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Elemental attunement and the new trait system
Gilcroix
Member UncommonPosts: 263
From what i understand you get a total of 70 trait points at level 80.
Source: http://www.necrobator.com/features/a-closer-look-at-necromancer-traits/
The whole advantage to the elemental atunement system is that you get to use 20 skills in combat as opposed to the 10 of weapon switching classes. (not including heals,utilities,and elite) I don't think the new trait system works well with attunements, infact i think it may even turn it into a burden rather than an advantage. Here is why.
There are 5 trait lines (fire,water,air,earth, and arcane) with 3 tiers to them (adept,master,and grandmaster). After looking at some of the traits i am going to proceed under the assumption that grandmaster are the best and you are going to want them. That being said, I would expect people to go 30 30 10 0 0. This will make 2 of your attunements very powerful, but it will also make it so you do not want to use the other 2. So now you're esentially the same as all the weapon switching class right? Wrong! They get to pick their weapon skills 5 at a time. You have to pick all 10 at once. So a warrior may pick a 2h sword for close combat and then a rifle for range so he cannot be kited. Now if you like duel daggers on your elementalist and your range is very short, you can probably be kited around by most classes. Because you have no way of switching to a weapon with more range. Daggers has 2 skills that will get you closer to your target but again they seem to be short range. So a ranger kiting you with a longbow may still beable to keep his distance without you ever hitting him. Using a staff would negate all of this but it was the only weapon where i didn't like the skills and don't want to use.
This is all speculation of course and i won't know til i can play. It just seems like elementalist got screwed on their special profession ability. Other classes can look into traits to find the 2 weapons they use and go down those lines and they are golden. Elementalist though won't have the amount of trait points it will take to make all 4 attunements equally viable. Thus taking away any advantage of the attunements. It seems it would have been better if they gave us 2 attunement slots that can be swapped out when out of combat. Then just let us have 2 weapon sets like the other classes. Then we'd have 20 skills that were all viable.
I really liked the elementalist class but then i got this stuck in my head. So if someone could come tell me how completely wrong I am and why, i will sleep better tonight. 
Comments
I can see your concern but I don't think it's anything you should be losing sleep over.
Investing 30 30 10 0 0 gets you 7 of the passive bonuses (adept, master, grandmaster for two lines and adept for another. It also gets you 7 Major points of your choosing).
The thing is though that generalizing gives you the same number of bonuses. If you went 20 20 10 10 10, you'd have 5 adept and 2 master bonuses, and still 7 Major points, you'd just have them spread out.
It might be better to specialize in some cases (if Grandmaster bonuses are clearly better, or if there's synergy (maxing crit and bonuses on crit for instance), but it might not. The information is still incomplete and it's a little much to try to take in all at once.
One thing I noticed looking at the trees is that it doesn't look like there's too much overly specific stuff. Like even if you put 30 points in Fire for instance, you'll probably want to be spending most of your time in Fire, but you're still going to get value out of your other trees. Their skills are still going to recharge in the background. Maybe you don't focus on them for damage, but for speed boosts, stuns, etc, then switch back.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but I'm seeing a lot of versatility here.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
There is also the element of role-playing to take into consideration when thinking about characters. Previously (before the refinements on the traits system) there was a lot of concerns from people who RP mages, that you were going to end up forced to swap your attunements around all the time just to be viable as an Ele.
The traits make it so you can specialize and be just as effective as someone who swaps all the time.
I sure hope that RP concerns do not supercede game play balance.
I share the OP's concern. I will hold my tongue until I see more details on Elementalist traits.
details - here . http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_elementalist_traits
Now tongue talk.
Doesn't look like there is anything to worry about
My worry is the opposite. That the person switching all the time will not be viable. Some of the grandmaster traits seemed pretty good. Fire has one that gives 10% damage bonus when in fire attunement also one that gives a might buff everytime you cast a fire spell. I am just wondering if these bonuses are going to be too good to give up and make you not wanna switch to keep these bonuses.
Regardless of traits my weapon range concerns remain. It seems you put yourself at a disadvantage by not using the long range staff. I hope the shorter range spells atleast do more damage.
To be honest mate, the new traits work best with th elementalis. I also like the old trait system more, but the elementalist play like the original from GW now. It fit perfectly. You specialise in 2 attunements, but still have another 2 with default damage/effects.
The biggest problem is the "tree" structure of the trait system and fixing weapons to speific path
The traits make the elementalist stronger in some elements, but it doesn't make them weaker in others relative to the 'baseline'
So i don't think it matters at all really in the long run. I understand what you mean that a weapon based class can go into a battle 'fully specced' in what they're acrrying, but the ele basically has what they're good at PLUS some extra variety 
Thanks for the link. A quick review of the info in the link does not assuage my fears, but that's most likely due to my ignorance of the new trait system. There are a few things that are still unclear.
1) Are Major Traits slotted in Adept, Master and Grandmaster are of equivalent efficacy?
2) What are the minor traits for Master and Grandmaster for Air, Water and Arcane Power?
The Grandmaster minor traits for the Fire and Earth lines do not sound mind blowing. If the answer to question 1 is yes, then I shouldn't have any problems with the system. But once the answer to question 2 are must have minor traits then we have a problem.
OK but is that variety you are getting worth anything? More specifically is it worth not being able to swap weapons and improve your range when you need it? I don't think it is. The spells may not get weaker but they are weaker than those you have traited. So you are actually becoming weaker once switching to them.
Sorry to be so argumentative but i just don't see how this is as good as say the necro profession ability or any of the others for that matter. The 10 extra skills just aren't worth much and the weapon swapping that they took away really hurts you. (unless you always use staff)
1) yes
2) ups i don't know-
but the point is as far as i see it, that you in most line can spec for incresing an element, or chosse something that helps no matter what element you are casting from. With that freedom the speccing , is going to really varied. Though offcause some people will just go all fire to resemble a firemage.
That's a poor assumption. Looking at the fire traits alone, the first minor one seems like one of the best traits in the entire line, and it appears to work under any attunement. 20/20/10/10/10 looks like a quite valid build on many classes. The traits themselves look far from finished, but it doesn't look at all like most systems where all the "good stuff" is only at the end. It looks like you can even take the major traits in any order you want, meaning that Internal Fire, the one that improves damage when in Fire Attunement, can be taken with only 10 points in Fire Magic.
If your spec is 30/30/10/0/0, you're not increasing your toughness or vitality by very much, and your healing and boon duration will be quite poor. Sure, you'll deal tons of damage, but when they catch you, you're going down fast. The attributes don't lend themselves very well to min/max, so even if you wanted to go all out on fire, you might want to split up the other points a bit.
Of course, this is mostly speculation, too.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
If there is no difference between the traits you can take at adept and the ones you can take at grandmaster. I agree then 20 20 10 10 10 would be viable. I was assuming that the higher you went the better they would get, because thats what i am used to seeing in other games. Having the titles is misleading if adept and grandmaster are all the same abilities. May as well just call them tiers 1-3.
Hey guys.
Maybe I'm missing something here, because I'm not sure what the issue is. You earn trait points as you level, one per level after level 10, but you can also earn 20 from tomes, for a total of 90. So, that's assumption that is wrong in this thread, that you only can have 70 trait points.
In addition to earning the trait points via leveling and trait tomes, you unlock the various tiers at your skill trainer. The tiers breaks are at levels 11, 40, and 60, with up to to 10 points per tier.
The second thing I think you might be missing is that you can refund your trait points and then redistribute them outside of combat. So, you can completely change your trait builds at will when not in the combat state, not just which traits you have slotted, but the point distributions as well.
Only a few of your Major Traits are element specific in their effects. i.e. Water Attunement traits effect skills of all attunements, unless otherwise specified. Of the fixed, minor traits, it appears that the Grandmaster Tier minor traits may not even be element specific. (The two we know are "Fire Grandmaster: Burning Rage, Do 5% more damage to a burning foe"; and "Enduring Damage; +10% damage when your endurance is full.)"
So, unless you only slot traits that are element specific, most trait builds are not going to render the off traited attunements useless. In fact, some of those skills may greatly benefit from traits from other attunement lines. Besides, niether of the Grandmaster Tier attunements we know so far are so spectacular that you are losing out on a universally beneficial trait if you don't take them. They seem to be more build specific, than element specific.
This is good because it points towards a truly diverse trait system, rather than one likely to force cookie cutter builds where everyone sees the need to take the grand master tier in which ever traitline is deemed the most powerful.
The Minor Traits are just that, Minor. They give a little added bonus for reaching certain levels of trait points in a single line, but they are not the main motivation for spending X trait points in a line. Opening up Major trait slots for the traits you wish to slot, while bearing in mind the passive bonuses provided by each point spent in each trait line, will be much more important than the Grand Master minor traits, unless your build concept is designed to take advantage of what a particular minor trait provides.
Is it possible to make builds that completely focus on element specific traits and thus make swapping to non-traited attunements less than ideal? Sure, but you will understand that when you creat the build and I assume there will be a strategic reason for doing so that counterbalances that negative. However, I'm sure there will also be plenty of builds that provide more balanced benefits to your skills from all attunements. There will probably also be builds that will require skills from all four elements to reach their full potential.
If your build concept creates periods of great weakness in certain situations, you may want to try a different build, or only use it going into combat where you are fairly certain you aren't going to expose your Achilles heel.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Maybe you need to look at a few other classes before getting doom and gloom. I think you will find every class has its own hair pulling moment when looking at trait builds. I still see the Ele as one of the most versitile classes overall.
To me what is key, is that you can change traits on the fly to provide a style or role for the moment. Although in match play, you use what you go in with, everywhere else is flexible to change. Another key issue is those areas you do not increase with trait enhancments, doesn't mean they are at a major loss of function. Plus, utility skills can and will fill gaps in places where you lack key skills in you trait layout.
Sit down and try to work out a trait skill witha thief, talk about gut wrenching, sure you have weapon swaps, but once you trait a certain way, you pretty much have to dance with the girl you brought.
To OP,
the whole point of the elemenatlist is to be very versatile. adapting to each situation.
sure, if you trait into for example; fire. Then your fire dps is going to be high and you will mainly use fire.
Doesnt meant you cant use the attunment you have no points in.
Earth attunement with daggers:
Magnetic surge: Pull yourself to your foe with a magnetic force
closes the gap problem solved.
Air has a shield that stuns people when they attack
If you dont utilize all the attunments your not maximizing your potential
Thank for all the info guys. I think i have a better understanding of the trait system now. Which was my main reason for making this thread. I was sure there were things i wasn't seeing. I still think being stuck with only one range for spells kinda sucks though.
Unfortunately we don't know the range of magnetic surge or ride the lightning. If it is short range like the rest of the dagger spells, lets say 25 yards, but a ranger can kite you at 100 yards. It doesn't really solve the problem.
Utility skills aren't weapon specific which is where you need to compensate for it. Flame leap, Lightning leap for example can close the distance. As for kiting with rangers, well that is the whole point, every class does have it's strengths and weaknesses. Rangers are going to have range advantages over everyone if they are bow armed. Get used to that
NP.
Just remember it isn't like GW1, where every point in that attunement strengthened skills of that attunement. Your trait points provide specific passive bonuses per point, but there are not attunement specific.
As far as a daggers build, if you are worried about being kited or not having ranged attacks when needed, you could always take Conjure Frost as one of your Utility skills, in case you find the dagger/dagger mobility and control skills aren't sufficient. Frost Bow has two ranged attacks that chill the opponent when they hit, reducing their movement speed and skill recharge rates by 66% for a short time. Very useful if you are worried about being kited and useful even outside of anti-kiting situations.
(In fact, that's one thing that may not have come up in the discussion. The Conjure utility spells conjure elemental weapons for you and other allies and these weapons each provide their own weapon based skills in place of your standard weapon choice. Magnetic Shield, Frost Bow, Lava Axe and Lighting Hammer each provide you, (and your friends) with their own five weapon skills. An Elementalist conjuration build could conveivably have acces to up to 35 skills if you took three Conjures as your utility. Very similar to the various kits an Engineer can take. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conjure).
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
^ yep, utility is the ad hoc solution to many shortcomings
If I'm understanding it correctly, if you put 5 points into a tree you get the Adept trait, 15 points you get the Master trait, and 25 points you get the Grandmaster trait. But you can also get to put any of the Major traits of your choice in the slots you unlock at 10, 20 and 30.
Minor
Adept
Fiery Aura
You have a 20% to cause burning when ever a foe attacks you.
Master
Sunspot
You damage at your location when you attune to fire.
Grandmaster
Burning Rage
Do 5% more damage to a burning foe.
So at 10 you can slot Internal Fire (the 10% damage boost while in fire attunement) and move on to other trees. You'll have Fiery Aura but miss out on Sunspot and Burning Rage (and all the other Majors you won't have slots for)
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Yes, they do. A dagger/dagger Ele is one of the highest burst classes in the game. I plan to run dagger/dagger and staff, to suit whatever situation I find myself in. At the end of the day, traiting heavily into fire for example, is going to give bonuses to fire regardless of what weapon you have equipped. Bear in mind, each of the attunements serve a different purpose. Fire is heavy damage/AoE, Air is single target damage and alot of boons/conditions, Water is support/control, and earth looks to be defensive and also posesses some decent damage. Bascially, you're gonna have to trait into specialization. Like some others have said, if you're 30 fire/30 earth/10 arcane, you may not be amazing in water attunment but you still have access to those abilities. They just aren't as specialized as your other lines.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
Lol, as an active PvPer in the current GW1 I don't see this is a problem. Where you spec won't force you into just using two attunements, their damage is not gimped because you specced into a specific trait more than the other, their effectiveness still remains the same. In GW1 some Assassins use hammers, why? Because even if they are not effective with it (NOTE: in GW1 your effectiveness with a weapon is reduced if you haven't specced into it which is not the same in GW2. If your profession can use the weapon... well you can USE it) they still want to use it to get that one knockdown that starts the chain of destruction they will lay on you before you get back up. All their points are in Daggers but they still bring that Hammer. In the same vein, casters bring spears and shields, spears to gain adrenaline for Bonetti's defence and shields for the buff in defence and to use shield bash and they also have different sets to increase their base amout of energy. They could stick with the highest amount of energy and disregard everything else but there is an advantage to having these different sets.
I might've gone on for too long but I do hope my point is made clear; just because people are able to be specific in the traits they specialize in doesn't mean they are forced to disregard the other skills they have in their arsenal. The fact that the game doesn't even reduce the damage the other attunements do or the benefits you gain from them goes to show that it doesn't matter at all.
This is not a game.
Yeah, I agree. After spending more time on the traits and the general elemental skills, I don't have issue with the new trait system anymore. I can see what they are trying to do. Depending on how you distribute your trait points, it will largely dictate the playstyle you should adopt. Obviously, the opposite is also true.
Crewthief, it's funny how you said that you are going to be running dagger/dagger or staff elementalist because I was thinking of the same exact thing. I am actually thinking of a 2man gank squad with two eles; one dagger/dagger and staff. The two would be able to drop some gnarly spike damage together right at the moment of engagement. I am curious if you are thinking of the same build as me.
Like others I plan on playing with a dagger/dagger spec elementalist too and they have alot of ways to close the gap between range players. They have a utility that increase movement speed, 2 traits that passive increase movement speed, and every dagger attunement as an abilities to speed you up, stun, or slow enemies. Anyways they will not be so easily kited.
The only concern for melee elementalist should be survivablity since they are suppose to have the lowest hp/armor or any class. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/difference-between-level-80-armor-t29241.html, http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/difference-between-level-80-health-t29259.html. So you will have to get some traits in water/earth to improve your survivablity.