Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
You need BOTH. Feeling powerful is CERTAINLY fun, as proven by ALL the diablo-like action RPGs out there. The combat also needs to be fun.
And there is no harm to be conditioned. If you are condition to have fun .. well .. you are having fun.
Your problem is that combat (or whatever the action is) is no longer fun for you. You can easily fix that by moving on to another game, or find something else to do.
You need BOTH. Feeling powerful is CERTAINLY fun, as proven by ALL the diablo-like action RPGs out there. The combat also needs to be fun.
And there is no harm to be conditioned. If you are condition to have fun .. well .. you are having fun.
Your problem is that combat (or whatever the action is) is no longer fun for you. You can easily fix that by moving on to another game, or find something else to do.
Being an underdog that wins is more fun than being powerful. Just watch every movie ever made, people always like the underdog better than the powerful.
Games needs to challenge the players to keep the interest up, in fact the first Diablo were actually really hard and you never became that powerful, it was Diablo 2 that allowed you to get so much gear and level that you could kill Diablo in your sleep once you grinded enough.
Particularly PvP get hurt by your kind of thinking but even PvE gets predictable and besides a few hard places far too easy.
I been playing computer games since I got my first C-64 in 1985 and games have never been more boring then they are now because they don´t challenge me in the same way the old games did. All fancy graphics in the world don´t actually make a game more fun, just prettier.
And new MMOs keeps players shorter and shorter periods today, the average time a new player play before he or she leaves goes down every year.
People tend to mix up grinding and difficulty but they are very different things. A monkey can grind and all it takes is time, challenge on the other hand is what always have driven gamers forward until the last few years.
I don´t mind that there are a few easy games around for people that like that kind of things but there must be some challenging as well. And every MMO becomes easier and easier after release.
1) Its still young, other MMO has years of development ahead of this game already, Give it time
2) Everyone wants their games to be perfect, name one that is perfect when it was released
3) Its only been _____ ( year/month/weeks/days/hours), all those that rushed to the end should be punished.
4) This is not the Game you are looking for....MOVE ON
Regardless the age of the Game, we are the Gamers, we are their target, we are the ones that pays for their paychecks. They need to listen to their target audience, its not what you see is what we get, as Gamers, we have a VOICE ( its not QQing when you can't even enjoy a game that is suppose to be an entertainment ) Stop arguing among ourselves, make our VOICE heard.
We want our carrot, make them bring it infront of us, so that we do not chase after it.
As gamers We want our Carrot and Our Cake too.
( BTW, when you tell one gamer to leave, its you that is hurting. Look at all the low population servers in all the MMO out there, the same players you told to leave, left and now you have dead servers, developers aren't losing money, because they still got you paying their salaries, and all they need is a few more months of you paying then they will move on to another project, another same game same design that only caters to a broad audience, but for only a few months, because thats all they need, a few month of payers. This will never change when they are earning money )
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
We want our carrot, make them bring it infront of us, so that we do not chase after it.
Kind a Age of Entitlement manifesto, stated thay way, isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I wonder though, given that RPGs are about character skills and not player mastery, is it really possible to play them for a long time if you are not a casual? Does what progression system or setting you use really matter? Even in a great sandbox can you ever get passed the fact that a player's own talents aren't the focal point of the game? RTS games focus on player skill. That's why you can play the same ostensibly short game over and over. Same for FPS or LoL style games.
Playing a raid in WoW they don't really change as you repeat them. The difference in experience in 10 games of SoaSE is contains a fundamentally larger range compared to 10 of the same raid in WoW, even if you use the same map.
Why is this important? It is not like there is a shortage of entertainment. Sooner or later, a game will feel old and that is the time to move on.
My take is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to play any game .. or at least the same content for a long time. Even WOW is not designed for that. Each tier of content is designed to last only for a few month and many (including myself) would jump ship and do not come back until there is more content.
None of the SP games are designed to last for a long time either (except may be PvP FPS .. but the PvE portion, i.e. campaign, do not even last for more than 10-15 hours). MMOs which last months are already lasting a long time, in comparison.
This is crap. SoaSE lasted me like 500 hours and civ lasted me 1000 hours. Majesty lasted me 1000 hours as well. So if I play an MMO 5 hours a day I expect to last AT LEAST 200 days because thats what single player games do.
The thing about virtual worlds as opposed to a themepark is that they can contain multiple "games" within them. Economics just as fun as Starport GE or Patrician 3. PvE with RTS elements just as fun as Gal Civ, Majesty, DF, Sins and so forth. Actual crafting as good as ATITD or SWG.
We don't need to design "content" we need to design good SYSTEMS. That is what RTS and 4x games have been doing for years.
The carrot is an illusion designed to keep you looking forwards, not paying attention to the fact that every step forward you take you erect a wall behind you cutting you off from a larger and larger portion of the game that you now outlevel and out-power. That's the problem with the current design... the more you progress the less game you actually have that makes a difference. Once you're at "endgame", they need to keep you on a treadmill until the next expansion, salivating over that dangling carrot in front of you, otherwise you'll get bored, cancel your sub and go away.
The beauty with GW2 is that the entire game will remain viable for your character at max level... you never outlevel the content you left behind. Plus, with the dynamic world, when you go back to that content odds are you'll see the world in a different state than when you saw it last, adding new experiences to old content. No carrots required.
Well .. if you are not having fun, obviously you should not play.
I am having fun, that is why i play. BTW, CHASING the carrot is fun. That is why the chase is never ending.
You're absolutely right. That's my point. I realized that I wasn't having fun, so I stopped. I think the issue is deeper than that, though. I came to conclusion that I was being conditioned by the game. The feeling of pregression is a good one, so the potential to be better is always dangling in front you. You, as the player, realize that once you get more powerful, you'll be able to do what you can't now, i.e. have more fun, but the process to get there isn't necessarily all that enjoyable, and once you achieve said goal, it's not really all that fulfilling.
All I know is that I found myself looking into the future in hopes of getting enjoyment out of the game, but I wasn't really enjoying the process of getting there. I undertand this isn't true for everyone, but I've noticed that it is for a lot of people. I just made the post as kind of an epiphany.
You need BOTH. Feeling powerful is CERTAINLY fun, as proven by ALL the diablo-like action RPGs out there. The combat also needs to be fun.
And there is no harm to be conditioned. If you are condition to have fun .. well .. you are having fun.
Your problem is that combat (or whatever the action is) is no longer fun for you. You can easily fix that by moving on to another game, or find something else to do.
I'm not complaining about a game that I'm still playing. I've already moved on. The point of the thread wasn't to complain, but more of an expression of my conclusion. I'm not the first to broach this subject, so I was just proclaiming that I get it now.
I agree that progression and feeling powerful is fun, that's one reason why I like RPGs, but I think the process should be fun also, rather than putting all of the emphasis on reaching some arbitrary goal. Part of the reason, at least for me, is that the goals in the newer games are kind of decided for me. I feel like I have as much freedom to do what I want to do, and it harder to stay motivated about a standardized achievement.
You need BOTH. Feeling powerful is CERTAINLY fun, as proven by ALL the diablo-like action RPGs out there. The combat also needs to be fun.
And there is no harm to be conditioned. If you are condition to have fun .. well .. you are having fun.
Your problem is that combat (or whatever the action is) is no longer fun for you. You can easily fix that by moving on to another game, or find something else to do.
Being an underdog that wins is more fun than being powerful. Just watch every movie ever made, people always like the underdog better than the powerful.
Games needs to challenge the players to keep the interest up, in fact the first Diablo were actually really hard and you never became that powerful, it was Diablo 2 that allowed you to get so much gear and level that you could kill Diablo in your sleep once you grinded enough.
Particularly PvP get hurt by your kind of thinking but even PvE gets predictable and besides a few hard places far too easy.
I been playing computer games since I got my first C-64 in 1985 and games have never been more boring then they are now because they don´t challenge me in the same way the old games did. All fancy graphics in the world don´t actually make a game more fun, just prettier.
And new MMOs keeps players shorter and shorter periods today, the average time a new player play before he or she leaves goes down every year.
People tend to mix up grinding and difficulty but they are very different things. A monkey can grind and all it takes is time, challenge on the other hand is what always have driven gamers forward until the last few years.
I don´t mind that there are a few easy games around for people that like that kind of things but there must be some challenging as well. And every MMO becomes easier and easier after release.
It is NOT mutually exclusive. May be you can only have fun when you are the underdog. That is certainly NOT true for every one. In fact, D2, as you say, make you feel powerful and it is a VERY popular game.
I have been playing computer games since my first Apple 2+, and games have never been more fun than they are now because they are MUCH better produced, with more experience than the old games. And fancy graphics HELPS. Dead Space, a super fun game, would NOT be possible in 1985.
This is crap. SoaSE lasted me like 500 hours and civ lasted me 1000 hours. Majesty lasted me 1000 hours as well. So if I play an MMO 5 hours a day I expect to last AT LEAST 200 days because thats what single player games do.
The thing about virtual worlds as opposed to a themepark is that they can contain multiple "games" within them. Economics just as fun as Starport GE or Patrician 3. PvE with RTS elements just as fun as Gal Civ, Majesty, DF, Sins and so forth. Actual crafting as good as ATITD or SWG.
We don't need to design "content" we need to design good SYSTEMS. That is what RTS and 4x games have been doing for years.
What, you generalize with 1 player (you) and 3 data points?
I can do the same. COD Black Ops last me what, 15 hrs max, and it was hell of a fun ride. Deadspace 1 & 2, Bioshock 1 & 2, Arkam Asylym ... all great games, all short.
Games do NOT have to be long to be good.
And how is the RTS market today? Aside from SC2 .. which has a LOT of content in the story and missions ... what are actually successful like the FPSes?
Sure you like this kind of games. But can you discount all the fun games that are fun purefly based on well produced content. You cannot ignore them.
Improving and progressing can feel fun and rewarding in its own right. The problem is most games require you to perform hours upon hours of boring work just to reach that next progression plateau. MMO players have come to call this the "grind." As a result, it seems progression has gotten somewhat of a bad rep in some circles because it is viewed as the reason all the boring, grindy gameplay exists.
But it doesn't have to be that way! I would argue it is possible to offer a wide variety of compelling progression incentives without making any gameplay sacrifices. There's no reason that all the tasks (read gameplay) you have to perform--to earn levels, abilities and gear; to gain passage to a fortress, zone or dungeon; to earn the loyalty of a faction, town or empire; to earn the right to ride mounts, access airships or be teleported to select locations by powerful mages; or to attain any number of other potentially fun and rewarding progression goal--have to be grindy. Imagine a game where all the gameplay all the time, even while working toward a variety of goals, is loads of fun in its own right! As in, you might actually want to be doing this stuff, regardless of whether or not you reach some goal at the end. Progression then becomes an exciting bonus, a compelling, fun reward--the tasty icing on top of a gameplay cake.
The carrot may be a lie, but the cake doesn't have to be!
We want our carrot, make them bring it infront of us, so that we do not chase after it.
Kind a Age of Entitlement manifesto, stated thay way, isn't it?
But don't you think that we as the Consumer, are entitled to what they promised they would bring us.
Remember that Advertisment should result in the truth, if they say they will bring us a feature, that feature must damn well be in the game, and working as intended, regardless of the amount of time they require to perfect it.
I am sick and tired of Game companies that said that this feature will be the bomb, this feature will amaze us, and all they have is some buggy ( dog poo ) that doesn't work or is obvious something they threw together just to get to release. Believing that they will use our subscriber money to fix what should already be working.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Comments
You need BOTH. Feeling powerful is CERTAINLY fun, as proven by ALL the diablo-like action RPGs out there. The combat also needs to be fun.
And there is no harm to be conditioned. If you are condition to have fun .. well .. you are having fun.
Your problem is that combat (or whatever the action is) is no longer fun for you. You can easily fix that by moving on to another game, or find something else to do.
Being an underdog that wins is more fun than being powerful. Just watch every movie ever made, people always like the underdog better than the powerful.
Games needs to challenge the players to keep the interest up, in fact the first Diablo were actually really hard and you never became that powerful, it was Diablo 2 that allowed you to get so much gear and level that you could kill Diablo in your sleep once you grinded enough.
Particularly PvP get hurt by your kind of thinking but even PvE gets predictable and besides a few hard places far too easy.
I been playing computer games since I got my first C-64 in 1985 and games have never been more boring then they are now because they don´t challenge me in the same way the old games did. All fancy graphics in the world don´t actually make a game more fun, just prettier.
And new MMOs keeps players shorter and shorter periods today, the average time a new player play before he or she leaves goes down every year.
People tend to mix up grinding and difficulty but they are very different things. A monkey can grind and all it takes is time, challenge on the other hand is what always have driven gamers forward until the last few years.
I don´t mind that there are a few easy games around for people that like that kind of things but there must be some challenging as well. And every MMO becomes easier and easier after release.
The most used excuse for an MMO is
1) Its still young, other MMO has years of development ahead of this game already, Give it time
2) Everyone wants their games to be perfect, name one that is perfect when it was released
3) Its only been _____ ( year/month/weeks/days/hours), all those that rushed to the end should be punished.
4) This is not the Game you are looking for....MOVE ON
Regardless the age of the Game, we are the Gamers, we are their target, we are the ones that pays for their paychecks. They need to listen to their target audience, its not what you see is what we get, as Gamers, we have a VOICE ( its not QQing when you can't even enjoy a game that is suppose to be an entertainment ) Stop arguing among ourselves, make our VOICE heard.
We want our carrot, make them bring it infront of us, so that we do not chase after it.
As gamers We want our Carrot and Our Cake too.
( BTW, when you tell one gamer to leave, its you that is hurting. Look at all the low population servers in all the MMO out there, the same players you told to leave, left and now you have dead servers, developers aren't losing money, because they still got you paying their salaries, and all they need is a few more months of you paying then they will move on to another project, another same game same design that only caters to a broad audience, but for only a few months, because thats all they need, a few month of payers. This will never change when they are earning money )
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Kind a Age of Entitlement manifesto, stated thay way, isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
This is crap. SoaSE lasted me like 500 hours and civ lasted me 1000 hours. Majesty lasted me 1000 hours as well. So if I play an MMO 5 hours a day I expect to last AT LEAST 200 days because thats what single player games do.
The thing about virtual worlds as opposed to a themepark is that they can contain multiple "games" within them. Economics just as fun as Starport GE or Patrician 3. PvE with RTS elements just as fun as Gal Civ, Majesty, DF, Sins and so forth. Actual crafting as good as ATITD or SWG.
We don't need to design "content" we need to design good SYSTEMS. That is what RTS and 4x games have been doing for years.
The carrot is an illusion designed to keep you looking forwards, not paying attention to the fact that every step forward you take you erect a wall behind you cutting you off from a larger and larger portion of the game that you now outlevel and out-power. That's the problem with the current design... the more you progress the less game you actually have that makes a difference. Once you're at "endgame", they need to keep you on a treadmill until the next expansion, salivating over that dangling carrot in front of you, otherwise you'll get bored, cancel your sub and go away.
The beauty with GW2 is that the entire game will remain viable for your character at max level... you never outlevel the content you left behind. Plus, with the dynamic world, when you go back to that content odds are you'll see the world in a different state than when you saw it last, adding new experiences to old content. No carrots required.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I'm not complaining about a game that I'm still playing. I've already moved on. The point of the thread wasn't to complain, but more of an expression of my conclusion. I'm not the first to broach this subject, so I was just proclaiming that I get it now.
I agree that progression and feeling powerful is fun, that's one reason why I like RPGs, but I think the process should be fun also, rather than putting all of the emphasis on reaching some arbitrary goal. Part of the reason, at least for me, is that the goals in the newer games are kind of decided for me. I feel like I have as much freedom to do what I want to do, and it harder to stay motivated about a standardized achievement.
It is NOT mutually exclusive. May be you can only have fun when you are the underdog. That is certainly NOT true for every one. In fact, D2, as you say, make you feel powerful and it is a VERY popular game.
I have been playing computer games since my first Apple 2+, and games have never been more fun than they are now because they are MUCH better produced, with more experience than the old games. And fancy graphics HELPS. Dead Space, a super fun game, would NOT be possible in 1985.
What, you generalize with 1 player (you) and 3 data points?
I can do the same. COD Black Ops last me what, 15 hrs max, and it was hell of a fun ride. Deadspace 1 & 2, Bioshock 1 & 2, Arkam Asylym ... all great games, all short.
Games do NOT have to be long to be good.
And how is the RTS market today? Aside from SC2 .. which has a LOT of content in the story and missions ... what are actually successful like the FPSes?
Sure you like this kind of games. But can you discount all the fun games that are fun purefly based on well produced content. You cannot ignore them.
Improving and progressing can feel fun and rewarding in its own right. The problem is most games require you to perform hours upon hours of boring work just to reach that next progression plateau. MMO players have come to call this the "grind." As a result, it seems progression has gotten somewhat of a bad rep in some circles because it is viewed as the reason all the boring, grindy gameplay exists.
But it doesn't have to be that way! I would argue it is possible to offer a wide variety of compelling progression incentives without making any gameplay sacrifices. There's no reason that all the tasks (read gameplay) you have to perform--to earn levels, abilities and gear; to gain passage to a fortress, zone or dungeon; to earn the loyalty of a faction, town or empire; to earn the right to ride mounts, access airships or be teleported to select locations by powerful mages; or to attain any number of other potentially fun and rewarding progression goal--have to be grindy. Imagine a game where all the gameplay all the time, even while working toward a variety of goals, is loads of fun in its own right! As in, you might actually want to be doing this stuff, regardless of whether or not you reach some goal at the end. Progression then becomes an exciting bonus, a compelling, fun reward--the tasty icing on top of a gameplay cake.
The carrot may be a lie, but the cake doesn't have to be!
But don't you think that we as the Consumer, are entitled to what they promised they would bring us.
Remember that Advertisment should result in the truth, if they say they will bring us a feature, that feature must damn well be in the game, and working as intended, regardless of the amount of time they require to perfect it.
I am sick and tired of Game companies that said that this feature will be the bomb, this feature will amaze us, and all they have is some buggy ( dog poo ) that doesn't work or is obvious something they threw together just to get to release. Believing that they will use our subscriber money to fix what should already be working.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.