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Pseudo Education in MMOs?
Cuathon
Member Posts: 2,211
So some people were discussing crafting on gamedev and we were thinking about ways to speed up n00bs skill gain in an infinite system. Obviously you don't want them to instantly be equal to vets and you don't want them to be inconsequential. Diminishing returns systems are obviously useful for this but not perfect. What to do.
Also who wants to grind 1000 items to get to the thing they want?
I have some exp boosts in my game for crafting that sort of mimic teaching or at least melding of the minds and conducive environments to learn better but I was thinking of being more explicit.
Imagine an MMO where crafting was a big deal and there was an infinite skill growth.
Would this system be of any interest to you? Actually even in a regular MMO. There is no reason you need a capless skill sandbox for this.
Basically higher level players could work as "teachers". Lest you worry about going to school in a video game, the system is designed so that it can only reduce tedium. It cannot add more.
Essentially the teacher crafts an item and you either watch or try your hand at the same kind of item. The teacher can pick a random item or maybe he just wants to fill some work orders from other players. So its not like the teacher is forced to stop his own business. Students could either pay money or do chores like gather res and so forth or nothing if the teacher is so inclined.
Essentially the teacher gets a small bonus to crafting experience and to final product quality due to having to slow down and explain what he is doing. This is similar to the idea that the best way to cement understanding in real life is to teach someone else a skill. The teacher has to think about what he is doing, exactly how he does it and convey that to the student. Obviously the player doesn't literally do this, although you could roleplay that if you wanted.
The student gains a bonus to his experience in that skill based on a % of the difference between his skill and his teacher's.
He gains more for crafting along that merely watching.
So maybe you level your crafting skill 0-50% faster based on how much more skilled your teacher is than you. For games with caps you could balance this specifically so a newb with a near cap or capped teacher never gets more than a 100% bonus but in infinite skilling games you could in theory go 200-400% faster or w/e.
Also the teacher may get a teaching skill bonus that adds on to this, since just being good at something doesn't make you a good educator. So if you really train a lot of people your training is more effective. Maybe you even increase your own bonuses with this.
There is no way that having a teacher could make you do more tedious craft grinding than not having one so it can only be an improvement to the experience of leveling crafting skills. Further both sides get some benefit from the arrangement plus any benefits they also agree upon between themselves.
In a role playing or snadboxy game you could even make deals so its more like a real apprenticeship. Maybe your character works at the teachers production facility doing basic tasks to make it easier for him as part of the deal. Labor for knowledge. It would still be faster than not having a teacher and since time=progression totally worth it. To both sides.
Thoughs? Disagreements? Refutations? Can you see a way it could make crafting more tedious?
Comments
No thoughts? If no one wants to comment at least do me the favor of making an interesting topic. Today has been really slow.
I like this idea, though even more so, I would love the idea of a game actually teaching me crafting techniques. It would be nice to learn real world skills from a game.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
real world c rafting, involves so much tedium, you don't e ven know.
Actually in TTS forging and pottery and alchemy teach you real world skills.
Like organic chem!
Passive teaching through proximity is a great mechanic. Had it not been in conflict with other progression features in UO it would still be there today. Would really like to see another MMO take that approach.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I didn't play it as much as some others. What did it conflict with?
Wrote a couple of thoughts but erased them since I seem to have trouble expressing my ideas about this. So perhaps is just better to get on with it.
First of all, I really like the idea for profession masters to teach other players, I can see it tricky on the implementation. Lets say the profession master is to impart his knowledge to a student. How would it be done? You say perhaps by observing, but since this would not get the student to do anything but just “stand” there it would give him a sense of uselesness. Even if it is something along the lines of “go fetch me some items for the craft” I don't think n00bs would like to be anyone's assistant in order to level their own crafting xp.
I always thought of professions I would like to see like this (don't know if this has been done in a MMO, please let me know if it has been implemented to check it out).
Lets say we have a crafting system that runs from 1 (Beginner) to cap or capless. But at certain stage (say 100) you become specialized as a “Crafter” or a “Wielder”.
So, you take on Blacksmithing, you level up and at 100 and you train to be a Crafter.
At this point you can set up your own forge but it is very rudimentary, just the forge and an anvil near your home or you can choose to work for a high level crafter (someone who already owns his forge in the merchant's district).
At level 150 you can purchase property in the merchant's district and set up your forge there, with a store.
At level 200 you can hire NPC assistants that either sell items to other players (so like any other store in-game) with some sort of perk if they buy at your shop instead of buying from the game's AH and/or a stream of daily revenue is added to you from the game for having this NPC (say 10 gold coins daily are added to your wealth daily per assistant).
At level 250 you specialize – Weaponsmith or Armoursmith and you are able to craft high-end weapons or armour.
Here's the deal – at level 100 when you choose to become a Blacksmithing crafter you are able to create “instructions” on how to craft items. These “instructions” you can sell to other players that are leveling up Blacksmithing and give them an added bonus for their crafting. For example:
Crafting speed increased 50% for an hour.
Crafting level increased by 10 for an hour.
Materials needed for crafting reduced by ½ for 10 mins.
Etc.
All based on your level, so for example at level 100 you can create: Crafting speed increased 10% for an hour. At level 110 – crafting speed increased 20% for an hour, etc.
The teacher can sell these instructions for either an amount of gold or for specific materials for their own usage.
This would aliviate the need to be present to receive the necessary formation from the Crafter. So for people that still wants to level their Blacksmithing faster but they do not have the time to log into the game often or do not like the idea of spending their playing time staring at a Crafter in order to get some little perk it helps them to get to the top a bit faster.
It could be that apart from the instructions one could also decide to go to a Crafter's forge in order to learn quicker. So apart form having “Crafting speed increased 50% for an hour.” form the instructions, they could get by being there with the teacher an extra bonus “Crafting xp increased by 10 while at the Teacher's forge”.
Let me explain a bit something I said before, at level 100 you choose between being a Crafter or being a “Wielder”.
Some people go into crafting for the econocmy and some other people go into crafting in order to create their own armour and weapons without being so dependant on the economy.
You choose to be a Crafter if you are interested on the economic side of the game.
Yo become a “Wielder” if you want to make your own equipment so you can use it on your battles.
Both a Crafter and Wielder would have advantages and disadvantages.
Someone wants to create [Absolutely Epic and Legendary Helmet of Don Quixote] – increases Health by 1, increases Stamina by 1, increases optical illusions by a googol.
The materials needed for anyone to craft it are:
20 x [Iron bar], 2 x [copper chain], 2 x [barber's hair], 1 x [Mambrino's instructions on how to make a basin that looks like a helmet].
And this last one can only be made by a Crafter.
Also, lets say the Wielder decides to create the item in a Crafter's forge (instead of using one out in the world). He pays an amount of gold for using that forge and receives a perk in exchange – 1 % extra Health imbued on the Helmet.
As a Wielder he gets 100 % effectiveness from the Helmet. He can only create one though, if he wishes to create another one he needs to pay the Crafter for another set of instructions.
The Crafter does not need the instructions in order to create the Helmet. But he does not receive the full perks from it. Say he only receives 80 % of the effectiveness.
I know, a long and confusing post.
Tl;dr: I like the idea!
Don Quixote's Delusions
This would make a viable system with some refinements.
It worked against the stat cap and stat decay. At the time you couldn't lock a skill to prevent it from being the one that decays when learning something else if you're capped. The conflicting aspects are long gone so it would probably actually work well in today's UO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ah okay.
What do you think about the more powerful active effects like teacher student, vs the more passive bonuses for just crafting around lots of crafters.
I worked in manufacturing for over 30 years. In that time I "crafted" many things. Let tell you that it is always a tedious process and is in no way exciting or fun. Sure, you do get some enjoyment out of crafting a good product, but it never exceeds the tedium. Crafting in a game should be fun first. If it becomes tedious, it is no longer fun. Last thing you want are people in a game just doing assmebly work or gather work or manufacturing work that is boring and tedious.
While I appreciate a little complexity in a game's crafting system, I do not appreciate making so that I have to be taught how to do it by anyone. If it is done right, it would be a naturally simple process and would require no overtly difficult sequences to learn over many hours or even days. The system should be simple enough for the person with 5 minutes on their hands yet engrossing enough to allow people to craft for hours if they like without becoming tedious.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Well you aren't literally being taught. That's why its called pseudo education. This is all about % boosts to numbers you get for completing stuff. I know all too well about the tedium of real life "crafting".
IMO, depending on the game and the audience, it could probably provide a really engaging experience, especially if the game is centered around collaborate play.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Essentially the teacher gets a small bonus to crafting experience and to final product quality due to having to slow down and explain what he is doing. This is similar to the idea that the best way to cement understanding in real life is to teach someone else a skill. The teacher has to think about what he is doing,
ooh i caught me a bot.
I am trying to center it around that. The question is if the players will follow that idea. I know personally that many people try to solo even in intensely group oriented games because people suck :'(
In my experience, most players will do whatever they can to speed up progression (barring the EQ flagellates and select other maochists), so an idea that speeds up progression AND places them in an interactive environment seems like a win/win situation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah. Now only need 10000000000000 other win/win situations and we are good to go.
Also I win a third time because I get to include some more realism. Come on certain posters, tell me how adding this realism to the game is a terrible idea.
Take this post and idea to the weather and clothing thread, Cuathon, and everyone will tell you realism is bad, because somehow it is not enjoyable.
On the other hand, you know what they think from there anyway.
Death to immersion and all that.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.