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The potential of World vs. World: Strategies
fiontar
Member UncommonPosts: 3,682
in Guild Wars 2
This post below was written by OkuRaku of Team Legacy, not by me. I wanted to share it here, though, because it really shows the importance of actual strategy in World vs. World. Servers that "get it and perfect it" will be dominant over those that think World vs World is "Door Battles".
Strategy:
Supply is everything.
- Supply determines who controls the siege battle (of which objective upgrades are an extension) and he who controls siege controls the map. Many people will assume numbers are everything in WvW but see how many zergs are successful when every type of siege is in play (check below video to see a raid wiped out instantly by six arrow carts).
- Never ever leave supply in an objective you are about to lose, as it transfers to the attacker. You should use it to upgrade, build defensive siege (both stationary and recipe), or if all else fails just to repair the wall/door being attacked to delay defeat. The more supply you leave for your assailant to capture, the more deadly they're going to be in their next attack.
- Never commit to an attack on a defended position without holding supply. In the case of larger objectives, make sure clear supply lines are available - you'll need to send small groups back to recollect as they use their supply. This is the way Dreaming Bay was won, we had supply lines and the defenders didn't.
Don't mass up, split forces
- It may be fun for a while to have your entire guild/alliance all in a giant ball rolling over every objective you encounter but when you face someone who's splitting forces you'll be losing the war even if you win all your battles.
- You want to optimize your attacks: use the number of people and supply that is exactly necessary to win. Anything extra should be sent to another objective / map. Don't forget to account for taking/holding supply lines and stopping reinforcements.
Play smart, know the game systems and take advantage of them
- Right now, there isn't a notification system when an objective is attacked, cross map. But assuming there will be one, have a handful of people who's job it is to send distraction signals by attacking objectives far from your actual target
- Enemies cannot waypoint to an objective under attack. Know exactly what is required to put something under attack and allocate resources to doing so on any objectives near your target. Make life hard for reinforcing defenders.
- Know the details of the 'mini-dungeon' in the center map. This will be a very interesting aspect of that map and it should be carefully considered how players will use it in order to advance your own interests.
Tactics:
- The most valuable thing you can do in WvW as an individual is related to supply: Carry supply, generate supply (by taking camps), defend supply, defend siege, kill siege, kill supply carriers.
- Know how to hide. There will be many groups who just roll around from objective to objective ignoring anything that happens after they leave (primarily because they're focused on getting karma/exp not winning). If you see a zerg coming to a supply camp, let them take it while you wait behind a building with your party, then come out when they're gone. They'll get absolutely no benefit from it in the war.
- Carefully consider whether you should waypoint after dying. Remember, everyone can res, and everyone in your area gets a map marker showing your position. If your enemy is smart, they'll be cutting off your most desirable waypoints, and you don't want to do a long run. Especially in a situation where your supply lines are cut and you had some when you died, your allies will want to res you since it's unlikely you'll be able to get back in to the battle from outside.
- There are many abilities which are super effective in WvW. Many professions have mass resurrects, clipping areas (Guardian), and push/launches. While these are "nice" in PvE/PvP, they're incredible in WvW. There are many cliffs in WvW, cherish your launch skills. Dead allies at the bottom of a cliff can be much more costly to res.
- Arrowcarts can make incredible kill zones but don't think it's impossible to pass. Izzy Cartwright employed 6+ arrow carts to stop us from entering the Keep Lord room after we took the inner door on Borderlands West during BWE1, but we were able to get by using a mesmer to blink by then set up a portal. Here's the vod (first, us getting wiped then coming out on top). Hopefully this counter to arrow carts remains in release: folks manning arrowcarts will have to learn to watch very carefully for that exit portal.
- Don't bang on doors. Outside of very specific instances where it's more efficient to not use siege, it's always better to allocate extra players to gathering supply or stopping reinforcements. A rough estimate I made is for one flame ram hit it's about the same as 10 people attacking for 5 sec (cooldown of ram). That means if you have 2 rams going, for an investment of 10 more seconds of ram time (2 hits) you can move 40 people off of the door to do other things.
- On the same note, don't ignore defenders coming in. If 3 players carrying supply get in, that could mean an arrow cart you have to deal with. If 10 get in, that could mean a trebuchet out of reach that might stop your assault altogether.
- It might be obvious by now, but if not: don't attack a keep without first taking and holding the camps that feed it. If it's well defended, it will be crucial to drain its supply to zero asap.
I tried to keep this fairly generic as the game may change before release, but hopefully these tips will still apply.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Comments
I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.
Theres so many tactics that one can employ to change the tide of battle in two weeks, ambushing, starving a fortress, I cant wait.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
People who think that WvW or open world pvp is just "door battles" or "casual" annoy me a little bit. Their thinking is that the "structured" pvp is where the real skill is at and that WvW is a place to relax and randomly throw themselves into combat without a care in the world for organization. People with that type of thinking is what destroys the fun in open world pvp, imho. It's no fun to just randomly fight for fighing sake with no purpose or goal in mind. That type of gameplay has destroyed many an mmo including daoc when they carelelessly threw together no-holds barred pvp servers where you can kill players anywhere (including in front of guards) with no consequences. Within a matter of weeks, it collapsed into a bunch of meaningless, chaotic pvp and people ended up quitting en masse out of boredome.
It's been proven time and time again that people tend to flow down the path of least resistance. I think what mmos are sorely lacking in are tools to help organize masses of people. It's just way too tedious and people would rather just throw themselves randomly into the fight rather than take the time to orgainze an effective army. It's going to take some slickly built organizing tools before open world pvp truly reaches its potential. Until then, we have to trudge through a bunch of idiots running around like chickens with their heads cut off swinging randomly at everything that is red.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Yeah. These strategies are way beyond the "zerg and door bash" approach, but they are still pretty basic in the context of the entire WvW design. I'm sure certain keeps will offer refined strategies for attack and defense and grander strategies for dominating the point scheme will evolve over time.
Thank goodness they will match servers based on rankings. The first couple months may have some really lopsided match ups, but once the rankings start to actually match servers of comparable prowess, things will be better for everyone.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I'm just praying, praying, PRAYING it stays this way.
I can remember a lot of other games (PS, WoW's Alterac Valley to name a few) that had premises nearly as complex at the start, but some or all of the mechanics were either ignored or nerfed out for a simpler zerg-tastic experience.
I'm really looking forward to a REAL battle where tactics and brains can beat out numbers and gear.
Not needing to have a winner in an extended match appropriate time limit allows them the freedom to do this. Blizzard dumbed down Alterac Valley after people got frustrated at not being able to win a match in a reasonable amount of time. WvW is extended warfare, not an overgrown battleground fight.
I'm sure the format will be refined and expanded over time, but I think the risk of it being dumbed down are slim.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Experience is the best teacher.
Those who end up really liking the game will quickly evolve from simple zergs and whack-a-moling. However, I think it'll be quite chaotic in the beginning. People are still learning how to use their builds, trying new stuff, getting aquainted to ranges and mechanics, etc.
This leads to the simplest strategies, in the first moment. But after this, people will truly get more organized and will play less aggressively and more strategically.
Having followed the ripening of strategies over many a MMO, I am eager to see how it'll pan out for GW2. I have a good feeling it'll be what WAR should have done successfully, some years ago.
Love the strategies and tactics listed in the OP. However, I have found that this kinds of PvP comes down to two simple factors... How well command leads and even more important how well the followers listen. The side that has better potential for both usually wins even when the zerg numbers are stacked against them.
This has been true in AC, DAOC, WAR, and others.
All too often trying to get a large number of people to do what their told is harder than herding rabid cats.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Thats a pretty good write-up.
I am not as optimistic about the player base as you guys, I think its going to be painfull for a long while. Getting them organzied into smaller bands and not zerg, will be the toughest challenge of the whole WvW.
The supply routes will be key, hardly anyone touched them during the BWE, at least on my server, and I spent the whole weekend in the WvW.
Nice post OP. I think it's kind of a mark of WvW when Freelancer (the leader & dude giving orders on the TL vent) spent almost all of his time in WvW during the BWE, when he had previously stated he was going to be doing nothing but structured PvP. There is a ton of depth in the WvW system, whether people realize it or not. (honestly, the same can be said about more or less the entire game, but that's a different discussion entirely).
I'm all for better / more organization tools in GW2, but I can speak to strategy being employed already in beta (and not just by team legacy). I was playing on the same server as the dudes on this forum (I wanna say Maguuma?). I missed the last beta weekend, but in the one before that there was a lot of strategy being used by our server. The interesting thing was it was mostly PUGs. However, we had battles where we used teamchat to orchestrate multiple flanks on a keep; cutting off supply lines; sieging the walls instead of the doors, etc. We actually ended the event winning WvW. As long as the game stays popular, I expect we'll see quite a bit of strategy going on come launch. What's going to separate the good servers from the bad are going to be the ones that have more guilds that actually employ strategy & organize PvP groups for it. I just hope I pick a server that has a good number of groups who do this. May end up going w/ TL, we'll see.
i am afraid, it is not just your guild. i agree, that a well organized guild with army commanders and officers for different units is key to win. you cant perform sophisticated tactics and strategies without organization and communication
and 2, 3 or more well organized guilds working together as an (again well organized) alliance, will be able to do better.
longterm the server, who is able to organize all its pvp guilds entering WvW regulary in one serverwide structured alliance will win. add a well known public-war-channel for all these non-organized players jumping around and hope they will listen. if not, in best case, they dont hurt but are rather useless. these guys may have fun, but it doesnt matter.
i doubt this will really work. thats why i prefer Guild vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance. however, the best organized server will win longterm. i am curious how far players will drive this degree of organization.
btw, coming from EVE, my 1st question when i was entering WvW was: "Where the hell is the fleet-channel?". and the winning questions will be: "Who is this servers fleet-commander today?"
(replace "fleet" by any appropriate term for GW2)
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
While that 'may' help, it's not necessary. For obvious reasons, trying to organize an entire server is a bit folly. It's worked for less popular games (ie Aika), but for games that are more popular it doesn't really last / work out all that well.
What tends to work better is open communication between guilds & public. As it happens, there does exist a system for this, though they are still tweaking it (and there could be more added, of course). It's /team chat and it works similar to how the fleet-chat works (or at least it did last BWE I played).
For one reason or another, I know a lot of people weren't using this. However, on my server we were using this to coordinate assaults / tactics across separate guilds within the same server. No vent needed. While it's not as quick and concise as having 40 people in vent taking orders. It still works fairly well.
Communication tools are key to this. Visual and textual cues to organize players would be helpful, because the majority of players aren't going to be on vent.
From my MMO experience the main reason people formed "zergs" or did "doorway to doorway" PVP was because of the "easy" rewards. It's easy for 100 people to form a zerg to get the phat loots than to try a PVE raid. They want the easy way out.
I remember when they added item sets, obtainable via PVP, comparable to raid sets in Lord of the Rings Online. The PVP zone was flooded with people, that had never gone PVP before, wanting the "easy" loot because they couldn't bother raiding (or was very hard for them)
Same with War, when people realised it was faster to get the rewards if both sides went clockwise, conquering the keeps in turn, avoiding big PVP battles, they ruined the whole PVP experience imo. That was PvEvPvE not PVP. War failed from the start though, because someone failed to give a proper reason for people to defend an objective....
In GW2 the rewards are different, there are no epic item sets to be gained from WvWvW so I really hope it will attract different kind of players. Time will tell but judging by the first BWE this has a high probability of happening.
When I PVP I play for the experiece, the challenge and the wonderful moments. I don't PVP for loootz
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
PVP and even PVE, strategies aren't new. Even BG's have them. The problem is organization. Just PUGing for normal, easier pve content is hard. Imagine making a proper strategy with dozens, if not hundreds of players.
There's also another problem. GW2's pvp feels alot "lighter", not has "heavy", consequence filled, and more casual than other mmorpg pvp. I've said it multyple times, but i think it feels like playing a lobby based FPS, that you just enter and leave. This is good in itself for many reasons, however, players usually are the type to not give a sh** for anything that doesn't connect to them and their personall fun. They don't care if they ruin your plans. With wvwvw being even more casual, players might care even less for strategy than other rvr systems. Remember, they can just leave and enter when ever they want.
QFT.
yep people want to jump in and kill shit. i found WvW to be a zerg fest and i couldn't stand it. will some people come up with stategy and execute it? sure. but the vast majority will not.
Nice thread, fiontar. (doing my part to bump threads back up, lol)
well it could be fun to exterminate these zerging hordes, with tactics. i already hear the whines on the official forums. it will become wonderful.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Its a good post because it opens the topic up for discussion, but like the OP stated ... the repost from reddit is extremely basic. I think those of us that have had the privelage to play games with this sort of PvP will be at a tremendous advantage. I see alot of these "competition teams" who are ironicly interested in WvWvW ... where I seriously doubt they will have any longevity.
To the topic at hand : The game will always be a zerg war, which is good. Past experience in these sort of PvP enviroments has shown me the game will always be a zerg. The catch is how organized is the zerg? I suspect every server will have a handful of Leaders, and those leaders will cycle nights and responsibilities.
You really think there won't be any new guilds that get good at WvWvW?
Completely the contrary , I imagine some new guilds will completely blow us old-timers away. I don't see competition teams having any longevity in WvWvW though. At the outset ... I completely believe that those of us with prior experience in these sort of pvp enviroments will shine though. For how long ... who knows.