If you call any vertical progression leveling, then yes the game has levels.
I don't get how you get the classes in TSW. Is it the weapons? If so, you do know that the passive abilities aren't dependant on the weapons?
I call any progression leveling. Just as if there is an ability to have multiple players with the same build I state there is a class system in operation. It may not have traditional classes and it may not be defined by the game but it's there.
You're free to define terms however you want. We're free to ignore your definitions whenever we want..
While I agree that level progression is non existant in this game I still think this is just like any other game. There is no level progression but there is skill progression and gear progression. Nothing really changes that much, you will still go from whimpy to awesome because of the skills you have and the gear you have. Not sure this game is that much of a change from the norm.
I don't see what the norm is. I mean, there have been classless and/or levelless MMO's before, so sure, that's nothing new, but it certainly isn't the standard, so that seems a change from the norm - or standard - to me.
But any MMO, even the levelless ones, have some form of progression that'll lead to a person who has spent a whole lot more time in that MMO be in some way stronger than a player who just started playing the game and who hasn't accumulated yet whatever the person who has spent a bucketload of time playing the game.
Levelless MMO's are simply en average less rigid and structured and more freeformat in the way you choose what to do with your progression results.
"You gain no HP or stregnth or raw power from adding these points nor do you have to add these points in any order other than your next will be more than your prior. You don't magically go from whimpy to awsome because of the number by you picture frame. "
While I agree that level progression is non existant in this game I still think this is just like any other game. There is no level progression but there is skill progression and gear progression. Nothing really changes that much, you will still go from whimpy to awesome because of the skills you have and the gear you have. Not sure this game is that much of a change from the norm.
I don't really get this comment. It is definitely different from the norm. Ability progression is horizontal. It gives you more variety/flexibility, but not more power. The vertical progression is mostly from gaining more powerful weapons, which is a slower ascent compared to standard leveling. Plus, if you want to play with a lower level friend, just swap out to lower level weapons, and you'll be good. There are no levels, but there is progression. Two different people could play the exact same amount of time and gain exactly the same amount of experience, and be very different power wise. One person could focus on two specific abilitiy tree to advance in and be more powerful in those, while the other could spread their points around to many different weapons, for versatility, and not be as powerful. You have to actively choose to add points to the skill that will allow you to upgrade to higher weapons. You could put that off for weeks, if you want to experiment with various weapons/abilities.
It seems that the only thing that you would consider different, would be no progression, at all. That is silly. No one would play that.
While I agree that level progression is non existant in this game I still think this is just like any other game. There is no level progression but there is skill progression and gear progression. Nothing really changes that much, you will still go from whimpy to awesome because of the skills you have and the gear you have. Not sure this game is that much of a change from the norm.
I don't see what the norm is. I mean, there have been classless and/or levelless MMO's before, so sure, that's nothing new, but it certainly isn't the standard, so that seems a change from the norm - or standard - to me.
But any MMO, even the levelless ones, have some form of progression that'll lead to a person who has spent a whole lot more time in that MMO be in some way stronger than a player who just started playing the game and who hasn't accumulated yet whatever the person who has spent a bucketload of time playing the game.
Levelless MMO's are simply en average less rigid and structured and more freeformat in the way you choose what to do with your progression results.
The fact that you can still progress in raw power is the norm. Diversity and skill based on actual experience are the other ways you can progress, but in MMO's the norm is to grow in power.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Because at the start you increase in power. Once you got those talisman and 2 weapons maxed your only half way through the pve. From then on its about diversifying. The entire game is setup around players having SEVERAL builds. Not the option to have more than 1 build, its required to have several builds.
Nothing indicates that, Why would a healer, ranged DPS that can also shoot point blank, or tank require more than 1 build? This isn't some super crazy hard game. ...
Nothing? What about the devs saying you need specific abilities and qualities to take on the bosses in the nightmare mode dungeons? For instance you might need a penetration build/evade build against one boss, or a crit/block build against another or a hit/crit build against a third boss. The same goes for PvP. For instance if "everybody" is doing a high crit build and people start stacking defense against crits, you can do a penetrate build instead.
To me, it sounds like you don't know enough about the game to come with broad statemens like you made there.
Developers say a lot of things that that are over statements, maybe changing a spec will make it easier but the holy trinity is used in most games for a reason, specialization is used for a reason, even on encounters that can not be tanked and the boss uses healing debuffs. Just like Warcraft or SWTOR you sometimes change your gear a little, like add resist gear in WoW or a lot like my SWTOR tank wearing full DPS gear with a tank spec to fit the situation. Your changing of gear has little to do with builds, I realize sysnergy and whatever other effects but there are builds that will be solid reguardless of the meta game. This goes for any game ever created, a top tier in Tekken, a solid build order in star craft, a solid talent spec in Warcraft. At most you may change skills for PvP or PvE as seen in other games, which you pointed out so two decks.
If you only played TSW beta and no other game or MMO in your life I could see how you would think it is developed like that but it simply isn't. You need an AoE skill, Single target skill, maybe two of each and a few auxilary skills like a taunt, heal, snare/stun, etc depending on your build.
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all, maybe a second min/max set for PvP, same DPS skills but more snares/stuns. Like I said, inferno act 2 and beyond in diablo 3 is much harder than TSW ever will be and any class can do it all with 1 build. Most mobs can kill a player in 1 to 3 hits while bosses have modifiers like run speed enhanced, fire projectiles, trap you in place. One build can handle all of it.
"You gain no HP or stregnth or raw power from adding these points nor do you have to add these points in any order other than your next will be more than your prior. You don't magically go from whimpy to awsome because of the number by you picture frame. "
While I agree that level progression is non existant in this game I still think this is just like any other game. There is no level progression but there is skill progression and gear progression. Nothing really changes that much, you will still go from whimpy to awesome because of the skills you have and the gear you have. Not sure this game is that much of a change from the norm.
I don't really get this comment. It is definitely different from the norm. Ability progression is horizontal. It gives you more variety/flexibility, but not more power. The vertical progression is mostly from gaining more powerful weapons, which is a slower ascent compared to standard leveling. Plus, if you want to play with a lower level friend, just swap out to lower level weapons, and you'll be good. There are no levels, but there is progression. Two different people could play the exact same amount of time and gain exactly the same amount of experience, and be very different power wise. One person could focus on two specific abilitiy tree to advance in and be more powerful in those, while the other could spread their points around to many different weapons, for versatility, and not be as powerful. You have to actively choose to add points to the skill that will allow you to upgrade to higher weapons. You could put that off for weeks, if you want to experiment with various weapons/abilities.
It seems that the only thing that you would consider different, would be no progression, at all. That is silly. No one would play that.
I
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. If true that is not vertical/flexible progression. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you still have the same progression as in other MMO's were you will just have more raw power than others with time, just not because of levels.
Diversification can be used as progression also raw game experience is also a form of progression. This can be evident on games with pvp were everyone is on the same playing field(GW1) and your build selection and skill decide things.
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. ...
Led to believe by whom? The developers have said it multiple times that the inner and outer ring are equal in power but different in how they are supposed to be used. They want all the 500 abilities to be equally powerful so you actually have 500 to choose from and not have 100 useless powers.
The biggest difference between inner and outer ring abilities is that the inner ring abilities work fine on their own. The outer ring abilities rely on synergy through the state mechanism and just dropping in a 50AP outer ring ability into your inner-ring build will likely gimp it.
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. If true that is not vertical/flexible progression. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you still have the same progression as in other MMO's were you will just have more raw power than others with time, just not because of levels.
Diversification can be used as progression also raw game experience is also a form of progression. This can be evident on games with pvp were everyone is on the same playing field(GW1) and your build selection and skill decide things.
? What makes you think that GW uses diversification as progression system where as TSW does not, and that TSW has only a 'more raw power' progression? Have you seen the skill and states descriptions? Both games use a limited skill deck for combat, TSW has more flexibility in the way it allows you to form your skill deck from the skill options, and both have horizontal progression in the sense that you'll be hunting for more skills for a long time to gain more flexibility and versatility to your combos.
Besides, TSW has its own synergy system that incorporates more factors and cross skill and cross player interactivity than even GW allowed.
Originally posted by Blackbrrd Originally posted by tares Originally posted by ShakyMo Because at the start you increase in power. Once you got those talisman and 2 weapons maxed your only half way through the pve. From then on its about diversifying. The entire game is setup around players having SEVERAL builds. Not the option to have more than 1 build, its required to have several builds.
Nothing indicates that, Why would a healer, ranged DPS that can also shoot point blank, or tank require more than 1 build? This isn't some super crazy hard game. ...
Nothing? What about the devs saying you need specific abilities and qualities to take on the bosses in the nightmare mode dungeons? For instance you might need a penetration build/evade build against one boss, or a crit/block build against another or a hit/crit build against a third boss. The same goes for PvP. For instance if "everybody" is doing a high crit build and people start stacking defense against crits, you can do a penetrate build instead.
To me, it sounds like you don't know enough about the game to come with broad statemens like you made there.
Developers say a lot of things that that are over statements, maybe changing a spec will make it easier but the holy trinity is used in most games for a reason, specialization is used for a reason, even on encounters that can not be tanked and the boss uses healing debuffs. Just like Warcraft or SWTOR you sometimes change your gear a little, like add resist gear in WoW or a lot like my SWTOR tank wearing full DPS gear with a tank spec to fit the situation. Your changing of gear has little to do with builds, I realize sysnergy and whatever other effects but there are builds that will be solid reguardless of the meta game. This goes for any game ever created, a top tier in Tekken, a solid build order in star craft, a solid talent spec in Warcraft. At most you may change skills for PvP or PvE as seen in other games, which you pointed out so two decks.
If you only played TSW beta and no other game or MMO in your life I could see how you would think it is developed like that but it simply isn't. You need an AoE skill, Single target skill, maybe two of each and a few auxilary skills like a taunt, heal, snare/stun, etc depending on your build.
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all, maybe a second min/max set for PvP, same DPS skills but more snares/stuns. Like I said, inferno act 2 and beyond in diablo 3 is much harder than TSW ever will be and any class can do it all with 1 build. Most mobs can kill a player in 1 to 3 hits while bosses have modifiers like run speed enhanced, fire projectiles, trap you in place. One build can handle all of it.
Not exactly true. One boss you may need 2 tanks, maybe 2 healers, maybe 3 range, maybe 3 melee. Especially when you Get to hardest mode. Maybe u dont need a tank for a boss. So simple example would be a boss you cant melee so you swap to ranged. So no one build will not be enough
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. ...
Led to believe by whom? The developers have said it multiple times that the inner and outer ring are equal in power but different in how they are supposed to be used. They want all the 500 abilities to be equally powerful so you actually have 500 to choose from and not have 100 useless powers.
The biggest difference between inner and outer ring abilities is that the inner ring abilities work fine on their own. The outer ring abilities rely on synergy through the state mechanism and just dropping in a 50AP outer ring ability into your inner-ring build will likely gimp it.
By beta players, devs will say that all 500 abilities are amaizing and super useful.....don't really buy that(this is all devs not just TSW ones). And for some reason all of the premade builds they have as examples were mainly outer ring abilities, I image that its for a reason.
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all
Well it's a theory, and yes developers make vague statements. Still, i've played enough MMOs in my life to know that generally, diffrent skills are used in different types of fights. And that if you limit yourself to using only 7 out of your 50 (or whatever) skills, you won't be as good as a person taht's good at using all 50.
Another simple example: if you have 3 most powerful single-target abilitites and 4 most powerful AoEs in the game, that build will not be as good as the person that has 1 build with 7 most powerful st abilities and a dif build with 7 most powerful AE abilities. Because, when you're fighting a single target, 4 of your abilities will be weak and when you're fighting a bunch of mobs, 3 of your abilities will be weak. Whereas for the other person, all 7 abilities will be awesome in both situations.
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I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. If true that is not vertical/flexible progression. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you still have the same progression as in other MMO's were you will just have more raw power than others with time, just not because of levels.
Diversification can be used as progression also raw game experience is also a form of progression. This can be evident on games with pvp were everyone is on the same playing field(GW1) and your build selection and skill decide things.
? What makes you think that GW uses diversification as progression system where as TSW does not, and that TSW has only a 'more raw power' progression? Have you seen the skill and states descriptions? Both games use a limited skill deck for combat, TSW has more flexibility in the way it allows you to form your skill deck from the skill options, and both have horizontal progression in the sense that you'll be hunting for more skills for a long time to gain more flexibility and versatility to your combos.
Besides, TSW has its own synergy system that incorporates more factors and cross skill and cross player interactivity than even GW allowed.
I was hinting at GW1's pvp. Were gear and skills don't really give you more power. Instead you can diversify yourself more like you mention by getting more skills and of course get better with more practice.
By beta players, devs will say that all 500 abilities are amaizing and super useful.....don't really buy that(this is all devs not just TSW ones). And for some reason all of the premade builds they have as examples were mainly outer ring abilities, I image that its for a reason.
Well, 4/5 of the abilities are in the outer ring, so most of the abilities on a character should be from the outer ring if they are equal in power. Anyway, it's the goal of the developers to get them equal in power.
Btw, what beta players? The ones in closed beta are under NDA or the open beta players have only seen the inner circle so far. The outer circle will probably be open on the open beta for June 15th though, so you can see for yourself.
Regarding the 500 "super useful" abilities, nobody believes they are going to manage that at launch. You will have underpowered, overpowered and broken abilities, no question about that. At the same time, that goes for any game. The thing is that if they are working to make all the abilities equal in power, that is the direction the game is going to go in.
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. If true that is not vertical/flexible progression. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you still have the same progression as in other MMO's were you will just have more raw power than others with time, just not because of levels.
Diversification can be used as progression also raw game experience is also a form of progression. This can be evident on games with pvp were everyone is on the same playing field(GW1) and your build selection and skill decide things.
? What makes you think that GW uses diversification as progression system where as TSW does not, and that TSW has only a 'more raw power' progression? Have you seen the skill and states descriptions? Both games use a limited skill deck for combat, TSW has more flexibility in the way it allows you to form your skill deck from the skill options, and both have horizontal progression in the sense that you'll be hunting for more skills for a long time to gain more flexibility and versatility to your combos.
Besides, TSW has its own synergy system that incorporates more factors and cross skill and cross player interactivity than even GW allowed.
I was hinting at GW1's pvp. Were gear and skills don't really give you more power. Instead you can diversify yourself more like you mention by getting more skills and of course get better with more practice.
Yes, I got exactly what you mean. That's why I referred to TSW's skill system and limited skill decks that by its very nature (and added to that the inter-skill synergies) can lead to as much diversification as GW offered, if not more.
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all, maybe a second min/max set for PvP, same DPS skills but more snares/stuns. Like I said, inferno act 2 and beyond in diablo 3 is much harder than TSW ever will be and any class can do it all with 1 build. Most mobs can kill a player in 1 to 3 hits while bosses have modifiers like run speed enhanced, fire projectiles, trap you in place. One build can handle all of it.
And that is the problem. You state it like it were fact, but you are just making random speculation based on nothing. The devs have said that at higher levels, bosses will require specific abilities to take them down. If you narrowly specialize, you will not have the skills needed to defeat them. They are doing that to specifically counter what you suggest.
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. ...
Led to believe by whom? The developers have said it multiple times that the inner and outer ring are equal in power but different in how they are supposed to be used. They want all the 500 abilities to be equally powerful so you actually have 500 to choose from and not have 100 useless powers.
The biggest difference between inner and outer ring abilities is that the inner ring abilities work fine on their own. The outer ring abilities rely on synergy through the state mechanism and just dropping in a 50AP outer ring ability into your inner-ring build will likely gimp it.
By beta players, devs will say that all 500 abilities are amaizing and super useful.....don't really buy that(this is all devs not just TSW ones). And for some reason all of the premade builds they have as examples were mainly outer ring abilities, I image that its for a reason.
You will be pleasently surprised We have all been lied and hyped to. 525 is the real thing.
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. If true that is not vertical/flexible progression. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you still have the same progression as in other MMO's were you will just have more raw power than others with time, just not because of levels.
Diversification can be used as progression also raw game experience is also a form of progression. This can be evident on games with pvp were everyone is on the same playing field(GW1) and your build selection and skill decide things.
? What makes you think that GW uses diversification as progression system where as TSW does not, and that TSW has only a 'more raw power' progression? Have you seen the skill and states descriptions? Both games use a limited skill deck for combat, TSW has more flexibility in the way it allows you to form your skill deck from the skill options, and both have horizontal progression in the sense that you'll be hunting for more skills for a long time to gain more flexibility and versatility to your combos.
Besides, TSW has its own synergy system that incorporates more factors and cross skill and cross player interactivity than even GW allowed.
I was hinting at GW1's pvp. Were gear and skills don't really give you more power. Instead you can diversify yourself more like you mention by getting more skills and of course get better with more practice.
Yes, I got exactly what you mean. That's why I referred to TSW's skill system and limited skill decks that by its very nature (and added to that the inter-skill synergies) can lead to as much diversification as GW offered, if not more.
Back in the early days of DND, mages(and other spell casters) had a limited number of spells of each level per day to cast AND they had to "memorize" the spells for that day. So if a mage would have three 1st level spells, two 2nd level spells and one 3rd level spell he might take. If he picked a spell that was inappropriate, it might make it harder for the group. Wands helped offset this thank gods. But you could the great mage players vs the average ones. It's a type of challenge many of today's players couldn't handle (aka: they will complain about it and say it's broken).
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.
it doesnt matter...
thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes. Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.
On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content. its another argument that doesnt matter.
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.
it doesnt matter...
thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes. Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.
On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content. its another argument that doesnt matter.
how would you equip that top of the line gear with no skill points? thats the whole point! its straight up linear progression but gives you a ton more choices on how to progress and is a lot more flexible and interesting. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
straight up free open skill based system without any sort of gear restrictions really only works for single player games or games setup like EVE, in most MMOs you would just end up giving top of the line gear to new players(by people who already reached last parts of the game) and making content way to easy and pointless. Also as a story centered game it needs this linear progression to get you through the story. I'm glad zones are setup in straight quest hubs but their is still progression in zones and especially between zones.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.
it doesnt matter...
thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes. Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.
On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content. its another argument that doesnt matter.
Aero knows there is no way to put a number on level in TSW because there are no levels. He/she just wants to pvp right now
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.
it doesnt matter...
thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes. Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.
On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content. its another argument that doesnt matter.
Aero knows there is no way to put a number on level in TSW because there are no levels. He/she just wants to pvp right now
as stated in my post above its about progression and this games is set up in a similar fashion to most other themepark mmos in that regard.. nothing wrong with that but its just how the game was designed. If you are just talking numbers only here than sure no levels yippy!
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
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You're free to define terms however you want. We're free to ignore your definitions whenever we want..
I don't see what the norm is. I mean, there have been classless and/or levelless MMO's before, so sure, that's nothing new, but it certainly isn't the standard, so that seems a change from the norm - or standard - to me.
But any MMO, even the levelless ones, have some form of progression that'll lead to a person who has spent a whole lot more time in that MMO be in some way stronger than a player who just started playing the game and who hasn't accumulated yet whatever the person who has spent a bucketload of time playing the game.
Levelless MMO's are simply en average less rigid and structured and more freeformat in the way you choose what to do with your progression results.
Wait, wait, WAIT!
I got this. Eleventy jillion pages of this discussion can be summed thusly:
Toe-may-toe, Toe-mah-toe.
I don't really get this comment. It is definitely different from the norm. Ability progression is horizontal. It gives you more variety/flexibility, but not more power. The vertical progression is mostly from gaining more powerful weapons, which is a slower ascent compared to standard leveling. Plus, if you want to play with a lower level friend, just swap out to lower level weapons, and you'll be good. There are no levels, but there is progression. Two different people could play the exact same amount of time and gain exactly the same amount of experience, and be very different power wise. One person could focus on two specific abilitiy tree to advance in and be more powerful in those, while the other could spread their points around to many different weapons, for versatility, and not be as powerful. You have to actively choose to add points to the skill that will allow you to upgrade to higher weapons. You could put that off for weeks, if you want to experiment with various weapons/abilities.
It seems that the only thing that you would consider different, would be no progression, at all. That is silly. No one would play that.
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The fact that you can still progress in raw power is the norm. Diversity and skill based on actual experience are the other ways you can progress, but in MMO's the norm is to grow in power.
Developers say a lot of things that that are over statements, maybe changing a spec will make it easier but the holy trinity is used in most games for a reason, specialization is used for a reason, even on encounters that can not be tanked and the boss uses healing debuffs. Just like Warcraft or SWTOR you sometimes change your gear a little, like add resist gear in WoW or a lot like my SWTOR tank wearing full DPS gear with a tank spec to fit the situation. Your changing of gear has little to do with builds, I realize sysnergy and whatever other effects but there are builds that will be solid reguardless of the meta game. This goes for any game ever created, a top tier in Tekken, a solid build order in star craft, a solid talent spec in Warcraft. At most you may change skills for PvP or PvE as seen in other games, which you pointed out so two decks.
If you only played TSW beta and no other game or MMO in your life I could see how you would think it is developed like that but it simply isn't. You need an AoE skill, Single target skill, maybe two of each and a few auxilary skills like a taunt, heal, snare/stun, etc depending on your build.
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all, maybe a second min/max set for PvP, same DPS skills but more snares/stuns. Like I said, inferno act 2 and beyond in diablo 3 is much harder than TSW ever will be and any class can do it all with 1 build. Most mobs can kill a player in 1 to 3 hits while bosses have modifiers like run speed enhanced, fire projectiles, trap you in place. One build can handle all of it.
I don't know all about the game but I have been led to believe that the outer ring abilities are just more powerfull than inner ring ones. If true that is not vertical/flexible progression. I guess what I was trying to point out is that you still have the same progression as in other MMO's were you will just have more raw power than others with time, just not because of levels.
Diversification can be used as progression also raw game experience is also a form of progression. This can be evident on games with pvp were everyone is on the same playing field(GW1) and your build selection and skill decide things.
Led to believe by whom? The developers have said it multiple times that the inner and outer ring are equal in power but different in how they are supposed to be used. They want all the 500 abilities to be equally powerful so you actually have 500 to choose from and not have 100 useless powers.
The biggest difference between inner and outer ring abilities is that the inner ring abilities work fine on their own. The outer ring abilities rely on synergy through the state mechanism and just dropping in a 50AP outer ring ability into your inner-ring build will likely gimp it.
? What makes you think that GW uses diversification as progression system where as TSW does not, and that TSW has only a 'more raw power' progression? Have you seen the skill and states descriptions? Both games use a limited skill deck for combat, TSW has more flexibility in the way it allows you to form your skill deck from the skill options, and both have horizontal progression in the sense that you'll be hunting for more skills for a long time to gain more flexibility and versatility to your combos.
Besides, TSW has its own synergy system that incorporates more factors and cross skill and cross player interactivity than even GW allowed.
Nothing indicates that, Why would a healer, ranged DPS that can also shoot point blank, or tank require more than 1 build? This isn't some super crazy hard game. ...
Nothing? What about the devs saying you need specific abilities and qualities to take on the bosses in the nightmare mode dungeons? For instance you might need a penetration build/evade build against one boss, or a crit/block build against another or a hit/crit build against a third boss. The same goes for PvP. For instance if "everybody" is doing a high crit build and people start stacking defense against crits, you can do a penetrate build instead.
To me, it sounds like you don't know enough about the game to come with broad statemens like you made there.
Developers say a lot of things that that are over statements, maybe changing a spec will make it easier but the holy trinity is used in most games for a reason, specialization is used for a reason, even on encounters that can not be tanked and the boss uses healing debuffs. Just like Warcraft or SWTOR you sometimes change your gear a little, like add resist gear in WoW or a lot like my SWTOR tank wearing full DPS gear with a tank spec to fit the situation. Your changing of gear has little to do with builds, I realize sysnergy and whatever other effects but there are builds that will be solid reguardless of the meta game. This goes for any game ever created, a top tier in Tekken, a solid build order in star craft, a solid talent spec in Warcraft. At most you may change skills for PvP or PvE as seen in other games, which you pointed out so two decks.
If you only played TSW beta and no other game or MMO in your life I could see how you would think it is developed like that but it simply isn't. You need an AoE skill, Single target skill, maybe two of each and a few auxilary skills like a taunt, heal, snare/stun, etc depending on your build.
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all, maybe a second min/max set for PvP, same DPS skills but more snares/stuns. Like I said, inferno act 2 and beyond in diablo 3 is much harder than TSW ever will be and any class can do it all with 1 build. Most mobs can kill a player in 1 to 3 hits while bosses have modifiers like run speed enhanced, fire projectiles, trap you in place. One build can handle all of it.
Not exactly true. One boss you may need 2 tanks, maybe 2 healers, maybe 3 range, maybe 3 melee. Especially when you Get to hardest mode. Maybe u dont need a tank for a boss. So simple example would be a boss you cant melee so you swap to ranged. So no one build will not be enoughBy beta players, devs will say that all 500 abilities are amaizing and super useful.....don't really buy that(this is all devs not just TSW ones). And for some reason all of the premade builds they have as examples were mainly outer ring abilities, I image that its for a reason.
Well it's a theory, and yes developers make vague statements. Still, i've played enough MMOs in my life to know that generally, diffrent skills are used in different types of fights. And that if you limit yourself to using only 7 out of your 50 (or whatever) skills, you won't be as good as a person taht's good at using all 50.
Another simple example: if you have 3 most powerful single-target abilitites and 4 most powerful AoEs in the game, that build will not be as good as the person that has 1 build with 7 most powerful st abilities and a dif build with 7 most powerful AE abilities. Because, when you're fighting a single target, 4 of your abilities will be weak and when you're fighting a bunch of mobs, 3 of your abilities will be weak. Whereas for the other person, all 7 abilities will be awesome in both situations.
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I was hinting at GW1's pvp. Were gear and skills don't really give you more power. Instead you can diversify yourself more like you mention by getting more skills and of course get better with more practice.
Well, 4/5 of the abilities are in the outer ring, so most of the abilities on a character should be from the outer ring if they are equal in power. Anyway, it's the goal of the developers to get them equal in power.
Btw, what beta players? The ones in closed beta are under NDA or the open beta players have only seen the inner circle so far. The outer circle will probably be open on the open beta for June 15th though, so you can see for yourself.
Regarding the 500 "super useful" abilities, nobody believes they are going to manage that at launch. You will have underpowered, overpowered and broken abilities, no question about that. At the same time, that goes for any game. The thing is that if they are working to make all the abilities equal in power, that is the direction the game is going to go in.
Yes, I got exactly what you mean. That's why I referred to TSW's skill system and limited skill decks that by its very nature (and added to that the inter-skill synergies) can lead to as much diversification as GW offered, if not more.
And that is the problem. You state it like it were fact, but you are just making random speculation based on nothing. The devs have said that at higher levels, bosses will require specific abilities to take them down. If you narrowly specialize, you will not have the skills needed to defeat them. They are doing that to specifically counter what you suggest.
You will be pleasently surprised
We have all been lied and hyped to. 525 is the real thing.
Back in the early days of DND, mages(and other spell casters) had a limited number of spells of each level per day to cast AND they had to "memorize" the spells for that day. So if a mage would have three 1st level spells, two 2nd level spells and one 3rd level spell he might take. If he picked a spell that was inappropriate, it might make it harder for the group. Wands helped offset this thank gods. But you could the great mage players vs the average ones. It's a type of challenge many of today's players couldn't handle (aka: they will complain about it and say it's broken).
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Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.
it doesnt matter...
thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes. Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.
On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content. its another argument that doesnt matter.
Has someone on the official forums wrote "We can agree there's no levels. Only levels" Sounds good to me. Who wants pizza?
how would you equip that top of the line gear with no skill points? thats the whole point! its straight up linear progression but gives you a ton more choices on how to progress and is a lot more flexible and interesting. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
straight up free open skill based system without any sort of gear restrictions really only works for single player games or games setup like EVE, in most MMOs you would just end up giving top of the line gear to new players(by people who already reached last parts of the game) and making content way to easy and pointless. Also as a story centered game it needs this linear progression to get you through the story. I'm glad zones are setup in straight quest hubs but their is still progression in zones and especially between zones.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Aero knows there is no way to put a number on level in TSW because there are no levels. He/she just wants to pvp right now
as stated in my post above its about progression and this games is set up in a similar fashion to most other themepark mmos in that regard.. nothing wrong with that but its just how the game was designed. If you are just talking numbers only here than sure no levels yippy!
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg