-delete me-

Fusion

Let this one die, i reposted a better design of the said poll

 

The new and improved poll here:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5035653/thread/353028#5035653

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lock or delete please!

terrant

Said it elsewhere, say it here again.

 

The tiering on traits seems to make sense to me. Some traits are WAY stronger than others, so having access to them at the 10 point range did seem a little off balance.

 

The skills not so much. Each had addigned point values; it takes (arguably) logner to get a bunch of 8-pt skills than 2 pt ones. Now, what will make or break this is WHICH skills are in which tiers, and how many points you need for each tier. If I end up picking skills I will NEVER use with any weapon or build just to get ones I will, I will be annoyed. I lok forward to BWE2 to see how that words and feedback the hell out of it.

Fusion

Originally posted by terrant

Said it elsewhere, say it here again.

 

The tiering on traits seems to make sense to me. Some traits are WAY stronger than others, so having access to them at the 10 point range did seem a little off balance.

 

The skills not so much. Each had addigned point values; it takes (arguably) logner to get a bunch of 8-pt skills than 2 pt ones. Now, what will make or break this is WHICH skills are in which tiers, and how many points you need for each tier. If I end up picking skills I will NEVER use with any weapon or build just to get ones I will, I will be annoyed. I lok forward to BWE2 to see how that words and feedback the hell out of it.

We're pretty much on the same level with that, i don't mind the trait tiers that much, but the skill tiers imo is just too much bottlenecking, which saddens me deeply as the non-tiered system showed so much promise and variety of options!

Ofcourse we will have all the skill eventually, but it certainly makes the beginning alot more bland in terms of versatility on builds and ways to play "a" class

fiontar

Poorly designed poll. Trait tiers and Skill Tiers are actually pretty different, so some people might be in favor of one, and not the other. Also, the qualifiers aren't really accurate and are leading. Just like a political "push poll".

Skill tiers just guarantees that everyone will have more unlocked skills available to them as they progress and will either slightly delay, or require more effort to acquire, certain higher tier skills. People who really want to can still aquire a tier 3 utility skill in the early teens by doing all available skill point challenges in their level range.

Trait tiers eliminates builds that utilize 7 of the 15 most powerful traits when a character has reached level 80. Now, you can only have a max of 2 of the 15. (You also gain access to those traits at higher level breaks than before). This actually creates more viable builds, by eliminating a lot of clearly overpowered builds. The difference between having 1 tier 3 trait in a build and 2 tier 3 traits is a lot less than the difference between having 2 tier 3 traits in a build and 7 tier 3 traits.

There is no longer the pressure to base builds on a choice of 7 tier 3 traits from a pool of 15. This increases by many orders of magnitude the number of viable builds available.

Fusion

Originally posted by fiontar

Poorly designed poll. Trait tiers and Skill Tiers are actually pretty different, so some people might be in favor of one, and not the other. Also, the qualifiers aren't really accurate and are leading. Just like a political "push poll".

Skill tiers just guarantees that everyone will have more unlocked skills available to them as they progress and will either slightly delay, or require more effort to acquire, certain higher tier skills. People who really want to can still aquire a tier 3 utility skill in the early teens by doing all available skill point challenges in their level range.

Trait tiers eliminates builds that utilize 7 of the 15 most powerful traits when a character has reached level 80. Now, you can only have a max of 2 of the 15. (You also gain access to those traits at higher level breaks than before). This actually creates more viable builds, by eliminating a lot of clearly overpowered builds. The difference between having 1 tier 3 trait in a build and 2 tier 3 traits is a lot less than the difference between having 2 tier 3 traits in a build and 7 tier 3 traits.

There is no longer the pressure to base builds on a choice of 7 tier 3 traits from a pool of 15. This increases by many orders of magnitude the number of viable builds available.

Yeah, sorry bout that, kind of noticed a bit too late but you still get the general view on tiers in general.. as it forces you down a path you might/would not take WITHOUT tiers

And there's still the explanation option!

Master10K

Originally posted by fiontar

Poorly designed poll. Trait tiers and Skill Tiers are actually pretty different, so some people might be in favor of one, and not the other. Also, the qualifiers aren't really accurate and are leading. Just like a political "push poll".

Skill tiers just guarantees that everyone will have more unlocked skills available to them as they progress and will either slightly delay, or require more effort to acquire, certain higher tier skills. People who really want to can still aquire a tier 3 utility skill in the early teens by doing all available skill point challenges in their level range.

Trait tiers eliminates builds that utilize 7 of the 15 most powerful traits when a character has reached level 80. Now, you can only have a max of 2 of the 15. (You also gain access to those traits at higher level breaks than before). This actually creates more viable builds, by eliminating a lot of clearly overpowered builds. The difference between having 1 tier 3 trait in a build and 2 tier 3 traits is a lot less than the difference between having 2 tier 3 traits in a build and 7 tier 3 traits.

There is no longer the pressure to base builds on a choice of 7 tier 3 traits from a pool of 15. This increases by many orders of magnitude the number of viable builds available.

I think you put it quite well fiontar.

I myself don't mind the Skill Tiers, however the Trait Tiers I'm a bit skeptical of. So I will simply wait until the next BWE to test it out myself, instead of having the usual knee-jerk reaction that people typically have on the forums, compelling them to post poorly designed polls and vent their frustratrions.

Fusion

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by fiontar

Poorly designed poll. Trait tiers and Skill Tiers are actually pretty different, so some people might be in favor of one, and not the other. Also, the qualifiers aren't really accurate and are leading. Just like a political "push poll".

Skill tiers just guarantees that everyone will have more unlocked skills available to them as they progress and will either slightly delay, or require more effort to acquire, certain higher tier skills. People who really want to can still aquire a tier 3 utility skill in the early teens by doing all available skill point challenges in their level range.

Trait tiers eliminates builds that utilize 7 of the 15 most powerful traits when a character has reached level 80. Now, you can only have a max of 2 of the 15. (You also gain access to those traits at higher level breaks than before). This actually creates more viable builds, by eliminating a lot of clearly overpowered builds. The difference between having 1 tier 3 trait in a build and 2 tier 3 traits is a lot less than the difference between having 2 tier 3 traits in a build and 7 tier 3 traits.

There is no longer the pressure to base builds on a choice of 7 tier 3 traits from a pool of 15. This increases by many orders of magnitude the number of viable builds available.

I think you put it quite well fiontar.

I myself don't mind the Skill Tiers, however the Trait Tiers I'm a bit skeptical of. So I will simply wait until the next BWE to test it out myself, instead of having the usual knee-jerk reaction that people typically have on the forums, compelling them to post poorly designed polls and vent their frustratrions.

Like i said before, noticed a bit too late as it's late

I'd love an option to edit the poll or delete my post to repost, but since both are not available i guess i have to take it. "I got knee-jerked and came to vent"

Irus

Poll is biased, not gonna vote.

waynejr2

Originally posted by Fusion

As the title says, what is the vocal minority's opinion?

Wow, based on you poll, it looks like you have the smart person's choice and any other choice is for idiots.  Nice biasing going on there.

I think if the instant gratification crown is crying or up in arms about a change, that might be a good change.

CrunkJuice2

"The tiering on traits seems to make sense to me. Some traits are WAY stronger than others, so having access to them at the 10 point range did seem a little off balance."

i think the majoritys argument ive heard is though.people generally dont want to have to be forced to pick a bunch of worthless traits just to get the one trait they want

 

tollbooth

Obviously we haven't tried it yet, but I have a feeling I'm not going to like it.  It seems that the positives don't outweight the negatives for this implementation.  Having tiers like this kind of flys in the face of a deck system I believe.

tollbooth

Originally posted by terrant

The tiering on traits seems to make sense to me. Some traits are WAY stronger than others, so having access to them at the 10 point range did seem a little off balance.

Wouldn't it be better to buff the weak skills though then create a tier system?

terrant

Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

"The tiering on traits seems to make sense to me. Some traits are WAY stronger than others, so having access to them at the 10 point range did seem a little off balance."

i think the majoritys argument ive heard is though.people generally dont want to have to be forced to pick a bunch of worthless traits just to get the one trait they want

 

I can understand the argument. But as Fiontar pointed out, there were VERY powerful traits  available for  purchase as early as whenever the heck you get 10 trait points (25? I think)

 

It would be like portal (a 7 skill point purchase ability, amazingly useful, and almost a requirement for wvw) being worth 1 point, the same as mantra of pain  (a fairly pathetic attack)

 

I don't mind a "gating" mechanic for skilsl and traits. I don't. But I feel the skill point costs WERE a gating mechanic. The only reason I can jsutify tiering for traits is because traits that were on par with a 8-point skill in terms of power were accessible for as little cost as traits that were more like a 1 skill point item. If  the analogy makes sense.

terrant

Originally posted by tollbooth

Originally posted by terrant

The tiering on traits seems to make sense to me. Some traits are WAY stronger than others, so having access to them at the 10 point range did seem a little off balance.

Wouldn't it be better to buff the weak skills though then create a tier system?

Sorry for the double, but want to respond here.

 

Yes and no. Weak isn't the same as useless. Look at Mind Slash, the base "1" attack for Mesmer 1hsword. It's not very powerful. Weak damage, short range, decent attack speed..but it causes Vulbnerability, setting you up so your stronger attacks do more. Weak skills don't always need to be buffed. The problem with both the skill AND traits systems is they have some "starter" abilities that are fairly simple, minor buffs, attacks, etc, mixed in with ultimate attacks. Of course some are weaker. Doesn't mean they need a buff, means they should be easier to obtain.  And tougher traits/skills harder to obtain. The skill point system allowed for that, by making better skills cost more. But traits had no mechanic for this.

 

I will stand by my feeling that you should never have to take anything useless to get something you want. It's up to Anet to put decent skills in each tier, enough to give us the flexibility to pick the ones we want, not filler to get something better.

Fusion

I remade the poll, with better "design" here: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/353028

forget this one, it was unintentionally biased and flawed.