You have a goal - you reach it - you go for the next goal.
I can see why there would be a specific pattern to this, thus the thread doesnt make sense to me.
What I personally despise is the treatmil game. A game where you work hard just to stay at the point you already are. Such as permanent item destruction - you have to replace your items again and again because they get destroyed over time.
Yet many people love this approach. Thats why Tetris is so popular.
The biggest 'carrot' that sticks the longest is always make some char (whether it is the player char or NPC) relatable to the player.
Doesn't matter what the game is afterwards, once you have that hook, that player is gonna stick with your game until some sort of resolution with that char is received. A good book will grab you by the end of page 1 and never let you go. Video games are of similar mould.
Think about Aeris in FF7, yeah, how many players didn't finish FF7 after Chapter 1?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I am confused, but what do you all define as being this "Carrot on a Stick"?
it logically makes no sense for people to complain about it, because there is no carrot on a stick (metaphorically speaking). Since nobody forces you to run after the carrot. A horse runs after the carrot because it likes the carrot. But what is this carrot in terms of the metaphor? There isn't any, when you think about it. In WoW if I don't like Raiding, will I still raid for RAID gear? If so, why? Unless deep down inside I enjoy raiding. Else wise I would go play some other activity that I like such as PvP or questing. Were is this carrot that say I need to Raid?
again,,, all this stuff we complain about is only in our head. We just don't see it that way.
People are achievement junkies, thats why they are in everything from Steam to MMOs to xbox, etc. We are being treated like pidgeons pecking in the right places for a reward that sustains us long enough to continue pecking.
I guess I have a bit of cynicism toward that sort of "achievement". I'm no small part an "acheiver" type player, but I neither see value in those "steam-type" acheivements(you shot 1000 guys with X gun! Yay!), nor am I the type that will run raids over and over and over again to get the absolute top-notch soon to be rendered obsolete epeen gear of nastiness.
Most of my favorite acheivements have been self-made... like(in LotRO) coming straight out of the tutorial and trying to make it to Rivendell without dying.
I think what I'm going to start doing from now on is asking myself if I'm actually having fun every 20 minutes or so.
It is the best bet...I learned my leasons in the past.. The Jedi grind ..The old WoW PvP grind ... for what? At this point , many people don't want to grind to max level without some assurances of a fun endgame. Who can blame them? You do the grind , and next thing you know they remove the grind right after you complete it (that's me twice) and start giving it all away.
Play for fun and fun only
I started asking myself that a few years ago. Am I having fun right now? It seems so simple but MMOs are designed to make you not want to ask that question. The fun is always right around the corner. The fun will happen after I get that next piece of gear. The fun will be riding around on that new mount. It reminds me of this that someone posted here awhile back...
I started asking myself that a few years ago. Am I having fun right now? It seems so simple but MMOs are designed to make you not want to ask that question. The fun is always right around the corner. The fun will happen after I get that next piece of gear. The fun will be riding around on that new mount. It reminds me of this that someone posted here awhile back...
Methinx that's a REALLY important question to ask yourself. After all, getting better gear is just a constant game of offsets. Your gear is better, but the mobs will be more powerful, too. If a game can't steer you away from that cycle, or at least keep you from thinking about it, everything you do will just feel like grind.
IMO, modern games do alot better job of that. I've never felt more like I was being led(carrot-stick) than when I tried EQ for the first time, which is a bit ironic, because most games since have blatantly called attention to it by prominently displaying yours and mobs levels. Despite a more vague "conning" system, I still felt like, more than ever, that I had to grind on easy mobs to "turn those red mobs white"...
It's pretty common practice to label most MMO goals as "a carrot on a stick", but I recently came to fully understand why this is so bad. I found myself chasing the carrot, so to speak, because I imagined that I'd be having more fun once I got it. The truth is... I'm not. Once I get the carrot, there's just another one. I somehow keep talking myself into playing more on the prospect of future fun. That future is just a hologram, and the problem is that I never seem to be having fun in the present. Isn't that the point of video games... to have fun right now? School and work are for delayed pleasure.
At some point, the mentality has changed from: I'm going to play to have fun. To: I just need to get this item, or achieve this, and then I can have fun. Is it just me, or is that kind of messed up? You're taking time away from your busy life just to be even busier in a different one. I think what I'm going to start doing from now on is asking myself if I'm actually having fun every 20 minutes or so. If I can't honestly answer 'yes', then I'm not going to keep playing. If everyone adopted this policy, then developers and publishers may have to rethink their game design.
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
I am confused, but what do you all define as being this "Carrot on a Stick"?
it logically makes no sense for people to complain about it, because there is no carrot on a stick (metaphorically speaking). Since nobody forces you to run after the carrot. A horse runs after the carrot because it likes the carrot. But what is this carrot in terms of the metaphor? There isn't any, when you think about it. In WoW if I don't like Raiding, will I still raid for RAID gear? If so, why? Unless deep down inside I enjoy raiding. Else wise I would go play some other activity that I like such as PvP or questing. Were is this carrot that say I need to Raid?
again,,, all this stuff we complain about is only in our head. We just don't see it that way.
I think you answered your own question. The donkey wants the carrot. Same with the players. We want the gear, or level, or whatever. However, the issue is that achieving those things isn't necessarily fun, nor is it really that fulfilling if you manage to achieve those things, because once you get them, there is always something over the next hill to keep you trudging along.
I'm not saying that no one enjoys these activities, but it's evident that a great number of players aren't very satisfied with the current setup. I think the focus of the games has changed to the goal, rather then the experience. That's where the metaphor comes in. Players are conditioned to keep the eye on the carrot.
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
I wonder though, given that RPGs are about character skills and not player mastery, is it really possible to play them for a long time if you are not a casual? Does what progression system or setting you use really matter? Even in a great sandbox can you ever get passed the fact that a player's own talents aren't the focal point of the game? RTS games focus on player skill. That's why you can play the same ostensibly short game over and over. Same for FPS or LoL style games.
Playing a raid in WoW they don't really change as you repeat them. The difference in experience in 10 games of SoaSE is contains a fundamentally larger range compared to 10 of the same raid in WoW, even if you use the same map.
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
I wonder though, given that RPGs are about character skills and not player mastery, is it really possible to play them for a long time if you are not a casual? Does what progression system or setting you use really matter? Even in a great sandbox can you ever get passed the fact that a player's own talents aren't the focal point of the game? RTS games focus on player skill. That's why you can play the same ostensibly short game over and over. Same for FPS or LoL style games.
Playing a raid in WoW they don't really change as you repeat them. The difference in experience in 10 games of SoaSE is contains a fundamentally larger range compared to 10 of the same raid in WoW, even if you use the same map.
That kind of goes along with my opinion that if an MMO must have an endgame, then make it PvP-based, so that it's more dynamic. That's along same lines of why online FPS's are so popular. Each little instanced game is different becuae of the human variable. At this point it comes down to personal preference. Personally, I find that games like MW/BF or even the BGs to get really repetitive pretty quickly. I think that competition can drive motivation just as well as the carrot, but if I feel like I'm just going through the motions either way, then I get burnt out.
I think part of my problem with BGs is that it doesn't last very long. They take place on pretty small maps, have simple objectives, and are over quickly. It's just rinse and repeat at that point. I'm kind of looking foward to the GW2 WvWvW approach. The two-week long battles in a much bigger area with more objectives seems more appealing. Hoenstly, there are a lot of things I'm looking forward to about that game. I didn't pay it much attention at all until a month or so ago.. and I'm practically a fanboi now. lol
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
I wonder though, given that RPGs are about character skills and not player mastery, is it really possible to play them for a long time if you are not a casual? Does what progression system or setting you use really matter? Even in a great sandbox can you ever get passed the fact that a player's own talents aren't the focal point of the game? RTS games focus on player skill. That's why you can play the same ostensibly short game over and over. Same for FPS or LoL style games.
Playing a raid in WoW they don't really change as you repeat them. The difference in experience in 10 games of SoaSE is contains a fundamentally larger range compared to 10 of the same raid in WoW, even if you use the same map.
That kind of goes along with my opinion that if an MMO must have an endgame, then make it PvP-based, so that it's more dynamic. That's along same lines of why online FPS's are so popular. Each little instanced game is different becuae of the human variable. At this point it comes down to personal preference. Personally, I find that games like MW/BF or even the BGs to get really repetitive pretty quickly. I think that competition can drive motivation just as well as the carrot, but if I feel like I'm just going through the motions either way, then I get burnt out.
I think part of my problem with BGs is that it doesn't last very long. They take place on pretty small maps, have simple objectives, and are over quickly. It's just rinse and repeat at that point. I'm kind of looking foward to the GW2 WvWvW approach. The two-week long battles in a much bigger area with more objectives seems more appealing. Hoenstly, there are a lot of things I'm looking forward to about that game. I didn't pay it much attention at all until a month or so ago.. and I'm practically a fanboi now. lol
I am so excited about GW2 as well.
I think MMOs can't be PvP based in the 1v1 sense because again, character skill. They should be strategical PvP, although in my game I want it to be purely PvE. Just, not static bullshit like WoW.
I think MMOs can't be PvP based in the 1v1 sense because again, character skill. They should be strategical PvP, although in my game I want it to be purely PvE. Just, not static bullshit like WoW.
Yeah, GW2 is quite a bit different than the ideal game that I had in mind, however they seem to have pretty good reasoning behind all of their decisions, and the team really seems to care about making a quality game. It's not just pumped out for a profit, like some games. Whether or not it has all the features that I'd want in an MMO, it still looks like a lot of fun, and there are a lot of really good ideas put into it.
Other than B2P, this is a normal MMO with the usual buzzwords added.
They have now 10 instead of just 8 abilities, and they want to go for quality instead of quantity with the abilities; thats an improvement of sorts. But I'm used to have a much larger array of abilities, and have macros that can automatize things.
They removed healers completely which I, as a healer player, cannot find any fun.
They finally have a global world that is actually global and you can meet other players there. A standard feature present in everything I would call MMO. Yay.
They have races, but seriously none I would want to play in the first place, so meh.
And then theres these buzzwords such as dynamic events. Meh. Etc.
All in all I dont see why I shouldnt be bored with GW2 after 3 days just like I was bored with GW1 after 3 days.
Other than B2P, this is a normal MMO with the usual buzzwords added.
They have now 10 instead of just 8 abilities, and they want to go for quality instead of quantity with the abilities; thats an improvement of sorts. But I'm used to have a much larger array of abilities, and have macros that can automatize things.
They removed healers completely which I, as a healer player, cannot find any fun.
They finally have a global world that is actually global and you can meet other players there. A standard feature present in everything I would call MMO. Yay.
They have races, but seriously none I would want to play in the first place, so meh.
And then theres these buzzwords such as dynamic events. Meh. Etc.
All in all I dont see why I shouldnt be bored with GW2 after 3 days just like I was bored with GW1 after 3 days.
Guild Wars 2 certainly isn't for everyone. As far as it being special, I think you answered your own question by listing a few of its features that set it apart, plus there are many other reasons why it's different. I think whether or not you like those changes is a different subject. No one is forcing you play; if you like the WoW/Rift/SWTOR type games, then, by all means, stay there. For many people, this game seems to bring a lot to the table. As I mentioned, I really had no interest in it until recently. In fact, its hype kind of irritated me, as hype generally does. I guess not the hype so much as the bloodthirsty fanboys that often accompany it. But once I actually started researching the game, I began to get excited about it. Here is a small list of what I find to be special about the game.
1. The art direction. This game looks amazing, both from an artistic stand point and technical. The concept art is quite good, and the game is filled with little details that give it a lot of personality. In fact, it's already won several awards, and has a renowned art team.
2. Dynamic events. I, like many, many other gamers are pretty sick of standard quests. In fact, I never liked them. That's the main reason that I couldn't make it to max level in WoW or Rift. From what I've seen, they give the game a much more organic feeling, and they completely change how an MMO is played. Rift had a similar system, and it was the only thing that I liked about the game (besides it looking nice), and I felt that the hybrid of traditional questing ruined it, so I can't wait for GW2's much more elaborate system.
3. No holy trinity and action-based combat. Again, this decision makes the game more organic. The way the everyone can resurrect anyone encourages teamwork. I also really like their stance on the action itself. I often found myself staring at cooldowns or gauges instead of what is actually going on, and that always bugged me. I used to play RO, and it was very focused on the action and position. Since started playing other games like WoW, I've never been satisfied. Not to mention that they are building in a skill combo system that looks like it will add a lot of depth to combat.
4. PvP. As I mentioned, I'm looking forward to the WvWvW structure. I'm tired of these short, repetitive skirmishes that seem to appeal more to FPS/ADD crowd. A two-week long battle that involves hundreds of players sounds much more interesting.
5. Underwater. Not many games have much water content, and I think it's an untapped resource. It looks amazing, and it seems to add a lot to the game, including how your character plays. And there is a lot of content that is strictly underwater.
6. Overall quality. Nothing in this game feels tacked on. Everything appears to be really well thought out and if it doesn't belong in the game, it's not. The crew seems to genuinely love what they do and care about the fans. I really don't get the feeling that it's some soulless product put out there to generate a profit. There's a lot of passion behind it.
Anyway, that's just a small list off the top of my head. There are a lot of other little things that I didn't mention, but those are the main ones. Whether or not you find those features appealing is entirely subjective, but those are some things that set it apart from the standard. It's nice to see a company produce a AAA game and not play it safe. Obviously they are going to discourage people like you, but it's a refreshing risk they are taking to create something different.
It's pretty common practice to label most MMO goals as "a carrot on a stick", but I recently came to fully understand why this is so bad. I found myself chasing the carrot, so to speak, because I imagined that I'd be having more fun once I got it. The truth is... I'm not. Once I get the carrot, there's just another one. I somehow keep talking myself into playing more on the prospect of future fun. That future is just a hologram, and the problem is that I never seem to be having fun in the present. Isn't that the point of video games... to have fun right now? School and work are for delayed pleasure.
At some point, the mentality has changed from: I'm going to play to have fun. To: I just need to get this item, or achieve this, and then I can have fun. Is it just me, or is that kind of messed up? You're taking time away from your busy life just to be even busier in a different one. I think what I'm going to start doing from now on is asking myself if I'm actually having fun every 20 minutes or so. If I can't honestly answer 'yes', then I'm not going to keep playing. If everyone adopted this policy, then developers and publishers may have to rethink their game design.
I like working towards goals irl and in games. MMOs are my only option of video games these days because their whole design was supposedly set around a dynamic journey - and I knew going in that journies aren't all fun and laughing. In my hayday of vanilla WoW I remember all the senses of accomplishments that were accompanied by both laughing and crying. Easy and quick games are not my idea of fun and would not hold my attention or subscription (for that matter) for very long.
The mentality you say changed is actually quite false and backwards. MMOs began with great difficulties and struggles and have been toned down and geared towards casual gamers more and more. That's why all these kiddies and immature folk run around with horrible names and even worse behavior.
Personally, I believe MMOs would be better off without the people threatening to quit b/c they weren't having non-stop fun.
I like working towards goals irl and in games. MMOs are my only option of video games these days because their whole design was supposedly set around a dynamic journey - and I knew going in that journies aren't all fun and laughing. In my hayday of vanilla WoW I remember all the senses of accomplishments that were accompanied by both laughing and crying. Easy and quick games are not my idea of fun and would not hold my attention or subscription (for that matter) for very long.
The mentality you say changed is actually quite false and backwards. MMOs began with great difficulties and struggles and have been toned down and geared towards casual gamers more and more. That's why all these kiddies and immature folk run around with horrible names and even worse behavior.
Personally, I believe MMOs would be better off without the people threatening to quit b/c they weren't having non-stop fun.
Well, I was mainly comparing my more recent experiences with MMOs vs my classic experiences with single-player RPGs. The only "old-schoolo" MMO that I got into was Ragnarok Online. That game was a traditional grindfest by most people's standards, but it didn't feel that way to me. I'm sure some it has to do with the fact that it was my first MMO, but I didn't get the carrot-chasing sensation that I get with newer games. For one the combat and enemies was varied enough that each monster felt like a different fight; in fact, depending on your class or build, some monsters might be impossible for you to kill, while someone of equal level could dispatch it with ease. Another reason why I didn't feel like I was chasing the carrot was because I the game had less structured content allowing me set my own goals. I wasn't arbitrarily chasing the next thing the designers wanted me to. And the bigest thing, I had fun while I was doing these things. Yeah, soloing was pretty grindy, but the combat was pretty simplistic at its base, and if you find the right spot, allowed for a somewhat relaxing expererience. Group play was a lot of fun, dynamic and intense. I'm going to use part of your argument as my own. MMOs have gotten easier. I think is one of the reasons that people feel more like they're being lead about, because chasing a carrot isn't particularly difficult. The fewer challenges we have to distract ourselves, the more evident this becomes. Many people don't find an easy-mode world very engauging, puting more focus on the linear content. Not to mention that if the you find the people irritating, then you're less likely to buy into the world. A lot of these factors contribute this.
My point wasn't that I don't like progression, but it should feel fun. I'm not even saying that there aren't people that feel this way. I was just stating that I can now fully empathize with those whom complain about the carrot conundrum. I get it now; that's all.
I wonder though, given that RPGs are about character skills and not player mastery, is it really possible to play them for a long time if you are not a casual? Does what progression system or setting you use really matter? Even in a great sandbox can you ever get passed the fact that a player's own talents aren't the focal point of the game? RTS games focus on player skill. That's why you can play the same ostensibly short game over and over. Same for FPS or LoL style games.
Playing a raid in WoW they don't really change as you repeat them. The difference in experience in 10 games of SoaSE is contains a fundamentally larger range compared to 10 of the same raid in WoW, even if you use the same map.
Why is this important? It is not like there is a shortage of entertainment. Sooner or later, a game will feel old and that is the time to move on.
My take is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to play any game .. or at least the same content for a long time. Even WOW is not designed for that. Each tier of content is designed to last only for a few month and many (including myself) would jump ship and do not come back until there is more content.
None of the SP games are designed to last for a long time either (except may be PvP FPS .. but the PvE portion, i.e. campaign, do not even last for more than 10-15 hours). MMOs which last months are already lasting a long time, in comparison.
5. Underwater. Not many games have much water content, and I think it's an untapped resource. It looks amazing, and it seems to add a lot to the game, including how your character plays. And there is a lot of content that is strictly underwater.
I guess that is true. However, WOW does have a big, and pretty well done, under water zone.
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
I wonder though, given that RPGs are about character skills and not player mastery, is it really possible to play them for a long time if you are not a casual? Does what progression system or setting you use really matter? Even in a great sandbox can you ever get passed the fact that a player's own talents aren't the focal point of the game? RTS games focus on player skill. That's why you can play the same ostensibly short game over and over. Same for FPS or LoL style games.
Playing a raid in WoW they don't really change as you repeat them. The difference in experience in 10 games of SoaSE is contains a fundamentally larger range compared to 10 of the same raid in WoW, even if you use the same map.
That kind of goes along with my opinion that if an MMO must have an endgame, then make it PvP-based, so that it's more dynamic. That's along same lines of why online FPS's are so popular. Each little instanced game is different becuae of the human variable. At this point it comes down to personal preference. Personally, I find that games like MW/BF or even the BGs to get really repetitive pretty quickly. I think that competition can drive motivation just as well as the carrot, but if I feel like I'm just going through the motions either way, then I get burnt out.
I think part of my problem with BGs is that it doesn't last very long. They take place on pretty small maps, have simple objectives, and are over quickly. It's just rinse and repeat at that point. I'm kind of looking foward to the GW2 WvWvW approach. The two-week long battles in a much bigger area with more objectives seems more appealing. Hoenstly, there are a lot of things I'm looking forward to about that game. I didn't pay it much attention at all until a month or so ago.. and I'm practically a fanboi now. lol
1) Being more dynamic does not necessarily be more fun, or last longer. And many do not like PvP. Sure current PvE end game gets old .. but ALL game gets old at some point. The point is whether more content can be produced soon enough to fillt he void.
2) BG is not less variable, nor less fast than a typical FPS PvP game. My son plays a lot of FPS pvp (and i do not) and their games are fast, and usually repeating the SAME map over and over again. The maps are not necessarily bigger either, depending on the game (BF3 has LARGE maps while COD does not).
Comments
yea you sumed it up with a picture, like the saying goes, it worth a thousand words
There is no spoon.Great way to happiness if sitting in front of a blank wall and thinking that beining happy is to accept that as being good
I guess that can work (you know, happiness is what you make it, sure a blank sheetrock wall can be great)
Really I do.........
Just stare and let eveything go
That might work. Then again, being drunk or high and watching a Teletubbies episode might work too :-)Every game is a carrot game.
You have a goal - you reach it - you go for the next goal.
I can see why there would be a specific pattern to this, thus the thread doesnt make sense to me.
What I personally despise is the treatmil game. A game where you work hard just to stay at the point you already are. Such as permanent item destruction - you have to replace your items again and again because they get destroyed over time.
Yet many people love this approach. Thats why Tetris is so popular.
The biggest 'carrot' that sticks the longest is always make some char (whether it is the player char or NPC) relatable to the player.
Doesn't matter what the game is afterwards, once you have that hook, that player is gonna stick with your game until some sort of resolution with that char is received. A good book will grab you by the end of page 1 and never let you go. Video games are of similar mould.
Think about Aeris in FF7, yeah, how many players didn't finish FF7 after Chapter 1?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Turn off bonus stars
it logically makes no sense for people to complain about it, because there is no carrot on a stick (metaphorically speaking). Since nobody forces you to run after the carrot. A horse runs after the carrot because it likes the carrot. But what is this carrot in terms of the metaphor? There isn't any, when you think about it. In WoW if I don't like Raiding, will I still raid for RAID gear? If so, why? Unless deep down inside I enjoy raiding.
Else wise I would go play some other activity that I like such as PvP or questing. Were is this carrot that say I need to Raid?
again,,, all this stuff we complain about is only in our head. We just don't see it that way.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I guess I have a bit of cynicism toward that sort of "achievement". I'm no small part an "acheiver" type player, but I neither see value in those "steam-type" acheivements(you shot 1000 guys with X gun! Yay!), nor am I the type that will run raids over and over and over again to get the absolute top-notch soon to be rendered obsolete epeen gear of nastiness.
Most of my favorite acheivements have been self-made... like(in LotRO) coming straight out of the tutorial and trying to make it to Rivendell without dying.
I started asking myself that a few years ago. Am I having fun right now? It seems so simple but MMOs are designed to make you not want to ask that question. The fun is always right around the corner. The fun will happen after I get that next piece of gear. The fun will be riding around on that new mount. It reminds me of this that someone posted here awhile back...
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html
Methinx that's a REALLY important question to ask yourself. After all, getting better gear is just a constant game of offsets. Your gear is better, but the mobs will be more powerful, too. If a game can't steer you away from that cycle, or at least keep you from thinking about it, everything you do will just feel like grind.
IMO, modern games do alot better job of that. I've never felt more like I was being led(carrot-stick) than when I tried EQ for the first time, which is a bit ironic, because most games since have blatantly called attention to it by prominently displaying yours and mobs levels. Despite a more vague "conning" system, I still felt like, more than ever, that I had to grind on easy mobs to "turn those red mobs white"...
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
I think you answered your own question. The donkey wants the carrot. Same with the players. We want the gear, or level, or whatever. However, the issue is that achieving those things isn't necessarily fun, nor is it really that fulfilling if you manage to achieve those things, because once you get them, there is always something over the next hill to keep you trudging along.
I'm not saying that no one enjoys these activities, but it's evident that a great number of players aren't very satisfied with the current setup. I think the focus of the games has changed to the goal, rather then the experience. That's where the metaphor comes in. Players are conditioned to keep the eye on the carrot.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
I wonder though, given that RPGs are about character skills and not player mastery, is it really possible to play them for a long time if you are not a casual? Does what progression system or setting you use really matter? Even in a great sandbox can you ever get passed the fact that a player's own talents aren't the focal point of the game? RTS games focus on player skill. That's why you can play the same ostensibly short game over and over. Same for FPS or LoL style games.
Playing a raid in WoW they don't really change as you repeat them. The difference in experience in 10 games of SoaSE is contains a fundamentally larger range compared to 10 of the same raid in WoW, even if you use the same map.
That kind of goes along with my opinion that if an MMO must have an endgame, then make it PvP-based, so that it's more dynamic. That's along same lines of why online FPS's are so popular. Each little instanced game is different becuae of the human variable. At this point it comes down to personal preference. Personally, I find that games like MW/BF or even the BGs to get really repetitive pretty quickly. I think that competition can drive motivation just as well as the carrot, but if I feel like I'm just going through the motions either way, then I get burnt out.
I think part of my problem with BGs is that it doesn't last very long. They take place on pretty small maps, have simple objectives, and are over quickly. It's just rinse and repeat at that point. I'm kind of looking foward to the GW2 WvWvW approach. The two-week long battles in a much bigger area with more objectives seems more appealing. Hoenstly, there are a lot of things I'm looking forward to about that game. I didn't pay it much attention at all until a month or so ago.. and I'm practically a fanboi now. lol
I am so excited about GW2 as well.
I think MMOs can't be PvP based in the 1v1 sense because again, character skill. They should be strategical PvP, although in my game I want it to be purely PvE. Just, not static bullshit like WoW.
Yeah, GW2 is quite a bit different than the ideal game that I had in mind, however they seem to have pretty good reasoning behind all of their decisions, and the team really seems to care about making a quality game. It's not just pumped out for a profit, like some games. Whether or not it has all the features that I'd want in an MMO, it still looks like a lot of fun, and there are a lot of really good ideas put into it.
I still dont know whats so special about GW2.
Other than B2P, this is a normal MMO with the usual buzzwords added.
They have now 10 instead of just 8 abilities, and they want to go for quality instead of quantity with the abilities; thats an improvement of sorts. But I'm used to have a much larger array of abilities, and have macros that can automatize things.
They removed healers completely which I, as a healer player, cannot find any fun.
They finally have a global world that is actually global and you can meet other players there. A standard feature present in everything I would call MMO. Yay.
They have races, but seriously none I would want to play in the first place, so meh.
And then theres these buzzwords such as dynamic events. Meh. Etc.
All in all I dont see why I shouldnt be bored with GW2 after 3 days just like I was bored with GW1 after 3 days.
Guild Wars 2 certainly isn't for everyone. As far as it being special, I think you answered your own question by listing a few of its features that set it apart, plus there are many other reasons why it's different. I think whether or not you like those changes is a different subject. No one is forcing you play; if you like the WoW/Rift/SWTOR type games, then, by all means, stay there. For many people, this game seems to bring a lot to the table. As I mentioned, I really had no interest in it until recently. In fact, its hype kind of irritated me, as hype generally does. I guess not the hype so much as the bloodthirsty fanboys that often accompany it. But once I actually started researching the game, I began to get excited about it. Here is a small list of what I find to be special about the game.
1. The art direction. This game looks amazing, both from an artistic stand point and technical. The concept art is quite good, and the game is filled with little details that give it a lot of personality. In fact, it's already won several awards, and has a renowned art team.
2. Dynamic events. I, like many, many other gamers are pretty sick of standard quests. In fact, I never liked them. That's the main reason that I couldn't make it to max level in WoW or Rift. From what I've seen, they give the game a much more organic feeling, and they completely change how an MMO is played. Rift had a similar system, and it was the only thing that I liked about the game (besides it looking nice), and I felt that the hybrid of traditional questing ruined it, so I can't wait for GW2's much more elaborate system.
3. No holy trinity and action-based combat. Again, this decision makes the game more organic. The way the everyone can resurrect anyone encourages teamwork. I also really like their stance on the action itself. I often found myself staring at cooldowns or gauges instead of what is actually going on, and that always bugged me. I used to play RO, and it was very focused on the action and position. Since started playing other games like WoW, I've never been satisfied. Not to mention that they are building in a skill combo system that looks like it will add a lot of depth to combat.
4. PvP. As I mentioned, I'm looking forward to the WvWvW structure. I'm tired of these short, repetitive skirmishes that seem to appeal more to FPS/ADD crowd. A two-week long battle that involves hundreds of players sounds much more interesting.
5. Underwater. Not many games have much water content, and I think it's an untapped resource. It looks amazing, and it seems to add a lot to the game, including how your character plays. And there is a lot of content that is strictly underwater.
6. Overall quality. Nothing in this game feels tacked on. Everything appears to be really well thought out and if it doesn't belong in the game, it's not. The crew seems to genuinely love what they do and care about the fans. I really don't get the feeling that it's some soulless product put out there to generate a profit. There's a lot of passion behind it.
Anyway, that's just a small list off the top of my head. There are a lot of other little things that I didn't mention, but those are the main ones. Whether or not you find those features appealing is entirely subjective, but those are some things that set it apart from the standard. It's nice to see a company produce a AAA game and not play it safe. Obviously they are going to discourage people like you, but it's a refreshing risk they are taking to create something different.
I like working towards goals irl and in games. MMOs are my only option of video games these days because their whole design was supposedly set around a dynamic journey - and I knew going in that journies aren't all fun and laughing. In my hayday of vanilla WoW I remember all the senses of accomplishments that were accompanied by both laughing and crying. Easy and quick games are not my idea of fun and would not hold my attention or subscription (for that matter) for very long.
The mentality you say changed is actually quite false and backwards. MMOs began with great difficulties and struggles and have been toned down and geared towards casual gamers more and more. That's why all these kiddies and immature folk run around with horrible names and even worse behavior.
Personally, I believe MMOs would be better off without the people threatening to quit b/c they weren't having non-stop fun.
Well, I was mainly comparing my more recent experiences with MMOs vs my classic experiences with single-player RPGs. The only "old-schoolo" MMO that I got into was Ragnarok Online. That game was a traditional grindfest by most people's standards, but it didn't feel that way to me. I'm sure some it has to do with the fact that it was my first MMO, but I didn't get the carrot-chasing sensation that I get with newer games. For one the combat and enemies was varied enough that each monster felt like a different fight; in fact, depending on your class or build, some monsters might be impossible for you to kill, while someone of equal level could dispatch it with ease. Another reason why I didn't feel like I was chasing the carrot was because I the game had less structured content allowing me set my own goals. I wasn't arbitrarily chasing the next thing the designers wanted me to. And the bigest thing, I had fun while I was doing these things. Yeah, soloing was pretty grindy, but the combat was pretty simplistic at its base, and if you find the right spot, allowed for a somewhat relaxing expererience. Group play was a lot of fun, dynamic and intense. I'm going to use part of your argument as my own. MMOs have gotten easier. I think is one of the reasons that people feel more like they're being lead about, because chasing a carrot isn't particularly difficult. The fewer challenges we have to distract ourselves, the more evident this becomes. Many people don't find an easy-mode world very engauging, puting more focus on the linear content. Not to mention that if the you find the people irritating, then you're less likely to buy into the world. A lot of these factors contribute this.
My point wasn't that I don't like progression, but it should feel fun. I'm not even saying that there aren't people that feel this way. I was just stating that I can now fully empathize with those whom complain about the carrot conundrum. I get it now; that's all.
Why is this important? It is not like there is a shortage of entertainment. Sooner or later, a game will feel old and that is the time to move on.
My take is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to play any game .. or at least the same content for a long time. Even WOW is not designed for that. Each tier of content is designed to last only for a few month and many (including myself) would jump ship and do not come back until there is more content.
None of the SP games are designed to last for a long time either (except may be PvP FPS .. but the PvE portion, i.e. campaign, do not even last for more than 10-15 hours). MMOs which last months are already lasting a long time, in comparison.
I guess that is true. However, WOW does have a big, and pretty well done, under water zone.
1) Being more dynamic does not necessarily be more fun, or last longer. And many do not like PvP. Sure current PvE end game gets old .. but ALL game gets old at some point. The point is whether more content can be produced soon enough to fillt he void.
2) BG is not less variable, nor less fast than a typical FPS PvP game. My son plays a lot of FPS pvp (and i do not) and their games are fast, and usually repeating the SAME map over and over again. The maps are not necessarily bigger either, depending on the game (BF3 has LARGE maps while COD does not).