialize together, keep them busy with all kinds of other things, like housing, collecting, achievements, better customization, mini games, etc.
That's what will keep people hooked onto your game for a long long time. And not just pushing out same ol' same ol' recycled PVE stuff! As that is just going to bore people to tears sooner than later and will make them jump ship to the next big thing that comes along (TSW, GW2, ArchAge, etc)
Crappy PvP. Thats why swtor have a balanced pvp?, and im a warhammer veteran i know about unbalanced pvp. And yes, we want ghost towns all over the maps, like in swg. You need to undestand this: swtor is not SWG II, and it wont be. More Social stuff?, lol. Men, you have no idea about what are you talking about, im not a wower, i dont even like the game, but they did the same thing over the last years, ¨add new content¨, and guess what, WoW still have millions playing the game.
You all took my post way out of context! /FACEPALM!
I am not looking for SWG2. I was merely mentioning it as example of elements that created longetivity and hook people to the game.
I fear for SW:TOR in it's current state that it just does not have much longetivity.
Over 85% of the content is overlapping across all classes. And besides combat and lazy crafting SW:TOR just doesn't offer anything.
So when people are done playing through one character and it's storyline, they are pretty much done.
Sure you can reroll another class, but besided it's unique story quest you are faced with doing tons of the same content all over again.
So you can bet a lot of people will already end up being bored running a second character, yet alone a third one.
For me, I am good side and always will be. I hate rolling dark side characters, as it's just not my taste. So I am stuck to the Republic side.
SW:TOR needs non-combat elements and quickly. Be it in form of mini games, housing, better more engaging crafting, more and better customization, achievements, collections, whatever.... it needs it badly!
Just running missions and flashing your light saber over and over again, day after day, with nothing else to do, will get tiresome eventually.
As for your question about the details of what other content they have, and what makes this game stand out from other themepark MMOs, I gave YOU a very specific list of 10 things that make TOR stand out from most other MMOs. A very long, specific list of features that make this game solid. And I did it because you asked for it on one of the threads yesterday. And, of course, you either didn't bother to read it or you are just ignoring it because it doesn't fit in with your definition of what constitutes a good game. But I'm not making you another list. If you want to know what this game does that sets it apart....go find the other thread yourself.
You gave a rather opinionated list, rather than one that that makes TOR stand out above other MMOs. As you pointed out, it doesn't fit into what I consider to be a good game for the most part -- or more accurately what I would consider something 'different' and 'more engaging' than other MMO's.
It is easy to say a game is 'great' and 'fun', without having to meet another persons' criteria for those terms. I can say that the game is 'poor' and 'unfun', but that doesn't mean that everyone will have that same opinion. This is why I am looking for less 'opinion' based comments, and more unbaised details about the game.
So again, once the story is old (ie people begin using the space bar through it), what elements are left that are superior (and how are they superior) to other MMO's?
You really don't seem to know what you're talking about - were you even playing MMOs when SWG was released? Over a year before WoW? The market was different then, much smaller, before Blizzard came along to crack it wide open. SWG was actually successful by pre-WoW standards. I'd bet in the current market, a modern version of it would do just as well as TOR, if not better. It had more to offer different types of players, whereas TOR is a lot more singular in focus.
I know TOR was never going to be SWG2, but I don't know why people have to keep knocking SWG, when they really know next to nothing about it. Not even whether it had been a success or not, before the NGE came along and made it until a completely different game.
It had issues, but they really weren't as gamebreaking as people make them out to be. At least not until SOE completely failed to address them, ever, and eventually killed the game. It sounds crazy, and nothing else like it has happened to any other MMO, but that's why people are still bitter about it years later.
As a matter of fact I was playing Asheron's Call before WoW and SWG came along I also played Earth & Beyond for the brief time that it was out, and nether of those games where as broken as SWG. You need any more MMO credentials from me?
I didn't mean for it to be about credentials, I apologize if it came off that way. Just confused as to why you're knocking a game you seem to know nothing about.. It had issues, but so do most MMOs. I don't get why you'd think it was so broken. Unless you were one of the players that really wanted to be a Jedi, and yeah, they fumbled that part pretty badly.
I gave the game a try it wasn't my type of game so I left at that, than again I not a big SW fan so it didn't pull me in like it pulled in others. As far as sandboxes go I don't think anything is every going to compare to AC, and after playing themeparks for so long I couldn't bring myself to pickup another sandbox game. As far as TOR goes I loved KoTOR 1 and 2 and that made me actually dig a bit into the old republic era. I was hoping for a KoTOR 3 but i am more than happy with TOR.
I can understand peoples anger over what happened with SWG, but to blame BW and hate TOR for it is just plain wrong. When the blame lays with SOE, the first poster that I responsed to just hate on the game for the sake of hating. The guy runs to every TOR thread spitting out hate a venom.
I have nothing against SWG, it's that just people that hate and blame BW/EA because of what happend to SWG. It was known it 08 that BW wasn't making a SWG2, but some people seem to think that, that is what BW owes them, because they decided to make a star wars title. Failing to realize that they are making a title based on one of their own games.
As for your question about the details of what other content they have, and what makes this game stand out from other themepark MMOs, I gave YOU a very specific list of 10 things that make TOR stand out from most other MMOs. A very long, specific list of features that make this game solid. And I did it because you asked for it on one of the threads yesterday. And, of course, you either didn't bother to read it or you are just ignoring it because it doesn't fit in with your definition of what constitutes a good game. But I'm not making you another list. If you want to know what this game does that sets it apart....go find the other thread yourself.
You gave a rather opinionated list, rather than one that that makes TOR stand out above other MMOs. As you pointed out, it doesn't fit into what I consider to be a good game for the most part -- or more accurately what I would consider something 'different' and 'more engaging' than other MMO's.
It is easy to say a game is 'great' and 'fun', without having to meet another persons' criteria for those terms. I can say that the game is 'poor' and 'unfun', but that doesn't mean that everyone will have that same opinion. This is why I am looking for less 'opinion' based comments, and more unbaised details about the game.
So again, once the story is old (ie people begin using the space bar through it), what elements are left that are superior (and how are they superior) to other MMO's?
Any list made is going to be from that players perspective, as each person will have a different reason for sticking around. There is no universal gauge of what would be superior to everyone.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You all took my post way out of context! /FACEPALM!
I am not looking for SWG2. I was merely mentioning it as example of elements that created longetivity and hook people to the game.
I fear for SW:TOR in it's current state that it just does not have much longetivity.
Over 85% of the content is overlapping across all classes. And besides combat and lazy crafting SW:TOR just doesn't offer anything.
So when people are done playing through one character and it's storyline, they are pretty much done.
Sure you can reroll another class, but besided it's unique story quest you are faced with doing tons of the same content all over again.
So you can bet a lot of people will already end up being bored running a second character, yet alone a third one.
For me, I am good side and always will be. I hate rolling dark side characters, as it's just not my taste. So I am stuck to the Republic side.
SW:TOR needs non-combat elements and quickly. Be it in form of mini games, housing, better more engaging crafting, more and better customization, achievements, collections, whatever.... it needs it badly!
First of all, you are leaving out the part about each class being fun to play, and a different experience in itself. And I'm not talking about story, I'm talking about gameplay. So, story aside, there is replay value there. Story adds to that.
Second, I disagree about the "lazy crafting." That's just a silly statement. It is no more "lazy" than any other themepark MMO out there. In fact, it actually requires more micro-managing than all of them except EQ2 and Vanguard (if you consider that a themepark game). It's not nearly as immersive as those two games, nor the standard sandbox games like SWG. We all know that. But it's a much deeper system than any other current themepark game out there aside from the two I just mentioned. And as for lazy...literally the only difference between TOR's crafting and a game like WoW is that you don't have to go /afk while your character forges a piece of armor at an imaginary forge. You can actually be out adventuring while your crew does the crafting for you. But yoou still have to initiate the crafting by pressing a button, just like any other game. You just don't actually have to sit in one place and watch your character DO the crafting. Aside from that, there is absolutely no difference, other than the system being deeper than most games. Not to mention, the gear you make can actually be used as you are levelling. Never a bad thing.
Now, if you are comparing it to SWG's crafting or another sandbox game's crafing, then yes...it will fall short. No dispute there.
I'll also agree with you on one more point: There does need to be more mini-games, and there does need to be more alternate paths for levelling---some overlapping planets during the levelling process so people have a choice of where to go at any given level. For a game that is so driven by its story, this is one thing that is mandatory, IMO, and my biggest personal gripe about the game at this point. I don't want Bioware to make the mistake that Trion did and push out content that is strictly end game content post launch. That basically ruined Rift, and turned it into nothing more than an end-game lobby atmosphere. So hopefully, Bioware takes heed and understands that they'll need to fill out levelling content as well as end game content.
As for your question about the details of what other content they have, and what makes this game stand out from other themepark MMOs, I gave YOU a very specific list of 10 things that make TOR stand out from most other MMOs. A very long, specific list of features that make this game solid. And I did it because you asked for it on one of the threads yesterday. And, of course, you either didn't bother to read it or you are just ignoring it because it doesn't fit in with your definition of what constitutes a good game. But I'm not making you another list. If you want to know what this game does that sets it apart....go find the other thread yourself.
You gave a rather opinionated list, rather than one that that makes TOR stand out above other MMOs. As you pointed out, it doesn't fit into what I consider to be a good game for the most part -- or more accurately what I would consider something 'different' and 'more engaging' than other MMO's.
It is easy to say a game is 'great' and 'fun', without having to meet another persons' criteria for those terms. I can say that the game is 'poor' and 'unfun', but that doesn't mean that everyone will have that same opinion. This is why I am looking for less 'opinion' based comments, and more unbaised details about the game.
So again, once the story is old (ie people begin using the space bar through it), what elements are left that are superior (and how are they superior) to other MMO's?
You asked what made the game stand apart from other MMOs. I give you a list of 10 things that made it stand out. 10 features that differentiated it. It wasn't opinion, it was fact. Whether you place the same value on those things that many of us do is up to you. But we are discussing longevity here, and the 10 things I listed are reasons this game will survive through the long haul. The value you place on them does not matter in that sense. It only matters to whether you are going to play and enjoy the game.
So I don't feel the need to try and sell this game to you anymore. You obviously are going to continue to ask the same question over and over, and despite the fact that your question was answered in full, you will continue to say, "but, but, but....opinion!" So the only relevant question to this topic is why are you still asking? You've made it pretty clear you have no intention of playing this game, and no answer, no matter how thorough, will satisfy you since you already have made up your mind. So why continue asking a question nobody will be able to give you a satisfactory answer to? Why not just move on? Or is this simply a bait attempt?
You all took my post way out of context! /FACEPALM!
I am not looking for SWG2. I was merely mentioning it as example of elements that created longetivity and hook people to the game.
I fear for SW:TOR in it's current state that it just does not have much longetivity.
Over 85% of the content is overlapping across all classes. And besides combat and lazy crafting SW:TOR just doesn't offer anything.
So when people are done playing through one character and it's storyline, they are pretty much done.
Sure you can reroll another class, but besided it's unique story quest you are faced with doing tons of the same content all over again.
So you can bet a lot of people will already end up being bored running a second character, yet alone a third one.
For me, I am good side and always will be. I hate rolling dark side characters, as it's just not my taste. So I am stuck to the Republic side.
SW:TOR needs non-combat elements and quickly. Be it in form of mini games, housing, better more engaging crafting, more and better customization, achievements, collections, whatever.... it needs it badly!
Just running missions and flashing your light saber over and over again, day after day, with nothing else to do, will get tiresome eventually.
That's according to you, heck I know people in WoW that took anywhere from 5 to 8 characters to max doing the same exact things. I can bet you that every player in WoW had more than 1 toon and the questing never changed and the zones never changed. It was the same thing over and over again yet WoW thrived for 7 years, if it is fun people are going to do it plain and simple as that. Hell I played ME2 hundreds of times doing all of the side missions and all DLCs and not skipping any of the cutscenes, because I enjoyed it and it was fun.
You all took my post way out of context! /FACEPALM!
I am not looking for SWG2. I was merely mentioning it as example of elements that created longetivity and hook people to the game.
I fear for SW:TOR in it's current state that it just does not have much longetivity.
Over 85% of the content is overlapping across all classes. And besides combat and lazy crafting SW:TOR just doesn't offer anything.
So when people are done playing through one character and it's storyline, they are pretty much done.
Sure you can reroll another class, but besided it's unique story quest you are faced with doing tons of the same content all over again.
So you can bet a lot of people will already end up being bored running a second character, yet alone a third one.
For me, I am good side and always will be. I hate rolling dark side characters, as it's just not my taste. So I am stuck to the Republic side.
SW:TOR needs non-combat elements and quickly. Be it in form of mini games, housing, better more engaging crafting, more and better customization, achievements, collections, whatever.... it needs it badly!
Just running missions and flashing your light saber over and over again, day after day, with nothing else to do, will get tiresome eventually.
If you had invested any serious time in SWTOR you would know that crafting is not lazy at all. Infact combined with modding system it is lot more complex once you start going towards higher levels. The amount of modification avilable and work that goes into it by crafters is really refreshing as it gives crafting a real meaning something which has been missing from themepark MMOS for along time.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
You all took my post way out of context! /FACEPALM!
I am not looking for SWG2. I was merely mentioning it as example of elements that created longetivity and hook people to the game.
I fear for SW:TOR in it's current state that it just does not have much longetivity.
Over 85% of the content is overlapping across all classes. And besides combat and lazy crafting SW:TOR just doesn't offer anything.
So when people are done playing through one character and it's storyline, they are pretty much done.
Sure you can reroll another class, but besided it's unique story quest you are faced with doing tons of the same content all over again.
So you can bet a lot of people will already end up being bored running a second character, yet alone a third one.
For me, I am good side and always will be. I hate rolling dark side characters, as it's just not my taste. So I am stuck to the Republic side.
SW:TOR needs non-combat elements and quickly. Be it in form of mini games, housing, better more engaging crafting, more and better customization, achievements, collections, whatever.... it needs it badly!
Just running missions and flashing your light saber over and over again, day after day, with nothing else to do, will get tiresome eventually.
I hate to make the analogy, but World of Warcraft, undeniably the most popular MMO to date, has little else to it other than combat. The crafting system in WoW is as painstakingly shallow as TOR.
Pretty much all there is at the end of WoW is combat - PvP battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons and raids. And yet it was the most popular MMO to date? So I think you are overthinking what people actually want from an endgame. Most of those players are quite happy to keep making alts as well, so SWTOR will suit them well with the varied dialogue options.
Yes some people like niches like housing and social stuff, but most of those players already have happy established homes in LOTRO, EQ2 and Vanguard... and they make up quite a small population of the overall market. TOR can add social fluff in later if theres a market for it, but its the end game combat that will make or break this game so they should focus on fleshing that out first.
Any list made is going to be from that players perspective, as each person will have a different reason for sticking around. There is no universal gauge of what would be superior to everyone.
True, in the terms of opinion areas.
However, there as some things that are generally common among most gamers. For example, most gamers do not like extreme Death Penalties, or Long Grinding. Sure opinions vary, but generally these statments are relatively accurate.
So what I am looking for, are examples of general concepts that make TOR a much better game than other MMO's.
For example, VO's are generally considered an improvement over text. Are there some other elements like this that TOR excels above other MMOs? Is there something about how combat mechanic is designed that shines?
What really concerns me about TOR, is that the world seems so linear -- more linear than WoW, for example -- that I do not see a lot of room for replayability compared to say WoW.
Pretty much all there is at the end of WoW is combat - PvP battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons and raids. And yet it was the most popular MMO to date? So I think you are overthinking what people actually want from an endgame. Most of those players are quite happy to keep making alts as well, so SWTOR will suit them well with the varied dialogue options.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but TOR appears to be much more linear / restrictive than WoW.
In WoW, you can bounce all over the place and quest, but in TOR it seems like you are channeled into following a relatively narrow path based upon Class story.
Can a trooper realistically play on non-trooper worlds, and not gimp himself for not following the story map?
Originally posted by Loekii Originally posted by Cthulhu23
As for your question about the details of what other content they have, and what makes this game stand out from other themepark MMOs, I gave YOU a very specific list of 10 things that make TOR stand out from most other MMOs. A very long, specific list of features that make this game solid. And I did it because you asked for it on one of the threads yesterday. And, of course, you either didn't bother to read it or you are just ignoring it because it doesn't fit in with your definition of what constitutes a good game. But I'm not making you another list. If you want to know what this game does that sets it apart....go find the other thread yourself.
You gave a rather opinionated list, rather than one that that makes TOR stand out above other MMOs. As you pointed out, it doesn't fit into what I consider to be a good game for the most part -- or more accurately what I would consider something 'different' and 'more engaging' than other MMO's.
It is easy to say a game is 'great' and 'fun', without having to meet another persons' criteria for those terms. I can say that the game is 'poor' and 'unfun', but that doesn't mean that everyone will have that same opinion. This is why I am looking for less 'opinion' based comments, and more unbaised details about the game.
So again, once the story is old (ie people begin using the space bar through it), what elements are left that are superior (and how are they superior) to other MMO's?
Kind of a catch 22 there don't you think? You're basically asking for an opinion and then dismissing it because its opinionated. You ask what elements of TOR are superior and how? C'mon man, uncork a little.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Obviously no game can deliver content faster than players consum it! (maybe RIFT & Trion are the only exception)....
I´ve been playing WoW for over 4 years and i awaited expansions for a loooong time....and it wasn´t really a problem (and i´m talking on the SLOWEST company delivering....Blizzard).
I belive SWTOR will give me a great entretaintment during months...and that is all i am looking for
You all took my post way out of context! /FACEPALM!
I am not looking for SWG2. I was merely mentioning it as example of elements that created longetivity and hook people to the game.
I fear for SW:TOR in it's current state that it just does not have much longetivity.
Over 85% of the content is overlapping across all classes. And besides combat and lazy crafting SW:TOR just doesn't offer anything.
So when people are done playing through one character and it's storyline, they are pretty much done.
Sure you can reroll another class, but besided it's unique story quest you are faced with doing tons of the same content all over again.
So you can bet a lot of people will already end up being bored running a second character, yet alone a third one.
For me, I am good side and always will be. I hate rolling dark side characters, as it's just not my taste. So I am stuck to the Republic side.
SW:TOR needs non-combat elements and quickly. Be it in form of mini games, housing, better more engaging crafting, more and better customization, achievements, collections, whatever.... it needs it badly!
Just running missions and flashing your light saber over and over again, day after day, with nothing else to do, will get tiresome eventually.
I hate to make the analogy, but World of Warcraft, undeniably the most popular MMO to date, has little else to it other than combat. The crafting system in WoW is as painstakingly shallow as TOR.
Pretty much all there is at the end of WoW is combat - PvP battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons and raids. And yet it was the most popular MMO to date? So I think you are overthinking what people actually want from an endgame. Most of those players are quite happy to keep making alts as well, so SWTOR will suit them well with the varied dialogue options.
Yes some people like niches like housing and social stuff, but most of those players already have happy established homes in LOTRO, EQ2 and Vanguard... and they make up quite a small population of the overall market. TOR can add social fluff in later if theres a market for it, but its the end game combat that will make or break this game so they should focus on fleshing that out first.
When WoW did it, it was fresh and new. Instanced End game raids hadn't really been done before so they were new and exciting. This allowed them to build a playerbase and that snowballed. Once their playerbase was so big they then had social ties to keep players playing regardless of how tired they were of the content. I know I personally kept raiding MC/BWL for friends when I no longer wanted to play.
SWTOR on the otherhand has an uphill battle. It isn't doing a new and exciting engame so people are wise to what this type of endgame brings. A lot of people are burnt on the endgame raid or die mentality and simply will not do it. Others will do it to see the raids once but won't continue to grind them through hard and nightmare. The key to the WoW endgame was the peer pressure or social responsibility players had for their guild/raids and SWTOR doesn't have a new or exciting endgame to keep players engaged enough for it to build.
Kind of a catch 22 there don't you think? You're basically asking for an opinion and then dismissing it because its opinionated. You ask what elements of TOR are superior and how? C'mon man, uncork a little.
I am actually asking for a more neutral opinon.
Again, for example, Voice Overs are generally considered a better form of handing out quests as opposed to a wall of text. Yes that is an opinion, but it is one that most people generally agree with.
On the contrary, saying TOR's gameplay is fun, is a much more specific opinion, and not as general as the above opinion.
So what I was asking for, were are there any examples of where TOR excels in a more general sense (like it does with VOs), rather than the more specific opinions he presented.
When WoW did it, it was fresh and new. Instanced End game raids hadn't really been done before so they were new and exciting. This allowed them to build a playerbase and that snowballed. Once their playerbase was so big they then had social ties to keep players playing regardless of how tired they were of the content. I know I personally kept raiding MC/BWL for friends when I no longer wanted to play.
SWTOR on the otherhand has an uphill battle. It isn't doing a new and exciting engame so people are wise to what this type of endgame brings. A lot of people are burnt on the endgame raid or die mentality and simply will not do it. Others will do it to see the raids once but won't continue to grind them through hard and nightmare. The key to the WoW endgame was the peer pressure or social responsibility players had for their guild/raids and SWTOR doesn't have a new or exciting endgame to keep players engaged enough for it to build.
I agree.
I do not think WoW would do as well today, if it had to content with the shadow that WoW has created.
People are board with the same content, and WoW still seems to do it better than most other MMOs -- partially because of its revenue. I do not think games can 'out WoW, WoW'.
So the question is how TOR will be different enough from WoW, to not feel like its old material.
Comments
That's one way of looking at it, and tbh I'm not surprised that TOR critics or opponents come to that conclusion, it has a part wishful thinking in it
Another imo more logical and sensible reason is that yes, the story part is great, but they want players to give the choice to skip past it for those that want to, so that players with different tastes are catered to: 80% may want to follow the story and enjoys it immensely above the stale textbased questing that TOR critics seem to hold on a pedestal, yet in this way the 20% players that doesn't care for story immersive questing still can have the option to skip it where wanted.
With as a result that both groups of players are happy: those that like story in their questing are able to enjoy it, those that don't are able to skip ahead.
Seems smart enough to me to implement such option.
It was moderately successful, although maybe less considering the huge IP they had.
That changed however when it started bleeding large numbers of players when EQ2 and WoW arrived on the scene. The steep decline got only more emphasised and sped up when CU and NGE followed it up afterwards, but make no mistake, the NGE was an attempt to turn the decline that was happening even before any NGE. In fact, you might say that without an EQ2 and more so a WoW, there probably wouldn't have been an NGE, certainly not in that format.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Actually, it is the other way around. people keep knocking SWTOR because it is not SWG.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Admittedly, it's both - but at least ex-SWG fans who knock TOR know at least a little about what TOR is, and that's why they're knocking it. It's not their kind of game, no other MMO is, and that's frustrating. People knocking SWG, for the most part, don't know anything about the game at all.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I think one could also say that maybe if they'd addressed the game's issues, while still being true to the kind of game it was, they'd have been a lot more successful in stopping the bleeding. Or at least slowing it. Players would come and go, but they were on a slippery slope. It was an aging MMO afterall.. but if it'd aged gracefully, it might never have fallen as far as it has. Maybe even still chugging along to this day, much more successfully than it was, as the only real sandbox MMO other than EVE.
..and ex players wouldn't be here pestering TOR fans. Well, at least not quite as much :P
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I tried SWG because it was a gift, pre-nge. And I hated the game. It made no sense to me and I couldn't play more than a few days. Most sandbox games are just not for me. Although I did enjoy Darkfall for a month. The FPS type combat was fun for awhile, I just am not into having to macro to win.
I loved all three weekend beta tests of TOR. I never skipped any VO and loved the stories. Even though I repeated a lot of content. It always felt different with a different class. They addressed you very different if you were Sith vs say a IA. Or a Jedi vs a Smuggler. So I will be one of many that will love the VO and stories in TOR and won't be skipping much. Can't say never, because I may run some flashpoints with guildies or PUGs and will skip if they want just for group reasons.
So I also liked the quote from the OP. I look forward to seeing more and more content over the next couple of years.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
As a matter of fact I was playing Asheron's Call before WoW and SWG came along I also played Earth & Beyond for the brief time that it was out, and nether of those games where as broken as SWG. You need any more MMO credentials from me?
The only thing "telling" about that is that Bioware recognized that not everyone who plays TOR will want to sit through every side quest VO, and are making a game that can cater to the powergamer as well as people that like the stories. I think it would be more of a bad omen if they never added that space bar in, because it would mean that they are forcing players to sit through the VO because the rest of the game doesn't have the content to sustain it. Obviously, that's not the case. Bioware is saying, "Hey, we've got everything that every other MMO has as far as content, and more in many cases. So if you want to skip the story, you can. " But of course that's not good enough for some people.
As for your question about the details of what other content they have, and what makes this game stand out from other themepark MMOs, I gave YOU a very specific list of 10 things that make TOR stand out from most other MMOs. A very long, specific list of features that make this game solid. And I did it because you asked for it on one of the threads yesterday. And, of course, you either didn't bother to read it or you are just ignoring it because it doesn't fit in with your definition of what constitutes a good game. But I'm not making you another list. If you want to know what this game does that sets it apart....go find the other thread yourself.
I didn't mean for it to be about credentials, I apologize if it came off that way. Just confused as to why you're knocking a game you seem to know nothing about.. It had issues, but so do most MMOs. I don't get why you'd think it was so broken. Unless you were one of the players that really wanted to be a Jedi, and yeah, they fumbled that part pretty badly.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Crappy PvP. Thats why swtor have a balanced pvp?, and im a warhammer veteran i know about unbalanced pvp. And yes, we want ghost towns all over the maps, like in swg. You need to undestand this: swtor is not SWG II, and it wont be. More Social stuff?, lol. Men, you have no idea about what are you talking about, im not a wower, i dont even like the game, but they did the same thing over the last years, ¨add new content¨, and guess what, WoW still have millions playing the game.
You all took my post way out of context! /FACEPALM!
I am not looking for SWG2. I was merely mentioning it as example of elements that created longetivity and hook people to the game.
I fear for SW:TOR in it's current state that it just does not have much longetivity.
Over 85% of the content is overlapping across all classes. And besides combat and lazy crafting SW:TOR just doesn't offer anything.
So when people are done playing through one character and it's storyline, they are pretty much done.
Sure you can reroll another class, but besided it's unique story quest you are faced with doing tons of the same content all over again.
So you can bet a lot of people will already end up being bored running a second character, yet alone a third one.
For me, I am good side and always will be. I hate rolling dark side characters, as it's just not my taste. So I am stuck to the Republic side.
SW:TOR needs non-combat elements and quickly. Be it in form of mini games, housing, better more engaging crafting, more and better customization, achievements, collections, whatever.... it needs it badly!
Just running missions and flashing your light saber over and over again, day after day, with nothing else to do, will get tiresome eventually.
You gave a rather opinionated list, rather than one that that makes TOR stand out above other MMOs. As you pointed out, it doesn't fit into what I consider to be a good game for the most part -- or more accurately what I would consider something 'different' and 'more engaging' than other MMO's.
It is easy to say a game is 'great' and 'fun', without having to meet another persons' criteria for those terms. I can say that the game is 'poor' and 'unfun', but that doesn't mean that everyone will have that same opinion. This is why I am looking for less 'opinion' based comments, and more unbaised details about the game.
So again, once the story is old (ie people begin using the space bar through it), what elements are left that are superior (and how are they superior) to other MMO's?
I gave the game a try it wasn't my type of game so I left at that, than again I not a big SW fan so it didn't pull me in like it pulled in others. As far as sandboxes go I don't think anything is every going to compare to AC, and after playing themeparks for so long I couldn't bring myself to pickup another sandbox game. As far as TOR goes I loved KoTOR 1 and 2 and that made me actually dig a bit into the old republic era. I was hoping for a KoTOR 3 but i am more than happy with TOR.
I can understand peoples anger over what happened with SWG, but to blame BW and hate TOR for it is just plain wrong. When the blame lays with SOE, the first poster that I responsed to just hate on the game for the sake of hating. The guy runs to every TOR thread spitting out hate a venom.
I have nothing against SWG, it's that just people that hate and blame BW/EA because of what happend to SWG. It was known it 08 that BW wasn't making a SWG2, but some people seem to think that, that is what BW owes them, because they decided to make a star wars title. Failing to realize that they are making a title based on one of their own games.
Any list made is going to be from that players perspective, as each person will have a different reason for sticking around. There is no universal gauge of what would be superior to everyone.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
First of all, you are leaving out the part about each class being fun to play, and a different experience in itself. And I'm not talking about story, I'm talking about gameplay. So, story aside, there is replay value there. Story adds to that.
Second, I disagree about the "lazy crafting." That's just a silly statement. It is no more "lazy" than any other themepark MMO out there. In fact, it actually requires more micro-managing than all of them except EQ2 and Vanguard (if you consider that a themepark game). It's not nearly as immersive as those two games, nor the standard sandbox games like SWG. We all know that. But it's a much deeper system than any other current themepark game out there aside from the two I just mentioned. And as for lazy...literally the only difference between TOR's crafting and a game like WoW is that you don't have to go /afk while your character forges a piece of armor at an imaginary forge. You can actually be out adventuring while your crew does the crafting for you. But yoou still have to initiate the crafting by pressing a button, just like any other game. You just don't actually have to sit in one place and watch your character DO the crafting. Aside from that, there is absolutely no difference, other than the system being deeper than most games. Not to mention, the gear you make can actually be used as you are levelling. Never a bad thing.
Now, if you are comparing it to SWG's crafting or another sandbox game's crafing, then yes...it will fall short. No dispute there.
I'll also agree with you on one more point: There does need to be more mini-games, and there does need to be more alternate paths for levelling---some overlapping planets during the levelling process so people have a choice of where to go at any given level. For a game that is so driven by its story, this is one thing that is mandatory, IMO, and my biggest personal gripe about the game at this point. I don't want Bioware to make the mistake that Trion did and push out content that is strictly end game content post launch. That basically ruined Rift, and turned it into nothing more than an end-game lobby atmosphere. So hopefully, Bioware takes heed and understands that they'll need to fill out levelling content as well as end game content.
You asked what made the game stand apart from other MMOs. I give you a list of 10 things that made it stand out. 10 features that differentiated it. It wasn't opinion, it was fact. Whether you place the same value on those things that many of us do is up to you. But we are discussing longevity here, and the 10 things I listed are reasons this game will survive through the long haul. The value you place on them does not matter in that sense. It only matters to whether you are going to play and enjoy the game.
So I don't feel the need to try and sell this game to you anymore. You obviously are going to continue to ask the same question over and over, and despite the fact that your question was answered in full, you will continue to say, "but, but, but....opinion!" So the only relevant question to this topic is why are you still asking? You've made it pretty clear you have no intention of playing this game, and no answer, no matter how thorough, will satisfy you since you already have made up your mind. So why continue asking a question nobody will be able to give you a satisfactory answer to? Why not just move on? Or is this simply a bait attempt?
That's according to you, heck I know people in WoW that took anywhere from 5 to 8 characters to max doing the same exact things. I can bet you that every player in WoW had more than 1 toon and the questing never changed and the zones never changed. It was the same thing over and over again yet WoW thrived for 7 years, if it is fun people are going to do it plain and simple as that. Hell I played ME2 hundreds of times doing all of the side missions and all DLCs and not skipping any of the cutscenes, because I enjoyed it and it was fun.
If you had invested any serious time in SWTOR you would know that crafting is not lazy at all. Infact combined with modding system it is lot more complex once you start going towards higher levels. The amount of modification avilable and work that goes into it by crafters is really refreshing as it gives crafting a real meaning something which has been missing from themepark MMOS for along time.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
I hate to make the analogy, but World of Warcraft, undeniably the most popular MMO to date, has little else to it other than combat. The crafting system in WoW is as painstakingly shallow as TOR.
Pretty much all there is at the end of WoW is combat - PvP battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons and raids. And yet it was the most popular MMO to date? So I think you are overthinking what people actually want from an endgame. Most of those players are quite happy to keep making alts as well, so SWTOR will suit them well with the varied dialogue options.
Yes some people like niches like housing and social stuff, but most of those players already have happy established homes in LOTRO, EQ2 and Vanguard... and they make up quite a small population of the overall market. TOR can add social fluff in later if theres a market for it, but its the end game combat that will make or break this game so they should focus on fleshing that out first.
True, in the terms of opinion areas.
However, there as some things that are generally common among most gamers. For example, most gamers do not like extreme Death Penalties, or Long Grinding. Sure opinions vary, but generally these statments are relatively accurate.
So what I am looking for, are examples of general concepts that make TOR a much better game than other MMO's.
For example, VO's are generally considered an improvement over text. Are there some other elements like this that TOR excels above other MMOs? Is there something about how combat mechanic is designed that shines?
What really concerns me about TOR, is that the world seems so linear -- more linear than WoW, for example -- that I do not see a lot of room for replayability compared to say WoW.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but TOR appears to be much more linear / restrictive than WoW.
In WoW, you can bounce all over the place and quest, but in TOR it seems like you are channeled into following a relatively narrow path based upon Class story.
Can a trooper realistically play on non-trooper worlds, and not gimp himself for not following the story map?
It is easy to say a game is 'great' and 'fun', without having to meet another persons' criteria for those terms. I can say that the game is 'poor' and 'unfun', but that doesn't mean that everyone will have that same opinion. This is why I am looking for less 'opinion' based comments, and more unbaised details about the game.
So again, once the story is old (ie people begin using the space bar through it), what elements are left that are superior (and how are they superior) to other MMO's?
Kind of a catch 22 there don't you think? You're basically asking for an opinion and then dismissing it because its opinionated. You ask what elements of TOR are superior and how? C'mon man, uncork a little.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Obviously no game can deliver content faster than players consum it! (maybe RIFT & Trion are the only exception)....
I´ve been playing WoW for over 4 years and i awaited expansions for a loooong time....and it wasn´t really a problem (and i´m talking on the SLOWEST company delivering....Blizzard).
I belive SWTOR will give me a great entretaintment during months...and that is all i am looking for
When WoW did it, it was fresh and new. Instanced End game raids hadn't really been done before so they were new and exciting. This allowed them to build a playerbase and that snowballed. Once their playerbase was so big they then had social ties to keep players playing regardless of how tired they were of the content. I know I personally kept raiding MC/BWL for friends when I no longer wanted to play.
SWTOR on the otherhand has an uphill battle. It isn't doing a new and exciting engame so people are wise to what this type of endgame brings. A lot of people are burnt on the endgame raid or die mentality and simply will not do it. Others will do it to see the raids once but won't continue to grind them through hard and nightmare. The key to the WoW endgame was the peer pressure or social responsibility players had for their guild/raids and SWTOR doesn't have a new or exciting endgame to keep players engaged enough for it to build.
I am actually asking for a more neutral opinon.
Again, for example, Voice Overs are generally considered a better form of handing out quests as opposed to a wall of text. Yes that is an opinion, but it is one that most people generally agree with.
On the contrary, saying TOR's gameplay is fun, is a much more specific opinion, and not as general as the above opinion.
So what I was asking for, were are there any examples of where TOR excels in a more general sense (like it does with VOs), rather than the more specific opinions he presented.
I agree.
I do not think WoW would do as well today, if it had to content with the shadow that WoW has created.
People are board with the same content, and WoW still seems to do it better than most other MMOs -- partially because of its revenue. I do not think games can 'out WoW, WoW'.
So the question is how TOR will be different enough from WoW, to not feel like its old material.