Maybe it's better that you aren't in the human resource spot of a MMO company then? ;-)
Oh, I'm far from the only MMO company that hasn't hired him.
And I noticed the non-answer.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Maybe it's better that you aren't in the human resource spot of a MMO company then? ;-)
Oh, I'm far from the only MMO company that hasn't hired him.
And I noticed the non-answer.
I answered - just accidentally posted too fast and had to edit. My edit happened before you posted your answer, too, so we possibly have posted at the same time
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
You just don't "roll the dice" when you hire someone - you talk about a project first.
OK, so we'll play with the edit next.
You do roll the dice...eventually, after the talk talk, you have to decide whether the prospective employee seems like a good risk, or doesn't. You must take a risk.
Companies that do the hiriing seem unwilling to take that risk, at his pay grade, despite the past (or because of the past). That's why RG is involved in a startup at last report. Maybe as an individual he has proven less weighty in favor of a project turning into a "win" that his reputation would indicate. Maybe as distantly related fans of the genre, we're not equipped to make that call--we're just equipped for the talk talk, and only in the most uninformed possible way.
Volunteer unpaid public relations brigade? About the furthest thing I can imagine from the traditional idea of "gamer".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You just don't "roll the dice" when you hire someone - you talk about a project first.
OK, so we'll play with the edit next.
You do roll the dice...eventually, after the talk talk, you have to decide whether the prospective employee seems like a good risk, or doesn't. You must take a risk.
Companies that do the hiriing seem unwilling to take that risk, at his pay grade, despite the past (or because of the past). That's why RG is involved in a startup at last report. Maybe as an individual he has proven less weighty in favor of a project turning into a "win" that his reputation would indicate. Maybe as distantly related fans of the genre, we're not equipped to make that call--we're just equipped for the talk talk, and only in the most uninformed possible way.
Volunteer unpaid public relations brigade? About the furthest thing I can imagine from the traditional idea of "gamer".
You assume a lot in that answer. For instance, you assume that Garriot is looking for a job in a company, and that companies don't want to take "the risk" (lol...) to hire him.
For someone pretending we are not "equiped to make that call", you make a lot of conclusions based on pure assumptions.
As I said, "spitting" on who or what is (or was) successful is popular and easy, simple fun. People love to blame Blizzard for all kind of plagues, or Bill Gates... or Richard Garriot. Yet nobody on this forum achieved anything even remotely similar to those people (in the gaming industry, of course).
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I still would like to pick his brain though, definitely a visionary of his time.
Ugh, can you imagine if someone drug him (kicking and screaming) into this environment for a QA session?
Spend a lot of time hangng out with developers in the 80s? That's what the cons were for. (We can't hold our booze.)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You assume a lot in that answer. For instance, you assume that Garriot is looking for a job in a company, and that companies don't want to take "the risk" (lol...) to hire him.
For someone pretending we are not "equiped to make that call", you make a lot of conclusions based on pure assumptions.
Yes, of course, just dimly-remembered yammer yammer threads from this very site. Does NCSoft count?
Yet nobody on this forum achieved anything even remotely similar to those people (in the gaming industry, of course).
You're stuck on that one, we're required to out-achieve him in order to form an opinion contrary to and less extreme than hero worship?
Joey: I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense. [Kareem's getting mad]
Uh oh. Don't think the Lakers will pay me to try.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Original UO had its charms, and in general I support and want sandbox play.
However there seems to have been an unholy association formed between sandbox and FFA PVP with full/loot. What happened in old UO - and what led to Trammel - was the impact this had on the overall player base and game atmosphere. While arguably everyone can enjoy FFA full loot in some circumstance, having it 24/7 was too much for most people. It also brought out the worst in people, in terms of the taunting and hate /tells. If was a griefers paradise.
Yes yes yes, people will argue "you just need to toughen up! or "its only a game!" But the reality of the matter is that if you have FFA full loot PVP, you are basically putting the direction of your game in the hands of a sub-set of players who flourish in that environment. Unlike crafting or questing, in PVP the players are imposing on each other, in essence taking control of the game experience of other players by killing and looting them. A small subset can have a much larger impact and what you end up with is a race to the bottom as the nastiest part of the player base imposes its will on the others.
"But we want good PVP!" you say. Well, what really happens in FFA full loot is far from that. People in fact want: a) loot; b) not to be looted. So PVP tends towards ganking, e.g. large groups killing smaller or a well-equipped veteran character preying on newer players who are unable to effectively defend themselves. On the group scale, server dynamics tend towards zergs, an unhealthy development for small guilds and individual style players. You also encourage exploits, since the stakes are higher (I can lose my stuff, hence I will use that spin move exploit that insta-restores my health due to an unfixed bug).
In full loot FFA PVP games, the server forums also turn into cess pools dominated by the constant trash talk of a few players or guilds.
Full loot FFA PVP magnifies any flaws in a PVP system. Because the stakes are higher, people rush to play the same cookie-cutter overpowered template. Then, if that is balanced by the developers, they rush to the next one. Naked mages, tank mages, etc. You end up with ninety percent of the forums being dominated by arguments and complaints about the PVP system. Developers end up having to devote a huge and disproportionate amount of time to the PVP system since it has such impact on the rest of the game, and this is to the detriment of working on other parts of the game world systems.
Finally, people need to remember that the mentality of the "hard core" PVPer is that "if I can kill something then I MUST kill something!" Aside from the "red is dead" mentality which basically crushes any meaningful in-game interactions besides swinging a sword at someone's head, you have an impact on the other parts of the environment. For example, in old UO Raph Koster created this vibrant ecosystem model of different animals. It immediately collapsed as players fanned out from town killing anything that moved, whether they needed the hides and meat or not.
So while I agree in principle with how great FFA PVP with full loot can be, lets get real about its track record. It has failed utterly with a mass audience. Most people do NOT want to be coming back with their hard-earned treasure from a lengthy dungeon crawl only to be jumped and despoiled on the road by pWnU and his bunch of 15-year old buddies, who accompany their one-sided victory with profane hate tells. Most people do NOT want to have to join a zerg guild just to ensure they can survive when they leave town. Most people do NOT want to have their entire play experience subject to the whims of the PVP system.
So while I have sympathy for those who enjoy FFA full loot PVP, the fact of the matter is that we have seen how problematic that is. Some games have done well with versions of it, e.g. EVE Online. But in its purest form, original UO, it was turning into a disaster and to avoid that they invented Trammel.
In the final analysis, the full loot FFA PVP community is its own worst enemy. No game world population can flourish when all its direction is placed in the hands of a subset of players who make the rules for everyone else. Crafter, explorer, socializer - everyone must bend the knee to ikEELj00 and his friends. Or even worse, be forced to become them just to play the game.
Original UO had its charms, and in general I support and want sandbox play.
However there seems to have been an unholy association formed between sandbox and FFA PVP with full/loot. What happened in old UO - and what led to Trammel - was the impact this had on the overall player base and game atmosphere. While arguably everyone can enjoy FFA full loot in some circumstance, having it 24/7 was too much for most people. It also brought out the worst in people, in terms of the taunting and hate /tells. If was a griefers paradise.
Yes yes yes, people will argue "you just need to toughen up! or "its only a game!" But the reality of the matter is that if you have FFA full loot PVP, you are basically putting the direction of your game in the hands of a sub-set of players who flourish in that environment. Unlike crafting or questing, in PVP the players are imposing on each other, in essence taking control of the game experience of other players by killing and looting them. A small subset can have a much larger impact and what you end up with is a race to the bottom as the nastiest part of the player base imposes its will on the others.
"But we want good PVP!" you say. Well, what really happens in FFA full loot is far from that. People in fact want: a) loot; b) not to be looted. So PVP tends towards ganking, e.g. large groups killing smaller or a well-equipped veteran character preying on newer players who are unable to effectively defend themselves. On the group scale, server dynamics tend towards zergs, an unhealthy development for small guilds and individual style players. You also encourage exploits, since the stakes are higher (I can lose my stuff, hence I will use that spin move exploit that insta-restores my health due to an unfixed bug).
In full loot FFA PVP games, the server forums also turn into cess pools dominated by the constant trash talk of a few players or guilds.
Finally, full loot FFA PVP magnifies any flaws in a PVP system. Because the stakes are higher, people rush to play the same cookie-cutter overpowered template. Then, if that is balanced by the developers, they rush to the next one. Naked mages, tank mages, etc. You end up with ninety percent of the forums being dominated by arguments and complaints about the PVP system. Developers end up having to devote a huge and disproportionate amount of time to the PVP system since it has such impact on the rest of the game, and this is to the detriment of working on other parts of the game world systems.
Finally, people need to remember that the mentality of the "hard core" PVPer is that "if I can kill something then I MUST kill something!" Aside from the "red is dead" mentality which basically crushes any meaningful in-game interactions besides swinging a sword at someone's head, you have an impact on the other parts of the environment. For example, in old UP Raph Koster created this vibrant ecosystem model of different animals. It immediately collapsed as players fanned out from town killing anything that moved, whether they needed to hides or meat or not.
So while I agree in principle with how great FFA PVP with full loot can be, lets get real about its track record. It has failed utterly with a mass audience. Most people do NOT want to be coming back with their hard-earned treasure from a lengthy dungeon crawl only to be jumped and despoiled on the road by pWnU and his bunch of 15-year old buddies, who accompany their one-sided victory with profane hate tells. Most people do NOT want to have to join a zerg guild just to ensure they can survive when they leave town. Most people do NOT want to have their entire play experience subject to the whims of the PVP system.
This is one of the most well written posts on that topic I've read in ages - thank you, friend, for expressing what I feel about the confusion between "sandbox MMORPG" and "FFA PvP" in such a nice, clear, and well written way.
PvP is the highest way for a player to affect another player - and that's the obvious reason why it must be controlled and restricted so it doesn't take over the whole game.
I'm not sure your post fits perfectly in this thread, but I for sure will keep it bookmarked for quotation in future topics about this specific problem.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
For me FFA fill loot PVP totally makes the game for me.. the amonut of fun it brings into the game knowing you could loose everything you have.. well nothing comes close to it..
Sure its not for everyone but lots of people do enjoy it... check out Dayz for instance..
Maybe games like Darkfall didnt do too well was because of the amount of time it took to develop your character and because of the full loot.. but again that was somthing i really enjoyed but can also see why a lot of people hated it..
This is one of the most well written posts on that topic I've read in ages - thank you, friend, for expressing what I feel about the confusion between "sandbox MMORPG" and "FFA PvP" in such a nice, clear, and well written way.
PvP is the highest way for a player to affect another player - and that's the obvious reason why it must be controlled and restricted so it doesn't take over the whole game.
I'm not sure your post fits perfectly in this thread, but I for sure will keep it bookmarked for quotation in future topics about this specific problem.
Thanks for your kind words. I have come to this position through some evolution based on hard experience.
Many "hard core" PVPers who want full loot FFA PVP complain that opponents are a bunch of "care bears" who simply are timorous souls unable to hack it. Well, I have years of FFA full loot PVP under my belt (or modified full loot, e.g. Shadowbane). So I have walked the walk.
Yes, it can be exhilarating. But it has to be balanced with the entire game population in mind. You are making a game experience for all kinds of people, not just the virtual predators. It should not all be just about them and their fun. It should be about everyone's fun. You cannot build that shared journey if you place your game's destiny solely in the hands of the "I keel j00" crowd.
Sure, Cujo, but what's Richard Garriot's track record since UO? UO was 1998-ish time frame. Almost 15 years ago. Tabula Rasa was his last prolific involvement with MMORPGs & RPGs. I will never fault Garriott for his past, overall accomplishments up to UO, and what he did for RPGs and MMORPGs in general. But let me be blunt though:
Lord British has been gone for more than 10 years now. He died with the 1990s.
If UO was the only thing he had made that might be somewhat persuasive. But Garriot made Akalabeth, Ultima 7, Ultima Underworld, Ultima Online.
He made an visionary RPG in every major era of RPG gaming.
The last 8-ish years RG was mostly being a manager and not hand on dev/designer. Even on TR. TR had a long history of various problems. The orginal development was completely different on the game.
I have no idea if he will ever make a good game again. But anyone who thinks he has no good input on RPGs is just shooting themselves in the foot. He is probably the most influential figure in CRPGs still alive (Gygax and Arnusen are dead).
You a Dev house like Blizzard has a major IP in Diablo (of which they don't even have the people who actually made the original working for them anymore) and that game basically ripped 70% of its gameply from rogue-like games.
The games Blizzard took their ideas from where heavily influenced by RG's games. Even the rogue-likes. Ultima 4-7 changed cRPGs forever.
Even if UO never existed EQ will still owe its existence to RG.
That people can just throw that kind of accomplishment out the window amazes me. He made his first few games at home as a hobby and packaged them in ziploc bags. You can't get more indie than how Akallabeth started.
I don't think you read my post all the way...
He did alot for RPGs and MMORPGs. But that's all looonngg ago in the past now. 1980s, 1990s. His last unquestioned success is UO, which is a late 90s game.
It is now Two Thousand freaking Twelve. Again, his last prolific project was TR, and that died within a year of going live, and its troubled development is well known. He hasn't touched RPGs or MMORPGs since. The last couple things I really know of significance RG did was sheisting millions out of NCSoft and those crazy trips to space. Not RPG or MMORPG development. But sheisting money and space flights. Think about that.
Richard Garriott did alot. LONG AGO. And hasn't done anything in any positive light for RPGs or MMORPGs in general. He is, and I'm going to say it... a has-been.
The last time Richard Garriott did anything positive for RPGs or MMORPGs in general? Bill Clinton was still President of the US, James Cameron's Titanic came out recently at the time, and freakin' Britney Spears was a new act. That is a long time ago.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Ok i feel i need to clarify my Tablua Rasa jibe... RG have a lot of ideas... most pretty good on paper... Thing is though that outside of the off-line RPG scene his ideas tend to get away from him and end up rather messy. Like Tabula Rasa (it has a very interesting development) now it was not all his fault with that game.. A lot went worng.
Also for the peopel that talk about Ultima Online 2
I just mean that past achievements don't disapear magically with time.
So put yourself in the human resources spot--would you roll the dice and hire him?
I certainly wouldn't.
And past debacle don't disappear magically with time either.
No one will hire him after the horrible Tabula Rasa fiasco. It shows that having some success in the 90s does not mean that he knows how to develop a modern game in 2010.
Will you hire a heart surgeon whose last successful surgery is in the 1990s? I wouldn't.
You guys do realize Tabula Rasa didn't fail because "it failed" but rather some disagreement with NCSoft and Richard's "Options" in the company. They didn't want him to walk away with a lot of money in his option and by killing his game they were sure they had no value so they won't owe him anything.
I didn't like the game though and I'm not a fan of the designer. But truth needs to be said.
Einstein came up with the Theory of Relativity before the age of 30, after that, nothing approaching that for the remainer of his life..
Yeah, seem like this is a curse in the MMO space, some of the "big names", Koster, Garriot, and others, did their best work right out of the gate, and since then, a lot of not much.
Seems like pure creativity and risk taking was a casualty of success in this industry...
No one will hire him after the horrible Tabula Rasa fiasco.
Um ... this is a man who took a vacation in space. I don't think companies hire him so much as he hires them.
Which says a lot about his work ethics and motivation. And it does not matter what excuse you find for him. He has NO track record since the 1990s and technologies have changed a great deal then.
Einstein came up with the Theory of Relativity before the age of 30, after that, nothing approaching that for the remainer of his life..
And his PR praise was taken over by other people (different in the actual physics camp, respect without hero-worship), and kept rolling long after his death.
Accidentally, a pretty good analogy.
Wonder how Koster and Garriot feel about these fans who will voluntarily leap to their defense, necessary or not.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't defend people because I'm a fan, but because I don't like seeing hate go unchallenged.
Neither do I. But are the white knights sometimes a wee too aggressive and eager in defense??
This is the same behavior that people despise so much from fanboys.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Which says a lot about his work ethics and motivation. And it does not matter what excuse you find for him. He has NO track record since the 1990s and technologies have changed a great deal then.
I can understand a little frustration with posts like the OP's assumption that he has a magic wand that can create a gamer's personal heavan on demand. But I think you've over-reached a little by calling into question his work ethic. When I look at his interviews, the amount of thinking he's doing about where the industry is going and where he is focusing his attention, I may not agree with everything he says but I have very, very hard time suggesting that there is stightest dent in his motivation.
I don't defend people because I'm a fan, but because I don't like seeing hate go unchallenged.
Neither do I. But are the white knights sometimes a wee too aggressive and eager in defense??
This is the same behavior that people despise so much from fanboys.
I suspect for all sides, it's sometimes a bit tricky to find the right volume between offering a flimsy straw man argument and burning the opposition to the ground.
Comments
Maybe it's better that you aren't in the human resource spot of a MMO company then? ;-)
You just don't "roll the dice" when you hire someone - you talk about a project first.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Oh, I'm far from the only MMO company that hasn't hired him.
And I noticed the non-answer.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I answered - just accidentally posted too fast and had to edit. My edit happened before you posted your answer, too, so we possibly have posted at the same time
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
OK, so we'll play with the edit next.
You do roll the dice...eventually, after the talk talk, you have to decide whether the prospective employee seems like a good risk, or doesn't. You must take a risk.
Companies that do the hiriing seem unwilling to take that risk, at his pay grade, despite the past (or because of the past). That's why RG is involved in a startup at last report. Maybe as an individual he has proven less weighty in favor of a project turning into a "win" that his reputation would indicate. Maybe as distantly related fans of the genre, we're not equipped to make that call--we're just equipped for the talk talk, and only in the most uninformed possible way.
Volunteer unpaid public relations brigade? About the furthest thing I can imagine from the traditional idea of "gamer".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The Richard Garriot of old was excellent, however time changes everyone, if he wants to do browser base games, so be it.
I still would like to pick his brain though, definitely a visionary of his time.
Tabula Rasa was brought out before it time and not implemented right.
A few idea changes in that game and you would have had a great mmo game still going.
However Ultima is why I still play RPG type games till today and it started on my old Commodore 64 computer.
You assume a lot in that answer. For instance, you assume that Garriot is looking for a job in a company, and that companies don't want to take "the risk" (lol...) to hire him.
For someone pretending we are not "equiped to make that call", you make a lot of conclusions based on pure assumptions.
As I said, "spitting" on who or what is (or was) successful is popular and easy, simple fun. People love to blame Blizzard for all kind of plagues, or Bill Gates... or Richard Garriot. Yet nobody on this forum achieved anything even remotely similar to those people (in the gaming industry, of course).
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Ugh, can you imagine if someone drug him (kicking and screaming) into this environment for a QA session?
Spend a lot of time hangng out with developers in the 80s? That's what the cons were for. (We can't hold our booze.)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yes, of course, just dimly-remembered yammer yammer threads from this very site. Does NCSoft count?
Yet nobody on this forum achieved anything even remotely similar to those people (in the gaming industry, of course).
You're stuck on that one, we're required to out-achieve him in order to form an opinion contrary to and less extreme than hero worship?
Joey: I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense. [Kareem's getting mad]
Uh oh. Don't think the Lakers will pay me to try.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Original UO had its charms, and in general I support and want sandbox play.
However there seems to have been an unholy association formed between sandbox and FFA PVP with full/loot. What happened in old UO - and what led to Trammel - was the impact this had on the overall player base and game atmosphere. While arguably everyone can enjoy FFA full loot in some circumstance, having it 24/7 was too much for most people. It also brought out the worst in people, in terms of the taunting and hate /tells. If was a griefers paradise.
Yes yes yes, people will argue "you just need to toughen up! or "its only a game!" But the reality of the matter is that if you have FFA full loot PVP, you are basically putting the direction of your game in the hands of a sub-set of players who flourish in that environment. Unlike crafting or questing, in PVP the players are imposing on each other, in essence taking control of the game experience of other players by killing and looting them. A small subset can have a much larger impact and what you end up with is a race to the bottom as the nastiest part of the player base imposes its will on the others.
"But we want good PVP!" you say. Well, what really happens in FFA full loot is far from that. People in fact want: a) loot; b) not to be looted. So PVP tends towards ganking, e.g. large groups killing smaller or a well-equipped veteran character preying on newer players who are unable to effectively defend themselves. On the group scale, server dynamics tend towards zergs, an unhealthy development for small guilds and individual style players. You also encourage exploits, since the stakes are higher (I can lose my stuff, hence I will use that spin move exploit that insta-restores my health due to an unfixed bug).
In full loot FFA PVP games, the server forums also turn into cess pools dominated by the constant trash talk of a few players or guilds.
Full loot FFA PVP magnifies any flaws in a PVP system. Because the stakes are higher, people rush to play the same cookie-cutter overpowered template. Then, if that is balanced by the developers, they rush to the next one. Naked mages, tank mages, etc. You end up with ninety percent of the forums being dominated by arguments and complaints about the PVP system. Developers end up having to devote a huge and disproportionate amount of time to the PVP system since it has such impact on the rest of the game, and this is to the detriment of working on other parts of the game world systems.
Finally, people need to remember that the mentality of the "hard core" PVPer is that "if I can kill something then I MUST kill something!" Aside from the "red is dead" mentality which basically crushes any meaningful in-game interactions besides swinging a sword at someone's head, you have an impact on the other parts of the environment. For example, in old UO Raph Koster created this vibrant ecosystem model of different animals. It immediately collapsed as players fanned out from town killing anything that moved, whether they needed the hides and meat or not.
So while I agree in principle with how great FFA PVP with full loot can be, lets get real about its track record. It has failed utterly with a mass audience. Most people do NOT want to be coming back with their hard-earned treasure from a lengthy dungeon crawl only to be jumped and despoiled on the road by pWnU and his bunch of 15-year old buddies, who accompany their one-sided victory with profane hate tells. Most people do NOT want to have to join a zerg guild just to ensure they can survive when they leave town. Most people do NOT want to have their entire play experience subject to the whims of the PVP system.
So while I have sympathy for those who enjoy FFA full loot PVP, the fact of the matter is that we have seen how problematic that is. Some games have done well with versions of it, e.g. EVE Online. But in its purest form, original UO, it was turning into a disaster and to avoid that they invented Trammel.
In the final analysis, the full loot FFA PVP community is its own worst enemy. No game world population can flourish when all its direction is placed in the hands of a subset of players who make the rules for everyone else. Crafter, explorer, socializer - everyone must bend the knee to ikEELj00 and his friends. Or even worse, be forced to become them just to play the game.
This is one of the most well written posts on that topic I've read in ages - thank you, friend, for expressing what I feel about the confusion between "sandbox MMORPG" and "FFA PvP" in such a nice, clear, and well written way.
PvP is the highest way for a player to affect another player - and that's the obvious reason why it must be controlled and restricted so it doesn't take over the whole game.
I'm not sure your post fits perfectly in this thread, but I for sure will keep it bookmarked for quotation in future topics about this specific problem.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
For me FFA fill loot PVP totally makes the game for me.. the amonut of fun it brings into the game knowing you could loose everything you have.. well nothing comes close to it..
Sure its not for everyone but lots of people do enjoy it... check out Dayz for instance..
Maybe games like Darkfall didnt do too well was because of the amount of time it took to develop your character and because of the full loot.. but again that was somthing i really enjoyed but can also see why a lot of people hated it..
Thanks for your kind words. I have come to this position through some evolution based on hard experience.
Many "hard core" PVPers who want full loot FFA PVP complain that opponents are a bunch of "care bears" who simply are timorous souls unable to hack it. Well, I have years of FFA full loot PVP under my belt (or modified full loot, e.g. Shadowbane). So I have walked the walk.
Yes, it can be exhilarating. But it has to be balanced with the entire game population in mind. You are making a game experience for all kinds of people, not just the virtual predators. It should not all be just about them and their fun. It should be about everyone's fun. You cannot build that shared journey if you place your game's destiny solely in the hands of the "I keel j00" crowd.
I don't think you read my post all the way...
He did alot for RPGs and MMORPGs. But that's all looonngg ago in the past now. 1980s, 1990s. His last unquestioned success is UO, which is a late 90s game.
It is now Two Thousand freaking Twelve. Again, his last prolific project was TR, and that died within a year of going live, and its troubled development is well known. He hasn't touched RPGs or MMORPGs since. The last couple things I really know of significance RG did was sheisting millions out of NCSoft and those crazy trips to space. Not RPG or MMORPG development. But sheisting money and space flights. Think about that.
Richard Garriott did alot. LONG AGO. And hasn't done anything in any positive light for RPGs or MMORPGs in general. He is, and I'm going to say it... a has-been.
The last time Richard Garriott did anything positive for RPGs or MMORPGs in general? Bill Clinton was still President of the US, James Cameron's Titanic came out recently at the time, and freakin' Britney Spears was a new act. That is a long time ago.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Albert Einstein theory was a long time ago too...
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
Ok i feel i need to clarify my Tablua Rasa jibe... RG have a lot of ideas... most pretty good on paper... Thing is though that outside of the off-line RPG scene his ideas tend to get away from him and end up rather messy. Like Tabula Rasa (it has a very interesting development) now it was not all his fault with that game.. A lot went worng.
Also for the peopel that talk about Ultima Online 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online_2
... .. . Again be vary of what you wish for.
This have been a good conversation
And past debacle don't disappear magically with time either.
No one will hire him after the horrible Tabula Rasa fiasco. It shows that having some success in the 90s does not mean that he knows how to develop a modern game in 2010.
Will you hire a heart surgeon whose last successful surgery is in the 1990s? I wouldn't.
You guys do realize Tabula Rasa didn't fail because "it failed" but rather some disagreement with NCSoft and Richard's "Options" in the company. They didn't want him to walk away with a lot of money in his option and by killing his game they were sure they had no value so they won't owe him anything.
I didn't like the game though and I'm not a fan of the designer. But truth needs to be said.
Um ... this is a man who took a vacation in space. I don't think companies hire him so much as he hires them.
Einstein came up with the Theory of Relativity before the age of 30, after that, nothing approaching that for the remainer of his life..
Yeah, seem like this is a curse in the MMO space, some of the "big names", Koster, Garriot, and others, did their best work right out of the gate, and since then, a lot of not much.
Seems like pure creativity and risk taking was a casualty of success in this industry...
Which says a lot about his work ethics and motivation. And it does not matter what excuse you find for him. He has NO track record since the 1990s and technologies have changed a great deal then.
And his PR praise was taken over by other people (different in the actual physics camp, respect without hero-worship), and kept rolling long after his death.
Accidentally, a pretty good analogy.
Wonder how Koster and Garriot feel about these fans who will voluntarily leap to their defense, necessary or not.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't defend people because I'm a fan, but because I don't like seeing hate go unchallenged.
Neither do I. But are the white knights sometimes a wee too aggressive and eager in defense??
This is the same behavior that people despise so much from fanboys.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I can understand a little frustration with posts like the OP's assumption that he has a magic wand that can create a gamer's personal heavan on demand. But I think you've over-reached a little by calling into question his work ethic. When I look at his interviews, the amount of thinking he's doing about where the industry is going and where he is focusing his attention, I may not agree with everything he says but I have very, very hard time suggesting that there is stightest dent in his motivation.
I suspect for all sides, it's sometimes a bit tricky to find the right volume between offering a flimsy straw man argument and burning the opposition to the ground.