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Why do so many people think that Sandbox MMORPGs are all FFA PvP? They're not.
Larsa
Member Posts: 990
Since long I found it strange that so many people think that Sandbox MMORPGs are all about FFA PvP (and with full loot!).
They're not. There are plenty of Sandbox MMORPGs around without PvP, or with only consensual PvP or with PvP only in certain parts of the game world or on certain servers. I'd even go as far as to say that your run-of-the-mill themepark game has probably more PvP than most sandboxes these days, can't remember the last themepark MMO that released without PvP, did we even have a single one?
In another thread (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/355450/page/1#5094263) this discussion came up again and since it's rather off-topic in that thread I thought to make a new one to try to get an answer on a simple question:
Why do so many people think that all Sandbox MMORPGs are FFA PvP gankfests?
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Comments
They is unedumacated?
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Mostly because one early sandbox (UO) mistakenly included it in the initial design (which they later rectified) and since then people think somehow its a core defining feature of a sandbox.
It's not, it never was, but you won't convince some folks.
Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy games with looting like EVE where controls are put in place to give folks an even chance of mitigating the consequences.
But every sandbox doesn't have to contain such mechanics, and as pointed out, some don't.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One reason might be the posts from many of those who support sandbox games, on various themepark MMO forums, how they hate them because "they are not sandbox" and "not have open PVP". Thus people tend to put the two together, because they regularly appear together when Sandbox / Open PVP is discussed in various MMOs.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I think it's because some people around here want a free for all, full loot PVP sandbox, but usually shorten that to simply saying that they want a sandbox.
I just think those people must have gotten PK'd once, and are still traumatized by the experience.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
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It is not.
I like it in Darkfall, but definetly I can live without.
A sandbox can offer so much more than FFA PVP (Es. SWG)
I think an ideal set up for a sandbox would be a few kingdoms have lawful zones with some small PvP zones (Like alley ways in big towns and forests known to be the home of "bandits") as well as some large areas that are up for grabs to be conquered.
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Probably because according to the games found here
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518/List-of-Sandbox-MMORPGs-Updated-June-16-2012.html
and the games found here
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/335502/Most-Complete-List-of-Sandbox-MMOs.html
There are a significant number that are either full open pvp, or have very limited safe zones.
There are still many that have limited pvp, however there are very very very few that have no or almost no PVP.
So no it is not necessary at all for a sandbox to have open pvp, or full loot, however many do have them. This does two things: 1. It perpetuates the myth that sandbox has full pvp and/or 2. It reinforces the notion that most/many sandbox has it which turns people off sandbox.
I don't know the answer to your question, except possibly to say that people making up their minds without getting informed of the facts first is neither new nor exclusive to your topic. That said, I have a question, since I don't know the answer. What are those sandbox MMO's that don't force PvP on people?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
Ryzom, you chose which faction you wanted and after gathing enough fame, are able to toggle your PvP flag if you want to.
SWG was similar if I recall right, you had to visit an NPC to toggle a PvP flag. I think it disabled if you died.
Istaria flat out doesn't have any pvp except an arena or something.
I dont think that they all are, thats just the best feature that can be put into sandbox's In my opinion.
Played-Everything
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AC is the best sandbox game I have played and it has a separate server for pvp.
From the games I know anything about (or I think I know anything about, hehe):
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
It's not exclusive to Sandbox.
There's a certain contingent of gamers who will try to shoe-horn FFA PvP into anything, in hopes that it'll "stick" and they'll get what they want.
How many of these, or some variation on them, you've seen across a variety of different game forums...
"A MMO with PvP must have FFA PvP ("with full looting" often goes along with it) or it's not real PvP!
"Real MMOs require FFA PvP"
"PvP can't be competitive unless it's FFA"
"You're a carebear if you don't want FFA PvP"
"You're not hardcore if you don't want FFA PvP"
"The only point to playing a MMO is competition, which means the game must have FFA PvP".
And so on...
So, it's not that there's really any objective reason of why sandbox MMOs "must have FFA PvP". It's just that they want to run around attacking who ever, where ever, without consequence. The idea of sandbox MMOs allowing the freedom to do what you want is just an "in" for them to make that argument. They don't need a reason to want it. They just want it.
Open PvP isn't FFAPvP either, it just means WORLD PvP, it could be flagged ffs.
Everyone pull out your MMO thesaurus, it's fucking pop-quiz time.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
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Eve online does have high security space, but any player may attack any other player in high security space. such behavior is discouraged by game mechanics as the Eve police show up and destroy the attacking player's ship. but there are no "safe areas" as far as i know in eve. players even band together to suicide bomb juicy looking targets even in the highest security space. the only protection against this is not being a good target, knowing when you're being set up, or having a counter-measure (a strong tank/warp stabilizers or any other counter).
which brings up the point -- as evidenced by eve, even FFA pvp shouldn't be assumed to be the same thing across every game. systems are often more complex than the one-dimensional labels we would like to attach to them. much like the term "sandbox" it could be ascribed many foolish attributes by any number of people.
Because the most well known sand box games ARE full loot open PVP.
Lets look at EvE and UO, two games that are typically looked at as the god fathers of Sandbox games...
BOTH have full loot, BOTH have open PVP.
A major element to sandbox games is the ability to make your own adventure, and your own story, part of that would be hosilities between players. Including open PVP and full loot, do they HAVE to have these featuers? Probably not, are they typical flavors to find in your Sandbox sammich? Yes, very much so.
idk .. im all for ffapvp actually .. but it would require a system of penalties to be put in place that would probably implode the world if it was implemented / released
One thing about ffapvp that should be standard is if you are going to have ffapvp there should be a very restrictive encumbrance system in place. this way it would be unlikely that a player would loot more than 1 thing from you.
and no I dont think every game should be ffapvp nor do I think a sandbox has to be ffapvp .. just that I would have interest in a ffapvp, but it would have to have way better systems then all current mmos combined for me to play it.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
It's only that way because of the constant tension between both camps over the PvP issue at hand.
Other games like SWG don't get talked about as much, unless it's going over how shitty the NGE was - see a trend?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
yes but SWG actually had factions, while not all Sandbox games had factions. Especially since they were very well established factions, empire / republic.
I still do remember griefers.
You could only get griefed if you decided to flag up or become a jedi - fair trade.
~My point, though, was that FFAPvP is associated with sandbox games ONLY because of the neverending argument over it. There are tons of games that don't do it that way, but because the argument hasn't sucked those in, they escape the radar. Everyone sees "sandbox" as "griefer-play" because people won't fucking shutup about a 15-year old argument about PvP rulesets.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Because those same people have no idea what a sandbox is. Anyway, I say just add Guild vs Guild warfare, if you are warred with eachother (think UO) then you can loot eachother. If you are just PvE or in a guild that happens to not be at war with anyone...then you're fine.
Its because most, if not all, the notable sandbox titles have or have had it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The flip side of that is that it comprises 20% or less of the gameplay in the successful sandbox-style games that do have it.
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