if all mmo's as u call them today fail who is gonna wanna put money into a genre where most games fail epicly? Im sorry but a successful mmo weather your cup of tea or not is always good for the mmo genre.
It means other companies maybe bathesda, maybe some other big name company that doesnt do mmo's will put there toe on the water and make there form of an mmo.
u dont have to like tor , Thats cool , i do but thats me., The fact is if every game u dont like failed , we wouldnt have mmo's
Sure eq and eve, uo and stuff started it but what got the big companies into mmo;s was blizzard with wow success.
maybe some day a company will make that cross hybrid mmorpg,fps,fighter game ua ll want so bad,
I dont care what style game u like the success ofa big budget mmo is great for the genre as a whole. If it means some sandparky guy decides to make this mindblowing sandbox/ themepark hybrid and some huge company like ea helps foot the bill thats always good.
If mmo's taht are modern as u call thema ll failed , ud see more and more companies fleeing the marketplace and all ud have is a bunch of watered down free 2 play titles left.
Seriously. The OP has blinders on, thats all. He is seeing this game from a single persective, the MMO mechanics side. He sees nothing more than that, and as a result, he believes that is all there is to SWTOR. It simply is not reality though, short sited and narrowed vision. And of course when you formulate an argument based off such limited insite, you get this stuff he posted here.
This game is only bad for the genre if his reality was all SWTOR brought to the genre. You can argue each individual mechanical aspect of the games functionality all you want, that isnt what SWTOR brings to the genre, that just happens to be all the OP can see of it. I'm sorry for his lack of vision, honestly I am.
EDIT: Oh and to the dude above me, SWTOR is an MMORPG game, not an MMO. And thank you for so eliquently proving my point.
Can you in anny shape or form effect others in SW:Tor? and by effect I mean, take/destyory thier LANDS/Planets,ITEMS, SHIPS etc??
Can you in anny shape or form effect the game world? can you build any structures, Counstruct a deathstar, Build a colany etc?
Can you in anny shape or form cunduct any Politics that effect other players? and by this I mean block off trade, Start wars that damage others, do espionage on other players??
Can you travel freely acrross the world? that means go anywere, and not follow a zone cunstructed Quest chain to a max level??
Can you effect annything by doing PVP? dose anything change or is the only effect you have when you fight other players that you get accesses to New gear??
To me SW:TOR is about one thing getting GEAR for YOU and your COMPANIONS?? or are there anything ells you can effect or change?
You sire is the one that have narrowed vison.. Because you are under the Assumption that Getting Gear and leveling is the only thing that an MMORPG should be about...
Come try EVE for 6 months and you will come to understand that MMOS can be so much more then a grind for items...
Yes to bad that their Gear addiction has turned MMOS into Theampark Slotmachines... At one point they were about something ells.. but as mentioned before those days are long gone.. probably never to be seen again..
You know OP that all sounds nice and stuff but you have one flaw in your logic
Its not like other MMOs werent there yet they just didnt make enough cash for the big companys to care about them its obvious games like WOW/Rift/SWOTOR is what makes the big cash thats why they make more of this games so if SWOTOR would fail now i just dont see anyone beeing willing to spend big money on any kind of MMO anymore.
To phrase it in you Hot dog/Burger example "ppls want dogs the burger places just didnt make enough money couse everyone wanted dogs"
So you have a product that sells good (dogs) and one that doesnt (Hamburger) onlly couse one dog shop might fail doesnt mean ppls would start building Hamburger places couse they know already they will not make enough money with it.
They might even consider leaving the fast food (MMOs) alone all together and rather spend there money in something else.
Investors will continue to fail to realize that they could be making more money with something new. Just like somebody once had the temerity to create a hamburger stand when everyone loved hot dogs, they became successful. Nobody will take that plunge anymore.
Nobody will create tacos, or seafood, or chinese takeout. Only hamburgers. And it is SOLELY because of the selfishness of the fanboys, who cannot concede even for a moment that they DO have options for their playstyle, and that it is high time other people in the city of Progress had a turn at something shiny, tasty and new.
So yes, haters are gonna hate. Because the MMORPG industry has proven to be the only industry where consumers seem to defy logic by choosing to reject the opportuntiy for variety and choices, and instead imbracing the factory-assembled 'checklist of fun' that is being conveyed out the door again and again.
Unacceptable.
Main issue is investors don't play MMO but drives expansive cars and have sex with hot grirls that are even more clueless about MMOS. (At least most of them
Originally posted by pierth
OP, you can't teach people to have higher standards.
I'll take this analogy.
My neighbor, a French pastry chef, opened a bakery in a North American city.
As you can guess he started making French fine pastry and well most of the people told them it was not so bad but they prefer you know classic north american stuff.
Thing is it takes time to educate people and change their habits. When your mouth is used to be assaulted by sugar you won't even notice the subtle aroma in more delicate food.
Originally posted by InFaVilla Variations can be of different magnitude. The current variation among the AAA mmorpgs is very small if compare to other genres such as Single Player RPGs and Adventure games. We still have still TSW, Archage and GW2 that may offer variation of a significantly higher magnitude, but if they all fail, we will be reaching a dark age of very narrow variation.
That's just how the world works. New products come into existence, and then they are tested to see if they are viable or not. It's no good to create something that is wildly different from everything else if it's cr@p and nobody wants it.
The only thing necessary for new things to be created in the muhmorpahguh industry is that some existing things be successful. Which things aren't as important as just having something be successful. Things were very bleak until Rift came out. Like them or hate them, Rift and SWToR are the reasons that more people are looking at the industry and are willing to invest.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Investors will continue to fail to realize that they could be making more money with something new. Just like somebody once had the temerity to create a hamburger stand when everyone loved hot dogs, they became successful. Nobody will take that plunge anymore.
Nobody will create tacos, or seafood, or chinese takeout. Only hamburgers. And it is SOLELY because of the selfishness of the fanboys, who cannot concede even for a moment that they DO have options for their playstyle, and that it is high time other people in the city of Progress had a turn at something shiny, tasty and new.
So yes, haters are gonna hate. Because the MMORPG industry has proven to be the only industry where consumers seem to defy logic by choosing to reject the opportuntiy for variety and choices, and instead imbracing the factory-assembled 'checklist of fun' that is being conveyed out the door again and again.
Unacceptable.
Main issue is investors don't play MMO but drives expansive cars and have sex with hot grirls that are even more clueless about MMOS. (At least most of them
Originally posted by pierth
OP, you can't teach people to have higher standards.
I'll take this analogy.
My neighbor, a French pastry chef, opened a bakery in a North American city.
As you can guess he started making French fine pastry and well most of the people told them it was not so bad but they prefer you know classic north american stuff.
Thing is it takes time to educate people and change their habits. When your mouth is used to be assaulted by sugar you won't even notice the subtle aroma in more delicate food.
So folks that play games for their PVE fix are all of a sudden gonna wanna do open world PVP, or utilize player generated PVE vs the Dev created stuff.
I HIGHLY doubt that is going to happen.
Once again the servers in TOR show where the playerbase is.....PVE servers. Sandboxes dont have a prayer vs a themepark when it comes to PVE, and it would be nice if you guys would realize it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Any succesfull MMO is good for the industry as it convinces people to take massive financial risks to build them...
With a massive failure of a game with the visibility of SWTOR you would see a pretty significant reduction in the number of projects being funded which would all but eliminate any posibility of the sandbox grail you seek.
With large amounts of potential profits you could attract the attention of a large investor or publisher willing to finance a well thought out MMO with a sandbox design. There are several MMO's in the pipe right now that could potentially fit the bill.
If however SWTOR were to fail spectacularly the funding for many of those projects would be scaled back resulting in less than complete games. These games tend not to do very well and sandboxes with their heavy reliance on perfect and complex mechanics to let players shape the world and game systems tend to get released in an all but unplayable state when rushed.
If you want innovation in the MMO market you should cheer each sucess as it only grows the market and draws in hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of previously non MMO gamers to the genre. Casual MMO's like WoW or SWTOR help to introduce people to the genre and removes alot of the stigma attached to it as a dark corner of gaming.
SWTOR may not be your personal prefrence in game design, but it is a wonderful story driven casual game that is helping to grow the market. I can't count the number of players I've grouped with to whom this is their first MMO.
My neighbor, a French pastry chef, opened a bakery in a North American city.
As you can guess he started making French fine pastry and well most of the people told them it was not so bad but they prefer you know classic north american stuff.
Thing is it takes time to educate people and change their habits. When your mouth is used to be assaulted by sugar you won't even notice the subtle aroma in more delicate food.
Deewe you are becoming my favorite person here. I've used a simular analogy, but I think the gaming industry is becoming more and more like the movie/Hollywood industry. We can all think of movies that got high ratings that we thought were absolute piles of crap. Its marketing. If the minority of people *care* about these issues like we do, why waste your time trying to make them happy when you can make more money with a lower quality product?
Just relax, TOR is not a bad game but I kinda doubt that it will keep those players for more than a few months the way it is made.
Other MMOs that use different mechanics are on the way and I think a few of them will seel very well.
I just don´t see TOR being able to go head on head Vs GW2 and Class 4. TOR is just too much like a single player game and those are very fun for a while but usually lose it's magic when you max out 2 characters.Adding Wow style raiding to the concept just ain´t enough.
It is far more important that a different game succeds than a game like TOR fails, the publishers needs proof that other types of games can sell well, not that current style MMOs womt.
The only thing TORs failure would tell investors would be that the genre isn´t worth the risk, and that would be bad, M'OKAY?
I have to agree with this post actually. Looking at my gaming history, its unusual that I am playing SWTOR and enjoying it. However Star Wars was the first film I had ever seen back in the 70's and the lore is something that has added a lot of weight to this game.
There is a big HOWEVER though. I am playing the game like a single player game and once I get through the main storyline for 2-3 characters I wont stick around at all.
The only way I can describe it, is like going to a real life theme park and its the best one I have ever gone to. So I spending most of the time running between all the new rides but once I have tried them all I may return once a year.
I try not to think what this game could have been, as its too depressing. A sandbox Star Wars game would kill my RL anyway.
I personally feel that they should have individual storylines up to level 10 and then you decide which side you join... They could have made it so much more sexy.
Completely agree OP. Of course many will simply not comprehend your point and simply dismiss you as being a hater. Hell, half of them wont read past the first 142 characters.
I guess the big hope is that publishers and developers start thinking 'hmm that space really is well and truly saturated....we are going to have to risk trying something different (gasp) if we wan't to reap the epic rewards'.
However I think SWTOR making a ton of cash is a good thing because investors will look at the industry favourably as they can see how much money it can generate.
What we need now is a company to realise a gap in the market and make a sandbox AAA that will be a massive success, then I guess we will see a ton of them come out.
If Bioware even went 20% sandbox, this game could have been epic.
They just played it very very very safe with SWTOR
It is kind of encouraging that it looks like people are risking somehwat different approaches. The Secret World, Guild Wars II, even Terra with its action orientated combat. All seem fairly imminent (though Funcom aren't hyping TSW yet).
Investors are the kind of people that will invest on guaranteed successes rather than risky adventures. They already aren't funding sandboxes or whatever you're fancying this moment. They only want cash and gaurenteed returns.
Success or failure of SW:TOR means NOTHING to the sandbox mmo community. That ship has sailed since NGE and won't return for another 10+ years. And when it does return, it won't be from big investors/publishers like EA. It'll be a CCP like studio.
Investors are the kind of people that will invest on guaranteed successes rather than risky adventures. They already aren't funding sandboxes or whatever you're fancying this moment. They only want cash and gaurenteed returns.
Success or failure of SW:TOR means NOTHING to the sandbox mmo community. That ship has sailed since NGE and won't return for another 10+ years. And when it does return, it won't be from big investors/publishers like EA. It'll be a CCP like studio.
I would say that ship sailed the second SWG launched.
They put a ton of money into that game, and it crashed n burned. Anyone paying attention when NDA broke knew how screwed up things were. Investors see the SW name, with plenty of backing, and yet it failed.
Personally I dont think companies should release a game without some substantial PVE content for the folks that enjoy it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Comments
if all mmo's as u call them today fail who is gonna wanna put money into a genre where most games fail epicly? Im sorry but a successful mmo weather your cup of tea or not is always good for the mmo genre.
It means other companies maybe bathesda, maybe some other big name company that doesnt do mmo's will put there toe on the water and make there form of an mmo.
u dont have to like tor , Thats cool , i do but thats me., The fact is if every game u dont like failed , we wouldnt have mmo's
Sure eq and eve, uo and stuff started it but what got the big companies into mmo;s was blizzard with wow success.
maybe some day a company will make that cross hybrid mmorpg,fps,fighter game ua ll want so bad,
I dont care what style game u like the success ofa big budget mmo is great for the genre as a whole. If it means some sandparky guy decides to make this mindblowing sandbox/ themepark hybrid and some huge company like ea helps foot the bill thats always good.
If mmo's taht are modern as u call thema ll failed , ud see more and more companies fleeing the marketplace and all ud have is a bunch of watered down free 2 play titles left.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Can you in anny shape or form effect others in SW:Tor? and by effect I mean, take/destyory thier LANDS/Planets,ITEMS, SHIPS etc??
Can you in anny shape or form effect the game world? can you build any structures, Counstruct a deathstar, Build a colany etc?
Can you in anny shape or form cunduct any Politics that effect other players? and by this I mean block off trade, Start wars that damage others, do espionage on other players??
Can you travel freely acrross the world? that means go anywere, and not follow a zone cunstructed Quest chain to a max level??
Can you effect annything by doing PVP? dose anything change or is the only effect you have when you fight other players that you get accesses to New gear??
To me SW:TOR is about one thing getting GEAR for YOU and your COMPANIONS?? or are there anything ells you can effect or change?
You sire is the one that have narrowed vison.. Because you are under the Assumption that Getting Gear and leveling is the only thing that an MMORPG should be about...
Come try EVE for 6 months and you will come to understand that MMOS can be so much more then a grind for items...
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Yes to bad that their Gear addiction has turned MMOS into Theampark Slotmachines... At one point they were about something ells.. but as mentioned before those days are long gone.. probably never to be seen again..
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
To think that a failing Star Wars game would bring any new investor spending 200 mil $ on a completely untried new approach is simply too naive.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
You know OP that all sounds nice and stuff but you have one flaw in your logic
Its not like other MMOs werent there yet they just didnt make enough cash for the big companys to care about them its obvious games like WOW/Rift/SWOTOR is what makes the big cash thats why they make more of this games so if SWOTOR would fail now i just dont see anyone beeing willing to spend big money on any kind of MMO anymore.
To phrase it in you Hot dog/Burger example "ppls want dogs the burger places just didnt make enough money couse everyone wanted dogs"
So you have a product that sells good (dogs) and one that doesnt (Hamburger) onlly couse one dog shop might fail doesnt mean ppls would start building Hamburger places couse they know already they will not make enough money with it.
They might even consider leaving the fast food (MMOs) alone all together and rather spend there money in something else.
Main issue is investors don't play MMO but drives expansive cars and have sex with hot grirls that are even more clueless about MMOS. (At least most of them
I'll take this analogy.
My neighbor, a French pastry chef, opened a bakery in a North American city.
As you can guess he started making French fine pastry and well most of the people told them it was not so bad but they prefer you know classic north american stuff.
Thing is it takes time to educate people and change their habits. When your mouth is used to be assaulted by sugar you won't even notice the subtle aroma in more delicate food.
That's just how the world works. New products come into existence, and then they are tested to see if they are viable or not. It's no good to create something that is wildly different from everything else if it's cr@p and nobody wants it.
The only thing necessary for new things to be created in the muhmorpahguh industry is that some existing things be successful. Which things aren't as important as just having something be successful. Things were very bleak until Rift came out. Like them or hate them, Rift and SWToR are the reasons that more people are looking at the industry and are willing to invest.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
So folks that play games for their PVE fix are all of a sudden gonna wanna do open world PVP, or utilize player generated PVE vs the Dev created stuff.
I HIGHLY doubt that is going to happen.
Once again the servers in TOR show where the playerbase is.....PVE servers. Sandboxes dont have a prayer vs a themepark when it comes to PVE, and it would be nice if you guys would realize it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Any succesfull MMO is good for the industry as it convinces people to take massive financial risks to build them...
With a massive failure of a game with the visibility of SWTOR you would see a pretty significant reduction in the number of projects being funded which would all but eliminate any posibility of the sandbox grail you seek.
With large amounts of potential profits you could attract the attention of a large investor or publisher willing to finance a well thought out MMO with a sandbox design. There are several MMO's in the pipe right now that could potentially fit the bill.
If however SWTOR were to fail spectacularly the funding for many of those projects would be scaled back resulting in less than complete games. These games tend not to do very well and sandboxes with their heavy reliance on perfect and complex mechanics to let players shape the world and game systems tend to get released in an all but unplayable state when rushed.
If you want innovation in the MMO market you should cheer each sucess as it only grows the market and draws in hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of previously non MMO gamers to the genre. Casual MMO's like WoW or SWTOR help to introduce people to the genre and removes alot of the stigma attached to it as a dark corner of gaming.
SWTOR may not be your personal prefrence in game design, but it is a wonderful story driven casual game that is helping to grow the market. I can't count the number of players I've grouped with to whom this is their first MMO.
If the game gets balanced and a better end game/ PvP added it will rock. My guess is people are subscribed to level up alts.
Deewe you are becoming my favorite person here. I've used a simular analogy, but I think the gaming industry is becoming more and more like the movie/Hollywood industry. We can all think of movies that got high ratings that we thought were absolute piles of crap. Its marketing. If the minority of people *care* about these issues like we do, why waste your time trying to make them happy when you can make more money with a lower quality product?
I'm not having fun cause your having fun. So you should stop having fun. If I can't have fun nobody can.
I have to agree with this post actually. Looking at my gaming history, its unusual that I am playing SWTOR and enjoying it. However Star Wars was the first film I had ever seen back in the 70's and the lore is something that has added a lot of weight to this game.
There is a big HOWEVER though. I am playing the game like a single player game and once I get through the main storyline for 2-3 characters I wont stick around at all.
The only way I can describe it, is like going to a real life theme park and its the best one I have ever gone to. So I spending most of the time running between all the new rides but once I have tried them all I may return once a year.
I try not to think what this game could have been, as its too depressing. A sandbox Star Wars game would kill my RL anyway.
I personally feel that they should have individual storylines up to level 10 and then you decide which side you join... They could have made it so much more sexy.
But hey, its a great single player game
Completely agree OP. Of course many will simply not comprehend your point and simply dismiss you as being a hater. Hell, half of them wont read past the first 142 characters.
I guess the big hope is that publishers and developers start thinking 'hmm that space really is well and truly saturated....we are going to have to risk trying something different (gasp) if we wan't to reap the epic rewards'.
@ the last post. Cant agree more.
However I think SWTOR making a ton of cash is a good thing because investors will look at the industry favourably as they can see how much money it can generate.
What we need now is a company to realise a gap in the market and make a sandbox AAA that will be a massive success, then I guess we will see a ton of them come out.
If Bioware even went 20% sandbox, this game could have been epic.
They just played it very very very safe with SWTOR
It is kind of encouraging that it looks like people are risking somehwat different approaches. The Secret World, Guild Wars II, even Terra with its action orientated combat. All seem fairly imminent (though Funcom aren't hyping TSW yet).
Investors are the kind of people that will invest on guaranteed successes rather than risky adventures. They already aren't funding sandboxes or whatever you're fancying this moment. They only want cash and gaurenteed returns.
Success or failure of SW:TOR means NOTHING to the sandbox mmo community. That ship has sailed since NGE and won't return for another 10+ years. And when it does return, it won't be from big investors/publishers like EA. It'll be a CCP like studio.
I would say that ship sailed the second SWG launched.
They put a ton of money into that game, and it crashed n burned. Anyone paying attention when NDA broke knew how screwed up things were. Investors see the SW name, with plenty of backing, and yet it failed.
Personally I dont think companies should release a game without some substantial PVE content for the folks that enjoy it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.