When wow came out it was actually fairly normal. When you went up against a pig you beat it pretty easily but if 3 got on you you really had to play it perfect to survive which made it fun to try sometimes. At least we had an option of challenging ourselves to a good fight vs. now you can pull a whole room full of stuff early in mmos and with only one attack in you spellbook we pwn 'em all.
What i'm seeing is alot of people confusing "old game annoyances" for a "challenge."
Sure, the "old timers" all have their horror stories of corpse retrievals that took days, hellacoius death penalties, blah blah.
What fun was that? I started playing MMOs when the original Everquest went live. I absolutely loved that game. The major inconveniences that went with i didnt like at all. time consuming corpse runs, 20 minute wait for health to replenish, snail paced walk speed when overloaded, needing to do camp checks to see if anything was available in a dungeon, etc. All these took away from what made the game fun..."challenge" my ass. You're going to tell me you liked all that??
Game developers started realizing that the vast majority didnt like that and started doing away with it. People want to log on and start having fun right away...and why shouldnt they?
really tho, if you enjoy that nonsense, then go for it....those games are still going. EQ 1 is still available to play, DAoC is still available to play and others from back then i cant think of right now.
Joe..."hey pete, i hear your corpse has been in the plane of fear for a week because you cant get enough help to retrieve it"
Pete..."yea, it has, but i love the challenge"
This is a common misconception that comes up way too often for how many posts deal with this. Those games are not still going or many of us would be playng them. What *is* still going is the wow-ified dumbed down easier/overly solo friendly shadow of what these games were.
If you honestly believe that games like EQ still resemble anything similar to their original versions that actually did offer a challenge as well as features many lament the loss of, then you either haven't played in a very long time or you didn't really play at release.
Seriously, if the answer for all of us that are missing the features of older games was as simple as 'go play *those* games', many of us would be in a game right now rather than checking here for any glimmer of hope on the horizon.
Also your little drama scenerio in which Pete has ruined his reputation so badly that he can no longer get the people he went into PoF with to get his corpse (why didn't Pete get his when the others did anyway?) is a bit misleading - it's not the failing and paying the price that's enjoyable, it's surviving and succeding in a challenging situation when something is at risk, that clearly added a lot of weight to the victory for many of us. Unlike the more modern lukewarm challenges in which failure is harder to achieve than success but if you do play poorly, well...nothing really - it's all a straight line of easy shallow wins for everyone, all the time. Yeay? Sounds like playing Pac-Man when the ghosts can't kill you - just kind of safely moving around each screen and going through the paces. No thanks.
Not interested in a game where my character is a less competent fighter than I am IRL. It was one of the dumbest aspects of old RPG's.
I think they've overcompensated, these days(TOR), but "no thanks" on the epic battles vs. rats and/or carnivorous baby squirrels.
What about game where normal lowly goblin in low level area can kill you?
Depends on the "lowliness".
I've never seen, let alone fought a goblin IRL, so I wouldn't know how competent they are. But something humanoid and carrying weapons is usually fine.
Not interested in a game where my character is a less competent fighter than I am IRL. It was one of the dumbest aspects of old RPG's.
I think they've overcompensated, these days(TOR), but "no thanks" on the epic battles vs. rats and/or carnivorous baby squirrels.
What about game where normal lowly goblin in low level area can kill you?
Depends on the "lowliness".
I've never seen, let alone fought a goblin IRL, so I wouldn't know how competent they are. But something humanoid and carrying weapons is usually fine.
I haven't fought a chicken yet, I wonder who would win.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
A Challenge? I make my own challenges these days... like getting a billion isk (or assets worth a billion) BEFORE getting 5mil sp. Was a fun challenge, and it involved trade
Or in WoW, levelling a mage 1-20 in Wrath in an afternoon just to prove to my guild I could do it in Wrath. Or levelling another alt 75-85 in a weekend.
Or back on Eve, manufacturing at a 25% profit (crazy I know).
Or in FFXI, getting the paper for my blu and mnk WITHOUT lvling my blm/whm/war/nin/thf to 95. (is tricky)
Or on FFXIV, getting a million gil BEFORE getting a single job to level 20. (is good for levelling blacksmith, carpenter, goldsmith, armoer, leather and tailoring all at once)
I miss the games of old...the ones that were a challenge...even at the beginning.
...
I agree but the difficulty should only be enough to make you pay attention, say, during the first 5 levels while you learn the gameplay. I've had the same line of thinking as I myself started with EQ. Most of todays games you can durp through and only see challenging content once you've reached max level. Instead of racheting back this insane progression newer games have been making their gameworlds smaller and the xp gain larger so players can get to the "good stuff" quicker.
There are a few titles that hint at greater exploration but I'll wait to see for myself. I would still like to see large "EQ" size maps again and the "EQ" quest system. In fact, just give me an updated EQ with a mic option to speak the "[keyword]" and I won't leave for another 5 years.
Thanks in advance!
As a side note, "Real MMORPGs" will not start until we have VR helmets, motion controllers to swing/block and cast spells by having to learn the spoken words.
Some games were even a challenge before I started to play my avatar like Ultima,i had spellbook in my hands and i was trying to learn the spells,days before installing the game.
A Challenge? I make my own challenges these days... like getting a billion isk (or assets worth a billion) BEFORE getting 5mil sp. Was a fun challenge, and it involved trade
Or in WoW, levelling a mage 1-20 in Wrath in an afternoon just to prove to my guild I could do it in Wrath. Or levelling another alt 75-85 in a weekend.
Or back on Eve, manufacturing at a 25% profit (crazy I know).
Or in FFXI, getting the paper for my blu and mnk WITHOUT lvling my blm/whm/war/nin/thf to 95. (is tricky)
Or on FFXIV, getting a million gil BEFORE getting a single job to level 20. (is good for levelling blacksmith, carpenter, goldsmith, armoer, leather and tailoring all at once)
I also have found challenge missing in my recent MMOs, but I started creating my OWN challenges and starting having a lot of fun again. My current challenge? League of Legends, winning a Dominion game with every single champion A-Z at least once. Recording the whole journey (win/loss, items, K/D) and LoL replays for all the games. Once I'm "done" I don't know what my next challenge will be, probably compiling a video for my A-Z challenge
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
The starter area's have to be a learning curve. Games today cant take a person 10 hrs to figure out how to move from pt a to pt b or how to get to area's u have to quest in.
they ahve to be tutorials, Game companies are trying to bring in non mmo gamers to mmos' , Wow did this with huge success,
they got fans of there warcraft series to come play wow , players who had never played an mmo before, When u do this u have to have areas players can learn the basics,
bioware is trying this with tor, Truth is mmo's are a buisness and making games so complicated only 10 pct of the population can even figure out how to play them is bad buisness.
So let WoW be the training game and let all the other games be for gamers or WOW-graduates.
A Challenge? I make my own challenges these days... like getting a billion isk (or assets worth a billion) BEFORE getting 5mil sp. Was a fun challenge, and it involved trade
Or in WoW, levelling a mage 1-20 in Wrath in an afternoon just to prove to my guild I could do it in Wrath. Or levelling another alt 75-85 in a weekend.
Or back on Eve, manufacturing at a 25% profit (crazy I know).
Or in FFXI, getting the paper for my blu and mnk WITHOUT lvling my blm/whm/war/nin/thf to 95. (is tricky)
Or on FFXIV, getting a million gil BEFORE getting a single job to level 20. (is good for levelling blacksmith, carpenter, goldsmith, armoer, leather and tailoring all at once)
In LotRO, I used to run all the way to Rivendell as soon as I was out of the starter area. The zigzag up Imladris was... insane...
I have yet to do the chicken race... shame on me...
Funny things im almost 100% sure OP and all who agree with him playing WOW or similar games.
Its your own fault you should not have buyed these easy games but you did and now im stuck with crap you all bought over the years bah:(
Ok prolly not all but you know what i mean, many whine but still play those crappy games.
You hurt those game makers hardest by not buying there games.
I was playing before UO, never subbed WoW (played the beta, thought it sucked and was a progression of the newer parts of EQ that sucked, and a DAoC without real faction combat/objectives, so a mix of suck).
And you lot, stop saying your old for playing UO/EQ/AC from start... I am 27 and I played them, I'm not old.. am I?
*questions self - hits a bottom of spiced rum*
In gaming years, yes, you are old (just like me, I'm turning 30 this year). That's because when we were children, NES had just come out, there wasn't exactly decades of gaming prior to that. So, while there are people who "gamed" before the NES, they are few. We're grandfathers in gaming years (kinda like dog years).
So while we are young in terms of real life, modern gaming has only been around 25-30 years at this point.
Yeah, I just turned 40, but I remember when UO came out, people playing would ask you how old you were, and if you were over 20, they all acted like you were about to retire, and were some grown-up loser for still playing games... When your real young, people over 25 seem ancient.
If you have time to sit down and play a game, based primarily on reading. You have time to stop while it's installing to read the very basics man. Can't deny that.
I mean sure we all have crazy busy epic super lives, but really?
Really?
Time hasn't sped up any faster than 1985, it's the same speed. It's not the book that is the problem. It's a reader that is the problem.
You really don't have time to read how to play something that you just rocked $19-$79 knowing it could either be a long term game or a very short term game depending on your enjoyment of said game?
Point was though, there were books in those days you read to learn things, there were also websites. You weren't left to the wolves unless you played it stupid. It's like now when you get that @general question "How u mine breds"..
Yeah you would be that guy.
Don't be that guy.
Time is the same speed but there are a LOT more to do now than 1985.
When the game install, i can surf a website, play a ipad game, watch some youtube video, ......
And games are more complex now. Do you know how long you need to read to learn all the skills/mechanics of a particular class in a MMO? It is now wasd anymore. Plus, reading a manual is not entertainming as learning in a in-game tutorial.
I played Everquest 1 the first week it came out. I played Ultima Online the first day it came out. (Yes, its true...I'm old...There...I admit it) In both of these games, the beginning (first several days) was hard. Living through an encounter was by no means guaranteed!
In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit. Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing. Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide! THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning! Had to be careful from the start!
In Ultima Online, when I first started out (they dont have levels in UO), I remember fighting a CHICKEN for the first time.....ummm...It kicked my ARSE! That bird flailed on me like well...a Chicken that had gone crazy!! I died!!...THAT WAS FUN!!! killing anything in the early part of a toons life was NOT GUARANTEED!! A challenge and true excitement from the start!
In games nowadays, I don't think it has taken me longer than 20 minutes to get to level 4 or 5, and the chance of my dying in any of these games at the beginning is simply not possible. I couldnt die if I wanted to!
I miss the games of old...the ones that were a challenge...even at the beginning. Where getting to level 5, although not HARD, was still an accomplishment. Remember (those of you who played in EQ1 all those years ago) when ANYONE at ANY LEVEL would shout to the zone "DING!!!!!". A dozen people who didn't even know the "dinger" shouted "Gratz!!" because even getting from level 5 to 6 MEANT SOMETHING.
Anyway...I know I rant...and I rant a lot lately...but it just feels good to get this off my chest in this way......
I wish I could say it made me feel better....
Please dont. it brings a happy tear to my eye when i think back of the risk/reward genre. I wish they would bring it back so much but i am afraid it has gone friend.
I too made the journey from greater faydark to surefall glade to meet my real life human Ranger friend. i was nearly there when i saw a werewolf on the west karanas raod...i just had to get a little closer to take a screenshot.....LOADING PLEASE WAIT!
Comments
What about game where normal lowly goblin in low level area can kill you?
When wow came out it was actually fairly normal. When you went up against a pig you beat it pretty easily but if 3 got on you you really had to play it perfect to survive which made it fun to try sometimes. At least we had an option of challenging ourselves to a good fight vs. now you can pull a whole room full of stuff early in mmos and with only one attack in you spellbook we pwn 'em all.
This is a common misconception that comes up way too often for how many posts deal with this. Those games are not still going or many of us would be playng them. What *is* still going is the wow-ified dumbed down easier/overly solo friendly shadow of what these games were.
If you honestly believe that games like EQ still resemble anything similar to their original versions that actually did offer a challenge as well as features many lament the loss of, then you either haven't played in a very long time or you didn't really play at release.
Seriously, if the answer for all of us that are missing the features of older games was as simple as 'go play *those* games', many of us would be in a game right now rather than checking here for any glimmer of hope on the horizon.
Also your little drama scenerio in which Pete has ruined his reputation so badly that he can no longer get the people he went into PoF with to get his corpse (why didn't Pete get his when the others did anyway?) is a bit misleading - it's not the failing and paying the price that's enjoyable, it's surviving and succeding in a challenging situation when something is at risk, that clearly added a lot of weight to the victory for many of us. Unlike the more modern lukewarm challenges in which failure is harder to achieve than success but if you do play poorly, well...nothing really - it's all a straight line of easy shallow wins for everyone, all the time. Yeay? Sounds like playing Pac-Man when the ghosts can't kill you - just kind of safely moving around each screen and going through the paces. No thanks.
Depends on the "lowliness".
I've never seen, let alone fought a goblin IRL, so I wouldn't know how competent they are. But something humanoid and carrying weapons is usually fine.
I haven't fought a chicken yet, I wonder who would win.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
They are highly vulnerable to Axe-kicks. Also, BBQ sauce.
A Challenge? I make my own challenges these days... like getting a billion isk (or assets worth a billion) BEFORE getting 5mil sp. Was a fun challenge, and it involved trade
Or in WoW, levelling a mage 1-20 in Wrath in an afternoon just to prove to my guild I could do it in Wrath. Or levelling another alt 75-85 in a weekend.
Or back on Eve, manufacturing at a 25% profit (crazy I know).
Or in FFXI, getting the paper for my blu and mnk WITHOUT lvling my blm/whm/war/nin/thf to 95. (is tricky)
Or on FFXIV, getting a million gil BEFORE getting a single job to level 20. (is good for levelling blacksmith, carpenter, goldsmith, armoer, leather and tailoring all at once)
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
I agree but the difficulty should only be enough to make you pay attention, say, during the first 5 levels while you learn the gameplay. I've had the same line of thinking as I myself started with EQ. Most of todays games you can durp through and only see challenging content once you've reached max level. Instead of racheting back this insane progression newer games have been making their gameworlds smaller and the xp gain larger so players can get to the "good stuff" quicker.
There are a few titles that hint at greater exploration but I'll wait to see for myself. I would still like to see large "EQ" size maps again and the "EQ" quest system. In fact, just give me an updated EQ with a mic option to speak the "[keyword]" and I won't leave for another 5 years.
Thanks in advance!
As a side note, "Real MMORPGs" will not start until we have VR helmets, motion controllers to swing/block and cast spells by having to learn the spoken words.
Just not worth my time anymore.
Some games were even a challenge before I started to play my avatar like Ultima,i had spellbook in my hands and i was trying to learn the spells,days before installing the game.
Maan i miss gaming.
Let's internet
I also have found challenge missing in my recent MMOs, but I started creating my OWN challenges and starting having a lot of fun again. My current challenge? League of Legends, winning a Dominion game with every single champion A-Z at least once. Recording the whole journey (win/loss, items, K/D) and LoL replays for all the games. Once I'm "done" I don't know what my next challenge will be, probably compiling a video for my A-Z challenge
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Spellbook ,Holy Moses,even pre-game was a challenge.
in a good way.
Let's internet
So let WoW be the training game and let all the other games be for gamers or WOW-graduates.
Currently bored with MMO's.
In LotRO, I used to run all the way to Rivendell as soon as I was out of the starter area. The zigzag up Imladris was... insane...
I have yet to do the chicken race... shame on me...
I was playing before UO, never subbed WoW (played the beta, thought it sucked and was a progression of the newer parts of EQ that sucked, and a DAoC without real faction combat/objectives, so a mix of suck).
Guess your wrong?
Yeah, I just turned 40, but I remember when UO came out, people playing would ask you how old you were, and if you were over 20, they all acted like you were about to retire, and were some grown-up loser for still playing games... When your real young, people over 25 seem ancient.
Time is the same speed but there are a LOT more to do now than 1985.
When the game install, i can surf a website, play a ipad game, watch some youtube video, ......
And games are more complex now. Do you know how long you need to read to learn all the skills/mechanics of a particular class in a MMO? It is now wasd anymore. Plus, reading a manual is not entertainming as learning in a in-game tutorial.
Please dont. it brings a happy tear to my eye when i think back of the risk/reward genre. I wish they would bring it back so much but i am afraid it has gone friend.
I too made the journey from greater faydark to surefall glade to meet my real life human Ranger friend. i was nearly there when i saw a werewolf on the west karanas raod...i just had to get a little closer to take a screenshot.....LOADING PLEASE WAIT!