So from the responses so far is seems that, pay to win aside, some players enjoy only certain aspects of the game (dungeons, raiding, PvP), and dislike the other aspects such as leveling or having to farm gold, etc.
As a follow up question in regards to the above...
For those of you who do like convenience related RMT and Item Malls: Would you be interested in playing an MMO that was designed specifically, or otherwise offered a separate server ruleset, to let you bypass the "grind" portion of gameplay and jump right into the 'end-game' content (raiding, PvP, etc)?
I'm not trying to bash those who like RMT and item malls. Simply trying to understand the motivation and see if there is a potential way to make all involved happy. It has been an issue over the years as RMT is against the rules for many MMOs, and additionally "convenience" services being added to games where there was none before having caused turmoil within playerbases.
I think enough people would be for it, but it would be very short-lived. If anyone remembers how much fun the Test Server was in UO, but it wasn't something I would play full-time.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Maybe if all MMOs were, you know, actually fun to play outside boss battles and quests than we wouldn't care about item malls. However, developers in this genre seem fixated on the idea that leveling up should be an agonizing carrot-on-a-stick process. Personally I think it's an attempt to addict players to a game while never giving them any feeling of completion no matter how far they get.
If someone considers 100 hours in the same dungeon for a set of gear 'playing', then I'm okay with 'not playing'. It's a lot more fun imo to USE gear than the current methods in most mmos ACQUIRING it.
If you play an mmo and the only purpose in getting gear is to move to a new dungeon and get gear to replace it.... well you need to take a hard look at your motivation and life in general.
So from the responses so far is seems that, pay to win aside, some players enjoy only certain aspects of the game (dungeons, raiding, PvP), and dislike the other aspects such as leveling or having to farm gold, etc.
As a follow up question in regards to the above...
For those of you who do like convenience related RMT and Item Malls: Would you be interested in playing an MMO that was designed specifically, or otherwise offered a separate server ruleset, to let you bypass the "grind" portion of gameplay and jump right into the 'end-game' content (raiding, PvP, etc)?
With modification. I think, in class-based games, it'd be nice that you could buy characters equal to your highest-level character. It's gets very tedious to level up characters that keep sharing the same story, fighting the same bosses, getting the same rewards...
That story-repeat is what drove me out of LOTRO, SWTOR, EQ2 (which had far, far less of it than the others) and many other class-based games. Even SWTOR has that issue, despite all the hype about the class stories... And if the stories aren't good... And the classes share it...
Leveling up a Shadow and a Sage... The story was awful beyond belief... Having to do it twice... It was MMO torture... Even with the spacebar...
Depends. Do you know any games with ingame auction houses, tank and spank holy trinity classes, gear progression and play with around 20 to 40 people killing a single boss you would never in a million years be able to do alone? All this with no levellign curve
Nope, I don't. That's perfectly fair. And in the end, what you do with your money is your own business.
But don't forget that get what you pay for and if you choose to train companies that putting roadblocks in your way will make you open your wallet, then that's what they'll continue to design games to do. And that's where your consumer decisions impact my game play.
So from the responses so far is seems that, pay to win aside, some players enjoy only certain aspects of the game (dungeons, raiding, PvP), and dislike the other aspects such as leveling or having to farm gold, etc.
As a follow up question in regards to the above...
For those of you who do like convenience related RMT and Item Malls: Would you be interested in playing an MMO that was designed specifically, or otherwise offered a separate server ruleset, to let you bypass the "grind" portion of gameplay and jump right into the 'end-game' content (raiding, PvP, etc)?
I'm not trying to bash those who like RMT and item malls. Simply trying to understand the motivation and see if there is a potential way to make all involved happy. It has been an issue over the years as RMT is against the rules for many MMOs, and additionally "convenience" services being added to games where there was none before having caused turmoil within playerbases.
Well let's take EVE for example. I played for over 3.5 years, and spent a large portion of my time doing PVE activities to earn enough ISK to PVP.
Now there is a way to sell time cards for ISK, but the price for that is a bit higher than I'm willing to pay. If I could get about a billion ISK per PLEX I'd probably just play the game that way, but as it stands it always was around a 400K ratiio to 1 and that wasn't good enough for me.
So I saved up about 12B ISK in my day through hard work (never really did figure out the good ways to earn ISK that so many claim to make bilions of ISK w/o really trying), but I never got to PVP like I would have preferred to.
So yes, I would gladly pay a reasonable amount extra to skip the parts of a game that I don't care for to focus on the particular aspects that I do.
If I ever hit that big lottery, look out EVE, I'm buying a Titan.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Depends. Do you know any games with ingame auction houses, tank and spank holy trinity classes, gear progression and play with around 20 to 40 people killing a single boss you would never in a million years be able to do alone? All this with no levellign curve
Nope, I don't. That's perfectly fair. And in the end, what you do with your money is your own business.
But don't forget that get what you pay for and if you choose to train companies that putting roadblocks in your way will make you open your wallet, then that's what they'll continue to design games to do. And that's where your consumer decisions impact my game play.
Well, if a developer put too many road block and charge too much, people will just switch hobbies. It is not like MMO is the only entertainment out there.
I've never paid a penny to an item mall or RMT in an MMO.
I think the people that use these services the most hate leveling up and building a character. They believe that the "endgame" is where the game starts. Most are also likely not old school MMO players. Or old school people that now have almost no time to play, although I'm not sure why you would play a grindy MMO if you have no time to play.
I've seen a lot of good explanations in this thread, although I still don't quite understand the mentality. Why are these impatient, super straped for time people playing grindy MMO's?
I've never paid a penny to an item mall or RMT in an MMO.
I think the people that use these services the most hate leveling up and building a character. They believe that the "endgame" is where the game starts. Most are also likely not old school MMO players. Or old school people that now have almost no time to play, although I'm not sure why you would play a grindy MMO if you have no time to play.
I've seen a lot of good explanations in this thread, although I still don't quite understand the mentality. Why are these impatient, super straped for time people playing grindy MMO's?
Because you cannot get the dungeoning/raid experience anywhere else?
Tell me a game outside of a MMO, that a group of 25 people, with all different class & abilities, can come together and fight bossess with special mechanics.
So from the responses so far is seems that, pay to win aside, some players enjoy only certain aspects of the game (dungeons, raiding, PvP), and dislike the other aspects such as leveling or having to farm gold, etc.
As a follow up question in regards to the above...
For those of you who do like convenience related RMT and Item Malls: Would you be interested in playing an MMO that was designed specifically, or otherwise offered a separate server ruleset, to let you bypass the "grind" portion of gameplay and jump right into the 'end-game' content (raiding, PvP, etc)?
I'm not trying to bash those who like RMT and item malls. Simply trying to understand the motivation and see if there is a potential way to make all involved happy. It has been an issue over the years as RMT is against the rules for many MMOs, and additionally "convenience" services being added to games where there was none before having caused turmoil within playerbases.
It's rarely about getting to endgame. It may be to get more loot or better loot. It may be to have something that offers a slight bonus or different effect. It may be to make travel or recovery safer. It may be something to reduce downtime. There are dozens of different reasons people buy convenience items and very few have anything to do with wanting to get to 'endgame'.
Also, RMT has never been against the rules - unauthorized RMT has. There is a huge difference betwen the two. One of them the game is designed to support and the other is completely unregulated and outside of the game. You will also find that many people would rather give the game company their money in a secure transaction than pay a third party.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've never paid a penny to an item mall or RMT in an MMO.
I think the people that use these services the most hate leveling up and building a character. They believe that the "endgame" is where the game starts. Most are also likely not old school MMO players. Or old school people that now have almost no time to play, although I'm not sure why you would play a grindy MMO if you have no time to play.
I've seen a lot of good explanations in this thread, although I still don't quite understand the mentality. Why are these impatient, super straped for time people playing grindy MMO's?
Because you cannot get the dungeoning/raid experience anywhere else?
Tell me a game outside of a MMO, that a group of 25 people, with all different class & abilities, can come together and fight bossess with special mechanics.
TeamFortress 2's Halloween levels have this, and the game also technically includes the archetype roles of tank, healer, and DPS. Honestly, those levels are pretty fun too in my opinion.
Maybe this type of gameplay is something that needs to be explored further. There seems to be decently sized group of gamers that are interested in games with dungeon and raid-like encounters, but without all of the 'leveling' and 'grind' otherwise present in most MMOs.
Well, I don't play games to feel like I've achieved something. I can't speak for everybody here, but I simply play because it's enjoyable. Basically, you could look at a +50% Experience boost as bypassing gameplay or you could simply view it as making the overall experience more enjoyable. A lot of people don't have all the time in the world to spend playing a game, regardless of whether it's enjoyable or not. Anyway, most of those item malls just have cosmetics and a few experience boosting items, so it's not really skipping anything. You may be leveling a bit faster, but you're still playing the same game and going through the same content.
This in my opinion mostly has to do with the following:
1. The players that have all the time in the world
2. The players that dont have all the time in the world, probably has a job, and a good income
Group 1 despices if you have to pay for anything, cause time is what they, not money, hence they despice that you can buy yourself some advantage.
Group 2 doesnt have the amount of time/or the desire to spend time to get what they want and easily will pay 10 $ if it saves them 5 hours of playtime. So they compensate by spending money instead of time.
As time equals money, they both are the same. And both sides represent the diabolical manifesto of evil that most gamers hate. The hardcore-i-spend-xx-hours-every-day vs. the I-Will-buy-the-shit-outta-your-cashshops.
And of course those that have money dont have time, and those that have time dont have money, and then there are those in between.
Its really only a discussion about preference for either time or money, as long as it is balanced ingame.
Personally i dont see the problem as long as they are equal, IE infinite time gives you the same as infinite money, and vice versa.
I recently gave the F2P version of Lineage 2 a try, and after a few good attempts, (2 chars up to 61 and one up to 69) I decided the game is still too grindy for a person of limited play time as myself.
What I don't really want to do is spend 6 months or a year grinding on NPC's at .0001 exp to be competitive in the end game castle sieging activities.
I would gladly pay to level in this title to buy really good exp boosters that would get me to max level in about 3 months or less so I could enjoy the part of the game I'm interested. Problem is, though they offer EXP booster they really don't boost it up enough so no interest to me.
In the end, my play time is too limited to do this game justice, so I had to quit and move on.
But it's a shame really, I would have enjoyed the castle sieges but can't stomach the grind to get there.
L2 is old-school, and thus works slightly different than current games, you dont have to be maxlevel to participate in sieges, most people arent max, a time ago just 80-85 took about a year, dunno now
If you look only at sieges and dont like the rest of the game, you know, no pleasing you then, they are only once in two weeks for 2 hours and most of the gameplay is leveling, AFTER you hit high level with your character, you can add a subclass, level the same character with as a diffterent class from 40, gives passive and active skills for the main class (some useless some marginally useful).
Free servers have xp rates increased (up to 1000x), you might want to check that out, and even offer a korean model cash shops (vanity + boosts).
Because you cannot get the dungeoning/raid experience anywhere else?
Tell me a game outside of a MMO, that a group of 25 people, with all different class & abilities, can come together and fight bossess with special mechanics.
TeamFortress 2's Halloween levels have this, and the game also technically includes the archetype roles of tank, healer, and DPS. Honestly, those levels are pretty fun too in my opinion.
Maybe this type of gameplay is something that needs to be explored further. There seems to be decently sized group of gamers that are interested in games with dungeon and raid-like encounters, but without all of the 'leveling' and 'grind' otherwise present in most MMOs.
Really? Team Fortress? In terms of mechanics, it will be QUITE far away from a typical MMO raid. I think it would be hard to convince any reasonable player that TF2 is a substitute to a raid. Note the specific raid mechanics and how that interacts with class mechanics.
More broadly, i agree this type of gameplay needs to be explored more. There is a new iOS game called Raid Leader focusing on that. That game is nothing but boss fight. It is a RTS where you control a tank, a healer, and a DPS. There is progression but all is done in boss fight.
While I gain much more enjoyment from building a character and the leveling process, I do agree that some games in the future should start you at endgame and you just group and raid. I think that rather than trying to please everyone with one game, separating gamer groups would make both groups happier. Then the endgame focused people can skip the item malls.
A game has many types of content. Grind, leveling, dungeon, making gold, .....
Some players only like some of the content. To do that, you need to bypass some other ones. Is that so hard to understand?
If I enjoy raiding a great deal, but NOT leveling up, then isn't it VERY logical to pay to level faster?
It is a fallacy to assume all players enjoy all the content equally, and that they value achievement equally. As long as *some* content is gated, there is someone out there who may want to bypass with RMT.
This is exactly why I play F2P cash shop games as it gives me the freedom to play how I want to play and not gate any content off because I HAVE to do something I don't like doing to get to something I do like doing. I feel many players are starting to realise this and thats why F2P is becoming much more popular in the west.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Comments
I think enough people would be for it, but it would be very short-lived. If anyone remembers how much fun the Test Server was in UO, but it wasn't something I would play full-time.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Maybe if all MMOs were, you know, actually fun to play outside boss battles and quests than we wouldn't care about item malls. However, developers in this genre seem fixated on the idea that leveling up should be an agonizing carrot-on-a-stick process. Personally I think it's an attempt to addict players to a game while never giving them any feeling of completion no matter how far they get.
If someone considers 100 hours in the same dungeon for a set of gear 'playing', then I'm okay with 'not playing'. It's a lot more fun imo to USE gear than the current methods in most mmos ACQUIRING it.
If you play an mmo and the only purpose in getting gear is to move to a new dungeon and get gear to replace it.... well you need to take a hard look at your motivation and life in general.
With modification. I think, in class-based games, it'd be nice that you could buy characters equal to your highest-level character. It's gets very tedious to level up characters that keep sharing the same story, fighting the same bosses, getting the same rewards...
That story-repeat is what drove me out of LOTRO, SWTOR, EQ2 (which had far, far less of it than the others) and many other class-based games. Even SWTOR has that issue, despite all the hype about the class stories... And if the stories aren't good... And the classes share it...
Leveling up a Shadow and a Sage... The story was awful beyond belief... Having to do it twice... It was MMO torture... Even with the spacebar...
Nope, I don't. That's perfectly fair. And in the end, what you do with your money is your own business.
But don't forget that get what you pay for and if you choose to train companies that putting roadblocks in your way will make you open your wallet, then that's what they'll continue to design games to do. And that's where your consumer decisions impact my game play.
Well let's take EVE for example. I played for over 3.5 years, and spent a large portion of my time doing PVE activities to earn enough ISK to PVP.
Now there is a way to sell time cards for ISK, but the price for that is a bit higher than I'm willing to pay. If I could get about a billion ISK per PLEX I'd probably just play the game that way, but as it stands it always was around a 400K ratiio to 1 and that wasn't good enough for me.
So I saved up about 12B ISK in my day through hard work (never really did figure out the good ways to earn ISK that so many claim to make bilions of ISK w/o really trying), but I never got to PVP like I would have preferred to.
So yes, I would gladly pay a reasonable amount extra to skip the parts of a game that I don't care for to focus on the particular aspects that I do.
If I ever hit that big lottery, look out EVE, I'm buying a Titan.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, if a developer put too many road block and charge too much, people will just switch hobbies. It is not like MMO is the only entertainment out there.
I've never paid a penny to an item mall or RMT in an MMO.
I think the people that use these services the most hate leveling up and building a character. They believe that the "endgame" is where the game starts. Most are also likely not old school MMO players. Or old school people that now have almost no time to play, although I'm not sure why you would play a grindy MMO if you have no time to play.
I've seen a lot of good explanations in this thread, although I still don't quite understand the mentality. Why are these impatient, super straped for time people playing grindy MMO's?
Because you cannot get the dungeoning/raid experience anywhere else?
Tell me a game outside of a MMO, that a group of 25 people, with all different class & abilities, can come together and fight bossess with special mechanics.
It's rarely about getting to endgame. It may be to get more loot or better loot. It may be to have something that offers a slight bonus or different effect. It may be to make travel or recovery safer. It may be something to reduce downtime. There are dozens of different reasons people buy convenience items and very few have anything to do with wanting to get to 'endgame'.
Also, RMT has never been against the rules - unauthorized RMT has. There is a huge difference betwen the two. One of them the game is designed to support and the other is completely unregulated and outside of the game. You will also find that many people would rather give the game company their money in a secure transaction than pay a third party.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
TeamFortress 2's Halloween levels have this, and the game also technically includes the archetype roles of tank, healer, and DPS. Honestly, those levels are pretty fun too in my opinion.
Maybe this type of gameplay is something that needs to be explored further. There seems to be decently sized group of gamers that are interested in games with dungeon and raid-like encounters, but without all of the 'leveling' and 'grind' otherwise present in most MMOs.
This in my opinion mostly has to do with the following:
1. The players that have all the time in the world
2. The players that dont have all the time in the world, probably has a job, and a good income
Group 1 despices if you have to pay for anything, cause time is what they, not money, hence they despice that you can buy yourself some advantage.
Group 2 doesnt have the amount of time/or the desire to spend time to get what they want and easily will pay 10 $ if it saves them 5 hours of playtime. So they compensate by spending money instead of time.
As time equals money, they both are the same. And both sides represent the diabolical manifesto of evil that most gamers hate. The hardcore-i-spend-xx-hours-every-day vs. the I-Will-buy-the-shit-outta-your-cashshops.
And of course those that have money dont have time, and those that have time dont have money, and then there are those in between.
Its really only a discussion about preference for either time or money, as long as it is balanced ingame.
Personally i dont see the problem as long as they are equal, IE infinite time gives you the same as infinite money, and vice versa.
To each his own!
L2 is old-school, and thus works slightly different than current games, you dont have to be maxlevel to participate in sieges, most people arent max, a time ago just 80-85 took about a year, dunno now
If you look only at sieges and dont like the rest of the game, you know, no pleasing you then, they are only once in two weeks for 2 hours and most of the gameplay is leveling, AFTER you hit high level with your character, you can add a subclass, level the same character with as a diffterent class from 40, gives passive and active skills for the main class (some useless some marginally useful).
Free servers have xp rates increased (up to 1000x), you might want to check that out, and even offer a korean model cash shops (vanity + boosts).
Flame on!
Really? Team Fortress? In terms of mechanics, it will be QUITE far away from a typical MMO raid. I think it would be hard to convince any reasonable player that TF2 is a substitute to a raid. Note the specific raid mechanics and how that interacts with class mechanics.
More broadly, i agree this type of gameplay needs to be explored more. There is a new iOS game called Raid Leader focusing on that. That game is nothing but boss fight. It is a RTS where you control a tank, a healer, and a DPS. There is progression but all is done in boss fight.
This is exactly why I play F2P cash shop games as it gives me the freedom to play how I want to play and not gate any content off because I HAVE to do something I don't like doing to get to something I do like doing. I feel many players are starting to realise this and thats why F2P is becoming much more popular in the west.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.