Like others have said here, it will work excactly like Shadowbane did, which is a good thing. In all my time in Shadowbane, the number of times I was randomly ganked while farming mobs could be counted with the fingers in one hand...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Its because with large populations it turns out everyone is/wants to be a wolf, not a sheep.
This is why a sandbox with FFA PVP full loot mechanics without making PKing a considerable risk will always devolve into being either
a. obscure
b. broken
c. online pvp arenas
I know i've been harping on this here for a long time, but i will repeat it.
The secret is in the pudding, and by pudding I mean making the sheep -feel- safe. Give the sheep (that all want to be wolves anyways) a sense of security and you will have a good sandbox. Because if you don't and the sheep find out that they rather be wolves, you will just end up in a pvp arena.
My humble semi-divine opinion is that this can be done by giving people direct control over combat, instead of making it rely on stats. This way the sheep -feels- in control and can not blame the wolf for having sharper fangs if it gets eaten.
when you create a game solely based on one thing, you get themepark...wether its pvp or pve.
pvp themeparks just love to call themselves sandboxes these days when true sandboxes have "something for everyone" not just big empty worlds with nothing to do than pvp.
when you create a game solely based on one thing, you get themepark...wether its pvp or pve.
pvp themeparks just love to call themselves sandboxes these days when true sandboxes have "something for everyone" not just big empty worlds with nothing to do than pvp.
Well, with the addition of player built cities, territory control and meaningful crafting (thanks to item decay), hopefuly a bit more to do than PvP. One can hope...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
when you create a game solely based on one thing, you get themepark...wether its pvp or pve.
pvp themeparks just love to call themselves sandboxes these days when true sandboxes have "something for everyone" not just big empty worlds with nothing to do than pvp.
Well, with the addition of player built cities, territory control and meaningful crafting (thanks to item decay), hopefuly a bit more to do than PvP. One can hope...
After mourning fiasco, dark & light scandal, Darkfall letdown and Mortal Online sham...Im jaded when it comes to no name companies with zero funding making a self proclaimed "sandbox"
when you create a game solely based on one thing, you get themepark...wether its pvp or pve.
pvp themeparks just love to call themselves sandboxes these days when true sandboxes have "something for everyone" not just big empty worlds with nothing to do than pvp.
Well, with the addition of player built cities, territory control and meaningful crafting (thanks to item decay), hopefuly a bit more to do than PvP. One can hope...
After mourning fiasco, dark & light scandal, Darkfall letdown and Mortal Online sham...Im jaded when it comes to no name companies with zero funding making a self proclaimed "sandbox"
Right there with you. 99% skepticism 1% hope. But I just can't bring myself to play another themepark game... hence why not playing SWTOR.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
While the mention of classes removes this as a sandbox in my mind i am getting a kick out of the responses on this thread.
If i could write this in all caps in size 50 font i would but
"Why are people so terrified to lose pixles in a game"
So many people scared of full loot it baffles my mind. Ok i get it if this is a game that has you grinding gear in raids for months and then allows that to be looted...but typically full loot games offer gear that is both easy to aquire and short lived regardless of looting.
Im thinking of Darkfall, an EPIC PVE game that was degraded and wrecked by min/maxer FPS shooter crowd who wanted it all to be an easy pvp arena game. People who complained about the PVE getting in the way of their maxed out character loaded with macros and hacks so they could stomp people in the quickest and easiest way possible. That game had epic pve, old school pve, where you farmed mobs for usefull stuff to feed your other non combat activites in the game. Loot was cheap, easy to get or make, and the gear broke quick or was looted.
You lose the gear anyway, all you have to do is bank every 15min and you never lose anything of real value, and should you get something of high value, again, banking was the answer.
Still, i cant help but laugh at so many people who are still terrified at "losing their hard work" when all they have to do in a full loot game is bank more often to protect that hard earned work.
Back on topic of this game. Reading up on the game on their website....never once is the word sandbox written, it has classes and what appears to be a linear quest system.....oh wait i know, people saw player made cities ect and assume thats sandbox is what happend.
Still looks like an interesting game, but this game is in no way a sandbox, its a themepark with player made cities. Typically when a developer goes the sandbox route, they mention the word when describing the game..
and the quote that fully removes my interest in the game from their overview ont he game is "Like leveling, equipment follows a similar ideology of being fast and easy to setup" Fast and easy...just like every single other themepark out there....sigh...some interesting features though....
If i could write this in all caps in size 50 font i would but
"Why are people so terrified to lose pixles in a game"
If you have to ask that question then you don't understand the concept of value and effort/earning.
It doesn't matter that it's pixels or gold bullion or diamonds or marbles.
It's what those things represent, the value they have to a person and the effort that it takes to obtain them.
You say "pixels" because you want to remove them from their context and force them into another context to devalue them or just show that they have no value.
And if you were to take any virtual item and offer to trade someone their sports car or house they are probably going to say no.
But in the context of the game these items have value. It's like the idea of money. Money only has a value based on the government backing it and how people perceive it.
These items have value because people value the game play and effort it takes to acquire them. Since these items provide benefit in the game they also have value in the game. Take them out of context and they mean nothing. In the context of what people need to do to acquire them they have worth.
Otherwise you undermind your argument. If these pixels have no value then why would anyone want to loot them? They aren't desirable if they have no value. So it wouldn't be a big deal to never have full looting at all as there is no value right? But in the context of the game and the effort to acquire/loot them, what they represent has value.
I'll add that the reason people don't want to just bank things every 15 minutes is that it is making the effort to obtain these items far harder than the game play experience is worth. I would offer that if these items can be banked every 15 minutes then they have very little value to effort and that the full looting isn't necessary as it provides no real benefit.
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If i could write this in all caps in size 50 font i would but
"Why are people so terrified to lose pixles in a game"
If you have to ask that question then you don't understand the concept of value and effort/earning.
It doesn't matter that it's pixels or gold bullion or diamonds or marbles.
It's what those things represent, the value they have to a person and the effort that it takes to obtain them.
You say "pixels" because you want to remove them from their context and force them into another context to devalue them or just show that they have no value.
And if you were to take any virtual item and offer to trade someone their sports car or house they are probably going to say no.
But in the context of the game these items have value. It's like the idea of money. Money only has a value based on the government backing it and how people perceive it.
These items have value because people value the game play and effort it takes to acquire them. Since these items provide benefit in the game they also have value in the game. Take them out of context and they mean nothing. In the context of what people need to do to acquire them they have worth.
Otherwise you undermind your argument. If these pixels have no value then why would anyone want to loot them? They aren't desirable if they have no value. So it wouldn't be a big deal to never have full looting at all as there is no value right? But in the context of the game and the effort to acquire/loot them, what they represent has value.
Your right. I Donjt understand that. I play for entertainment not creating value. When i play for a month and pay $15 then get bored and move on, i dont see that $15 as being wasted as i payed for a month of entertainment, once the entertainment had ended i moved on having viewed the transaction as a fair deal.
Also you missed a majority of what i said and focused on one line (as per forum argument rules) Please read the rest of the post which explains why loosing gear in full loot games isnt like losing your wow purple gear that took months of raids to achieve...oh what i just repeated it so no need to read my post again...
You should actually play a full loot game, since it really does seem like your talking about full loots game but what your saying hasnt ever applied to any of the full loot games ive ever played...i play them a lot. People dont loot everything because they can (unless they are proving a point of course) Typically consumable and things that can be used (no matter how low value) go first, since their use is guranteed by the ganker. Then anything of value or stackables, in darkfalls case this was gold enchants or resources (weight permitting on resources)....actual gear was only looted if it fit what they used for seiges or needed. The rest was left on the body for a scavanger or for the returning victem.
And again.. All that stuff i just described in my scenatio could have been saved had the ficticious victem banked it all rather than stay our grinding for more. Banking often is something that people who are terrfied of full loot games NEVER seem to grasp. On top of the fact that gear you farm is isnt valuable...gear you roll out in pvp squads may be and gear you seige in might be...but the average joe leveling stuff isnt rocking out in top end gear...
Anyway i await your response that will highlight one sentance while ignoring the entierty of my post.
People are giving it the sandbox label because there are several core features that allow the playee to shape the world themselves. Theme park games dont have the option. Nevermind that it has classes, tab targetting and quests. Those are things that the sandbox genre has needed for ages. Player cities. It is more of a sand park.. or themebox if you will. FFA full loot is also widely regaurded as a sandbox feature. The ideas here are the best mix of the two that ive seen thus far.. im hoping that the execution is better than what weve seen lately though.
This game does have some cool features, But it is too focused on pvp. from what I've read that the focus of crafting will be based around around npcs. with the focus of that being large scale production of items for pvp with a few heavily taxed npc city stations for solo players kinda far down the to do list.
Thank you for ignoring the sentence that comes just before the highlighted text. You know.. the one that clearly states a handful will be efficient mob spawns and those will be up for grabs for the strongest groups.. i do assume that the majority of mob spawns will be easy spawns.. and some may be left alone entirely for the solo player. A game lke this should have a large amount of spawns... enough for you to be able to go to a dozen or so other of your preferred locations. Not every single spawn will be contested.
While there are many mob encampments in these zones, only a handful could be considered very efficient ones, especially for gaining larges amounts of experience and resources.
You think this is a positive statement? Yes we will have many mobs for people to kill but most will be complete shit. Wow sign me up.
I was interested until I read that quote about how they placed pve mobs. How boring and non-sandbox. I want my sandbox to try and get the feel of a living fantasy world. Just bunching mobs together in small dense areas to make pvp hotspots out of them sounds like the opposite and much more themepark in design philosophy.
I'll keep playing Swtor until a good sandbox pops up, please please Darkfall 2.0 materialize soon!
You know, in the real world, African Elephants, hunted by poachers who are in turn hunted by rangers are not all over the place, right?
Thank you for ignoring the sentence that comes just before the highlighted text. You know.. the one that clearly states a handful will be efficient mob spawns and those will be up for grabs for the strongest groups.. i do assume that the majority of mob spawns will be easy spawns.. and some may be left alone entirely for the solo player. A game lke this should have a large amount of spawns... enough for you to be able to go to a dozen or so other of your preferred locations. Not every single spawn will be contested.
While there are many mob encampments in these zones, only a handful could be considered very efficient ones, especially for gaining larges amounts of experience and resources.
You think this is a positive statement? Yes we will have many mobs for people to kill but most will be complete shit. Wow sign me up.
It's perfect or it's shit huh? I'd guess you never played Shadowbane.
That is painfully obvious...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Your right. I Donjt understand that. I play for entertainment not creating value. When i play for a month and pay $15 then get bored and move on, i dont see that $15 as being wasted as i payed for a month of entertainment, once the entertainment had ended i moved on having viewed the transaction as a fair deal.
Also you missed a majority of what i said and focused on one line (as per forum argument rules) Please read the rest of the post which explains why loosing gear in full loot games isnt like losing your wow purple gear that took months of raids to achieve...oh what i just repeated it so no need to read my post again...
You should actually play a full loot game, since it really does seem like your talking about full loots game but what your saying hasnt ever applied to any of the full loot games ive ever played...i play them a lot. People dont loot everything because they can (unless they are proving a point of course) Typically consumable and things that can be used (no matter how low value) go first, since their use is guranteed by the ganker. Then anything of value or stackables, in darkfalls case this was gold enchants or resources (weight permitting on resources)....actual gear was only looted if it fit what they used for seiges or needed. The rest was left on the body for a scavanger or for the returning victem.
And again.. All that stuff i just described in my scenatio could have been saved had the ficticious victem banked it all rather than stay our grinding for more. Banking often is something that people who are terrfied of full loot games NEVER seem to grasp. On top of the fact that gear you farm is isnt valuable...gear you roll out in pvp squads may be and gear you seige in might be...but the average joe leveling stuff isnt rocking out in top end gear...
Anyway i await your response that will highlight one sentance while ignoring the entierty of my post.
I read your article and fully understand why losing loot isn't like losing your purples. As a point of note, I played Lineage 2 for over 4 years and though it isn't a full loot game, it was, for a while, a game where you could die, drop several valuable items and of course have to start over. So on that count, I'm familiar with losing items of value. You would just accept it and work hard and create/buy more. You didn't cry over spilled milk.
As far as "full loot' I did try darkfall and enjoyed it very much. However, I realized, at least for me, that it was the type of game that I would have to play full out or not at all. Since I don't have the time to be competitive in a game like that I opted for not playing.
I get that one would just hvae to bank it. I get that gear, for the most part, is reasonably easy to get. However, running back, banking and then doing it again so that you have enough gear to "gear yourself up" is what i'm talking about as far as time and value. It's not fun for people to stock up on hordes of gear just so you can lose it and run back and get it and then stock up some more.
I completley understand this point. But it belies your statement about gear being meaningless. If this gear is meaningless then there is no reason to loot it as there is no value. But because players want to loot it then it has value. If a player keeps losing his gear then all he's doing is grinding and crafting to stock up on more gear where the person who is looting, and possibly in a pack, is always winning, always getting gear as a replacement as well as something to sell.
You see? It has value. It is a commodity. and players who dont' like full loot games dont' see the value in constantly restocking their gear just to have it taken again.
In a way it' slike perma death. People who like permadeath games are tied in to a different mentality. they aren't tied into the character so much as the experience of using a character until they can't use it anymore. Other players tend to be tied into a character and they can't quite make the leap to the idea that the charcter itself is meaningless as the character is not what the game is about.
As far as playiing games for fun well "of course". But when I talk about value and time and effort that goes into the fun. Do something long enough that you dont find fun and suddenly it becomes a chore. Players who feel like they are constantly banking gear find it tedious as that's not what they want to be doing. It's becomes a chore. There is no fun for them because they are coming at the game in a completely different way. Their time, their "fun time" is curtailed because they are not making the leap that part of the "fun" is out gearing, collecting, out thinking the other person. for them it's more like polishing a diamond of sorts and the acquisition and slow powering of the character is the fun. All they are going to do is find constant banking of gear and eventually scrambling for more gear to be tedious.
And what's a great laugh is that when character eventually get amazing gear they don't wear it until they are surrounded by allies to protect them. Probably one of the few times when they might not need great gear.
so yes, gear has value. Even if it's easy to come by. If people want to loot it then it has value. If people don't want to lose it, regardless of how easy it is then that sort of ups the value. The value is just more than mere price. It's time and effort and "fun" for them.
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Sovrath, I think we get your point. Though, with your novel-like offerings, I feel that your point may be getting rather vague to a lot of people...
The problem with it is that the gear you have equipped does not get looted in this game. It simply takes damage and can be repaired numerous times until it finally breaks. So yes, you can take your epic purples out and actually use them without having the fear of getting them looted from your corpse. The only reason you'll need to bank more often is to reduce the loss of profit you'll take by waiting far too long and getting killed by someone. I'm sure you understand this. But again, it should be repeated, you will only lose inventory items.
And of course the items have value. Even vendor trash items have value in gold. Perhaps armor and weapons can be broken down or smelted into craftable resources. Cloth turned into bandages. Weeds, herbs, and flowers turned into alchemy potions. So on and so forth. The inventory items are valuable because they can be used to your advantage. Maybe you'll get lucky and happen upon a magic item that was looted in their current haul of hunts. The full loot isn't the issue, it never has been, and never will be. It's the encouragement to kill by most developers. Even if they didn't initially mean it as encouragement.
I feel that with a 3rd person, tab-targetting system with groups, avoiding combat will be a lot easier than you think. It will be the same as AoC or WoW. In fact, it will be similar to any game where you have an enemy. The only difference is that people will have a little more incentive to kill you. being able to see your attacker from a distance and use an invisibility spell or potion could be a life saver. Combat will be more familiar to the average gamer, giving them a better chance to fight back. The character progression is said to be fairly short, meaing there aren't huge gaps in character strength. The weapons and armour will not have massive gaps of strength between them as well. There will be crowd control to help you escape from unhealthy situations. I haven't read anything about how they are going to handle murderers though, and I feel this is a make or break system for them. I have yet to see a PK system that is harsh enough on murderous folk. It's always too easy and the game eventually devolves into a bunch of murderers, murdering each other. If they can avoid that issue that has plagued these games since their inception, then I could see it actually gaining some traction in the mainstream MMO community.
It doesn't look promising. it sounds promising, there is a distinct difference. there are no screenshots or videos of the game AFAIK, all it is is some some design text and some concept art (which is very bad).
anyone can make a site and say they are making the best game ever with no evidence. However there are other indy games in development which actually have screenshots and videos, only these are actually worth any thought/discussion imo. and even those which evidence of an actual game still can end up being vapourware.
check out lifeisfeudal.com tbh they actually have a tech demo vid, and if they ever complete the game it will be fucking amazing.
Sovrath, I think we get your point. Though, with your novel-like offerings, I feel that your point may be getting rather vague to a lot of people...
That's probably true. I just wanted to respond to the idea that there is a reason why some people have issues with looting and saying that It's "just pixels" really doesnt' address the concern.
After all, if these were just pixels we wouldn't be playing these games. These games have enjoyment and can inspire the best and worst in people.
I actually like the idea that gear breaks down. I wish more games had this.
In any case, I hope they do incorporate some great ideas as it's nice to see different types of games on the horizon.
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It doesn't look promising. it sounds promising, there is a distinct difference. there are no screenshots or videos of the game AFAIK, all it is is some some design text and some concept art (which is very bad).
anyone can make a site and say they are making the best game ever with no evidence. However there are other indy games in development which actually have screenshots and videos, only these are actually worth any thought/discussion imo. and even those which evidence of an actual game still can end up being vapourware.
check out lifeisfeudal.com tbh they actually have a tech demo vid, and if they ever complete the game it will be fucking amazing.
Agreed. Even screenshots are often missleading and sometimes manipulated.
There are many indie MMOs that sounds promising but most of them sadly suck if they ever comes out.
And a game often changes during development, if you read the initial PC gamer article about WAR and how the game should be you don't recognize much with what actually released, and WAR was a high budget AAA MMO...
Still, good luck to the devs, I hope you can deliver.
If you Pk one ppl and somebody else kills you in the next 8 hours PERMADEATH, Risk / Reward.....
ok, It doesnt need to be so harsh but something that makes the sheep safe and at same time give the options to Pvpers/griefers do their stuff at a very high risk.
Sandbox's always cater to one side or the other and fail to look at the bigger picture. To understand how things must be done. It's why they always fail.
Darkblight touched on a great topic in his previous post; the holy grail of an MMO is balance. Everyone knows an MMO needs 'balance' to be good, and the better the 'balance', the greater the MMO. Balance, unfortunately, is one of those terms that no one ever understands in the same way. Most of the time, whatever benefits the player's interests is considered to them to be balance. For a trammelite, balance is being able to go out into the wilderness to make money without dying every minute. For a crafter, balance is the ability to create an item and have a good economy to make a profit in. And lastly, for most of us here, balance is the opportunity to pwn the previous two people and run off with their stuff.
The balance that darkblight wants to talk about, I believe, is the balance of all these types of players, which is what made Ultima Online the epitome of MMOs to date, but instead of discussing that he does what most of us thieves, murderers, griefers do (and I'm sure I may even in this article about my point), and goes on to discuss the balance which benefits only us, the minority of players who cause grief, chaos, and anger. And this is the major problem of balance in today's MMOs.
Now, I must state I've been a thief in any RPG I've played. I absolutely enjoy stealing, backstabbing, deceiving, and generally being a nuisance to everybody. If I can profit off another person's effort with minimal risk, great. But I'm also aware of the my role's position in the grand scheme of things. In order for me to enjoy this there needs to be another person for me to profit from, and in order for me to profit off of them, he needs to be able to make money with relative freedom, and this relative freedom only comes if there are a very limited amount of people like me, and you, who want screw him over in the lich lord room after he's been there for 2 hours straight. That other player, the trammelites or anyone who loves to roleplay and decorate their virtual homes with sparkles and glitter, are needed in droves in order to run any MMO, and they need to feel as though the entire world isn't out to completely screw them over. They are the sheep to us wolves, and just like in nature, the balance lies in having less, much less predators than there are prey.
When you cater to only one of these types, the trammelite, thief, crafter, et cetera, the MMO will eventually only consist of that type. That's what makes most MMOs to date stale and boring. No one wants to steal from another thief today who's just going to steal it back from them tomorrow. On the other hand, if you put everyone in a bubble, safe from all the evils of the world, even they will find themselves bored from a constant treadmill of levels and achievements. It's important to give everyone enough protection so they don't feel scammed of all their hard work all the time, but it's also important to provide some chaos, some destructive elements, in order to keep the world changing and to stay interesting. The key to balance then is to maintain the proper proportions of these elements.
Balance doesn't lie in PvP or PvE or crafting, it lies in the mixture of all these combined. MMOs are fantasy worlds where people interact with each other, thus it's more of a social balance that needs to take place in order to truly have an outstanding MMO. Given, individual aspects such as PvP, PvE, and crafting need to be balanced themselves, but the bigger picture is a diverse and dynamic world in which politics, drama, and power struggles take place. Ultima Online was laced with bugs, imbalanced mechanics, and always was down when you wanted to play it, but it was absolutely incomparable to anything else when it came to interaction and conflict with another human. It was a melting pot of roleplayers, murderers, griefers, crafters, you name it, even though it had all its flaws and imperfections. No one cared to max their character before heading out into the dungeons because there was an enormous mix of people to run in to, whether it be a newbie who wanted to just kill some mongbats with you, or a PK who was trying to In Por Ylem you to death. Even the huge changes that made a character go from a powerhouse to a gimp overnight didn't really stop us from starting to train a new skill from scratch the next day. Everyone was kept on the same playing field because we never really knew what tomorrow would bring.
I'd like to say Ultima Online had no 'end-game'; the way I played Ultima the first day, up until the very last, was to just get out of town and see what would happen. Every time I logged in I never had a goal other than to have fun. If I ran into some of my thief buddies, we'd go stealing; if I found myself needing money badly, I'd go kill monsters. There was always something to do, always somebody new to run in to, and it never was the same thing twice, and that only works when there is a diverse balance of every type of player imaginable. MMOs today always seems to have a focus on only one certain aspect of a world, whether it be PvP, PvE, or being a furry. The next MMO that realizes the balance between having free-for-all PvP, fully-lootable corpses, and a safe enough stable for my neon horses, I'm in.
Sorry but I had to bump your post simply for the highlighted bit. Good laugh.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Sandbox's always cater to one side or the other and fail to look at the bigger picture. To understand how things must be done. It's why they always fail.
Darkblight touched on a great topic in his previous post; the holy grail of an MMO is balance. Everyone knows an MMO needs 'balance' to be good, and the better the 'balance', the greater the MMO. Balance, unfortunately, is one of those terms that no one ever understands in the same way. Most of the time, whatever benefits the player's interests is considered to them to be balance. For a trammelite, balance is being able to go out into the wilderness to make money without dying every minute. For a crafter, balance is the ability to create an item and have a good economy to make a profit in. And lastly, for most of us here, balance is the opportunity to pwn the previous two people and run off with their stuff.
The balance that darkblight wants to talk about, I believe, is the balance of all these types of players, which is what made Ultima Online the epitome of MMOs to date, but instead of discussing that he does what most of us thieves, murderers, griefers do (and I'm sure I may even in this article about my point), and goes on to discuss the balance which benefits only us, the minority of players who cause grief, chaos, and anger. And this is the major problem of balance in today's MMOs.
Now, I must state I've been a thief in any RPG I've played. I absolutely enjoy stealing, backstabbing, deceiving, and generally being a nuisance to everybody. If I can profit off another person's effort with minimal risk, great. But I'm also aware of the my role's position in the grand scheme of things. In order for me to enjoy this there needs to be another person for me to profit from, and in order for me to profit off of them, he needs to be able to make money with relative freedom, and this relative freedom only comes if there are a very limited amount of people like me, and you, who want screw him over in the lich lord room after he's been there for 2 hours straight. That other player, the trammelites or anyone who loves to roleplay and decorate their virtual homes with sparkles and glitter, are needed in droves in order to run any MMO, and they need to feel as though the entire world isn't out to completely screw them over. They are the sheep to us wolves, and just like in nature, the balance lies in having less, much less predators than there are prey.
When you cater to only one of these types, the trammelite, thief, crafter, et cetera, the MMO will eventually only consist of that type. That's what makes most MMOs to date stale and boring. No one wants to steal from another thief today who's just going to steal it back from them tomorrow. On the other hand, if you put everyone in a bubble, safe from all the evils of the world, even they will find themselves bored from a constant treadmill of levels and achievements. It's important to give everyone enough protection so they don't feel scammed of all their hard work all the time, but it's also important to provide some chaos, some destructive elements, in order to keep the world changing and to stay interesting. The key to balance then is to maintain the proper proportions of these elements.
Balance doesn't lie in PvP or PvE or crafting, it lies in the mixture of all these combined. MMOs are fantasy worlds where people interact with each other, thus it's more of a social balance that needs to take place in order to truly have an outstanding MMO. Given, individual aspects such as PvP, PvE, and crafting need to be balanced themselves, but the bigger picture is a diverse and dynamic world in which politics, drama, and power struggles take place. Ultima Online was laced with bugs, imbalanced mechanics, and always was down when you wanted to play it, but it was absolutely incomparable to anything else when it came to interaction and conflict with another human. It was a melting pot of roleplayers, murderers, griefers, crafters, you name it, even though it had all its flaws and imperfections. No one cared to max their character before heading out into the dungeons because there was an enormous mix of people to run in to, whether it be a newbie who wanted to just kill some mongbats with you, or a PK who was trying to In Por Ylem you to death. Even the huge changes that made a character go from a powerhouse to a gimp overnight didn't really stop us from starting to train a new skill from scratch the next day. Everyone was kept on the same playing field because we never really knew what tomorrow would bring.
I'd like to say Ultima Online had no 'end-game'; the way I played Ultima the first day, up until the very last, was to just get out of town and see what would happen. Every time I logged in I never had a goal other than to have fun. If I ran into some of my thief buddies, we'd go stealing; if I found myself needing money badly, I'd go kill monsters. There was always something to do, always somebody new to run in to, and it never was the same thing twice, and that only works when there is a diverse balance of every type of player imaginable. MMOs today always seems to have a focus on only one certain aspect of a world, whether it be PvP, PvE, or being a furry. The next MMO that realizes the balance between having free-for-all PvP, fully-lootable corpses, and a safe enough stable for my neon horses, I'm in.
Sorry but I had to bump your post simply for the highlighted bit. Good laugh.
Well, I read his entire post, thanks to you because I only skimmed the thread.
And I am in total agreement with his point. I want a very diverse game world, and community. I want a game that's got all sorts of player types. Not because I want to play all those types, but because I want to experience "living" in such a diverse world.
The point on thieves goes for PKers too. You have to have some way to keep every Tom, Dick, and Harry from playing them to the point of driving other players out. And you have to allow the other players a satisfaction when they do become a victim. They have to be more than simply compensated. They have to know that the thief or PKer is at risk for what they did to them, a risk of real loss, and to somehow actively pursue the results of that risk (directly or indirectly).
And that "justice" has to work without loopholes or escape clauses.
If you Pk one ppl and somebody else kills you in the next 8 hours PERMADEATH, Risk / Reward.....
ok, It doesnt need to be so harsh but something that makes the sheep safe and at same time give the options to Pvpers/griefers do their stuff at a very high risk.
While that is a solution, I'm not so sure it's the best one. It would definitely give murderers some pause before making a decision that could render their character useless.
I have some ideas.
Any sandboxer worth their salt knows about the allignment system. They know about 'murderer towns' or 'lawless towns'. They know about stat loss or jail time. Whether we've partaken in criminal exploits or not, we are well aware of what the punishments are in most sandboxes.
I feel that if you make all NPC cities, 'kill on sight' for murderers, that it would help. This is pretty standard in sandboxes though. I feel that there should also be roaming gaurd patrols as well. Not just randomly out in the wilderness, but within a moderate vicinity of the protected city. Darkfall had some towers that were somewhat effective at times, and I feel that this should be included as well. What I don't want to see are just loads of static gaurds or 'insta-kill' gaurds popping out of thin air. Let's make it more like a maze for a criminal to get anywhere near a NPC city at all. We already know that they've stated that these cities will be safe zones anyways.
Let's also do what almost all other sandbox MMO's don't do, eliminate 'lawless' cities. There should be no NPC cities that allow safe harbor for criminals. Don't you think we as players, or the factions in the game, would eliminate those threats? With the ability to build cities and empires as players, it should be the king or lords duty of that empire to decide whether or not they want to allow safe passage, shelter, and supplies to these people. These cities should be able to be defended in a similar fashion with gaurds and towers, including players as well. If you allow it, it should be clearly marked on your map that this empire promotes illegal activity. There should also be a penalty for that as well. Perhaps something in the form of reduced tax rates, reduces resource gathering and a 24 hour seige window that never closes. It should be very difficult to remain a strong empire and openly betray the innocent. These empires will have to be more subtle with their dealings, thus making them weaker.
Murderers should not be able to own holdings within cities, unless that city is deemed a full-on murderous empire. This will open up attack by any non-murderous empire in the game. Murderers should not be able to bank either, since they can't gain access to a city with a bank unless it's labeled a murderous city amd that city has the appropriate upgrades to have a city bank This bank should be able to be looted if the city is sieged and razed. They can't use gates that take them to innocent locations. This will make their movement a little easier to predict. Without mounts, it will make travelling and sneaking up on people a little harder. Thus protecting the innocent.
There should definitely be stat loss as well. Not just resurrection sickness, but partial stat loss depending on your murder count. Let's not use the five kill murder status. Let's make it three. If you kill three people within a four hour window, let's assume that you meant to do it. You can work two of those counts off each hour. However, if you work up to three, it takes a full eight hours in game to work it off. You will also remain a murderer until your very last count is removed. Which means, you need to play a full twenty-four hours to work it off and become innocent again. If you die as a murderer, you lose 2% of your primary stats (but none of your secondary). So if you have five murder counts, you'll lose 10% of your primary stats. If you have 50 murder counts, it may as well be perma-death, because you will lose 100% of your primary stats. Also, if you are a murderer, you not only lose items from your inventory upon death, but you lose everything that you are carrying whether it is equipped or not.
I have not seen a murder system like the one I've described. I have also not seen a MMO balance 'wolves' and 'sheep' efficiently. While this does not eliminate the ability for murderers to exist or be successful, it certainly makes it very difficult to do so. So difficult, that if you're not careful, you will incur a temp-death on your character and you'll have to start your progression over again. If you have a strong criminal guild and friends to back you, a place to store your goods and a place to buy, sell, and trade, you may be able to hack it. Just remember that your empire could be destroyed in the middle of the night and you may wake up with nothing left. You better have more friends. It shouldn't be easy though. To every murderer, there should be 100 innocents.
I think these ideas will go a long way in allowing a ratio like that. Do you guys have any ideas?
What do you guys think about a detective/tracker type profession that gives general locations of nearby murderers? Even movement will be hard if you have many active trackers around the map. Maybe you'll see 'red' slayer guilds that serve only one purpose, to kill murderers.
Comments
Like others have said here, it will work excactly like Shadowbane did, which is a good thing. In all my time in Shadowbane, the number of times I was randomly ganked while farming mobs could be counted with the fingers in one hand...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Do you know why this is?
Its because with large populations it turns out everyone is/wants to be a wolf, not a sheep.
This is why a sandbox with FFA PVP full loot mechanics without making PKing a considerable risk will always devolve into being either
a. obscure
b. broken
c. online pvp arenas
I know i've been harping on this here for a long time, but i will repeat it.
The secret is in the pudding, and by pudding I mean making the sheep -feel- safe. Give the sheep (that all want to be wolves anyways) a sense of security and you will have a good sandbox. Because if you don't and the sheep find out that they rather be wolves, you will just end up in a pvp arena.
My humble semi-divine opinion is that this can be done by giving people direct control over combat, instead of making it rely on stats. This way the sheep -feels- in control and can not blame the wolf for having sharper fangs if it gets eaten.
Pvp themepark, not sandbox.
What are you basing this on?
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
when you create a game solely based on one thing, you get themepark...wether its pvp or pve.
pvp themeparks just love to call themselves sandboxes these days when true sandboxes have "something for everyone" not just big empty worlds with nothing to do than pvp.
Well, with the addition of player built cities, territory control and meaningful crafting (thanks to item decay), hopefuly a bit more to do than PvP. One can hope...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
After mourning fiasco, dark & light scandal, Darkfall letdown and Mortal Online sham...Im jaded when it comes to no name companies with zero funding making a self proclaimed "sandbox"
Right there with you. 99% skepticism 1% hope. But I just can't bring myself to play another themepark game... hence why not playing SWTOR.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
While the mention of classes removes this as a sandbox in my mind i am getting a kick out of the responses on this thread.
If i could write this in all caps in size 50 font i would but
"Why are people so terrified to lose pixles in a game"
So many people scared of full loot it baffles my mind. Ok i get it if this is a game that has you grinding gear in raids for months and then allows that to be looted...but typically full loot games offer gear that is both easy to aquire and short lived regardless of looting.
Im thinking of Darkfall, an EPIC PVE game that was degraded and wrecked by min/maxer FPS shooter crowd who wanted it all to be an easy pvp arena game. People who complained about the PVE getting in the way of their maxed out character loaded with macros and hacks so they could stomp people in the quickest and easiest way possible. That game had epic pve, old school pve, where you farmed mobs for usefull stuff to feed your other non combat activites in the game. Loot was cheap, easy to get or make, and the gear broke quick or was looted.
You lose the gear anyway, all you have to do is bank every 15min and you never lose anything of real value, and should you get something of high value, again, banking was the answer.
Still, i cant help but laugh at so many people who are still terrified at "losing their hard work" when all they have to do in a full loot game is bank more often to protect that hard earned work.
Back on topic of this game. Reading up on the game on their website....never once is the word sandbox written, it has classes and what appears to be a linear quest system.....oh wait i know, people saw player made cities ect and assume thats sandbox is what happend.
Still looks like an interesting game, but this game is in no way a sandbox, its a themepark with player made cities. Typically when a developer goes the sandbox route, they mention the word when describing the game..
and the quote that fully removes my interest in the game from their overview ont he game is "Like leveling, equipment follows a similar ideology of being fast and easy to setup" Fast and easy...just like every single other themepark out there....sigh...some interesting features though....
If you have to ask that question then you don't understand the concept of value and effort/earning.
It doesn't matter that it's pixels or gold bullion or diamonds or marbles.
It's what those things represent, the value they have to a person and the effort that it takes to obtain them.
You say "pixels" because you want to remove them from their context and force them into another context to devalue them or just show that they have no value.
And if you were to take any virtual item and offer to trade someone their sports car or house they are probably going to say no.
But in the context of the game these items have value. It's like the idea of money. Money only has a value based on the government backing it and how people perceive it.
These items have value because people value the game play and effort it takes to acquire them. Since these items provide benefit in the game they also have value in the game. Take them out of context and they mean nothing. In the context of what people need to do to acquire them they have worth.
Otherwise you undermind your argument. If these pixels have no value then why would anyone want to loot them? They aren't desirable if they have no value. So it wouldn't be a big deal to never have full looting at all as there is no value right? But in the context of the game and the effort to acquire/loot them, what they represent has value.
I'll add that the reason people don't want to just bank things every 15 minutes is that it is making the effort to obtain these items far harder than the game play experience is worth. I would offer that if these items can be banked every 15 minutes then they have very little value to effort and that the full looting isn't necessary as it provides no real benefit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Your right. I Donjt understand that. I play for entertainment not creating value. When i play for a month and pay $15 then get bored and move on, i dont see that $15 as being wasted as i payed for a month of entertainment, once the entertainment had ended i moved on having viewed the transaction as a fair deal.
Also you missed a majority of what i said and focused on one line (as per forum argument rules) Please read the rest of the post which explains why loosing gear in full loot games isnt like losing your wow purple gear that took months of raids to achieve...oh what i just repeated it so no need to read my post again...
You should actually play a full loot game, since it really does seem like your talking about full loots game but what your saying hasnt ever applied to any of the full loot games ive ever played...i play them a lot. People dont loot everything because they can (unless they are proving a point of course) Typically consumable and things that can be used (no matter how low value) go first, since their use is guranteed by the ganker. Then anything of value or stackables, in darkfalls case this was gold enchants or resources (weight permitting on resources)....actual gear was only looted if it fit what they used for seiges or needed. The rest was left on the body for a scavanger or for the returning victem.
And again.. All that stuff i just described in my scenatio could have been saved had the ficticious victem banked it all rather than stay our grinding for more. Banking often is something that people who are terrfied of full loot games NEVER seem to grasp. On top of the fact that gear you farm is isnt valuable...gear you roll out in pvp squads may be and gear you seige in might be...but the average joe leveling stuff isnt rocking out in top end gear...
Anyway i await your response that will highlight one sentance while ignoring the entierty of my post.
This game does have some cool features, But it is too focused on pvp. from what I've read that the focus of crafting will be based around around npcs. with the focus of that being large scale production of items for pvp with a few heavily taxed npc city stations for solo players kinda far down the to do list.
http://fallenthrones.com/forums/showthread.php?48-Regarding-Crafting
The classes are all combat based. whats sandbox about that.
the classess have a linear progression system. they do seem to have a lot of customisation, but they are still linear themepark classes.
While there are many mob encampments in these zones, only a handful could be considered very efficient ones, especially for gaining larges amounts of experience and resources.
You think this is a positive statement? Yes we will have many mobs for people to kill but most will be complete shit. Wow sign me up.
You know, in the real world, African Elephants, hunted by poachers who are in turn hunted by rangers are not all over the place, right?
That is painfully obvious...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
I read your article and fully understand why losing loot isn't like losing your purples. As a point of note, I played Lineage 2 for over 4 years and though it isn't a full loot game, it was, for a while, a game where you could die, drop several valuable items and of course have to start over. So on that count, I'm familiar with losing items of value. You would just accept it and work hard and create/buy more. You didn't cry over spilled milk.
As far as "full loot' I did try darkfall and enjoyed it very much. However, I realized, at least for me, that it was the type of game that I would have to play full out or not at all. Since I don't have the time to be competitive in a game like that I opted for not playing.
I get that one would just hvae to bank it. I get that gear, for the most part, is reasonably easy to get. However, running back, banking and then doing it again so that you have enough gear to "gear yourself up" is what i'm talking about as far as time and value. It's not fun for people to stock up on hordes of gear just so you can lose it and run back and get it and then stock up some more.
I completley understand this point. But it belies your statement about gear being meaningless. If this gear is meaningless then there is no reason to loot it as there is no value. But because players want to loot it then it has value. If a player keeps losing his gear then all he's doing is grinding and crafting to stock up on more gear where the person who is looting, and possibly in a pack, is always winning, always getting gear as a replacement as well as something to sell.
You see? It has value. It is a commodity. and players who dont' like full loot games dont' see the value in constantly restocking their gear just to have it taken again.
In a way it' slike perma death. People who like permadeath games are tied in to a different mentality. they aren't tied into the character so much as the experience of using a character until they can't use it anymore. Other players tend to be tied into a character and they can't quite make the leap to the idea that the charcter itself is meaningless as the character is not what the game is about.
As far as playiing games for fun well "of course". But when I talk about value and time and effort that goes into the fun. Do something long enough that you dont find fun and suddenly it becomes a chore. Players who feel like they are constantly banking gear find it tedious as that's not what they want to be doing. It's becomes a chore. There is no fun for them because they are coming at the game in a completely different way. Their time, their "fun time" is curtailed because they are not making the leap that part of the "fun" is out gearing, collecting, out thinking the other person. for them it's more like polishing a diamond of sorts and the acquisition and slow powering of the character is the fun. All they are going to do is find constant banking of gear and eventually scrambling for more gear to be tedious.
And what's a great laugh is that when character eventually get amazing gear they don't wear it until they are surrounded by allies to protect them. Probably one of the few times when they might not need great gear.
so yes, gear has value. Even if it's easy to come by. If people want to loot it then it has value. If people don't want to lose it, regardless of how easy it is then that sort of ups the value. The value is just more than mere price. It's time and effort and "fun" for them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sovrath, I think we get your point. Though, with your novel-like offerings, I feel that your point may be getting rather vague to a lot of people...
The problem with it is that the gear you have equipped does not get looted in this game. It simply takes damage and can be repaired numerous times until it finally breaks. So yes, you can take your epic purples out and actually use them without having the fear of getting them looted from your corpse. The only reason you'll need to bank more often is to reduce the loss of profit you'll take by waiting far too long and getting killed by someone. I'm sure you understand this. But again, it should be repeated, you will only lose inventory items.
And of course the items have value. Even vendor trash items have value in gold. Perhaps armor and weapons can be broken down or smelted into craftable resources. Cloth turned into bandages. Weeds, herbs, and flowers turned into alchemy potions. So on and so forth. The inventory items are valuable because they can be used to your advantage. Maybe you'll get lucky and happen upon a magic item that was looted in their current haul of hunts. The full loot isn't the issue, it never has been, and never will be. It's the encouragement to kill by most developers. Even if they didn't initially mean it as encouragement.
I feel that with a 3rd person, tab-targetting system with groups, avoiding combat will be a lot easier than you think. It will be the same as AoC or WoW. In fact, it will be similar to any game where you have an enemy. The only difference is that people will have a little more incentive to kill you. being able to see your attacker from a distance and use an invisibility spell or potion could be a life saver. Combat will be more familiar to the average gamer, giving them a better chance to fight back. The character progression is said to be fairly short, meaing there aren't huge gaps in character strength. The weapons and armour will not have massive gaps of strength between them as well. There will be crowd control to help you escape from unhealthy situations. I haven't read anything about how they are going to handle murderers though, and I feel this is a make or break system for them. I have yet to see a PK system that is harsh enough on murderous folk. It's always too easy and the game eventually devolves into a bunch of murderers, murdering each other. If they can avoid that issue that has plagued these games since their inception, then I could see it actually gaining some traction in the mainstream MMO community.
I'm hoping they have some good ideas.
It doesn't look promising. it sounds promising, there is a distinct difference. there are no screenshots or videos of the game AFAIK, all it is is some some design text and some concept art (which is very bad).
anyone can make a site and say they are making the best game ever with no evidence. However there are other indy games in development which actually have screenshots and videos, only these are actually worth any thought/discussion imo. and even those which evidence of an actual game still can end up being vapourware.
check out lifeisfeudal.com tbh they actually have a tech demo vid, and if they ever complete the game it will be fucking amazing.
My blog:
That's probably true. I just wanted to respond to the idea that there is a reason why some people have issues with looting and saying that It's "just pixels" really doesnt' address the concern.
After all, if these were just pixels we wouldn't be playing these games. These games have enjoyment and can inspire the best and worst in people.
I actually like the idea that gear breaks down. I wish more games had this.
In any case, I hope they do incorporate some great ideas as it's nice to see different types of games on the horizon.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Agreed. Even screenshots are often missleading and sometimes manipulated.
There are many indie MMOs that sounds promising but most of them sadly suck if they ever comes out.
And a game often changes during development, if you read the initial PC gamer article about WAR and how the game should be you don't recognize much with what actually released, and WAR was a high budget AAA MMO...
Still, good luck to the devs, I hope you can deliver.
Full loot PvP + Permadeath = solution
If you Pk one ppl and somebody else kills you in the next 8 hours PERMADEATH, Risk / Reward.....
ok, It doesnt need to be so harsh but something that makes the sheep safe and at same time give the options to Pvpers/griefers do their stuff at a very high risk.
Sorry but I had to bump your post simply for the highlighted bit. Good laugh.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Well, I read his entire post, thanks to you because I only skimmed the thread.
And I am in total agreement with his point. I want a very diverse game world, and community. I want a game that's got all sorts of player types. Not because I want to play all those types, but because I want to experience "living" in such a diverse world.
The point on thieves goes for PKers too. You have to have some way to keep every Tom, Dick, and Harry from playing them to the point of driving other players out. And you have to allow the other players a satisfaction when they do become a victim. They have to be more than simply compensated. They have to know that the thief or PKer is at risk for what they did to them, a risk of real loss, and to somehow actively pursue the results of that risk (directly or indirectly).
And that "justice" has to work without loopholes or escape clauses.
Once upon a time....
While that is a solution, I'm not so sure it's the best one. It would definitely give murderers some pause before making a decision that could render their character useless.
I have some ideas.
Any sandboxer worth their salt knows about the allignment system. They know about 'murderer towns' or 'lawless towns'. They know about stat loss or jail time. Whether we've partaken in criminal exploits or not, we are well aware of what the punishments are in most sandboxes.
I feel that if you make all NPC cities, 'kill on sight' for murderers, that it would help. This is pretty standard in sandboxes though. I feel that there should also be roaming gaurd patrols as well. Not just randomly out in the wilderness, but within a moderate vicinity of the protected city. Darkfall had some towers that were somewhat effective at times, and I feel that this should be included as well. What I don't want to see are just loads of static gaurds or 'insta-kill' gaurds popping out of thin air. Let's make it more like a maze for a criminal to get anywhere near a NPC city at all. We already know that they've stated that these cities will be safe zones anyways.
Let's also do what almost all other sandbox MMO's don't do, eliminate 'lawless' cities. There should be no NPC cities that allow safe harbor for criminals. Don't you think we as players, or the factions in the game, would eliminate those threats? With the ability to build cities and empires as players, it should be the king or lords duty of that empire to decide whether or not they want to allow safe passage, shelter, and supplies to these people. These cities should be able to be defended in a similar fashion with gaurds and towers, including players as well. If you allow it, it should be clearly marked on your map that this empire promotes illegal activity. There should also be a penalty for that as well. Perhaps something in the form of reduced tax rates, reduces resource gathering and a 24 hour seige window that never closes. It should be very difficult to remain a strong empire and openly betray the innocent. These empires will have to be more subtle with their dealings, thus making them weaker.
Murderers should not be able to own holdings within cities, unless that city is deemed a full-on murderous empire. This will open up attack by any non-murderous empire in the game. Murderers should not be able to bank either, since they can't gain access to a city with a bank unless it's labeled a murderous city amd that city has the appropriate upgrades to have a city bank This bank should be able to be looted if the city is sieged and razed. They can't use gates that take them to innocent locations. This will make their movement a little easier to predict. Without mounts, it will make travelling and sneaking up on people a little harder. Thus protecting the innocent.
There should definitely be stat loss as well. Not just resurrection sickness, but partial stat loss depending on your murder count. Let's not use the five kill murder status. Let's make it three. If you kill three people within a four hour window, let's assume that you meant to do it. You can work two of those counts off each hour. However, if you work up to three, it takes a full eight hours in game to work it off. You will also remain a murderer until your very last count is removed. Which means, you need to play a full twenty-four hours to work it off and become innocent again. If you die as a murderer, you lose 2% of your primary stats (but none of your secondary). So if you have five murder counts, you'll lose 10% of your primary stats. If you have 50 murder counts, it may as well be perma-death, because you will lose 100% of your primary stats. Also, if you are a murderer, you not only lose items from your inventory upon death, but you lose everything that you are carrying whether it is equipped or not.
I have not seen a murder system like the one I've described. I have also not seen a MMO balance 'wolves' and 'sheep' efficiently. While this does not eliminate the ability for murderers to exist or be successful, it certainly makes it very difficult to do so. So difficult, that if you're not careful, you will incur a temp-death on your character and you'll have to start your progression over again. If you have a strong criminal guild and friends to back you, a place to store your goods and a place to buy, sell, and trade, you may be able to hack it. Just remember that your empire could be destroyed in the middle of the night and you may wake up with nothing left. You better have more friends. It shouldn't be easy though. To every murderer, there should be 100 innocents.
I think these ideas will go a long way in allowing a ratio like that. Do you guys have any ideas?
What do you guys think about a detective/tracker type profession that gives general locations of nearby murderers? Even movement will be hard if you have many active trackers around the map. Maybe you'll see 'red' slayer guilds that serve only one purpose, to kill murderers.