Here is the problem with a real death penalty, people avoid tough content so they wont die, they avoid taken on an elite level 23 when they are a 22 because if they die they know the penalty will be to harsh.
so they wait till they are a level 40 to take on a 23 elite, or they avoid them all together
To many peoople tend to corelate dp with how hard a game is. When in fact its just the punishment for failure thats harsh.
The game having a harsh dp doesnt make it tougher or more dificult it just punishes u worse for failing.
The difficulty in a game isnt in the dp but in the ai of the mobs and the bosses in raids and instances. its not in the dp.
In terms of sticking with something, community interaction, fine tuning how to be civil and keep my calm during stressful moments, yes it did make me a better man. I kept those skills when i left the game.
It probably helped me alot more than any MMO where you are basically another fish in the sea & can't even remember the name of the people you grouped with 15 minutes ago cause it doesn't matter. If being impatient, complaining things are too tough, and wanting to coast through life are things that you want to take out of the game. I wish you luck
I'm no programmer, but given everything we see done in today's games, I can't imagine it would be difficult for a company to set up a "death penalty" server for a given game.
That kinda takes the argument out of it and makes it a personal choice.
Gods forgive my lack of faith in humanity, I can still imagine someone complaining, though.
Or maybe MMO's could just set up "Easy Mode or Casual Mode" type servers & call those with an actual death penalty "Normal Servers"
If you resign those servers to "special" servers than it will have less of an effect in reversing the decline of the MMO genre towards (/shudder) Farmville status....
Soon we will have the 100 million dollar Famville! You know because SWTOR clearly was worth every penny of that. No backdoor shady deals were made at all on that one. It's SO innovative!
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
You're completely right of course. But, these threads tend to go only one way.
Those that have played MMOs with risk vs reward AND WoW clones will say that a death penalty brings them into the game, adds tension, makes things memorable and strategic, ect ect.
And those who have ONLY played WoW clones will go on and on about "But you lose money!" or "But dying already sucks!" and emphatically argue that their way is better, even though they've never played any other way, and have no perspective.
Same thing goes when you bring up a non instanced MMO. Hell, some of them say "MMOs can't work without instancing!" or even more hilariously "someone will steal all my kills and grief me!" (but note, if that problem actually existed, it'd exist outside instances too). They just don't understand and cannot comprehend how an MMO would work unless its a WoW clone.
Have you even wondered that maybe topics like these don't go anywhere beacsue of assumptions and arrogance displayed above?
Nope. Because this isn't assumption based or arrogance, it's simple observation. I've been here many years and I know how it always goes. People with experience will try to talk pros and cons while those with none torpedo the conversation. Ignorance at its finest.
Kinda like how I can make observation on most people from MA ? How ignorance and arrogance displayed during Sox and Pats games ? I completely agree with you. Observation works
In terms of sticking with something, community interaction, fine tuning how to be civil and keep my calm during stressful moments, yes it did make me a better man. I kept those skills when i left the game.
It probably helped me alot more than any MMO where you are basically another fish in the sea & can't even remember the name of the people you grouped with 15 minutes ago cause it doesn't matter. If being impatient, complaining things are too tough, and wanting to coast through life are things that you want to take out of the game. I wish you luck
This post wins the argument you can all go home now.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
The reason i stay in an MMO is the progress i make and the items i earn.
If i would loose things i had spent alot of time earning, i certainly would NOT waste my precious time
doing it all over, no way. I would probably quit and get a RL life.
So basically you are stuck on the treadmill in the game and don't want to quit because "You can't take it with you". Fair enough. I can see how with this outlook you could consider any setback a waste of time but do you really plan to be playing the same MMO for the rest of your life because you don't want to lose what you "earned"
Yes, i want to stay in the MMO for the long haul. I want it to be the RL escape, where i come to visit, do things with friends and guildies, progress my character.
The one part of your statement I don't really get is saying you spent "alot of time earning" your items.
I come from SWG and if you played jedi, it could take hundreds of hours grinding holocrons etc.
Some collections could also take a lot ot time to complete, but the sweet reward was worth it, but i wouldnt do it all over again, should i loose it.
I'm no programmer, but given everything we see done in today's games, I can't imagine it would be difficult for a company to set up a "death penalty" server for a given game.
That kinda takes the argument out of it and makes it a personal choice.
Gods forgive my lack of faith in humanity, I can still imagine someone complaining, though.
Or maybe MMO's could just set up "Easy Mode or Casual Mode" type servers & call those with an actual death penalty "Normal Servers"
If you resign those servers to "special" servers than it will have less of an effect in reversing the decline of the MMO genre towards (/shudder) Farmville status....
That's a very good point. I like the way you think.
_____________________________ "Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
Here is the problem with a real death penalty, people avoid tough content so they wont die, they avoid taken on an elite level 23 when they are a 22 because if they die they know the penalty will be to harsh.
so they wait till they are a level 40 to take on a 23 elite, or they avoid them all together
To many peoople tend to corelate dp with how hard a game is. When in fact its just the punishment for failure thats harsh.
The game having a harsh dp doesnt make it tougher or more dificult it just punishes u worse for failing.
The difficulty in a game isnt in the dp but in the ai of the mobs and the bosses in raids and instances. its not in the dp.
What about the group of lvl 19's who invited him to their group, and because he is anti social refused? They just shrug and beat the content together as intended. Then they laugh and wonder what was up with the strange guy playing an mmo that didn't want to group who was getting pwned allday.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
The reason i stay in an MMO is the progress i make and the items i earn.
If i would loose things i had spent alot of time earning, i certainly would NOT waste my precious time
doing it all over, no way. I would probably quit and get a RL life.
So basically you are stuck on the treadmill in the game and don't want to quit because "You can't take it with you". Fair enough. I can see how with this outlook you could consider any setback a waste of time but do you really plan to be playing the same MMO for the rest of your life because you don't want to lose what you "earned"
Yes, i want to stay in the MMO for the long haul. I want it to be the RL escape, where i come to visit, do things with friends and guildies, progress my character.
The one part of your statement I don't really get is saying you spent "alot of time earning" your items.
I come from SWG and if you played jedi, it could take hundreds of hours grinding holocrons etc.
Some collections could also take a lot ot time to complete, but the sweet reward was worth it, but i wouldnt do it all over again, should i loose it.
In the current MMO's loot and items come so fast it wouldn't really matter if you lost the item or not you could replace it easily. I'm not equating always losing items with death penalties. I played EQ on Rallos Zek (FFA PVP). Basically there was a chance you could lose your corpse. but you had to either log off dead for a long time, have no friends, or basically be stupid, but it was actually a penalty having to do the "walk of shame" and actually be able to die on that walk from your bind point
In EQ if you just grabbed your backup set out of your bank, got some friends and found your corpse, or if it was pvp you came back at a later time. I'm not saying you should lose all your items (this is a death penalty thread which is a varying scale, FFA loot doesn't work in current games unless items are easily replaceable like in UO IMHO)
And yes SWG was an MMO i respected (never really played it though) I was too involved in EQ at that time where guild politics ruled my sever and where a friends list was used to keep track of where your enemies were. My "spent alot of time earning" was more implied to the Post-Wow set of MMO's where its easy to get items in retrospect to the older MMO's.
I'm no programmer, but given everything we see done in today's games, I can't imagine it would be difficult for a company to set up a "death penalty" server for a given game.
That kinda takes the argument out of it and makes it a personal choice.
Gods forgive my lack of faith in humanity, I can still imagine someone complaining, though.
Or maybe MMO's could just set up "Easy Mode or Casual Mode" type servers & call those with an actual death penalty "Normal Servers"
If you resign those servers to "special" servers than it will have less of an effect in reversing the decline of the MMO genre towards (/shudder) Farmville status....
It wouldn't make sense to call your "normal" server a "normal" server when in reality, they would be outnumbered by "special" servers by about 10 to 1.
Edit: Star Trek Online provided the same kind of system without requiring special servers; by setting "difficulties" which increase the death penalty the higher you go.
In the current MMO's loot and items come so fast it wouldn't really matter if you lost the item or not you could replace it easily.
Ah, yes. One of the unique things were the items "physical" traits; you could use them as deco in your house etc and was worth quite a lot in both credits and respect. Things are different now.
The muste offcourse be a balance of th edeath penalty, if its too much people will never take risks and if its too little why should you care. Its hard to find the sweet spot.
I'm no programmer, but given everything we see done in today's games, I can't imagine it would be difficult for a company to set up a "death penalty" server for a given game.
That kinda takes the argument out of it and makes it a personal choice.
Gods forgive my lack of faith in humanity, I can still imagine someone complaining, though.
Or maybe MMO's could just set up "Easy Mode or Casual Mode" type servers & call those with an actual death penalty "Normal Servers"
If you resign those servers to "special" servers than it will have less of an effect in reversing the decline of the MMO genre towards (/shudder) Farmville status....
It wouldn't make sense to call your "normal" server a "normal" server when in reality, they would be outnumbered by "special" servers by about 10 to 1.
Makes more sense than calling "Farmville" type games "Video Games". If we continue along this route we might as well have all MMO's mimic that "Progress Quest" game ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Quest )
Let people play the game on easy mode, but call it like it is. If i get farther on a video game on "Normal" its worth more than getting the same distance on "Easy"
You are twisting the point, as someone who used to be an adrenaline junkie in my youth I have to disagree. Pushing yourself and indeed placing yourself in dangerous positions makes you feel more alive. So to tie that into online gaming, if you feel a sense of character endangerment you do tend to have more fun. It is more exciting. So be pithy and twist the point but it doesn't change the fact. ;p
Acme I can use a person like you on my crew. Make a Starquest Online trial account, and come be a pirate. This is the only game that actually gives me a rush while I'm boarding, and fighting. There are worse things than death in StarQuest. Seriously who cares about a death penalty when I can capture you and hold you in a brig. Worse I can use crafted drugs on you to lower your attributes so low that you fall over dead from trying to walk. Maybe do the oppsite, and boost your stats so high that you can't die, and drop you off on a random habitable world? You are better off with the death penalty in SQO. That's what the Shiny red self destruct button is for.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Acme I can use a person like you on my crew. Make a Starquest Online trial account, and come be a pirate. This is the only game that actually gives me a rush while I'm boarding, and fighting. There are worse things than death in StarQuest. Seriously who cares about a death penalty when I can capture you and hold you in a brig. Worse I can use crafted drugs on you to lower your attributes so low that you fall over dead from trying to walk. Maybe do the oppsite, and boost your stats so high that you can't die, and drop you off on a random habitable world? You are better off with the death penalty in SQO. That's what the Shiny red self destruct button is for.
You know I've always wanted to see a game like this with graphics like EvE. There are some really fine elements to StarQuest.
I could not be wrong because I was stating my opinion. How exactly are you supposed to be wrong about your own opinion ?
He claimed only WoW gamers and WoW clone gamers would demand reasonable death penalties, and I didnt played neither WoW nor any WoW clone and I still believe it. Because, surprise, thats what makes sense.
If you disagree, fine. I'm not into these endless internet discussions which never lead anywhere.
The problem is that losing gear and XP is just adding grind. It is boring and doesn´t really scare me either.
Perma death is scary but hard to add in computer games, and is so scary that you might stop playing for good when a beloved character dies.
As I see it, locking your character out for a while after death is the only scary thing that doesn´t add a boring grind to dying, and the gods know that we don´t need more boring grinds.
Those of us from the EQ and AC generation, ever sit down and try to swap "war stories" with people who came to MMOs in the WoW generation? It's apples and oranges. I came from Asheron's Call. No night was ever complete without having to help a friend get their corpse, or having to call on your friends to help you.
I'll never forget jumping down into the Hall of Metos acid pit and failing to get through the false wall. So there your corpse, or your friends corpse, lies, there in the acid. And you're scrambling like mad to find someone with enough health to be able to stand the acid damage, and to find enough life mages, or enough Heal Other IV wands to pass out to heal the shit out of this guy so he can jump down there and loot your corpse for you. Remember how your heart raced when you finally found enough people willing to help you? Remember how sweet it felt to finally have your possessions handed back to you? ... What's that? He's a total stranger? Remember how it felt when that nice player made off with your loot like a bandit?
I dont know how the war stories go from World of Warcraft. I played the game for a year or two off and on, and honestly, I can remember only one exciting time. At the end of the beta dozens of people gathered up to try and run to booty bay. Now why was this exciting? Because if you died, there was no chance in hell you would ever get there. You'd respawn back in dwarf land or whereever, and that would be that. Now what was the reward for making it to booty bay? The reward was just getting there. It was surviving the journey.
For people who started in the WoW generation, I'd presume the war stories go like this:
I'll never forget the time I killed 'x' boss, it had a bazillion health so we really had to stay focused and not space out. The first couple times we got 15 mins in and the healer would forgot to press heal or the tank forgot to taunt. So we had to run back in and start over. But I'll never forget how great it felt when RNG rolled my number.
A quick summary of the pro-death penalty group:
"If I'm going to die, I better die in a good spot"
But you cannot really debate this issue with people who have never experienced the old class of MMO. A harsh death penalty either resonates or it doesnt. People either get it, or they dont.
The problem is that losing gear and XP is just adding grind. It is boring and doesn´t really scare me either.
Perma death is scary but hard to add in computer games, and is so scary that you might stop playing for good when a beloved character dies.
As I see it, locking your character out for a while after death is the only scary thing that doesn´t add a boring grind to dying, and the gods know that we don´t need more boring grinds.
Agreed about a thousand percent I remember this from COH which now stands as the only game I never got a single character to max level in. I played it from launch and it didn't take me long to see both how horrible and how cheap xp debt is. While some may think it somehow makes you a better player let me tell you from my experience nothing could be further from the truth.
While my scrapper only had to deal with this in moderation I remember my second favorite toon was a controller (obviously not meant to be solo'd at all at the time) by the time I finally gave up on that game my ccontroller wyndrose was easily a full level in xp debt.
Since that time they at the very least lessened that penalty if not removed it all together but by that time it was too little to late for me as a fan of the game.
I don't have an issue with devs deciding to implement features that will make players think twice before tackling an encounter that could kill but if that system is designed in such a way as to only lengthen the rope that the carrot is attached to then it's not something I will ever support again after having done it in COH.
I think it comes down to having to THINK and let's be real, the average gamer doesn't want that. They want quest finder arrows and color coded NPC's and quests so they know if they'll win or lose even before going out the door.
I can only compare the OP's thoughts with mine from SWG. Before any changes if I died I took maintenance damage on my gear and body. I had to look at the fight prior to starting it and PLAN or I knew I'd get my butt handed to me in a sling. After it went easy-mode it just became the same as running into a door over and over again. Take out 1 NPC, die, rinse, repeat until I was done with no damage to me or my gear.
It wasn't fun having to buy new gear or spend all my playing time in a cantina having my black rot taken care of, but when I didn't need it or got through the quest with very little damage it felt GOOD.
In the early MMO's (I am mostly considering UO, EQ1, etc.) the fear of losing was the driving force behind the excitement of the game: the fear of losing your hard-earned gear and the fear of losing your hard-earned experience/time.
[snip]
Of which I am happy to announce that GW2 has a system in place that damages your gear permanently eventually breaking it from dying too much. Yes there is a minor repair but there is a permanent damage marker on gear which means you can eventually lose gear and have to replace it.
Permadeath is over-rated, it was fine in sandparks but not in anything else.
Comments
Here is the problem with a real death penalty, people avoid tough content so they wont die, they avoid taken on an elite level 23 when they are a 22 because if they die they know the penalty will be to harsh.
so they wait till they are a level 40 to take on a 23 elite, or they avoid them all together
To many peoople tend to corelate dp with how hard a game is. When in fact its just the punishment for failure thats harsh.
The game having a harsh dp doesnt make it tougher or more dificult it just punishes u worse for failing.
The difficulty in a game isnt in the dp but in the ai of the mobs and the bosses in raids and instances. its not in the dp.
In terms of sticking with something, community interaction, fine tuning how to be civil and keep my calm during stressful moments, yes it did make me a better man. I kept those skills when i left the game.
It probably helped me alot more than any MMO where you are basically another fish in the sea & can't even remember the name of the people you grouped with 15 minutes ago cause it doesn't matter. If being impatient, complaining things are too tough, and wanting to coast through life are things that you want to take out of the game. I wish you luck
Soon we will have the 100 million dollar Famville! You know because SWTOR clearly was worth every penny of that. No backdoor shady deals were made at all on that one. It's SO innovative!
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
being afraid to die is no way to live.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
Kinda like how I can make observation on most people from MA ? How ignorance and arrogance displayed during Sox and Pats games ? I completely agree with you. Observation works
This post wins the argument you can all go home now.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Or maybe MMO's could just set up "Easy Mode or Casual Mode" type servers & call those with an actual death penalty "Normal Servers"
If you resign those servers to "special" servers than it will have less of an effect in reversing the decline of the MMO genre towards (/shudder) Farmville status....
That's a very good point. I like the way you think._____________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
To OP: Thats another reasons why I only play sandboxes.
What about the group of lvl 19's who invited him to their group, and because he is anti social refused? They just shrug and beat the content together as intended. Then they laugh and wonder what was up with the strange guy playing an mmo that didn't want to group who was getting pwned allday.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
In the current MMO's loot and items come so fast it wouldn't really matter if you lost the item or not you could replace it easily. I'm not equating always losing items with death penalties. I played EQ on Rallos Zek (FFA PVP). Basically there was a chance you could lose your corpse. but you had to either log off dead for a long time, have no friends, or basically be stupid, but it was actually a penalty having to do the "walk of shame" and actually be able to die on that walk from your bind point
In EQ if you just grabbed your backup set out of your bank, got some friends and found your corpse, or if it was pvp you came back at a later time. I'm not saying you should lose all your items (this is a death penalty thread which is a varying scale, FFA loot doesn't work in current games unless items are easily replaceable like in UO IMHO)
And yes SWG was an MMO i respected (never really played it though) I was too involved in EQ at that time where guild politics ruled my sever and where a friends list was used to keep track of where your enemies were. My "spent alot of time earning" was more implied to the Post-Wow set of MMO's where its easy to get items in retrospect to the older MMO's.
It wouldn't make sense to call your "normal" server a "normal" server when in reality, they would be outnumbered by "special" servers by about 10 to 1.
Edit: Star Trek Online provided the same kind of system without requiring special servers; by setting "difficulties" which increase the death penalty the higher you go.
Ah, yes. One of the unique things were the items "physical" traits; you could use them as deco in your house etc and was worth quite a lot in both credits and respect. Things are different now.
The muste offcourse be a balance of th edeath penalty, if its too much people will never take risks and if its too little why should you care. Its hard to find the sweet spot.
Makes more sense than calling "Farmville" type games "Video Games". If we continue along this route we might as well have all MMO's mimic that "Progress Quest" game ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Quest )
Let people play the game on easy mode, but call it like it is. If i get farther on a video game on "Normal" its worth more than getting the same distance on "Easy"
You are twisting the point, as someone who used to be an adrenaline junkie in my youth I have to disagree. Pushing yourself and indeed placing yourself in dangerous positions makes you feel more alive. So to tie that into online gaming, if you feel a sense of character endangerment you do tend to have more fun. It is more exciting. So be pithy and twist the point but it doesn't change the fact. ;p
Well, go play Eve Online
Acme I can use a person like you on my crew. Make a Starquest Online trial account, and come be a pirate. This is the only game that actually gives me a rush while I'm boarding, and fighting. There are worse things than death in StarQuest. Seriously who cares about a death penalty when I can capture you and hold you in a brig. Worse I can use crafted drugs on you to lower your attributes so low that you fall over dead from trying to walk. Maybe do the oppsite, and boost your stats so high that you can't die, and drop you off on a random habitable world? You are better off with the death penalty in SQO. That's what the Shiny red self destruct button is for.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
You know I've always wanted to see a game like this with graphics like EvE. There are some really fine elements to StarQuest.
I could not be wrong because I was stating my opinion. How exactly are you supposed to be wrong about your own opinion ?
He claimed only WoW gamers and WoW clone gamers would demand reasonable death penalties, and I didnt played neither WoW nor any WoW clone and I still believe it. Because, surprise, thats what makes sense.
If you disagree, fine. I'm not into these endless internet discussions which never lead anywhere.
The problem is that losing gear and XP is just adding grind. It is boring and doesn´t really scare me either.
Perma death is scary but hard to add in computer games, and is so scary that you might stop playing for good when a beloved character dies.
As I see it, locking your character out for a while after death is the only scary thing that doesn´t add a boring grind to dying, and the gods know that we don´t need more boring grinds.
Those of us from the EQ and AC generation, ever sit down and try to swap "war stories" with people who came to MMOs in the WoW generation? It's apples and oranges. I came from Asheron's Call. No night was ever complete without having to help a friend get their corpse, or having to call on your friends to help you.
I'll never forget jumping down into the Hall of Metos acid pit and failing to get through the false wall. So there your corpse, or your friends corpse, lies, there in the acid. And you're scrambling like mad to find someone with enough health to be able to stand the acid damage, and to find enough life mages, or enough Heal Other IV wands to pass out to heal the shit out of this guy so he can jump down there and loot your corpse for you. Remember how your heart raced when you finally found enough people willing to help you? Remember how sweet it felt to finally have your possessions handed back to you? ... What's that? He's a total stranger? Remember how it felt when that nice player made off with your loot like a bandit?
I dont know how the war stories go from World of Warcraft. I played the game for a year or two off and on, and honestly, I can remember only one exciting time. At the end of the beta dozens of people gathered up to try and run to booty bay. Now why was this exciting? Because if you died, there was no chance in hell you would ever get there. You'd respawn back in dwarf land or whereever, and that would be that. Now what was the reward for making it to booty bay? The reward was just getting there. It was surviving the journey.
For people who started in the WoW generation, I'd presume the war stories go like this:
I'll never forget the time I killed 'x' boss, it had a bazillion health so we really had to stay focused and not space out. The first couple times we got 15 mins in and the healer would forgot to press heal or the tank forgot to taunt. So we had to run back in and start over. But I'll never forget how great it felt when RNG rolled my number.
A quick summary of the pro-death penalty group:
"If I'm going to die, I better die in a good spot"
But you cannot really debate this issue with people who have never experienced the old class of MMO. A harsh death penalty either resonates or it doesnt. People either get it, or they dont.
Agreed about a thousand percent I remember this from COH which now stands as the only game I never got a single character to max level in. I played it from launch and it didn't take me long to see both how horrible and how cheap xp debt is. While some may think it somehow makes you a better player let me tell you from my experience nothing could be further from the truth.
While my scrapper only had to deal with this in moderation I remember my second favorite toon was a controller (obviously not meant to be solo'd at all at the time) by the time I finally gave up on that game my ccontroller wyndrose was easily a full level in xp debt.
Since that time they at the very least lessened that penalty if not removed it all together but by that time it was too little to late for me as a fan of the game.
I don't have an issue with devs deciding to implement features that will make players think twice before tackling an encounter that could kill but if that system is designed in such a way as to only lengthen the rope that the carrot is attached to then it's not something I will ever support again after having done it in COH.
I think it comes down to having to THINK and let's be real, the average gamer doesn't want that. They want quest finder arrows and color coded NPC's and quests so they know if they'll win or lose even before going out the door.
I can only compare the OP's thoughts with mine from SWG. Before any changes if I died I took maintenance damage on my gear and body. I had to look at the fight prior to starting it and PLAN or I knew I'd get my butt handed to me in a sling. After it went easy-mode it just became the same as running into a door over and over again. Take out 1 NPC, die, rinse, repeat until I was done with no damage to me or my gear.
It wasn't fun having to buy new gear or spend all my playing time in a cantina having my black rot taken care of, but when I didn't need it or got through the quest with very little damage it felt GOOD.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Of which I am happy to announce that GW2 has a system in place that damages your gear permanently eventually breaking it from dying too much. Yes there is a minor repair but there is a permanent damage marker on gear which means you can eventually lose gear and have to replace it.
Permadeath is over-rated, it was fine in sandparks but not in anything else.