Never played a PnP RPG that was about gear. Always about the character. If your items are more import than your character, then what are you really roleplaying?
That is a damned good question.
But one that makes developers unhappy--a gear-based design is easier and cheaper.
Sad but true.
This is another damned good point. Gr!!!!!
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
E. Gary Gygax.
Exactly.
+1 boots of escaping
Negatory.
I dont think there was ever a D&D or AD&D module release that was was about gearing up your character. There was some about retreaving and item of power, but you never went on adventure/quest/dungeon-crawl because you were hoping that the boss dropped a flameberge +4 of life stealing.
They were about finding out why the caravan disapeared, or rescuing the madiens fair from the band or orcs, or finding out why the farmers on the edge of the county are vanishing, or just hearing about an old ruin with rumors of a ruby the size of your hand still hidden there somewhere. It was about story.
It was never about- hey guys I heard this band of orc may have a bastard sword +2, you want to go clean them out and see? Or hey did you hear that group of wild elves that are attacking people in the forest may have Boots and Cloaks of the Evenkind, be perfect for our thief, want to kill them and find out?
*When I DM'd, I was very stingy with magic items. Because they were supposed to be rare and magical. Which is why I prefered the Greyhawk setting over the Forgotten Relms setting, medium low magic vs medium high magic.
If your olnly experience with AD&D/D&D is a gear grind, I feel sorry for you, youve had a bad DM.
Because you can get that in WOW brought to life on your computer screen.
Story is what I want in games, and it is what I feel consistently cheated out of.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
People like gear progression. It seems to be a pretty popular part of being human.
Look at cars, phones, computers, weapons, toasters, TVs, etc. They all get progressively better leaving people feeling satified when they upgrade to the next nice thing. Gear progression is a part of the human experience, not just a game system.
This statement is just depressing, and truer than it should be.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
I am sure it was Edwin Stannisberger. Now go get him.
Playing: Rohan Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
I am sure it was Edwin Stannisberger. Now go get him.
A good name for completely fictional character!
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
You could argue it was EQ or even just arcade games with power-ups, but it was the ruin of many an MMO when Gear Score (or whatever) became king in MMORPGs. People who think Gear is a yardstick of how good a player is are the worst players in the world, bar none. They know the value of every item in the game and have no idea about what makes a player good.
Always a tricky one, they have mod based progression in SWTOR, the armour is a shell with no inherant value, just differant looks. The mods give it progession value. Not sure this innovation is a hallmark for the MMO, but they tried something differant.
Level and skills have their own issues, but I would prefer or more skill based approach with gear having less impact.
Originally posted by Dibdabs it was the ruin of many an MMO when Gear Score (or whatever) became king in MMORPGs. People who think Gear is a yardstick of how good a player is are the worst players in the world, bar none. They know the value of every item in the game and have no idea about what makes a player good.
initially i was thinking it applies to any game where you cannot advance your skills and only gear makes a difference
gear score certainly is the extreme -- skills dont matter, only your gear does
gear score certainly is the extreme -- skills dont matter, only your gear does
Did you notice how many "don't stand in bad stuff" encounters were in Icecrown? Simple little raiding skill, but something that PuG raiders had no end of difficulty with.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
i've never been in any D&D pen and paper game that i once considered it to be any sort of gear-based progression.
i haven't played it though since 2nd edition though so i have no idea what kind of wierd games these kids are playing these days. i just wouldn't say it started with D&D because i don't think a gear-based progression game is what Gary Gygax created.
note the word "based" the OP used. a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.
I never played D&D, I played pretty much everything Paladium though. While not D&D, those books are pretty similliar in their rules, and were designed to be a more streamline and easier to use ruleset.
I remember those games as being all about character development. You had magic items and item quality, but that wasn't what defined your character. Even Rift, which had robots and mecha like armor, was still about character progression and not what gear I had. I never had a player get a new Glitter Boy that had better stats, they had the same Glitter boy suit until it either got destroyed or was beyond repair and they were able to actually buy a new one.
The first time I remember playing an RPG that was focussed on getting better gear to improve my character was actually in games like Zelda, and some really early D&D PC games that did really bad jobs of translating the rules and always had you finding new weapons and armor as you played through the game.
I couldn't imagine playing a table top game that had me roleplaying a sword and armor, instead of a character that I that I controlled and developed over the course of many years. That's what mmo's that are all about gear progession feel like to me. Like I'm playing an RPG, but instead of a character, I'm looking after gear.
Maybe that's why so many people call them "toons" instead of calling them characters today? You level a character, you just slap gear on a toon.
Gear Progression is nothing more than a ploy to get players to continue playing longer and rerunning existing content. It's there to maximize revenue, by keeping players involved with the game longer, and to minimize expenses, by reducing the need to constantly create new content.
The comparisons with D&D are flawed for this reason alone. Ask yourself, would you continue playing with a group that wanted run through Tomb of Horrors over and over again until they got all the loot rather than go do something new?
I can understand the logic of reward, but that does not explain the aspect of making player skill negligible in favor of gear.
Well as much as I agree that player skill should remain important (and it's not "negligible". It's still important) there's different logic to that particular decision.
Part of the point of RPGs as a genre is to offload some of the importance of player skill and place that on gear instead. By doing so they become a more casual game than something where player skill determines 100% of your success (now 80% of your success is player skill and 20% is gear -- or some other ratio thereof.)
So yeah, I like RPGs where it's like a 80/20 mix of skill/gear, but even in those games you have a certain verticality to progression where eventually you're gonna find that boss where gear is the the reason you lose the fight.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
E. Gary Gygax.
Exactly.
+1 boots of escaping
Negatory.
Did you ever read through the original giant series modules? they had swords of giant slaying for the characters to find to gear them up. Look at the amount of treasure in most of the modules. Look at the treasure for monsters as well. E.G.G had lots of loot in his game even though he was against monty haulism. Perhaps your DMs didn't give out a lot of it, but if you look at the old products with HONEST review, you will see it.
Nope, never read thru. But I did play thru them (well all except 1).
And just because youre getting treasure and magic items to help in your adventure doesnt mean it equates to a gear grind. AD&D was a level grind since most encounters you couldnt talk you way out of.
A person didnt play Against the Giants G1 just to gear up so they could play G2 and then to play G3 modules, that then lead them into the D series, and last to the Q series. Thats WOW.
Just a point of correction here, that's not WoW, that's Everquest, specifically the Kunark Expansion, and it was codified during Velious and written in stone for Luclin.
The idea of reaching max level, then raiding for gear to help you do more max level only content is solely EQ's baby, but it's a natural extension of what would have happened if you played an AD&D campaign which had two things, a level cap and no character retirement.
I am about 85% sure that there was no more than 1 sword of giant slaying in the G series, if any at all.
Your characterization of AD&D gaming sessions... not so on target from my experience... though I am curious why your DM didn't let you haul all the treasure out of a dungeon... did you guys not think to leave someone there to guard it and send someone back for pack horses?
If you are sure about the giant slaying sword, then you are wrong.
You have to look at what the OP is asking. Who started it.
It's like asking who is responsible for airplanes. You are talking about the modern era of jets and fly by wire and discounting the early work. That's how I see what you are doing. I have a specific background in regards to dnd and the old days.
The "Idea" came from D&D...Yes I used a simple +1 stat gear as an example figuring anyone that actually ever played D&D would know about the game and not actually play fanboy and forget things like types of magical weapons NEEDED to kill specific monsters...like wraiths. Greyhawk adventures, which is part of the original D&D had more than a few weapons needed to kill specific things. Each progression in the D&D rule set added more and more...silver weapons for lycanthrops...
So the answer to his question...the idea did come from D&D...the next step was from game developers that expounded on it...and it was 100% of the fault of PLAYERS that they keep doing it because people keep buying those games.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I can understand the logic of reward, but that does not explain the aspect of making player skill negligible in favor of gear.
Well as much as I agree that player skill should remain important (and it's not "negligible". It's still important) there's different logic to that particular decision.
Part of the point of RPGs as a genre is to offload some of the importance of player skill and place that on gear instead. By doing so they become a more casual game than something where player skill determines 100% of your success (now 80% of your success is player skill and 20% is gear -- or some other ratio thereof.)
So yeah, I like RPGs where it's like a 80/20 mix of skill/gear, but even in those games you have a certain verticality to progression where eventually you're gonna find that boss where gear is the the reason you lose the fight.
80/20 is a good mix, the way I see it. And it is exactly what is lacking in the system. Mainly because it is more of the reverse as of now, and that is just too much emphasis on gear.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Comments
This is another damned good point. Gr!!!!!
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Story is what I want in games, and it is what I feel consistently cheated out of.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
This statement is just depressing, and truer than it should be.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
I am sure it was Edwin Stannisberger. Now go get him.
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
A good name for completely fictional character!
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
You could argue it was EQ or even just arcade games with power-ups, but it was the ruin of many an MMO when Gear Score (or whatever) became king in MMORPGs. People who think Gear is a yardstick of how good a player is are the worst players in the world, bar none. They know the value of every item in the game and have no idea about what makes a player good.
Whoever it was...Get him!
Always a tricky one, they have mod based progression in SWTOR, the armour is a shell with no inherant value, just differant looks. The mods give it progession value. Not sure this innovation is a hallmark for the MMO, but they tried something differant.
Level and skills have their own issues, but I would prefer or more skill based approach with gear having less impact.
initially i was thinking it applies to any game where you cannot advance your skills and only gear makes a difference
gear score certainly is the extreme -- skills dont matter, only your gear does
EQ2 fan sites
Did you notice how many "don't stand in bad stuff" encounters were in Icecrown? Simple little raiding skill, but something that PuG raiders had no end of difficulty with.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ditto and well said.
Ing the Conqueror
Gear Progression is nothing more than a ploy to get players to continue playing longer and rerunning existing content. It's there to maximize revenue, by keeping players involved with the game longer, and to minimize expenses, by reducing the need to constantly create new content.
The comparisons with D&D are flawed for this reason alone. Ask yourself, would you continue playing with a group that wanted run through Tomb of Horrors over and over again until they got all the loot rather than go do something new?
Well as much as I agree that player skill should remain important (and it's not "negligible". It's still important) there's different logic to that particular decision.
Part of the point of RPGs as a genre is to offload some of the importance of player skill and place that on gear instead. By doing so they become a more casual game than something where player skill determines 100% of your success (now 80% of your success is player skill and 20% is gear -- or some other ratio thereof.)
So yeah, I like RPGs where it's like a 80/20 mix of skill/gear, but even in those games you have a certain verticality to progression where eventually you're gonna find that boss where gear is the the reason you lose the fight.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
lol I was making a joke.....and I know its made by TSR
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
The "Idea" came from D&D...Yes I used a simple +1 stat gear as an example figuring anyone that actually ever played D&D would know about the game and not actually play fanboy and forget things like types of magical weapons NEEDED to kill specific monsters...like wraiths. Greyhawk adventures, which is part of the original D&D had more than a few weapons needed to kill specific things. Each progression in the D&D rule set added more and more...silver weapons for lycanthrops...
So the answer to his question...the idea did come from D&D...the next step was from game developers that expounded on it...and it was 100% of the fault of PLAYERS that they keep doing it because people keep buying those games.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
80/20 is a good mix, the way I see it. And it is exactly what is lacking in the system. Mainly because it is more of the reverse as of now, and that is just too much emphasis on gear.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.