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Why gems are OP, and why you shouldn't care
sacredcow4
Member UncommonPosts: 249
I've been a member for nearly a decade now, and lurked even before that. I don't post often(mainly because I am stuck under NDA with many topics - this isn't one), but sometimes an issue should be talked about.
Let me start with a few qoutes from Mike O'Brien.
"They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items."
Notice the time-saving convecience items was thrown in there. Sounds like an advantage. Does he mean... insta res? XP or PVP rank potions? Fast(er) travel? What part of me performing game functions faster than a non-gem buying player puts us on equal footing?
"MMO veterans will note the similarities of our system to EVE Online’s PLEX system.."
You can use PLEX to buy game-time(that has real world value). Unless GW2 allows players to buy future expansions with gems... they cannot be compared to one another in any context.
“… it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.”
Notice the first qoute by him stating we can spend money to... save time. WAIT. HUH? In this qoute he says players will not have an advantage over those who spend time. But those who spend money will not need to spend as much time? This is illogical to me.
Why it honestly doesn't matter. (you can also read more info here): http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344528/This-is-great-Guild-Wars-2-is-clearly-working.html (this article talks about how gems won't effect the economy. I do not agree with everything he says, but it is the most well thought out opinion supporting gems I've found, and you deserve to see all sides of the argument).
Most of us don't care about the economy, gear, or how flashy we are in a game like this. Once we get max level, the only thing determining my e-peen size is my pvp ranking and reputation. No matter how many gems I spend, hopefully, I won't be able to manipulate that ranking. In a game like UO where the entire market is based on players, a gem system would crash the economy. The fact is though, you don't have people in GWs who's sole pleasure in the game is running an armor shop. My buying gems will never put someone else out of business in GWs. It will never ruin their experience. It may give me a gold advantage, and it may allow me to reach content more quickly, but it won't ruin anyone else's enjoyment unless they focus on the gems they don't have. I can buy a million dollars worth of gems and NEVER effect your gameplay. This isn't true in an economy like WoW or SWTOR, where gold has a direct coorelation to what I can and can't accomplish in-game.
At max level what will unlimited gold allow you to do? Repair your items? Mess up the AH? Wipe on PvE content more and pay for repairs?
At max level what will gold not do? Make you a better player. Give you an advantage in a pvp setting. Isn't that what most of us care about in this game?
tl;dr = Yes, gems will offer players an advantage. If they did not, there would be NO incentive to buy them. GWs wants to make money in the cash shop. They will put items we WANT in the cash shop. A player who buys gems will not ruin the game for someone who doesn't.
I've been here a while...
Comments
More or less I agree with what You wrote, except the whole "advantage" of convinience.
I generally find it hard to call it advantage because then, in theory, a person with more free time has an advantage over someone working 12 hours a day as well, being able to do more content per day for obvious reasons. If anything, potential xp/glory/influence boosts can only help to close the gap for people with less time to put into more mundane tasks.
In the end, those that will buy all that convinience simply to be able to /yell FIRST! might be disappointed as they realize their rush didn't really gave them any actual advantage over others.
That's the problem with those who think this is P2W, they keep thinking the economy is exactly like [previous] MMOs and as well as the in game functions.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Your right like when it happens it's going to be very amusing.
This one those rare moments where the people who think and or want it to be a P2W or to get advantage game will have a backlash.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I don't see why GW2 wont allow people to buy future expansions with gems, someone still needs to buy the gems from them so they will get paid no matter what.
Furthermore I am generally concerned that gems can destroy the economy. There are more then enough people that will want special skins. Knowing this people can drive up the price through buying them expensive due to the fact that they will simply buy gems to restock their gold supply. Never underestimate people thirst for greed as well.
A lot of this depends on what items anet will sell and the rarity of vanity items from ingame drops. It would be stupid to disregard the possibility, because it can seriously bite people in the ass.
This didn't warrant it's own thread....
THIS, however; Does:
Selling Gameplay Advantages for Money (and he's right & not just b/c he's a Dev).
IOW...Gw1 walked this thin line and there was no means to convert our playing time back into Cashshop Credits. GW2 gives us the option if we can find someone willing to give up gems for our game items. That automatically resolves Anet of all accusations that "buying power" is exclusive. If any Pay-2-win arguments do surface at any point, then the blame falls on the Player-Economy itself. Just like how Valve can't be blamed directly for the price of Ear-buds & Unusual Hats.
I use most of us with confidence. I make my living in the game industry, have published articles, and completed in-depth research and statistical analysis of various aspects(especially mmo's and their players).
The basis of any game economy is TIME. If it takes an hour to farm 10g, then 10g = 1 hour. If it takes an hour to farm 20 iron bars, then 20 iron bars = 1 hour. Generally, the economy will balance out to make 10g = 20 iron bars = 1 hour.
The problem with gems on the economy is that it introduces a commodity that has no time value into a market where everything we trade is based on the time it took to aquire it. So 10g = 1 hour = x gems. The issue here, is that we can change the x. Yes, I'm simplying my math to assume everyone makes the same gold per hour, but the idea stays the same when everything is balanced out. Let's imagine you want an item that required gems. You don't want to spend real world money. Is that gem worth: gem cost / my hourly wage = 10g? Or your hourly wage? Or whatever I damn well feel like charging? My purchasing of gems has just changed how valuable your time is in the overall economy.
10g = 1 hour time
1 gem = 0 hour time.
If I sell 1 gem for 10g, I just skewed the economy by aquiring 1 hour of TIME for 0 hours of time.
This is not the same as trading for anything else in the game. My 20 irons bars = 1 hour. If I trade 20 iron bars for 10g, I still have 1 hour of time in commodities(rather it is gold, iron, or whatever).
(I wrote a really thought out post, cited my sources, gave examples and math, and then accidently the whole thing. So this is the short and sweet version).
Gems cost Real-Life time so the real question here is: What's the conversion rate?
Unlike most CashShops, the conversion rate isn't decided by the Developer.
...It's going to be decided by the players
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/cash-shop-items-leak-t32319.html
Cash shop leaked... this is much worse than I ever imagined.
(or a really well thought out troll)
Not really. THe cosmetic items are irrelevant for the most part if you're worried about a p2w scenario. the "convenience items" (xp, karma boosters) just means some other guy gets the same things you do, only a little faster. As teh OP states, once you get to "endgame", that all balances out.
As gear stats DO matter, the item boxes and chest keys are a worry. but ONLY if they offer superior gear exclusive to themselves, or so difficult to find otherwise that it might as well be.
We have no idea yet if that's going to be the case.
Not saying there's NO cause for alarm..but I still don't see a "break out the panic alarms!" reason appearing in all this.
I'd say you are wrong. It wont mess up the economy if everyone had a chance to hit maxlvl before they released the cashshop (so new players could catch up quicker), but it will mess up the economy the first, say 2 weeks, and that will make a few players richer than others..
Lets say I hit maxlvl with gems, and you, without gems, are 1 day behind. I can already farm for those special maxlvl monster for the best EQ, while you have one day before you can start. Selling this EQ will give me a lot of cash, since it is pretty unique, while you haven't even had the chance to farm it! Therefor, my Gems will turn into a lot of gold, and therefor it will mess up the economy, making those players with cashshop get a superadvantage during the 1-2 first weeks, and you will NEVER be able to catch up (with a lot of cash, you can easily make more cash)!
Of course, in PvP you can catch up, but lets say one guild goes Cash shop, then they have the possibility to RULE the economics the first couple of weeks, and in the process making that much cash that they can keep ruling the economy.. It wont balance out before those that payed for cash shop during the first weeks leaves the game..
I really, really don't like the mystic keys and the perfect salvage kits. This leaves room for them to tune the in-game mechanics so that those two items are extremely rare in-game, heavily incentivizing players to purchase them from the shop. This really rubs me the wrong way and has caused my excitement to drop substantially. The karma, experience, and crafting boosts are buying power (especially for PvP regarding amounts of skills available) and I'm going to do my best during the beta to get those removed from the shop.
If they stick to fluff (pets, dyes, etc.) and convenience items (bank portals, shared bank, extra character slots, etc.) then I'm fine. I don't want ANY in-game items tied to progression or power on the shop.
Bad form, ArenaNet.
Now, see, I'll freely admit I'm not the type of player that spends 99% of his time at the AH, or actually cares much about the concept of developing a server economy. But, I don't 100% get the issue here.
You say that this player wil get that max level a day before me. First off, how much do you REALLY think he can farm in one day? Second, you state that he'll make a "ton" of gold selling that unique item because he got to it before anyone else. Um..if no one else is max level yet, who can afford it? Byt the time they farm up enough gold to meet any real exorbitant price, there'll be enough people at the same level, farming the same items, that there will be competition.
As for a guild ruling the economy...how? OK so yay for them, they have a skillion gold. So? Yeah they can use it to repair. Yeah they can use it for WvW seige gear, but from what I understand the costs for that aren't so high that you need it.
I know players in WoW that work the way you're describing. my current guild leader is one. The guy literally has millions of gold across all his toons and accounts. Which he doesn't spend, other than buying out mats to start up a new toon when he gets bored. Gold only has so much use in MMOs. It's not useless, but it doesn't rule your ability to play the game. Least not how I see it.
I'm sorry if I haven't read up on the economy in GW2 but a usual way to "rule" a economy is to do this:
1. Buy up all exclusive EQ's (or items) for one class, making it impossible to buy. "No one" have the chance to get their hands on the item if they don't farm it.
2. Sell it for extremly high prices, slow and steady, this way you can maintain high prices.
3. The more money you make, the more items can you "take away" from the market making it harder, or close to impossible for players to play at their "maximum performance".
Now, why would you do like this? Well, for example, if you take away the best Priest armor, you now know in Party vs Party that the Priest PROBABLY have a worse armor than the rest of the party, so focus him. This will make your guilds party (where you have a bunch of priest-armors) one step "better" than the rest of the games parties.
Just an example of how to screw up a economy on a gameserver.
This is basically my opinion on it said better than I could. Its still buying power regardless of how small the advantages actually are. The only way you could say its not buying power is if these items also drop in the game world as loot. At that point it wouldnt be buying power as much as buying better odds.
This model assumes that the "best" gear will be sellable on the auction market. We don't know that yet. We do know that much of the best gear, if not most, is supposed to come from Karma. And that stat differences between bits of gear at "max" level aren't supposed to be significant. I'm not sure a tactic like the one you mention is as viable in this game as others. Also, It's hard to say that having slightly worse than the best gear is going to affect whether you win or lose a game. Also, the stronger focus on pvp in this game seems to be WvW, which won't be so easy to control as small team arena combat.
And, I'll be hoenst again, I'm not a competition level pvp player. If I pvp, it's for fun. I want to win, but I don't really care if I'm at the top of the server's leaderboard at the end of the year. So your concerns are largely irrelevant to me personally. I will accept that other people, depending on their priorities, might feel different.
-I gotta say, this is very dissapointing.
I will play a F2P if I want a Ca$h $hop (and I do not) - Unfortunatly, even sub games are becming Ca$h $hop games (...but its just cosmetic and mounts and such- Right now) well, I want my cosmetics and mounts in the sub price I pay and I KNOW they will slowly phase in P2W items.
I guess this is why I havnt really played an MMO long term in years. Its themepark, P2W garbage.
Was really looking forward to guild wars, unfortunatly- It looks like I am done with MMOs completly =(
Oh well, perhaps there is a good online strategy game that isnt P2W- If not, there is always Tabletop D&D (...Actually Pathfinder since D&D has sucked for years along with MMOs)
I DONTunderstand the QQ about the cash shop...
We knew what it was going to be from day 1 and the leaked list doesn't shock me at all!
If you want to pay a sub, just spend $15 a month at the cash shop.
Or dont play...
Uhh... what?
The entire debate falls flat for one simple reason ( and sofar there has been very few people grasping this ) : Guild wars progression isn't gear based .Specifically made this bold so people might actually read it this time .All the other MMO's mentioned ( EVE,WoW,you name it ) are entirely gear based. The fact whether or not you progress - or gain access to content - solely depends on what gear /weapon you have . All articles,previews etc. have clearly - very clearly ,in fact - indicated that isn't the case for GW 2 nor was it for the original game .
I'm at a complete loss why it is so difficult for folks to understand that distinction.
While I'm not as alarmist about this as some people here, you are partly wrong.
Progression is not gear based, no. But one of the strongest facets of this game is pvp. And gear DOES have stats, and some gear IS better than others. IF the item bags and chests offer better rewards than can be gotten with any degree of ease elsewhere, and if those rewards make enough of a difference, it is concieveably possible that someone could pay their way to povp victory using those items.
However, that's a LOT of IFs. waiting to se how it all works out before I start panicking.
this is where you are wrong . Even in guild wars 1 PvP gear was equal across the board ( gear didn't impact PvP at all) and all players had same level gear . The way you were different - and won or lost - was with your skills . From the previews we already know the content is scaled to level ( you can go back to starting zones at max level ,because you are "downleveled " automatically ,including your gear) and we also know gear doesn't matter one bit in PvP . Just watch preview videos of PvP . Another thing most folks don't understand is that max gear is equal for everyone in terms of stats . What do I personally think will be offered in the shop ?
- pets , clothes and other RPG stuff
- elite armor materials or the elite armors as a whole ( elite armors have the same stats as other armor of same level ,it just looks very cool)
-character slots
-bags/inventory space
In other words : in original if you got "run " to droknar's forge and bought max level armor you didn't have to get any other armor ( except if you wanted to for looks ) .We also already know there will be a hefty crafting component ,so I think it will be possible to craft unique looking armor /weapons and that will be tradeable using the aforementioned ingame shop .I'm also 99% certain you will be "shy"one character slot - or 2 - so that will be enticing you you to spend extra cash to get enough slots for al classes ( or a PvP toon) and storage will be limited for the same reason.
I don't think you understand how non-sensical that is.... First of all... "Party vs Party"? I take it you haven't read much about this game?
The only time you will have "Party vs Party" is in organized PvP(e-sport arena) where all of the gear is normalized anyways.... Well, when would you be using your own gear to PvP? In WvW... and get this... the other party in "Party vs. Party" is from a DIFFERENT SERVER with its OWN auction house... So your tactics of making all other parties weaker only hurts your own side and your server's ability to be competitive.
Well how about competing against other parties in PvE? Well, the game gets rid of a lot of the competitiveness in PvP by removing the artificial penalties which make it disadvantageous to you for other people to do well(i.e. kill stealing). Ideally you want everyone to do well in PvE and you want everyone on your server to do well in WvW.
So given that:
1)The people you are PvPing against in WvW are not using the same AH as you
2)The people you are PvPing against in the arenas have all their gear normalized
3)PvE is cooperative and everyone gets credit for assisting
Please explain that comment, cause I am kind of confused by it...
Wrong, the auction house is across all servers.
otherwise, spot on
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
In GW1 base stats on gear was the same across the board for every respective class. The difference in armor was minor due to which insignias and runes you would put onto the armor, but these where beneficial in certain situations only. So yes player 1 can have an advantage over player 2 in situation A. It is very possible that the reverse would be true in situation B. Your armor was there to augment the skills you were bringing. That's why most people had multiple sets of armor for different builds.
I see no reason for Anet to have deviated from this line of thought.
True, but they may not get paid by every player.
For example, if Bob, who already bought the expansion, wants to buy some gold, he purchases gems and then sells them for gold to Mary.
Mary then uses the gems to buy the expansion. Mary didn't pay anything to ANet for the expansion. You can argue that Bob paid for the expansion twice, but the reality is that he would have wanted to sell his gems for gold regardless of Mary's desire to buy the expansion with gems. And someone else would have bought his gems with gold if Mary didn't want to.
In addition, if ANet allows people to buy expansions with gems, then it will DRASTICALLY increase the demand for purchasing gems with gold...causing gold to become devalued as compared to gems.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?