What I'm trying to say is that that's the wrong mentality. It's just not going to happen. Players will try other games for a month or so, but they have made such a huge investment into WoW, and so many of their friends are still there, that very few will permanently switch over.
It is really hard for me to approach an MMO with the old-fashioned attitude of "I'm looking for a place to set roots for the next decade". I've been spooked by mutating business models. I've become a little more distrustful of how companies view IP (it was actually Spore's one-sided "we own everything you make" EULA, not an actual MMO that changed my attitude here). Older game worlds seem to be having a lot more trouble upgrading through new waves of technology than I expected. And I've begun to look back a little more critically at how few footprints I've actually left in the worlds I've walked.
the RPG part looks bleak. the mmo part is starting to come into it's own though. with fps, action (whatever that means), and rts mmo's opening the genre to a whole new audience.
factor in that players are going to be very reluctant to switch games
It was a nice post but I would say that this point has already been proven wrong repeatedly.
How many people rushed to buy SW:TOR? How many tried Warhammer? Star Trek online? Age of Conan? And so on.
People aren't reluctant to jump into new games. In fact, I would say it's just the opposite, people are too eager to try new games. So eager that they buy games even if they suspect they won't like them or maybe they let themselves get caught up in the hype or whatever.
Anyway, the problem for new mmorpgs isn't that people refuse to switch games; it's that after people have switched to the new game the new game fails to hold them. We could argue why if you want but there is no doubt that it's true.
I think that most players are already sick of jumping to new games and see them fail but in so way WE are always looking to for the NEXT BIG THING(won't say WoW because I never played it). Games will keep coming and keep failed to be the WoW, but once players stop jumping to new games we will probably start seeing great games.
After SWTOR failed I swear to myself I wouldn't pre-orde anymore mmo but I just payed for TSW. I wonder when Will I change...we will change.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
I blah blah blah but it is a whole lot easier to pull gamers away from LoL than it is to pry eight-year veterans away from WoW.
Do you have an example of a developer that is trying to be or beat MTG, LoL or WoW? Your wall of text seems to be based on that being a pursued goal, but i haven't seen anything to support that being the case.
Sure. Back at the height of MTG's popularity, virtually every board and card game company in existence was trying to beat them at their own game. There were so many Magic competitors, you would be hard-pressed to put a comprehensive list together: Call of Cthulhu, Illuminati, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, on and on. How many of those are still around? The CCG market is down to pretty much two or three: Magic, and Yu-gi-oh or Pokemon. SJG and FFG kept several titles alive (Illuminati, Call of Cthulhu), but only by converting them to a fixed-card format. So a whole lot of companies jumped into the CCG business, and only a few survived, with Magic's hold on the industry never being seriously challenged.
The situation is more or less the same with LoL. League has several million players, while its competitors, despite a new one coming out seemingly every week, not picking up more than a few players here or there. The casualty list currently includes Demigod and Heroes of Newerth, but I am sure that many upcoming competitors will soon join that list. I will say that LoL's position is not absolutely certain, and that they could get surpassed by an especially strong competitor, but I think that is increasingly unlikely.
As for WoW: not many game companies are going to come out and say that they are trying to compete with WoW and attract WoW players, but that has very obviously been the hope as one fantasy-themed WoW clone after another has come from the game studios. I know enough about business to be confident that private meetings with potential investors involved slides showing how many "MMORPG gamers" - translation, WoW subscribers - there are out there, with the implication that if only some of them could be convinced to subscribe to the new game, they could make huge amounts of money. What they didn't say is that it may be easier to convince a casual computer user to switch from Windows to Linux than it is to convince an eight-year WoW veteran to switch to anything else.
Look at MMOs that have been out more than five years, and you will find WoW, with I don't know how many servers full of players - more than a hundred? - and below them, a long list of games that have either been shut down or are down to a few thinly-populated servers. That tells you everything about the industry you need to know.
That's not examples. It's your assumption that the TCG and MMO developers wanted to be the "[game] killer" of their genre.
I know enough about business to be confident that private meetings with potential investors involved slides showing how many "MMORPG gamers" - translation, WoW subscribers - there are out there, with the implication that if only some of them could be convinced to subscribe to the new game, they could make huge amounts of money.
I don't think anyone questioned that. Drawing from the largest existing pool is Marketing 101. I work with many of the people involved in the TCGs you mention and I work in the MMO industry. With the exception of possibly Trion, I can't think of another game developer that has set out to unseat the current rulling game in their genre.
If developers were setting out to beat the existing ruling game, I would agree that the future looks bleak, if for no other reason than it would mean their executive board members and marketing teams were all on crack. The games didn't fail because they set out to beat WoW - each one had plenty of other reasons for their closure.
As for TCGs, they are like bars and clubs. They have a limited lifespan and the business plan is built around that. Get in, make your money, and start the next one before the existing one runs its course.
Look at MMOs that have been out more than five years, and you will find WoW, with I don't know how many servers full of players - more than a hundred? - and below them, a long list of games that have either been shut down or are down to a few thinly-populated servers. That tells you everything about the industry you need to know.
It tells me some MMOs failed. Still doesn't say that any of them tried to beat WOW. You also leave out that there are plenty of successes, but i get the feeling that if it didn't beat WoW, you don't consider it a success.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
the RPG part looks bleak. the mmo part is starting to come into it's own though. with fps, action (whatever that means), and rts mmo's opening the genre to a whole new audience.
Sounds about right. MMOs are expanding beyond RPGs and the level-based class-restricted fantasy games that the platform has been flooded with to date.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think that most players are already sick of jumping to new games and see them fail but in so way WE are always looking to for the NEXT BIG THING(won't say WoW because I never played it). Games will keep coming and keep failed to be the WoW, but once players stop jumping to new games we will probably start seeing great games.
After SWTOR failed I swear to myself I wouldn't pre-orde anymore mmo but I just payed for TSW. I wonder when Will I change...we will change.
I agree but I also think that the new game designers needs to stop comparing everything they do make in the game to Wow and to stop trying to make the next Wow.
They need to focus on making a fun game that gives a new and interesting experience, we don´t want a new Wow with better graphics, the old Wow is still good enough if you want Wow.
I frankly wish there were a few teams that just played pen and paper RPGs and had never even seen a MMO that started from scratch and make new mechanics instead of just using the same one Meridian 59 created so long ago.
The copy-paste developing need to stop both for MMOs and other genres. It is the main reason so many players jump all the time, after a few days the new ame feels exactly like the old one and if I liked that I would still have played the old game.
I think that most players are already sick of jumping to new games and see them fail but in so way WE are always looking to for the NEXT BIG THING(won't say WoW because I never played it). Games will keep coming and keep failed to be the WoW, but once players stop jumping to new games we will probably start seeing great games.
I don't see why players shouldn't or don't want to jump around. After all, you finish content in one game, it is natural to jump to another.
And games do not have to make WOW revenue to be successful. Rift, Aion, DC Univers, DDO, LOTRO .. all have an audience .. all are striving with content update and stuff. Obviously they can make enough money with people jumping around.
It is a fallacy to think that MMO players will only play one game forever.
the RPG part looks bleak. the mmo part is starting to come into it's own though. with fps, action (whatever that means), and rts mmo's opening the genre to a whole new audience.
Sounds about right. MMOs are expanding beyond RPGs and the level-based class-restricted fantasy games that the platform has been flooded with to date.
Agreed, but the real problem is that those games are D&D clones. P&P RPGs are a wide varity, some are really strategic with rather advanced combat systems like Gemini, others are fast but strategic like Amber, some are close to boardgames like Warhammer fantasy RPG and many of them have stuff that are RTS like where you play lords and ladies who rule a realm or lead an army...
There were really 2 translations of P&P games into MMOs: Meridian 59 and Ultima online. All other MMORPGs build on one or both of those games and that is kinda sad but RPG is a rather complicated genre. And D&D is the first mechanics ever made but even Gygax admited that it was far from perfect.
I would love to see the P&P mechanics of Shadowrun getting tranlated into a MMO (the magic system is great), or Warhammer fantasy RPG. Neither of those games have levels and both are more advanced and fun than TSW.
Of course there is actually someone doing this: CCP is making a new translation of Vampires mechanics for WoDO and it will be interesting to see how it will go.
I think that most players are already sick of jumping to new games and see them fail but in so way WE are always looking to for the NEXT BIG THING(won't say WoW because I never played it). Games will keep coming and keep failed to be the WoW, but once players stop jumping to new games we will probably start seeing great games.
I don't see why players shouldn't or don't want to jump around. After all, you finish content in one game, it is natural to jump to another.
And games do not have to make WOW revenue to be successful. Rift, Aion, DC Univers, DDO, LOTRO .. all have an audience .. all are striving with content update and stuff. Obviously they can make enough money with people jumping around.
It is a fallacy to think that MMO players will only play one game forever.
Forever probably not but to actually have a game hold interest for 5-6 years the way EQ and DAOC did for me would be nice. MMO's were about character progression, in whatever form that took, now theres nothing to progress since the generation Me gamers have showed up.
...And your analogy to the CCG industry is exactly the opposite of your argument. The CCG industry is actually a good example of why MMORPGs won't fail and have a pretty bright future.
The CCG industry's biggest game is MTG. But yet Pokemon and Yuigioh both still have very popular circuits. These are the three high rated CCGs and aren't going anywhere. That doesn't mean that other CCG's have not been successful and thrived. As a matter of fact, there are a dozen or so CCGs that have smaller, but active circuits. And this is competing with MTG, which has existed for 20 years. So even after 20 years of market dominance, where, by your logic, the CCG market should have failed, it is still thriving and companies see it as a lucrative enough market to bring out new products all the time.
Now, whereas right now, wow has the same number of players at MTG, it certainly is very different in terms of what it can present. MTG has undergone several major changes. You can say that, MTG has had 3 or 4 different major editions (reversing the stack, entirely new mechanics (not just tweaks), a complete rewrite of the history. In video game terms, this qould be equivalent to several different sequels. WOW is still on its first iteration, and would need to survive 3 or 4 iterations at MTG is. IN the game industry, that is just not going to happen. Graphics get more powerful, computers get better and games begin to look old and archaic. With the addition of free to play, its far easier to get another bored friend to jump on ship to a modern game.
Let's look at a longer running market than CCGS to see an example of how it is very easy to unseat "the megacompany". Warmhammer was thought to be the endall and be all of miniature games. But, a young upstart company, Privateer Press listened to what fans wanted and began making smaller scale miniature games to compete with Warhammer. 10 years later, we have a company who is on the same scale noteritety wise with Game Workshop. Their ability to do someting "different" than what Warhammer was doing will help them get there.
So yes, your synospis is correct in that, companies trying to make easy money will steer away from WOW, but, those who understand that if you present something new and different, will eventually take a large chunk or at least create an equal chunk of the same revenue.
I think the whole Competing and unseating World of Warcraft is a horrible thing to think about while making your game.
And it may possibly be one of the most popular Urban Myths that gamers regularly firmly believe in.
Winner in the same category? "MMOs are dooooomed!"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
the RPG part looks bleak. the mmo part is starting to come into it's own though. with fps, action (whatever that means), and rts mmo's opening the genre to a whole new audience.
Sounds about right. MMOs are expanding beyond RPGs and the level-based class-restricted fantasy games that the platform has been flooded with to date.
Agreed, but the real problem is that those games are D&D clones. P&P RPGs are a wide varity, some are really strategic with rather advanced combat systems like Gemini, others are fast but strategic like Amber, some are close to boardgames like Warhammer fantasy RPG and many of them have stuff that are RTS like where you play lords and ladies who rule a realm or lead an army...
There were really 2 translations of P&P games into MMOs: Meridian 59 and Ultima online. All other MMORPGs build on one or both of those games and that is kinda sad but RPG is a rather complicated genre. And D&D is the first mechanics ever made but even Gygax admited that it was far from perfect.
I would love to see the P&P mechanics of Shadowrun getting tranlated into a MMO (the magic system is great), or Warhammer fantasy RPG. Neither of those games have levels and both are more advanced and fun than TSW.
Of course there is actually someone doing this: CCP is making a new translation of Vampires mechanics for WoDO and it will be interesting to see how it will go.
And that's the biggest misconceptions from those who aren't familiar with pen and paper games. MMOs, as is, are not DnD clones. They are as far from DnD clones as you can be. Ask any hardcore RPGer and ask them if their adventurers mirror those of an MMO and they will say the same thing NO.
Now, look at some good RPGs, and I can compare quests (ultima, old final fantasy series) to how dnd adventures go.
MMOs are what DnD look like to people who don't realy play DnD. Oh, that guys a priest so he must heal, and that guys a fighter so he must fight...etc. MMOs missed skills, made crafting an integral part of the game (15 years of DMing, i've never had a player concentrate on crafting ) and summed up a complex system of checks and balances into the holy trinity.
Now, if there ever is an MMO that feels like DnD, it would make billions. Some games are on the right path, we just have to see where they go. The first thing they'd have to do is eliminate all of the quests. In DnD players are uusally on one quest at a time and may have a bunch of side goals they can accomplish. They'd have to figure out a way to add things like tracking, climbing, swimming, deducing, using knowledge skills. Pretty much they'd have to demphasize combat. In your typical dnd game combat is maybe a 1/3 of the game sessions.
Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....
An MMORPG needs:
Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
Depth -
longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
Community - Only ebver form if it has time to
What it does not need:
Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
Guilds - Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
No End Game
A Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.
No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that.
Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game.
Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks.
To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game.
factor in that players are going to be very reluctant to switch games
It was a nice post but I would say that this point has already been proven wrong repeatedly.
How many people rushed to buy SW:TOR? How many tried Warhammer? Star Trek online? Age of Conan? And so on.
People aren't reluctant to jump into new games. In fact, I would say it's just the opposite, people are too eager to try new games. So eager that they buy games even if they suspect they won't like them or maybe they let themselves get caught up in the hype or whatever.
Anyway, the problem for new mmorpgs isn't that people refuse to switch games; it's that after people have switched to the new game the new game fails to hold them. We could argue why if you want but there is no doubt that it's true.
OK, good point. Yes, players are willing to try new games. But ultimately, they don't stay; and I think the reasons I highlighted are part of that.
One way of thinking about it is to realize that the investment the player has made in World of Warcraft is always there, waiting for the player to return to it. That means that, for a new game to pull a player away from WoW, it has to be better by such a huge margin that the player is willing to give up on all that progression, and to have to learn a new game from scratch, to leave behind their friends, etc.
So, players will flirt with a new game for a month, but they won't file divorce papers with WoW. That's the reality, and that's what we've seen over and over - a rush of new players for a new game for a month or so, then they quietly go back home to Azeroth. And that's going to keep happening, until players tire of MMORPGs altogether and look for something different - and what I am saying is that computer game companies should forget about trying to compete head-to-head with WoW and be looking for that something different, the place that gamers will end up when they have tired of MMORPGs altogether.
I don't know----I really think you're putting too much emphasis on peoples' attachment to WoW. I'm sure it's a factor I just have a hard time believing it's as big a factor as you indicate. Especially since WoW is geting a bit long in the tooth at this point. I suspect that even the most diehard WoW fans are probably getting a little tired of it.
Also, that theory doesn't explain people like myself who don't play WoW or any other game. Nothing can hold me very long. If I try a new game and lose interest I don't go back to my main game I just stop playing MMOs entirely again.
What it all boils down to is the fun factor. People jump into a new game with high hopes and maybe it's fun for a while but the fun fizzles out quickly and they start dropping out of it. Why? Well who knows but I agree with you that game companies need to try something different because I have no doubt that a big part of these fizzling games is the "been there done that" feeling they give people. I mean how many times have you seen people bitching about that very thing on forums? The sheer volume of complaints of that sort must mean something. The big mystery is why are game developers deaf to it?
Another thing I think might be part of it is the way they depend too much on progression as a hook. Instead of trying to make the game genuinly fun they appeal to that loot whore in all of us to try to keep us going. "Just a little more experience and I'll make that next level". "Just have to finish this quest and I'll get my new weapon." I don't think that sort of thing works as well as it used to because, again, we've all done it so many times before that it doesn't have that same addictive quality anymore. I'm not saying it no longer works at all, it just doesn't have enough power over us to be the major hook anymore.
Blah, I could keep going but I'm tired of of typing so I'll leave at this for now.
Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....
An MMORPG needs:
Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
Depth -
longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
Community - Only ebver form if it has time to
What it does not need:
Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
Guilds - Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
No End Game
A Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.
No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that.
Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game.
Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks.
To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game.
Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.
For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.
Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....
An MMORPG needs:
Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
Depth -
longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
Community - Only ebver form if it has time to
What it does not need:
Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
Guilds - Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
No End Game
A Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.
No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that.
Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game.
Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks.
To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game.
Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.
For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.
Actually, and I say this with considerable dread...He is the majority now. The casual player is where the money is and therefore what the industry caters toward.
Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.
For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.
yeah .. 1259 .. i am sure you can find a few thousand people who would play anything.
I don't have numbers. But i have a life and i am not "put forth the time effort" in any entertainment product just for the heck of it. I spend my entertainment time where it is fun. That is the ONLY criterion. I found mowing down hordes of mobs fun in Diablo 3 .. and that is why i am playing it.
I do not find "inconvenient" old school stuff (like camping, or selling without a AH) fun and i won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. I vote with my dollars and you do that same.
Actually, and I say this with considerable dread...He is the majority now. The casual player is where the money is and therefore what the industry caters toward.
You are certainly free to express your opinion but without sources and metrics it's all hot air.
Plus, what exactly do you define as a casual player? I've seen players that have very sporadic schedules accomplish plenty in "grindy" games- it just takes them longer overall. If by casual you mean a player that wants to be rewarded constantly while putting little to no effort into gameplay then I can understand why current MMOs go for higher client/box initial costs because a player that can succeed effortlessly won't stay around long- there's only so much following a carrot a player can do before realizing they no longer care about that carrot, particularly when there are many of them and they are very simple to get.
yeah .. 1259 .. i am sure you can find a few thousand people who would play anything.
I don't have numbers. But i have a life and i am not "put forth the time effort" in any entertainment product just for the heck of it. I spend my entertainment time where it is fun. That is the ONLY criterion. I found mowing down hordes of mobs fun in Diablo 3 .. and that is why i am playing it.
I do not find "inconvenient" old school stuff (like camping, or selling without a AH) fun and i won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. I vote with my dollars and you do that same.
You are certainly free to do that, I beta'd D3 and I was bored to death because click x1000 is not what I call quality gameplay- hell I could get that much depth out of Atari 2600 games with one button and a stick.
Nariusseldon, have you ever made in-game goals that take longer than a couple of play sessions? It seems as though you are the very definition of an instant gratification-seeking gamer and if you can't comprehend the pleasure people get out of completing difficult, long-term, or goals that require teamwork then I really can't explain it to you because you lack the fundamental knowledge of what sets this genre apart from the others.
Sadly what people are calling MMORPGs these days are not what they claim to be.....
An MMORPG needs:
Gameplay - Combat/Politics/Tradeskills Varuiety. Not just killing NPCs or other players. Skill based leveling which means you have choices.
Depth -
longevity - 2 Years of gameplay at least
Community - Only ebver form if it has time to
What it does not need:
Auto Everything (The COmmunity klillers)
Auction Houses - Player run shops local to the city that hosts them is good enough and provides diversity in game for players who like to craft and game.
Mail Systems - Part of communication in game is travel and working with other players this is key to community , travel should be a joy in these wonderous worlds that are created.
Guilds - Should be replaced with ingame political structures, where peopel can vi for power and influence but as part of the game not some iconic guild who has no interest in the game world.
No End Game
A Time will come soon where we get some really well thought out games; And MMORPGs will start being again what they were always supposed to be , A game in a vast world with all gameplay elements available where it is the world that is important no a bunch on nomarks who want to interview and bully people along.
No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that.
Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game.
Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks.
To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game.
Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.
For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.
Bahahaha, 1259, yeah, you sure proved me wrong there.
"Mindless hack and slash" has nothing to do with what I was talking about, by the way. The gameplay itself can be fun and engaging; my post was criticizing the incessantly droll notion that the fact that MMOs are increasingly being forced to respect a player's time is somehow a bad thing. Traveling everywhere on foot (or even on a mount) is archaic. It was a grand idea when players still had their pants blown off by the entire notion of a virtual world, but I have 50 different worlds I can jump into and out of at will now; the novelty's worn off a bit. Give me something fun to do, or I won't waste my precious time doing BS repetitive tasks (be they XP grinding, slow long distance travel, or trying to find the best deal by browsing a hundred individual player-run shops).
That says NOTHING about the quality of the gameplay, NOTHING about how "mindless" the game is, NOTHING about anything other than the notion that it is somehow "noble" to "work" for something in a game is sheer bunk. If you want to, and have the ability to, spend so much time plugged into a virtual world that you would actively ASK for it to waste your time, you are in the minority of adults, and hence your tastes do not reflect something that could conceivably be turned into a M(ASSIVELY)MORPG.
People who love RPG's/MMO's don't necessarily want to play FPS.
The issue is that Blizzard have a product and a consumer base that works very well. However there are millions out there, I am and all my friends are, not into WoW and will never be into it. There is a massive market of gamers who want something different.
What we have here is a McDonald's analogy. Blizzard is McDonald's and they have millions of customers. Millions hate McDonalds and will never eat there. So when firm after firm comes out saying they are taking on McDonalds, I am not interested. Because...I fking hate McDonalds and I don't want the same crap somewhere else.
The MMO industry needs to stop focusing on McDonalds AKA Blizzard, and recognize the millions of players looking for something different.
EVE CCP have done this and although they don't have millions of players they are one of the strongest, most recognised brands in the MMO world. They hire hundreds of developers and still make millions.
The only problem with the industry is the lack of imagination and vision from the investors.
Comments
It is really hard for me to approach an MMO with the old-fashioned attitude of "I'm looking for a place to set roots for the next decade". I've been spooked by mutating business models. I've become a little more distrustful of how companies view IP (it was actually Spore's one-sided "we own everything you make" EULA, not an actual MMO that changed my attitude here). Older game worlds seem to be having a lot more trouble upgrading through new waves of technology than I expected. And I've begun to look back a little more critically at how few footprints I've actually left in the worlds I've walked.
the RPG part looks bleak. the mmo part is starting to come into it's own though. with fps, action (whatever that means), and rts mmo's opening the genre to a whole new audience.
I think that most players are already sick of jumping to new games and see them fail but in so way WE are always looking to for the NEXT BIG THING(won't say WoW because I never played it). Games will keep coming and keep failed to be the WoW, but once players stop jumping to new games we will probably start seeing great games.
After SWTOR failed I swear to myself I wouldn't pre-orde anymore mmo but I just payed for TSW. I wonder when Will I change...we will change.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
That's not examples. It's your assumption that the TCG and MMO developers wanted to be the "[game] killer" of their genre.
I know enough about business to be confident that private meetings with potential investors involved slides showing how many "MMORPG gamers" - translation, WoW subscribers - there are out there, with the implication that if only some of them could be convinced to subscribe to the new game, they could make huge amounts of money.
I don't think anyone questioned that. Drawing from the largest existing pool is Marketing 101. I work with many of the people involved in the TCGs you mention and I work in the MMO industry. With the exception of possibly Trion, I can't think of another game developer that has set out to unseat the current rulling game in their genre.
If developers were setting out to beat the existing ruling game, I would agree that the future looks bleak, if for no other reason than it would mean their executive board members and marketing teams were all on crack. The games didn't fail because they set out to beat WoW - each one had plenty of other reasons for their closure.
As for TCGs, they are like bars and clubs. They have a limited lifespan and the business plan is built around that. Get in, make your money, and start the next one before the existing one runs its course.
Look at MMOs that have been out more than five years, and you will find WoW, with I don't know how many servers full of players - more than a hundred? - and below them, a long list of games that have either been shut down or are down to a few thinly-populated servers. That tells you everything about the industry you need to know.
It tells me some MMOs failed. Still doesn't say that any of them tried to beat WOW. You also leave out that there are plenty of successes, but i get the feeling that if it didn't beat WoW, you don't consider it a success.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sounds about right. MMOs are expanding beyond RPGs and the level-based class-restricted fantasy games that the platform has been flooded with to date.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree but I also think that the new game designers needs to stop comparing everything they do make in the game to Wow and to stop trying to make the next Wow.
They need to focus on making a fun game that gives a new and interesting experience, we don´t want a new Wow with better graphics, the old Wow is still good enough if you want Wow.
I frankly wish there were a few teams that just played pen and paper RPGs and had never even seen a MMO that started from scratch and make new mechanics instead of just using the same one Meridian 59 created so long ago.
The copy-paste developing need to stop both for MMOs and other genres. It is the main reason so many players jump all the time, after a few days the new ame feels exactly like the old one and if I liked that I would still have played the old game.
I don't see why players shouldn't or don't want to jump around. After all, you finish content in one game, it is natural to jump to another.
And games do not have to make WOW revenue to be successful. Rift, Aion, DC Univers, DDO, LOTRO .. all have an audience .. all are striving with content update and stuff. Obviously they can make enough money with people jumping around.
It is a fallacy to think that MMO players will only play one game forever.
Agreed, but the real problem is that those games are D&D clones. P&P RPGs are a wide varity, some are really strategic with rather advanced combat systems like Gemini, others are fast but strategic like Amber, some are close to boardgames like Warhammer fantasy RPG and many of them have stuff that are RTS like where you play lords and ladies who rule a realm or lead an army...
There were really 2 translations of P&P games into MMOs: Meridian 59 and Ultima online. All other MMORPGs build on one or both of those games and that is kinda sad but RPG is a rather complicated genre. And D&D is the first mechanics ever made but even Gygax admited that it was far from perfect.
I would love to see the P&P mechanics of Shadowrun getting tranlated into a MMO (the magic system is great), or Warhammer fantasy RPG. Neither of those games have levels and both are more advanced and fun than TSW.
Of course there is actually someone doing this: CCP is making a new translation of Vampires mechanics for WoDO and it will be interesting to see how it will go.
Shopping for a MMORPG will be like shopping for a pair of shoes. Just look at how many games are in the market now.
Yeah, only problem is that all the shoestores only sell Adidas shoes and copys of them... and I want a pair of boots.
Forever probably not but to actually have a game hold interest for 5-6 years the way EQ and DAOC did for me would be nice. MMO's were about character progression, in whatever form that took, now theres nothing to progress since the generation Me gamers have showed up.
...And your analogy to the CCG industry is exactly the opposite of your argument. The CCG industry is actually a good example of why MMORPGs won't fail and have a pretty bright future.
The CCG industry's biggest game is MTG. But yet Pokemon and Yuigioh both still have very popular circuits. These are the three high rated CCGs and aren't going anywhere. That doesn't mean that other CCG's have not been successful and thrived. As a matter of fact, there are a dozen or so CCGs that have smaller, but active circuits. And this is competing with MTG, which has existed for 20 years. So even after 20 years of market dominance, where, by your logic, the CCG market should have failed, it is still thriving and companies see it as a lucrative enough market to bring out new products all the time.
Now, whereas right now, wow has the same number of players at MTG, it certainly is very different in terms of what it can present. MTG has undergone several major changes. You can say that, MTG has had 3 or 4 different major editions (reversing the stack, entirely new mechanics (not just tweaks), a complete rewrite of the history. In video game terms, this qould be equivalent to several different sequels. WOW is still on its first iteration, and would need to survive 3 or 4 iterations at MTG is. IN the game industry, that is just not going to happen. Graphics get more powerful, computers get better and games begin to look old and archaic. With the addition of free to play, its far easier to get another bored friend to jump on ship to a modern game.
Let's look at a longer running market than CCGS to see an example of how it is very easy to unseat "the megacompany". Warmhammer was thought to be the endall and be all of miniature games. But, a young upstart company, Privateer Press listened to what fans wanted and began making smaller scale miniature games to compete with Warhammer. 10 years later, we have a company who is on the same scale noteritety wise with Game Workshop. Their ability to do someting "different" than what Warhammer was doing will help them get there.
So yes, your synospis is correct in that, companies trying to make easy money will steer away from WOW, but, those who understand that if you present something new and different, will eventually take a large chunk or at least create an equal chunk of the same revenue.
And it may possibly be one of the most popular Urban Myths that gamers regularly firmly believe in.
Winner in the same category? "MMOs are dooooomed!"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
And that's the biggest misconceptions from those who aren't familiar with pen and paper games. MMOs, as is, are not DnD clones. They are as far from DnD clones as you can be. Ask any hardcore RPGer and ask them if their adventurers mirror those of an MMO and they will say the same thing NO.
Now, look at some good RPGs, and I can compare quests (ultima, old final fantasy series) to how dnd adventures go.
MMOs are what DnD look like to people who don't realy play DnD. Oh, that guys a priest so he must heal, and that guys a fighter so he must fight...etc. MMOs missed skills, made crafting an integral part of the game (15 years of DMing, i've never had a player concentrate on crafting ) and summed up a complex system of checks and balances into the holy trinity.
Now, if there ever is an MMO that feels like DnD, it would make billions. Some games are on the right path, we just have to see where they go. The first thing they'd have to do is eliminate all of the quests. In DnD players are uusally on one quest at a time and may have a bunch of side goals they can accomplish. They'd have to figure out a way to add things like tracking, climbing, swimming, deducing, using knowledge skills. Pretty much they'd have to demphasize combat. In your typical dnd game combat is maybe a 1/3 of the game sessions.
you're in luck.
No one over 20 with a job and a life would have the time to put up with this meaningless bullshit. Oh, really, if I want to talk to someone or go somewhere I have to walk 30 minutes first? Fffffffffffuck that.
Incidentally, the mentality that a game HAS TO PROVIDE 2 years or more of content to be "worth" your time is the reason devs feel the need to stick grindy gear treadmills / title grinds / raid endgames in the game.
Oh, and not everyone is interested in political intrigue as a goddamn endgame. If I have to deal with petty office politics in real life, I don't want to have to deal with even MORE petty pointless politics in my game, thanks.
To sum up: this is the kind of game YOU want. Never forget that, but never forget that it is simply not the kind of game that would sell to a massive audience, at least not an adult audience that can't put thousands of hours into a single game.
I don't know----I really think you're putting too much emphasis on peoples' attachment to WoW. I'm sure it's a factor I just have a hard time believing it's as big a factor as you indicate. Especially since WoW is geting a bit long in the tooth at this point. I suspect that even the most diehard WoW fans are probably getting a little tired of it.
Also, that theory doesn't explain people like myself who don't play WoW or any other game. Nothing can hold me very long. If I try a new game and lose interest I don't go back to my main game I just stop playing MMOs entirely again.
What it all boils down to is the fun factor. People jump into a new game with high hopes and maybe it's fun for a while but the fun fizzles out quickly and they start dropping out of it. Why? Well who knows but I agree with you that game companies need to try something different because I have no doubt that a big part of these fizzling games is the "been there done that" feeling they give people. I mean how many times have you seen people bitching about that very thing on forums? The sheer volume of complaints of that sort must mean something. The big mystery is why are game developers deaf to it?
Another thing I think might be part of it is the way they depend too much on progression as a hook. Instead of trying to make the game genuinly fun they appeal to that loot whore in all of us to try to keep us going. "Just a little more experience and I'll make that next level". "Just have to finish this quest and I'll get my new weapon." I don't think that sort of thing works as well as it used to because, again, we've all done it so many times before that it doesn't have that same addictive quality anymore. I'm not saying it no longer works at all, it just doesn't have enough power over us to be the major hook anymore.
Blah, I could keep going but I'm tired of of typing so I'll leave at this for now.
Hypocritical much? On the group of emulated servers of one of those old school inconvenient MMOs there are currently 1,259 players (non-peak) that would disagree with you so your post just talks about what you expect in a game- you're not speaking for "everyone over 20 with a job and a life"- just yourself.
For those players that don't want to (or can't) put forth the time effort in MMORPGs there are plenty of Action MMOs on the horizon or even MMORPGs that allow faster progression via cash shop. Just because some people want nothing but a mindless hack and slash with action every moment doesn't mean that's what all, or even a sizeable portion of the MMORPG audience craves. Every poster that thinks they are speaking for some larger group is full of shit.
Actually, and I say this with considerable dread...He is the majority now. The casual player is where the money is and therefore what the industry caters toward.
yeah .. 1259 .. i am sure you can find a few thousand people who would play anything.
I don't have numbers. But i have a life and i am not "put forth the time effort" in any entertainment product just for the heck of it. I spend my entertainment time where it is fun. That is the ONLY criterion. I found mowing down hordes of mobs fun in Diablo 3 .. and that is why i am playing it.
I do not find "inconvenient" old school stuff (like camping, or selling without a AH) fun and i won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. I vote with my dollars and you do that same.
You are certainly free to express your opinion but without sources and metrics it's all hot air.
Plus, what exactly do you define as a casual player? I've seen players that have very sporadic schedules accomplish plenty in "grindy" games- it just takes them longer overall. If by casual you mean a player that wants to be rewarded constantly while putting little to no effort into gameplay then I can understand why current MMOs go for higher client/box initial costs because a player that can succeed effortlessly won't stay around long- there's only so much following a carrot a player can do before realizing they no longer care about that carrot, particularly when there are many of them and they are very simple to get.
You are certainly free to do that, I beta'd D3 and I was bored to death because click x1000 is not what I call quality gameplay- hell I could get that much depth out of Atari 2600 games with one button and a stick.
Nariusseldon, have you ever made in-game goals that take longer than a couple of play sessions? It seems as though you are the very definition of an instant gratification-seeking gamer and if you can't comprehend the pleasure people get out of completing difficult, long-term, or goals that require teamwork then I really can't explain it to you because you lack the fundamental knowledge of what sets this genre apart from the others.
Bahahaha, 1259, yeah, you sure proved me wrong there.
"Mindless hack and slash" has nothing to do with what I was talking about, by the way. The gameplay itself can be fun and engaging; my post was criticizing the incessantly droll notion that the fact that MMOs are increasingly being forced to respect a player's time is somehow a bad thing. Traveling everywhere on foot (or even on a mount) is archaic. It was a grand idea when players still had their pants blown off by the entire notion of a virtual world, but I have 50 different worlds I can jump into and out of at will now; the novelty's worn off a bit. Give me something fun to do, or I won't waste my precious time doing BS repetitive tasks (be they XP grinding, slow long distance travel, or trying to find the best deal by browsing a hundred individual player-run shops).
That says NOTHING about the quality of the gameplay, NOTHING about how "mindless" the game is, NOTHING about anything other than the notion that it is somehow "noble" to "work" for something in a game is sheer bunk. If you want to, and have the ability to, spend so much time plugged into a virtual world that you would actively ASK for it to waste your time, you are in the minority of adults, and hence your tastes do not reflect something that could conceivably be turned into a M(ASSIVELY)MORPG.
i think most of you are looking for Embers of Caerus. go check it out.
The argument doesn't sit with me.
People who love RPG's/MMO's don't necessarily want to play FPS.
The issue is that Blizzard have a product and a consumer base that works very well. However there are millions out there, I am and all my friends are, not into WoW and will never be into it. There is a massive market of gamers who want something different.
What we have here is a McDonald's analogy. Blizzard is McDonald's and they have millions of customers. Millions hate McDonalds and will never eat there. So when firm after firm comes out saying they are taking on McDonalds, I am not interested. Because...I fking hate McDonalds and I don't want the same crap somewhere else.
The MMO industry needs to stop focusing on McDonalds AKA Blizzard, and recognize the millions of players looking for something different.
EVE CCP have done this and although they don't have millions of players they are one of the strongest, most recognised brands in the MMO world. They hire hundreds of developers and still make millions.
The only problem with the industry is the lack of imagination and vision from the investors.