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About the Trinity....
chaintm
Member UncommonPosts: 953
So ok, before I get started, let me just say I am no hatter of this game nor am I a fanbot. More of a " wait and see" how it comes about. While I enjoyed guild wars one to a point, it never took me in deep as other genre's have.
So in this, I am of course looking into the concepts of Guild Wars 2, trying to follow what official info is out there and more. This comes to the point of the trinity, I realize in other postings that people refer to this as a bad thing in MMO's, the only thing I can think of at the moment is, ok the trinity is gone from GW2, good or bad?
Well if I where to think of killing mobs and bosses, I would of course want someone to tank, someone to heal and someone to dps. However, it now seems there are no defining roles, everyone can do everything, so isn't this just a dps game now? I mean basically, you choose skills to slot and go at it. So one guy might say, well I have this or that skill so I should do the damage, another guy says I have this and that skill so I can do it better. Point to all of this, I just don't see how the easy flow of choices and grouping are going to work, everyone is everyone and the only unique aspect is you defining your skills choices differently then the other guy (well beyond race picks that is) , but if anyone can better clear up this topic that would be great.
However, I just don't see how this sort of game-play will work out to the benefit of the majority, it seems very much a solo game in that aspect.
Thoughts opinions, this is not a flame of the game, see other post if you like I have done, I am actually more curious on this sense I have seen more post about this lately. Both sides have some ample points to make, but for me, a guy just looking at the game , it seems there is a good possibility this change could be a bad one. I just can't wrap my head around the idea fully.
edit: also question: being this is the way it is, doesn't this hurt the defining factor of unique roles? I mean a tank is a tank for his stats fit that genre so he excels at that role. Now that we don't have these roles, will our skills determin that role? How am I more effective doing skills then a role? Maybe I am just seeing this wrong or not understanding the mechanics.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Comments
It's going to be way different than what you are used to. A lot of the reviewers would say that based on their beta experience, the group content felt way different than what they were used to. I think Total Biscuit said that he thought it might actually deter a lot of the people that usually play MMORPGs.
And I think you are right to a degree. Everyone is, for the most part, a DPS. Even the most heal specced Guardian or Elementalist is still basically going to be doing damage. Where the teamwork comes into play is how you manage cooldowns with the rest of your party.
For instance, lets say there is a boss that is pure melee for whatever reason. So your group decides that they want to kite him the whole fight and take as little damage as possible. You try and find people with snares or roots to help you keep him locked down and then decide on an order to lay down the CC.
This type of planning for an encounter reminds me a lot of Arena PvP. The whole "see what they have, see what we have and counter" thing. I think that this game is going to take more skill and coordination inside dungeons than seen previously. Of course this will depend on how hard they tune these things.
Anyway, yes, it'll be different. It might turn a lot of people off. It might turn you off. But it also might be really rewarding if you put in the time.
I think you miss why they removed the trinity or its concept. You do not have to sit around waiting for a tank or healer to go do things.. you can go with your friends and their prof means nothing.. they may need to change their abilities or traits a little for some situations but that is it.. also there is still support via area heals, boons, combo moves ect and they should be used as much as possible!
I wish I remembered the exact source but Anet basically said a grp that tried to make a trinity would most likely fail in the explorable dungeons because those on DPSers wouldn't be doing much damage and not helping the grp very much.. you can see this in many a video where someone is trying to tank or someone is ONLY rezzing people and hanging back. The game is about utilizing your skills and teamwork not needing one priest, one warrior and 3 DPS...
the information is out there, tons and tons of information.
Basically you are afraid that since everyone is the same, no one is needed, well all i can say is watch the videos available.
There is a new video out, from Game informers, watch that video and you will see how the game is played.
IF you are still confused, go to www.guildwarsinsider.com they have plenty of videos for you to watch.
if you still don't know whats going on, go to www.guildwars2guru.com/ and they also have tons of information for you.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
"I just don't see how the easy flow of choices and grouping are going to work..."
They're not going to be easy, as in pre-defined for you. You're going to have to think, communicate, and get creative.
Another thing is something you already mentioned: anyone can be anything... Not that noone is nothing.
What this means, is that there could be a player that specifically is slotting his skills and abilities to be able to take more damage, and attention. He has speced to be more of a tank that the lighter classes in the game. Others are more into being support, while others are more into doing more damage. While this is not the trinity that you are used to, it would still follow the same principle. The "Tank", however, will not be standing still trying to soak up damage. Instead, he will be actively moving and trying to keep everyone else safe. The support will debuff and heal the slight damage he takes, while the pure dps will do as much damage as they can, until the situation changes. When it does, they can instantly adjust and do what they must to make the group successful.
So while there is no "trinity" like in other games, there is still the ability to define yourself for a certain role at a certain time. The advantage is you don't HAVE to stay that role for the rest of the game. Which is a positive.
In general the game isn't designed to "need" the trinity to get through it's content. This does not mean the sense of trinity doesn't exist.
There are in fact classes that are 'slightly more tanky' and 'slightly more healy' than others. Some guilds may end up prefering certain classes for some encounters over others. To say a necromancer is more durable than some is obvious simply due to their mechanics. They have more health, tons of health drains and forms that make them incredibly tough to kill. Does this make them a tank? Do they have superior aggro management? Hell if I know and likely are not designed in that way. It would be up to the party to allow one particular player toon to tank "most of the fight" through strategy and whatnot.
That being said even the so called fragile elementalist has some very nice mitigation skills and talents. One could spec to be far tougher than another but again this would be situational.
The guardian is all about shields and mitigation yet they share the lowest health pools along with elementalist and thief. You'd think they are the true tank yet actually aren't really build from the ground up for it. Warriors share the highest health pool yet lack the tanking skills and talents some other classes have that you may not thing would have.
Trinity will of course be touched upon simply because the classes are different but each class typically has elements from all trinity concepts mixed in. At best you can only say one is better than the other in the most general sense or in specific situations. Even that can be altered greatly by race choice due to their options elite skills.
You stay sassy!
As has been said, there are videos that do a great job of showing how it works... but I'll try to explain it the way that I understand it.
In a trinity MMO you have a tank, healer and DPS. The tank keeps aggro and uses abilities to mitigate damage, the healer repairs damage, and the DPS cycle through a set of skills (rotation) to maximize their DPS.
In GW2 there are no dedicated tanks, healers or DPS. Every class and therefor everyone tanks (gains aggro), heals and does DPS as needed. When you have aggro or are near a mob you use your abilities to evade the attacks. When you take damage you heal yourself through a self heal that has a cooldown or drop out of combat to allow HPs to regen after a short period of time. When you are not avoiding damage or healing yourself you DPS and use abilities to reduce or prevent the mob that you are DPSing from damaging you or your friends.
So, again...
[ Trinity Combat ]
Tank tanks, healer heals, dps dps.
[ Guild Wars 2 Combat ]
Everyone watches what is going on and reacts accordingly. If you have aggro, evade! If you are hurt, drop back and heal! If you are not being attacked and are not hurt then throw out buff/debuffs as needed and DPS while watching for opportunities to prevent your target from using its abilities (by using stun, blind, knockback, etc on your target stopping their next attack).
The tank, healer dps dynamic is not in the game. That does not mean that everyone is a DPS. Ther's a good article floating somewhere, but everyone will play over the course of a battle the jobs of controler, supporter and dps. Some classes and abilities lean more towards one way, but nothing leans so far that it defines the class or ability.
This will scare away a lot of people are want to play the same game they've been paying for 10 years. GW2 will not give you chicken soup in a new bowl. It is a new game. The combat is going to be new. Instead of roles, you're going to have to make decisions in cmobat based on what your opponents are doing.
There's one point in the video wher ethe Mesmer, relaxed in a damaging roll, finds that she needs to switch to using some support abilities to help the other player restore vigor. She did this by noticing that the player was not dodging.
Attempting to play the roles of tank and healer will get a party killed. Pretty much this. I do appreciate the question, but these threads should scare everyone. We've somehow let one game define a genre. It would be like every platform game having jumping on heads as the main mechanic and throwing fireballs from flowers. And when a game comes out and it doesnt have this, it's anarchy. (why is that hedgehog running so fast).
Mm....I like.
I just hope it doesn't turn out like "modern" MMO Arena PvP, where two paladins or [insert generic hybrid class] spells certain doom for the opposing side. They MUST make sure the classes balance in structured PvP and dungeons.
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
Well , i read all the post, so there is a consensus that there is indeed no defining role. To me, this just says people are more the same then unique. Hmmm I could see why some people I know are passing and others are praising, it's really a mixed review from my friends in the MMO genre atm on guild wars 2,
The videos to which most I have seen haven't explained it, again it seems to be a mash of players attempting to use their abilities the best they can but with no true organized element. That is why, to this point I inquired to see if anyone could make it a bit more clear what the system is or is like. Many responses here have done so, but in the end to me, it seems indeed that for the no defining roles, characters won't excel in any one aspect unless they choose particular skills sets to do so , in turn if you do this, you probably will end up gimping your toon for there will be a need for that buff or heal or insert any issue here.
Eh, interesting and I really do appreciate all the feedback, alas some of you are right, this isn't for me. I am not a lover of the trinity, but I do love defining roles. There have been games attempting to mix them IE paladins etc, which are a blast but then considered OP at times. I guess in the end, that is more of what I look for in an rpg fantasy environment, for me it's why fix what is not broken. It's good that the devs are attempting something new here, I just don't see how that will thrill me to much.
To this point, I thank again everyone for the feed back, I think at this point I won't say yes to the game at launch but hold me stance at a wait and see. While I might not care for the combat, maybe a friend will come back later going "Wow you have to try this part of the game!" and change my mind.
Again everyone thnx , what you have written definitely helped me finalize my choice.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Personally I think this system will be like Benny Hill show live but I love new things, experimental stuff, even if they fail miserably. Who knows, maybe this will be new greatest thing.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
This video: http://www.gameinformer.com/games/guild_wars_2/b/pc/archive/2012/04/13/guild-wars-2-video-preview.aspx
The dev who is playing explains that you watch your target and friends to know when to react.
Yes, it does seem chaotic at first, until you see what he's reacting to. Yes, this game isn't for everyone. At least we helped save you $60.
Yeah, thnx just finished watching, ... yeah this isn't for me, at least not now, so yes thank you for saving me 60bucks hehe
, eh I won't say never but definitly not for launch for me. Thnx again, good video on this topic.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
All kidding aside, I wish all gamers could find just the game they are looking for, we are brothers/sisters in arms.
As a MMO players since UO, I have to say I LOVE how Anet has strayed away from the trinity. In DAOC we called most classes "one trick ponies" because thats all they had, one trick.
With GW2 you have so much more, the players will adapt, I have faith in them.
I know lots of people who are really into the trinity style and raids. They won't be joining me in GW2 no matter how good I might eventually think that it is because it doesn't have and never will have what they are looking for... and that's okay. I wouldn't want them to buy the game and be unhappy. People should know up front that GW2 won't be a raid game and the combat isn't the typical MMO style... it's a lot more... chaotic.
I never really understand the rumble over the trinity removal - I guess I never was a raid type person si I dont really care
I understand that people see a great chaos when watching GW2 group play - I see it too, but I guess it's due to the particle effects
I have to play the game to actually know if it really is mashbutton fest or not
I also think that once people master their classes, there could be some great strategies, unseen in other trinity based MMO
for instance a group of guarding completely blocking the enemies from passing via wards, mesmer kiting through portals, combo based strategies, warrior meatshielding ranged attacks by moving into them and etc.. at least I hope so
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
damn i really was looking forward to this game but after watching that video somthing has me worried. maybe sombody who knows alot about this game can explain somthing to me.
a few times durring the video people he was fighting would just turn invisible, even he did it himself a few times durring pvp.
to me this is a game breaker, nothing worse than having people just dissapear durring a fight. its a cheap mechanic that should NEVER be in pvp.
is this somthing that every person can do? and when they turn invis how long does it last ?
Mesmers and Thiefs have "stealth" abilities yes. The Mesmer even has a group stealth ability.
What MMO doesn't have this mechanic in one form or another?
There are some that don't have stealth features but most mmos do have them.
In answer to the original question by the OP "ok the trinity is gone from GW2, good or bad? " I say removing the Trinity is bad. ArenaNet got rid of the trinity by giving every class self healing, giving every class a combat rez, and making the mob bosses stupid. What they have produced is a mmo fps - which is what most of the newer players (and the studios) want. It is the step before creating a console version. [Sorry got on my soapbox again.] It certainly takes more skill to bring down bosses in GW2 than in the trinity games where the only skillful player had to be the tank. However, I think that "no trinity" mantra is a macho attitude that will backfire. When most of the efforts against bosses fail it will discourage a lot of people from staying with the game. Being a healer in most other mmos and a noob in all of them you can be assurred that I won't be joining any group going against bosses. [I know - good riddance!] Lest you think that I am a hater - I pre-purchased the Digital Deluxe edition. I won't be fighting bosses but there is so much more to this game that is really cool.
Alls i'm going to say is this.
The rest of you (not the OP) who hate the combat in the game will still be on here spewing some nonsense about some other title, maybe even about this one, while those of us who know the value of GW2 will be happily in the world running around enjoying ourselves, without the unecessary subscription, without the need to buy anything in the store unless we would like to.
I will be personally running dungeons and open world final events on my engineer throwing out aoe pots, turrets, spewing out alchemical awesomeness, and dropping crates of healing equipment all to help out my happy fun time friends. Enjoy your vitriol, they make antacids for that.
There's a PvP angle to this as well. You can't balance PvP in a game where you have dedicated healers. Or actually you can but the majority of players won't be pleased because the said majority doesn't have a clue about how group PvP works. The pattern is always the same:
1) People can't solo healers.
2) They don't understand this is how it should be. They go to the official forums and whine.
3) Healers get nerfed.
4) The same people who whined on forums about don't get enough healing anymore. They are pissed about spending all their time on respawn.
5) Stealthers totally rule the battlefield because they generally don't need healing if they're patient.
If you want a recent example: look at Rift. As a stealther rogue I had a KB/death ratio of about 100:1 there. I kid you not. And that with mediocre gear. And that's with 20-25 FPS and 200 ping. And that's *before* 1.8 patch where dedicated cleric healers were nerfed all the way to hell.
Balancing trinity-less PvP is a more foolproof process. Not completely, of course, but every little bit helps.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Making the mobs stupid?
Because a mob athat only attacks one person because he's yelling at them is so smart.
Mob: hey who are those other guys hitting me
Tank: don't mind them, I just called your mom fat
Yup nothing stupid aobut that at all.
Anyone who knows the history of rpgs knows that it came from tabletop rpgs. The concept of a tnak, healer and dps in a tabletop rpg is laughable. It's why a lot of tabletop gamers don't play mmos. IN a tabletop rpg all classes can heal themseleves (via potions, items and scrolls). "aggro" is determined by more than just a bunch of taunts (as a matter of fact i don't know a dm who doesn't go for the healer first in an important battle, heck, the heavy armor guy is the last person you'd attack first) and everyone can do some damage. A clerivc doesnt have a ton of heal spells, so healing only actually occurs from someone else once in every 6 rounds of combat.
I really hope you eventually learn how to play GW 2 and leave behind that defeatest attitude.
I know it sucvks, but you have to come to the fact that you have to learn how to play another game :gasp:.
When I play god of war, I don't get all crazy cause it won't let me do puzzles like Diseaga. I expect a new game to play differntly. It is sad that that expectation is lost in MMOs.
BTW, don't see how ths game could ever get to consoles, like most MMOs, there aren't enough buttons that can be mapped to a bcontroller.
No pve raiding and massive seige pvp keep raiding are my main reasons I've been looking forward to gw2. I've been sick of the raid grind since I did in wow years ago. Gw2 is exactly what I've been looking for.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot