I agree that no powerhouse company gobbling megacorp machine like EA will ever make a good sandbox MMO. The argument that there is no room for a small well developed sandbox game to thrive is disproven by EvE's success. The fact that some argue against the idea that one should even want to play a different type of game than what they enjoy is just a sign of how ignorant we are becoming as a society.
You forgot selfish, self centered, and self entitled and spoiled.
no developer is going to be able to get funding for a game that would fill a niche in the mmo market that caters to hardcore mmo players
sad but true
Agreed, I've grown to accept that over the few years as I kept waiting and waiting. You either except it or go back to playing text based online rpgs or table top ones. Basically you keep your eyes open incase one does come along, otherwise you don't spend much time hoping for one. I'm keeping one eye on Goblinworks because there are those elements from the older days of fun in multi-player online rpg in what they are doing. Hopefully they can get the funding and make it to a point where we can play.
I have never been one who cared much for getting to the lvl cap in any game. I really do not understand the mind of people who rush to the lvl cap in all games. Noone is gona care who hits the lvl cap first be it today tomorr next week or a year from now. It more about the fun along the way.
I am betting it is mainly the console generation introduced to MMORPG's by WoW.
I've had a console since I was 2 years old. It's just bad parentling by recent generations of parrents. I'm sorry young gamers we have failed you. We have taught you to rush through life, and that working towards a goal is not what you should do, but instead complain and whine that things are too hard until they are done for you. Once again I apologize for my generation and the previous one before that. We have failed to teach you that the journey is the reward, and not the destination.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
I have never been one who cared much for getting to the lvl cap in any game. I really do not understand the mind of people who rush to the lvl cap in all games. Noone is gona care who hits the lvl cap first be it today tomorr next week or a year from now. It more about the fun along the way.
Who says YOUR way is better than THEIR way?
There are MANY things you can do in a MMO like WOW (leveling, raiding, dungeons, profession, collecting pets, pvp ....). If someone enjoys the level cap activities more, who say that is not MORE fun for THEM than leveling?
If you like to level, you can always do that slowly and leveling up alts (which many people do).
But then how would I skip most content in new MMOs by death-leap-frogging past mobs so I can get to 50 quicker then itch and moan that there is nothing to do?!?!!
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Are those two instances you used as an example worth the time and effort it takes to beat them? It sounds to me like people don't complete them because they probably don't have loot that is worth it. If they were worth completing you woul dhave raiding guilds on them 24/7.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
You're completely right of course. But, these threads tend to go only one way.
Those that have played MMOs with risk vs reward AND WoW clones will say that a death penalty brings them into the game, adds tension, makes things memorable and strategic, ect ect.
And those who have ONLY played WoW clones will go on and on about "But you lose money!" or "But dying already sucks!" and emphatically argue that their way is better, even though they've never played any other way, and have no perspective.
Same thing goes when you bring up a non instanced MMO. Hell, some of them say "MMOs can't work without instancing!" or even more hilariously "someone will steal all my kills and grief me!" (but note, if that problem actually existed, it'd exist outside instances too). They just don't understand and cannot comprehend how an MMO would work unless its a WoW clone.
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Are those two instances you used as an example worth the time and effort it takes to beat them? It sounds to me like people don't complete them because they probably don't have loot that is worth it. If they were worth completing you woul dhave raiding guilds on them 24/7.
Well, if being in such a exclusive club, and beating such a difficult challenge, is NOT worth it, then i would surmise that the statement "Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure" is false. Obviously these two raids are very difficult by any measurement.
You're completely right of course. But, these threads tend to go only one way.
Those that have played MMOs with risk vs reward AND WoW clones will say that a death penalty brings them into the game, adds tension, makes things memorable and strategic, ect ect.
And those who have ONLY played WoW clones will go on and on about "But you lose money!" or "But dying already sucks!" and emphatically argue that their way is better, even though they've never played any other way, and have no perspective.
Same thing goes when you bring up a non instanced MMO. Hell, some of them say "MMOs can't work without instancing!" or even more hilariously "someone will steal all my kills and grief me!" (but note, if that problem actually existed, it'd exist outside instances too). They just don't understand and cannot comprehend how an MMO would work unless its a WoW clone.
Well, you knwo that the WOW design is a response for ALL THE COMPLAINTS about EQ right?
I played EQ since beta, UO beta before that, Kingdom of Drakkar before that .. and MY PERSPECTIVE is that WOW is a much better GAME than EQ because of instances, no forced down-time, no harsh penalty, faster travel time, and MORE choices of how to play.
I have never been one who cared much for getting to the lvl cap in any game. I really do not understand the mind of people who rush to the lvl cap in all games. Noone is gona care who hits the lvl cap first be it today tomorr next week or a year from now. It more about the fun along the way.
Who says YOUR way is better than THEIR way?
There are MANY things you can do in a MMO like WOW (leveling, raiding, dungeons, profession, collecting pets, pvp ....). If someone enjoys the level cap activities more, who say that is not MORE fun for THEM than leveling?
If you like to level, you can always do that slowly and leveling up alts (which many people do).
The beauty of it .. is that there are CHOICES.
The choices are sadly lacking since more and more developers cater to the game style play that you are apparently fond of from the posts I am reading in this thread. So no, really there isn't much choice. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it so much with such longing. ;p
But casual players wont: They cant afford to die, because they only want to invest a limited amount of time into a game and get the best out of it - aka, no downtime etc.
How do you think this will merge with the hardcore players who see much more in gaming?
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Are those two instances you used as an example worth the time and effort it takes to beat them? It sounds to me like people don't complete them because they probably don't have loot that is worth it. If they were worth completing you woul dhave raiding guilds on them 24/7.
Actually those would be the top raid instances at the time with the best loot so form that angle they would have definetly been worth beating. However, this does not meant that they are fun to beat or that they are fun to repeat week after week. I loved raiding for the challenge and hated it for the repetition and gear grind.
As far as difficulty goes, most people prefer challenges that are within their skill range with the ocasional way-out-there challenge just for the heck of it. eg. I would love to play chess against a Grandmaster but would hate it if these were the only opponents I got to face.
The choices are sadly lacking since more and more developers cater to the game style play that you are apparently fond of from the posts I am reading in this thread. So no, really there isn't much choice. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it so much with such longing. ;p
No choices? ... how about Eve, darkfall, fallen earth, .....
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Are those two instances you used as an example worth the time and effort it takes to beat them? It sounds to me like people don't complete them because they probably don't have loot that is worth it. If they were worth completing you woul dhave raiding guilds on them 24/7.
Well, if being in such a exclusive club, and beating such a difficult challenge, is NOT worth it, then i would surmise that the statement "Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure" is false. Obviously these two raids are very difficult by any measurement.
A statement like that really has to be qualified with 'while participating in a fun activity'. There are plenty of dificult actitivies I will not want to participate in because I find them unfun or just plain stupid. I will not participate in a hotdog eating contest or a drinking contest or a drive-while-blindfolded contest. That does not mean that I do not like to challenge myself in areas I find entertaining.
The choices are sadly lacking since more and more developers cater to the game style play that you are apparently fond of from the posts I am reading in this thread. So no, really there isn't much choice. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it so much with such longing. ;p
No choices? ... how about Eve, darkfall, fallen earth, .....
EvE online is a good game, but the combat is lacking for me. Darkfall, on the other hand, is the opposite. Excellent, extremely fluid combat, possibly the best combat of any MMORPG currently in existence. But there's no substance whatsoever beyond that.
Fallen earth isn't bad, and it's closer to what I want, but it's going f2p from what I heard and I'm not into that at all. The community is small, too.
No, the choices are limited, and I think the real point is there is no polished, high budget MMORPG for people who want a taste of a more realistic, harsh world.
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Are those two instances you used as an example worth the time and effort it takes to beat them? It sounds to me like people don't complete them because they probably don't have loot that is worth it. If they were worth completing you woul dhave raiding guilds on them 24/7.
Well, if being in such a exclusive club, and beating such a difficult challenge, is NOT worth it, then i would surmise that the statement "Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure" is false. Obviously these two raids are very difficult by any measurement.
A statement like that really has to be qualified with 'while participating in a fun activity'. There are plenty of dificult actitivies I will not want to participate in because I find them unfun or just plain stupid. I will not participate in a hotdog eating contest or a drinking contest or a drive-while-blindfolded contest. That does not mean that I do not like to challenge myself in areas I find entertaining.
LOL .. if you add enough qualifiers, anything will be true.
If you don't like to co-op with a raid team to defeat difficult encounters, why are you talking about challenging MMO PvE content? Is there any OTHER kind of difficult PvE MMO content? Difficult raid and dungeons is what EQ is all about. I guess you do not find EQ fun either?
The choices are sadly lacking since more and more developers cater to the game style play that you are apparently fond of from the posts I am reading in this thread. So no, really there isn't much choice. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it so much with such longing. ;p
No choices? ... how about Eve, darkfall, fallen earth, .....
EvE online is a good game, but the combat is lacking for me. Darkfall, on the other hand, is the opposite. Excellent, extremely fluid combat, possibly the best combat of any MMORPG currently in existance. But there's no substance whatsoever beyond that.
Fallen earth isn't bad, and it's closer to what I want, but it's going f2p from what I heard and I'm not into that at all. The community is small, too.
No, the choices are limited, and I think the real point is tehre is no polished, high budget MMORPG for people who want a taste of a more realistic, harsh world.
So demanding. Well, if you want to narrow down choices like that, then choices are limited for any genre.
I want a PvE casual MMO with a modern setting that adds a dash of cyber sci-fi-ness ... heck .. my choices are so limited .. i better go home and read.
The choices are sadly lacking since more and more developers cater to the game style play that you are apparently fond of from the posts I am reading in this thread. So no, really there isn't much choice. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it so much with such longing. ;p
No choices? ... how about Eve, darkfall, fallen earth, .....
EvE online is a good game, but the combat is lacking for me. Darkfall, on the other hand, is the opposite. Excellent, extremely fluid combat, possibly the best combat of any MMORPG currently in existance. But there's no substance whatsoever beyond that.
Fallen earth isn't bad, and it's closer to what I want, but it's going f2p from what I heard and I'm not into that at all. The community is small, too.
No, the choices are limited, and I think the real point is tehre is no polished, high budget MMORPG for people who want a taste of a more realistic, harsh world.
So demanding. Well, if you want to narrow down choices like that, then choices are limited for any genre.
I want a PvE casual MMO with a modern setting that adds a dash of cyber sci-fi-ness ... heck .. my choices are so limited .. i better go home and read.
You have your genre, in spades. Just not the flavor and style (exact setting of cyber sci-fi).
That's not the same, at all.
We'd be happy if we even had one AAA hardcore sandbox mmo. We don't. EvE is "close" but not quite, because the combat is about as dull as it gets and it's not really a sandbox for the solo or small group (try to claim any system with just a few pals.. see how that goes lol).
We'd be happy if we even had one AAA hardcore sandbox mmo. We don't. EvE is "close" but not quite, because the combat is about as dull as it gets and it's not really a sandbox for the solo or small group (try to claim any system with just a few pals.. see how that goes lol).
Sure. Keep complaining. May be you should examine alternate entertainment options instead of just whine. I doubt your dream game will just magically appear because you post on an internet forum.
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Questioning this obvious fact is sort of like implying that WOW players would enjoy the game more if victory was 100% assured every time.
They wouldn't. Clearly.
Instead, they want a game involving challenge and the risk of failure.
Note that "risk of failure" is not necessarily synonymous with "99% chance of failure", which is closer to what you're describing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
you want a game with risk of death, play a perma-death game. there are lots of them, just very low pop cause alot of players now days do not want to perma-die they want WoWish game play, as well alot of games will not rish perma-death, as you have people throw out hacker 24/7 it will cause no end of problems for a provider if half the community is QQing about being killed
im playing haven and hearth which is a FFA perma death game. its been running for years seems to do alright just under 1k player pop. wont have the same player base you have in WoW or EQ.. where you had close to 100k pop in 1 area. but ofcourse alot of players dont like perma death either do to the loss of all the hard work in the build of the toon.
but frankly i find that makes it more of a challange as people are less in the mood to rambo or throw them selfs at instant death do to them actually dying
but frankly i find that makes it more of a challange as people are less in the mood to rambo or throw them selfs at instant death do to them actually dying
That is the problem too. Humans are known to be generally risk averse. So you put up a big penalty and they won't do anything.
I would MUCH rather with no penalty and everyone is happy to wipe a few times to try an interesting fight.
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Are those two instances you used as an example worth the time and effort it takes to beat them? It sounds to me like people don't complete them because they probably don't have loot that is worth it. If they were worth completing you woul dhave raiding guilds on them 24/7.
He has no data about that, as he has been told numerous times, he just has the number of people who have completed them (sunwell before wotlk, obviously), NOT how many people tryed, NOT how many people got to the middle, NOT how many people got to the last boss, NOT how many people have loot from them, NOT how many people will ever want to complete the second one now, that they have one more easy way to do it.
Obviously, if you dont complete a instance, killing ALL the bosses, it is not fun, you get no loot and it makes the instance useless...
Comments
You forgot selfish, self centered, and self entitled and spoiled.
Agreed, I've grown to accept that over the few years as I kept waiting and waiting. You either except it or go back to playing text based online rpgs or table top ones. Basically you keep your eyes open incase one does come along, otherwise you don't spend much time hoping for one. I'm keeping one eye on Goblinworks because there are those elements from the older days of fun in multi-player online rpg in what they are doing. Hopefully they can get the funding and make it to a point where we can play.
It's said a couple of times before: Darkfall.
I've had a console since I was 2 years old. It's just bad parentling by recent generations of parrents. I'm sorry young gamers we have failed you. We have taught you to rush through life, and that working towards a goal is not what you should do, but instead complain and whine that things are too hard until they are done for you. Once again I apologize for my generation and the previous one before that. We have failed to teach you that the journey is the reward, and not the destination.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Surely you have some statistical evidence of that?
There are PLENTY of evidence showing otherwise. Only 2% of the players even finished Sunwell. Less than 1% of 1% of players finished dragon soul hard mode.
Blizz, who has PLENTY of player data, decides to LOWER the difficulties of the raid month by month.
Everything points to players want to progress, and not wipe after wipe for months.
Who says YOUR way is better than THEIR way?
There are MANY things you can do in a MMO like WOW (leveling, raiding, dungeons, profession, collecting pets, pvp ....). If someone enjoys the level cap activities more, who say that is not MORE fun for THEM than leveling?
If you like to level, you can always do that slowly and leveling up alts (which many people do).
The beauty of it .. is that there are CHOICES.
It would be nice to be afraid to die again...
But then how would I skip most content in new MMOs by death-leap-frogging past mobs so I can get to 50 quicker then itch and moan that there is nothing to do?!?!!
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Are those two instances you used as an example worth the time and effort it takes to beat them? It sounds to me like people don't complete them because they probably don't have loot that is worth it. If they were worth completing you woul dhave raiding guilds on them 24/7.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Well, if being in such a exclusive club, and beating such a difficult challenge, is NOT worth it, then i would surmise that the statement "Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure" is false. Obviously these two raids are very difficult by any measurement.
The choices are sadly lacking since more and more developers cater to the game style play that you are apparently fond of from the posts I am reading in this thread. So no, really there isn't much choice. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it so much with such longing. ;p
But casual players wont: They cant afford to die, because they only want to invest a limited amount of time into a game and get the best out of it - aka, no downtime etc.
How do you think this will merge with the hardcore players who see much more in gaming?
Actually those would be the top raid instances at the time with the best loot so form that angle they would have definetly been worth beating. However, this does not meant that they are fun to beat or that they are fun to repeat week after week. I loved raiding for the challenge and hated it for the repetition and gear grind.
As far as difficulty goes, most people prefer challenges that are within their skill range with the ocasional way-out-there challenge just for the heck of it. eg. I would love to play chess against a Grandmaster but would hate it if these were the only opponents I got to face.
No choices? ... how about Eve, darkfall, fallen earth, .....
A statement like that really has to be qualified with 'while participating in a fun activity'. There are plenty of dificult actitivies I will not want to participate in because I find them unfun or just plain stupid. I will not participate in a hotdog eating contest or a drinking contest or a drive-while-blindfolded contest. That does not mean that I do not like to challenge myself in areas I find entertaining.
EvE online is a good game, but the combat is lacking for me. Darkfall, on the other hand, is the opposite. Excellent, extremely fluid combat, possibly the best combat of any MMORPG currently in existence. But there's no substance whatsoever beyond that.
Fallen earth isn't bad, and it's closer to what I want, but it's going f2p from what I heard and I'm not into that at all. The community is small, too.
No, the choices are limited, and I think the real point is there is no polished, high budget MMORPG for people who want a taste of a more realistic, harsh world.
LOL .. if you add enough qualifiers, anything will be true.
If you don't like to co-op with a raid team to defeat difficult encounters, why are you talking about challenging MMO PvE content? Is there any OTHER kind of difficult PvE MMO content? Difficult raid and dungeons is what EQ is all about. I guess you do not find EQ fun either?
So demanding. Well, if you want to narrow down choices like that, then choices are limited for any genre.
I want a PvE casual MMO with a modern setting that adds a dash of cyber sci-fi-ness ... heck .. my choices are so limited .. i better go home and read.
You have your genre, in spades. Just not the flavor and style (exact setting of cyber sci-fi).
That's not the same, at all.
We'd be happy if we even had one AAA hardcore sandbox mmo. We don't. EvE is "close" but not quite, because the combat is about as dull as it gets and it's not really a sandbox for the solo or small group (try to claim any system with just a few pals.. see how that goes lol).
Sure. Keep complaining. May be you should examine alternate entertainment options instead of just whine. I doubt your dream game will just magically appear because you post on an internet forum.
Questioning this obvious fact is sort of like implying that WOW players would enjoy the game more if victory was 100% assured every time.
They wouldn't. Clearly.
Instead, they want a game involving challenge and the risk of failure.
Note that "risk of failure" is not necessarily synonymous with "99% chance of failure", which is closer to what you're describing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
you want a game with risk of death, play a perma-death game. there are lots of them, just very low pop cause alot of players now days do not want to perma-die they want WoWish game play, as well alot of games will not rish perma-death, as you have people throw out hacker 24/7 it will cause no end of problems for a provider if half the community is QQing about being killed
im playing haven and hearth which is a FFA perma death game. its been running for years seems to do alright just under 1k player pop. wont have the same player base you have in WoW or EQ.. where you had close to 100k pop in 1 area. but ofcourse alot of players dont like perma death either do to the loss of all the hard work in the build of the toon.
but frankly i find that makes it more of a challange as people are less in the mood to rambo or throw them selfs at instant death do to them actually dying
That is the problem too. Humans are known to be generally risk averse. So you put up a big penalty and they won't do anything.
I would MUCH rather with no penalty and everyone is happy to wipe a few times to try an interesting fight.
He has no data about that, as he has been told numerous times, he just has the number of people who have completed them (sunwell before wotlk, obviously), NOT how many people tryed, NOT how many people got to the middle, NOT how many people got to the last boss, NOT how many people have loot from them, NOT how many people will ever want to complete the second one now, that they have one more easy way to do it.
Obviously, if you dont complete a instance, killing ALL the bosses, it is not fun, you get no loot and it makes the instance useless...
Flame on!