Why the odds are heavily stacked against Guild Wars 2 success

RizelStar

Originally posted by wowfan1996

 

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Originally posted by DarkPony

The replies are doing a very bad job at addressing the OP's concerns because a lot of it is either valid or not disproven at this time (as far as I can tell).

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Well, the TC did a very good job at finding a misleading title for this thread. If the title was "my BWE experience" replies would be different. The TC doesn't like mass PvP in MMOs, all right. As regrettable as it is is, it doesn't mean mass PvP in MMOs sucks for everybody.

 

[Mod Edit]

dageeza

Originally posted by Eliandal

  While we're all entitled to our own opinion, I'll jusy say that I don't agree with yours (OP)

This...

And i have been on both sides of the zerg tactic in this game and let me tell you our server relentlessly wiped out huge zergs of 50 or more players with little more than 15 players defending on our side, its all about tactics and zerging does not assure a successful attack in this game, it is awesome to behold an entire zerging horde dying at the hands of a few..

Pyuk

Originally posted by Volkon

So many words, so little facts.

Welcome to the MMORPG forums.

GrayGhost79

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

PVE and there take on questing is significantly better, read the reviews from actual players and reviewers alike and you will see this is a common agreement. Many after playing GW2 are having trouble going back to games as bland as WOW, AoC, War, Aion, etc. While it may be your opinion that PVE isn't significantly better do note that an opinion is all it is and many would disagree with that opinion.

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

This is simply another great aspect, the PvE is better in my and many others opinion and the WvWvW PvP is another area where the game shines. Your opinion my vary, but as I stated before this is simply your opinion and one many disagree with. The WvWvW has given many players long awaited features, mechanics and fun. 3 faction large scale PvP with siege weapons and the need for both Zerg and strategy. It has managed to blow PvP in other MMO's away by a large margain. As a full loot FFA PvP fan for many many years I actually prefer GW2 PvP over all others for more reasons than I can possibly list. Again your opinion seems to differ from mine, but it is nothing more than an opinion and one again it seems many disagree with.

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

GW2 hasn't actually improved on the EQ model, it went into a different direction all together and one many felt the genre should have went in to begin with. While you may not like it the game has seem to reasonate well with MMO gamers of a large variety. You have PvP fans, PvE fans, WoW fans, UO and DFO fans, it's hit on many areas gamers have complained about constantly for many years. 

 

You are definitely entitled to your opinion but please keep in mind that it is only an opinion. The odds are definitely not stacked against GW2's success based off of the hype before the first BWE and they certainly aren't after the increased interest that came AFTER the BWE.

 

GW2 is on the road to success. Now that doesn't mean it's the "WoW killer" or anything like that, it simply means the game will sale and it will sale well. Wether or not it will break any records isn't something I'm willing to try and predict simply because I don't care. All I know is I wish I were playing the game right now even in it's beta state lol.

heartless

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Don't forget the overflow server thingy ... if there's one killer to world pvp in a can it is not being able to join your guildies in a siege.

Critical but good thread. Hope this won't be locked.

The replies are doing a very bad job at addressing the OP's concerns because a lot of it is either valid or not disproven at this time (as far as I can tell).

Do a little bit more effort to stick to substance rather than lashing out guys V_V

Most of his post are personal opinions based on limited exposure to the game. Going by the first part alone, it is obvious that the OP has not really explored the PvE side of the game in depth. I'd say he either watched a few youtube videos or possibly played the game to level 5, did a few starter hearts and events and assumed that the whole PvE game is like this. It is not. There is a lot more depth do it and when you actually realize it, you'll see just how different the PvE side of the game is.

Just the simple fact that the game revolves around exploration instead traveling from quest hub to quest hub is enough to set it appart from the other MMOs.

As far as the rest of that post... zerg tactics? In mass PvP? Especially when people just started playing? You don't freaking say... I am shocked.

Faction imbalance? There are no factions in GW2, something the OP would have known, had he actually played the game.

Server population imbalance due to time zones doesn't matter as servers get paired up with servers from their time zone. Either way, due to the length of WvWvW conflicts and how the wins are determined, it doesn't really matter if one night a certain server is able to field more players.

Wait, what does "only playing to level 5" have to do with it?  I thought the whole game was "end game" and some positivists claim to have done more in a couple levels than in many levels in other mmos.  Is it not deep at the beginning?  More depth later implies the beginning of the game is shallow and basic.  That doesn't jive with the claims about it being a deep complex world from momemnt one.  You can't have it both ways, which is it?

So he only watched some livestreams and youtube videos according to you, but many many people have told us that's all we need to see in order to make an informed decision.  All the facts are laid out before us to see.  Is that not true?  Is that just a bunch of bullshit?  Again, you can't have it both ways.

So a game that is being touted as revolutionary, a sub-killer, an evolution of pve and pvp, but has the standard zerg trap is okay because zergs happen.  Servers *are* the factions and we'll see how well the pairing works.  It obviously didn't work for everyone on the paid preview weekend.

Just admit it's a game that spins your wheels and is exactly what you're looking for but isn't going to be the "revolution" everyone is looking for and that perspective isn't from a lack of understanding, but from game play preferences.  This game is better for you, but not for everyone.

Do you expect gameplay depth in tutorial areas?

Zergs happen because when you're dealing with a large group of people, zergs will always happen. Especially when the people have less than 1 day gameplay experience.

The game is revolutionary compared to the rest of the WoW clones. Problem?

Edit: btw, I will be the first one to say that GW2 will not make all gamers happy. It's a good game but no game is going to please everyone.

BigHatLogan

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Have fun killing 10 rats in whatever mmorpg you play.  Truth is, GW2 will kill all other mmorpg's except for WoW and EVE.  WoW covers the WoW clone style of game, GW2 covers the people who don't like WoW and EVE covers the sandbox crowd.   SWTOR will actually kill itself by sucking.   I don't have any facts to support  my claim, but neither does the OP.

Kuppa

Originally posted by Volkon

So many words, so little facts.

hundejahre

Could not disagree with the OP more, although I'd like to.

PVE IS significantly better than other MMORPGs, especially all the ones you listed (except maybe Warhammer since I never played it and so can't say).

Don't give a rat's ass about PvP, never have and never will, and I'm not alone. There is a reason full time PvP games on a PC either fill a little niche or fail outright.

Most of the things you complain about for WvWvW will smooth out as people elarn what they're doing. Seriously, it was a 60 hour beta, why aren't you slackers 100% focused on toons you can't keep yet for a group you may never see again? (snark) Besides, WvWvW is meant to be casual. Save the bossy pushy stuff for the competitive PvP.

The whole "solve the riddle" thing made me laugh. What riddle would that be exactly? How to please all the people all the time? 'Cause that one ain't happening. The riddle about how to create something completely new while using the same finite inputs and outputs that everyone else gets to use too and still be accessible to people? I think you're trying too hard to sound clever and deep.

GW2 will do fine, it will get big enough to make a profit while hopefully avoiding becoming a bloated beast.

observer

Originally posted by ELE3551

Regardless of whether or not those mechanics fail this game will have a strong following just because people have fallen in love with the world and the lore. Very strong IP here, one I've already fallen for. I'll play loyally through any storm with faith arenanet can weather it.

The lore is why i like guild wars 2.  It's the same reason i didn't like Rift.  I just couldn't get into the lore in that game.

Amjoco

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by mmoseller888

the odds are better b/c it has no sub fee so more ppl will play and stick around longer.

People will also feel the need to shelve it when they need to without feeling obligated to play.  Once the DE's dry up, the world has been explored, and the WvWvW gets tedious (and it will at some point---just a natural reaction to doing the same thing over and over), then people won't feel obligated to stick around because they are paying a monthly fee.  I think you'll see many folks leave the game off and on and return when expansions come out.  Even ArenaNet has said they expect this to happen, and are okay with it.  

Unfortunately, this could be a tough situation because this is the type of game that will only thrive with a healthy population.  So if too many people jump ship while waiting for new content, that could spell trouble.  Shouldn't be an issue in the short-term future because based on what I've read from everyone, there is a ton of content there to keep people interested for a while.  But what happens when  it dries up remains to be seen.  Just don't assume that the payment model alone is going to keep people playing.

The difference in this game though is it scales. In WoW once I finished the 1-10 zone I had no reason to go back to any of the other 1-10 race starting zones. Here I can do the human 1-10, work my way all the way to 80, and then go do it again on the other races zones because I will side-kick down to that zone.  This game gives you way more hours of play time than the conventional questing scenario while leveling do to the dynamic leveling adustment.

I'm retired and have lots of time to play. I love my sons playing when I do but they work. My problem with all other games  has always been that I have to slow down my game play so they stay at the same level.  With GW2 I can play all I want and not have to worry anymore, I can group up if they are 20 levels behind me and we can andventure together.  If my son hates being a Charr Guardian and wants to switch over to a Norn Elementalist, he can do it and within minutes after he has gotten through the starting area we can be playing along side each other again.

Like any game, even the giant WoW we all get bored of mmorpg's. With GW2 I payed my $60, I can walk away for a couple months if I DO get bored, and then pick up right where I left off knowing I didn't have to cancel my subscription and then start it back up again. When there is no subscription the game feels more like you own it, and you are not renting it to play.

Creslin321

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by imjonah

1...

V

Most of his post are personal opinions based on limited exposure to the game. Going by the first part alone, it is obvious that the OP has not really explored the PvE side of the game in depth. I'd say he either watched a few youtube videos or possibly played the game to level 5, did a few starter hearts and events and assumed that the whole PvE game is like this. It is not. There is a lot more depth do it and when you actually realize it, you'll see just how different the PvE side of the game is.

Just the simple fact that the game revolves around exploration instead traveling from quest hub to quest hub is enough to set it appart from the other MMOs.

As far as the rest of that post... zerg tactics? In mass PvP? Especially when people just started playing? You don't freaking say... I am shocked.

Faction imbalance? There are no factions in GW2, something the OP would have known, had he actually played the game.

Server population imbalance due to time zones doesn't matter as servers get paired up with servers from their time zone. Either way, due to the length of WvWvW conflicts and how the wins are determined, it doesn't really matter if one night a certain server is able to field more players.

Wait, what does "only playing to level 5" have to do with it?  I thought the whole game was "end game" and some positivists claim to have done more in a couple levels than in many levels in other mmos.  Is it not deep at the beginning?  More depth later implies the beginning of the game is shallow and basic.  That doesn't jive with the claims about it being a deep complex world from momemnt one.  You can't have it both ways, which is it?

So he only watched some livestreams and youtube videos according to you, but many many people have told us that's all we need to see in order to make an informed decision.  All the facts are laid out before us to see.  Is that not true?  Is that just a bunch of bullshit?  Again, you can't have it both ways.

So a game that is being touted as revolutionary, a sub-killer, an evolution of pve and pvp, but has the standard zerg trap is okay because zergs happen.  Servers *are* the factions and we'll see how well the pairing works.  It obviously didn't work for everyone on the paid preview weekend.

Just admit it's a game that spins your wheels and is exactly what you're looking for but isn't going to be the "revolution" everyone is looking for and that perspective isn't from a lack of understanding, but from game play preferences.  This game is better for you, but not for everyone.

I don't buy the "different strokes" argument.  The OP didn't say "I didn't like GW2" he said "the odds are heavily stacked against Guild Wars 2 success."  That's an objective statement.

He's essentially saying that GW2 will very likely fail because he didn't like the PvE, and he think WvW is the only redeeming factor but it's flawed.  How can you not expect a bunch of people to argue against him?

 

RodimusPrime

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Have fun killing 10 rats in whatever mmorpg you play.  Truth is, GW2 will kill all other mmorpg's except for WoW and EVE.  WoW covers the WoW clone style of game, GW2 covers the people who don't like WoW and EVE covers the sandbox crowd.   SWTOR will actually kill itself by sucking.   I don't have any facts to support  my claim, but neither does the OP.

Doesn't GW2 have the same kill fetch escort quests as any other MMO? I know I have at least seen some escort quests.  Maybe they are dynamic escort quests and you go into a zig zag pattern?

Eletheryl

Originally posted by observer

Here's the problem though.  People were still learning how to play WvW.  Once the weeks go by, they will start getting more tactical with less zerging. 

Edit: Forgot to mention that /team wasn't working either, so it was harder to work together, and using /local wasn't ideal, since all 3 factions could use it.

Agree, but there is a lot of players who have experience playing Daoc and Warhammer for many years. The WvW share the systems that warhammer online have tested for the last 4 years + 1 more faction. So as a war veteran i saw, and is not just me, the same problems of war RvR in the past, the called  doorhammer, and is not just that, the map is huge, maybe im wrong  but i think you can cap anything you want from any of the 4 zones, that mean people wont defend a keep or objetive if they can take another anywhere, anytime.  I remember the undefended keeps and objetives from warhmmer, gw2 is heading that way, and they still have more problems in the WvW. Also i was wating for something really new, or revolutionary in the RvR, something that could finally work, but arenat is making the same mistakes that warhammer online did, and so many others games.  

BadSpock

Post history + OP makes thread and hasn't returned usually = 1 thing...

Seriously, why do people have such a hard on for the idea that this game is going to fail?

 

Can't stand that other people are getting good things?

Creslin321

Originally posted by RodimusPrime

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Have fun killing 10 rats in whatever mmorpg you play.  Truth is, GW2 will kill all other mmorpg's except for WoW and EVE.  WoW covers the WoW clone style of game, GW2 covers the people who don't like WoW and EVE covers the sandbox crowd.   SWTOR will actually kill itself by sucking.   I don't have any facts to support  my claim, but neither does the OP.

Doesn't GW2 have the same kill fetch escort quests as any other MMO? I know I have at least seen some escort quests.  Maybe they are dynamic escort quests and you go into a zig zag pattern?

 Basically yes, you will be doing those same kinds of actions.  Kill 10 of X.  Bring 10 of object X to object Y.  Escort Harry.

But TBH, all quests in any game are essentially like that.  The difference is all in the presentation, and that is where GW2 is different.

In GW2 you are NOT stuck on a quest giver leash where you have to go to the hub...get 5 quests...go to objectives...return to the hub.

You just wander around the world, randomly find a quest of event and do it.  No quest giver required.  Personally, I think that's a big deal.  It makes the game feel MUCH less linear, and makes exploration actually possible.

Eir_S

Originally posted by BadSpock

Post history + OP makes thread and hasn't returned usually = 1 thing...

Seriously, why do people have such a hard on for the idea that this game is going to fail?

 

Can't stand that other people are getting good things?

There's no reason they can't have it too.  If they don't like it, that's one thing, but even if they enjoy another game and defend it on the forums, it should have no bearing on how much fun they have with GW2.  It's not like the game is reserved for long time fans only.  

heartless

Originally posted by BadSpock

Post history + OP makes thread and hasn't returned usually = 1 thing...

Seriously, why do people have such a hard on for the idea that this game is going to fail?

 

Can't stand that other people are getting good things?

Some people just aren't happy unless others are miserable.

RodimusPrime

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by RodimusPrime

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Have fun killing 10 rats in whatever mmorpg you play.  Truth is, GW2 will kill all other mmorpg's except for WoW and EVE.  WoW covers the WoW clone style of game, GW2 covers the people who don't like WoW and EVE covers the sandbox crowd.   SWTOR will actually kill itself by sucking.   I don't have any facts to support  my claim, but neither does the OP.

Doesn't GW2 have the same kill fetch escort quests as any other MMO? I know I have at least seen some escort quests.  Maybe they are dynamic escort quests and you go into a zig zag pattern?

 Basically yes, you will be doing those same kinds of actions.  Kill 10 of X.  Bring 10 of object X to object Y.  Escort Harry.

But TBH, all quests in any game are essentially like that.  The difference is all in the presentation, and that is where GW2 is different.

In GW2 you are NOT stuck on a quest giver leash where you have to go to the hub...get 5 quests...go to objectives...return to the hub.

You just wander around the world, randomly find a quest of event and do it.  No quest giver required.  Personally, I think that's a big deal.  It makes the game feel MUCH less linear, and makes exploration actually possible.

It's not really random when they draw on the map where to go.

Marcus-

Originally posted by imjonah

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

 

  

  I actually enjoyed myself quite a bit this weekend, and i went in somewhat blind. Granted i knew the very basics, and I must admit to being a pretty big fan of "RvR" so i'd obviously go in with decent hopes...

Though i somwhat disagree with your thoughts, two things stood out in the above, one being that "no one has succeeded in this". If memory serves, DAoC did pretty well for itself. Though, I guess this depends on your definition of success...

/shrug

The second being " players farming rewards and not helping their faction". This has been a big issue of mine with a lot of MMOs released in recent years, it seems as though your own faction is as much if not more of an enemy, than the "opposing" faction. I remember reading somewhere that the developers of this game were trying to steer clear of that, and make a more mutually helpful server (faction), and the opposing server was going to be the clear cut competion.

What exactly are people "farming" as opposed to trying to help? As i said earlier, its an issue of mine, and this will go a long way on wether i stick with the game i would think, so I am pretty curious....

BigHatLogan

Originally posted by RodimusPrime

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Have fun killing 10 rats in whatever mmorpg you play.  Truth is, GW2 will kill all other mmorpg's except for WoW and EVE.  WoW covers the WoW clone style of game, GW2 covers the people who don't like WoW and EVE covers the sandbox crowd.   SWTOR will actually kill itself by sucking.   I don't have any facts to support  my claim, but neither does the OP.

Doesn't GW2 have the same kill fetch escort quests as any other MMO? I know I have at least seen some escort quests.  Maybe they are dynamic escort quests and you go into a zig zag pattern?

GW2 had a nice mix of puzzles, big elite monsters and horde of enemies.  One event had me trying to get grain from a field while being tackled by angry rabbits, you could scare them away or sprint but they were faster than you and if you scared them you lost your grain.  Best solution was to work together with others, with one guy scaring rabbits and another carrying food.  I ran into an event that had me answer riddles.   I would often run into an area and see 25 people taking on a huge horde of monsters.  I was able to just run over and join in.  GW2 has the questing concept done right.  With the downleveling mechanic the events are actually difficult which is a huge plus.  So yeah, have fun killing rats even if some Jedi says it's really important.  GW2 will dominate the genre.   

Deolus

Originally posted by RodimusPrime

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by RodimusPrime

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by imjonah



*snip*

  

*snip*

Doesn't GW2 have the same kill fetch escort quests as any other MMO? I know I have at least seen some escort quests.  Maybe they are dynamic escort quests and you go into a zig zag pattern?

 Basically yes, you will be doing those same kinds of actions.  Kill 10 of X.  Bring 10 of object X to object Y.  Escort Harry.

But TBH, all quests in any game are essentially like that.  The difference is all in the presentation, and that is where GW2 is different.

In GW2 you are NOT stuck on a quest giver leash where you have to go to the hub...get 5 quests...go to objectives...return to the hub.

You just wander around the world, randomly find a quest of event and do it.  No quest giver required.  Personally, I think that's a big deal.  It makes the game feel MUCH less linear, and makes exploration actually possible.

It's not really random when they draw on the map where to go.

 

I'm hoping they will include an option to turn this off. It doesn't bother me at all but I know some will dislike it.

 

Amjoco

No one ever mentions the mini games. I think there are going to be 30+! So, once these games are working will we as GW2 fans have to defend each on of them as well? 

XReigns

Thankfully all thats based on a beta test, and I think they are two months from lunch so yeah lots of time to fix things... They still have not had a full on open beta stress test, so I would wait for that before thorwin out wild ideas about balance and this and that with the servers.  At least then youll see something closer to a lunch product.

Classicstar

---

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .
I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses
   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.
2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 
No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 
    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.
     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.
   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.
I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.
I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.
_______________________________________
   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  
  

---

First sentence you make already shows you have not played Guild Wars 2.

Also this topic PROOFS your realy affraid GW2 will beat your favorite mmo's.

Get over it GW2 is so much more then your mention beloved mmo's.

And nobody force you to play GW2 if you hate it dont buy it ok?

Stop saying things about GW2 that are not true pls have a nice day.

Creslin321

Originally posted by RodimusPrime

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by RodimusPrime

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Have fun killing 10 rats in whatever mmorpg you play.  Truth is, GW2 will kill all other mmorpg's except for WoW and EVE.  WoW covers the WoW clone style of game, GW2 covers the people who don't like WoW and EVE covers the sandbox crowd.   SWTOR will actually kill itself by sucking.   I don't have any facts to support  my claim, but neither does the OP.

Doesn't GW2 have the same kill fetch escort quests as any other MMO? I know I have at least seen some escort quests.  Maybe they are dynamic escort quests and you go into a zig zag pattern?

 Basically yes, you will be doing those same kinds of actions.  Kill 10 of X.  Bring 10 of object X to object Y.  Escort Harry.

But TBH, all quests in any game are essentially like that.  The difference is all in the presentation, and that is where GW2 is different.

In GW2 you are NOT stuck on a quest giver leash where you have to go to the hub...get 5 quests...go to objectives...return to the hub.

You just wander around the world, randomly find a quest of event and do it.  No quest giver required.  Personally, I think that's a big deal.  It makes the game feel MUCH less linear, and makes exploration actually possible.

It's not really random when they draw on the map where to go.

 They only draw hearts tasks if you go to a scout.  So yes, you have the option of going to a scout and then going to each hearts task.

Events however, do happenly seemingly randomly.  So yes, it was pretty common in my experience to be (randomly) wandering around and then get a notification that an event is happening nearby.  It's not the same as going to a quest giver and then doing your quests in sequential order...trust me.