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The Importance of Permanence
maplestone
Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
I was recently struck by a comment in another thread that players should, when they reach the "end" of an MMO, simply move on to another game. "Follow the fun" is normally a rather straight-forward and obvious suggestion (I may have even tossed it out myself once or twice), but this time I had a strong visceral reaction to the idea - it seemed horribly, horribly wrong as a suggestion for an MMO. Although I don't always come out and say it, in the back of my mind, I feel that MMOs should aspire the hold their players for a lifetime, that they should aspire to still be online a hundred years from now, although they might not bare much resemblence to their 1.0 state.
I am not still playing the first MMO I ever played. Or the second. But the first game I ever played is still online, still running and in the back of my mind, I keep expecting that someday I'll revisit it and look for old footprints of the past. And even as I wander, I still keep expecting that I will find a game that I will play for the rest of my life. You see, to me, what really differentiates an MMO from an ordinary video game is not massively, it's not even the multiplayer - it's the permanence. It's the database I care about in the end, that sense that my gameplay is a part of contributing data to something that will last forever.
In terms of moment-to-moment fun, suitability to my playstyle interests or even graphics quality, there are probably better games out there than the ones I'm currently playing. But what these new ambitious games pouring out often lack is that sense that their world is sustainable - that the game will still be online and actively evolving in a year, in five years, in ten years.
So ... Is the sense of permanence an important consideration in your choice of MMOs? Or am I just being a little eccentric?
Comments
I don't think you're being eccentric. I think permanence should be a goal of any MMORPG developer, but I'm not sure how many people actually want just one game, for the foreseeable future. I don't know how many people don't want that either to be honest.
My preference is to play a game while it's fun, but to also be on the lookout for something new. If I was still playing WoW, I would have never played HalfLife2 or Portal. I would never have played Minecraft and I wouldn't now be playing The Walking Dead. It would be such a waste to just play one game, forever. I just don't have time to play two or three games with a high time commitment at the same time.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I still want to play single mmorpg for long peroid of time.
I don't take pleasure of playing one mmorpg now and then another next month or few mmorpg's at same time. I tried, just to check out what's the appeal since many people do, but I don't see appeal of that.
My first mmorpg - UO - was only mmorpg in whole my history of playing mmorpg's I kept coming back to once I stopped sub first time.
If I combine all peroids I played UO - that might be like 2,5 years of playing I think. My longest mmorpg.
Thing is current market does not really offer that much in this regard.
Mmorpg's are more conveniant, fast and streamlined - and they have "end".
Other thing which is bad - is F2P / freemium transitions of mmropg's.
Commiting long-months or 1+ year and then having cash shop with many of things I got because of my dedication - seriously suck ass.
That is even worse cause all server go f2p / freemium and there is no few no-cash shop P2P left for people who would like to play in no-CS envirment.
So bummer kinda.
Agreed that permanence, virtual worlds and long-term were things that brought me to mmorpg's in first place.
Whacking monsters with someone else or cracking their heads was not prime reason. - besides there are and there were non-mmo games that allowed that without dedication need and costs that mmorpg part bring with itself.
I am a bad "gamer." I don't have the desire to buy everything ever put out by every company. I am also cheap. I want my $60 to last as long as I can make it last. Yes, I have no problems paying the $15 a month to play
It's a lot cheaper than buying 1-3 games per month.
I played EQ from 2001-2006. In that time of permanence, I also played NWN, Morrowind, Rail Empires: Iron Dragon, and quite a few other games. (Yea, I "rediscovered" some of those games
) I did not spend 24/7 in EverQuest. Sometimes, I came close, though 
What I see lacking in today's MMOs is the feeling of "I'll be here for awhile, enjoying myself." Most of them seem to be built to be a shot in the pan. People are considered veterans of a game if they pay that first sub fee after the first free month
I'd like to see a MMORPG built from the ground up to be long lasting. Something the devs and publishers put time, thought, and effort into. I'd like to open the doors of a new MMORPG and think, "Yea. I am home."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That makes zero sense.
The only kind of games that a subscription MMO would keep others from playing is *other* subscription MMOs. I don't know many people that didn't have time for other games fit around their MMO schedule, and the ones that *only* played WoW were total freaks, because they had all the time in the world ot play other games - they just didn't, because they were complete lunatics.
@Maplestone
You need to replace the word 'forever' for 'years'. No game is gonna last that long, but by all means, they should last us years at a time like they used to.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I don't really want to give up the word "forever". I don't really agree that everything ends. Sometimes they just evolve a little.
Many of the IPs that current games are tapping into have been growing for 25 or 50 years, many tap into legends that are thousands of years old. What I'm suggesting is that the databases, the history that games are now accumulating as they play out, *are* the future IP of the genre. Not the lore that is being written by the developers, but the history and achievements that are being accumulated in play.
One of the main points of an MMO, the point that keeps people playing beyond the content, is community. IMO recent MMO's have chucked the idea of community as a part of their game. Again, IMO this mean s to me most recent MMO's barely deserve the title of 'MMO'.
For many debatable reasons (money) MMO makers have decided to go with making MMO's essentially the same as any other video game, as opposed to the world simulators they wer originally intended to be. And of course like most any other video game, you play for a few weeks or months and then move on.
I've been playing MMOs since Everquest release. I played EQ for 5ish years, and WoW for about the same, with stints in DAOC, CoH and others. At this point in my life, I will tend to avoid any MMO with a significant "lock in". I'm looking to play for 2-3 months max, then move on.
I'm sort of burnt out on "gaming with purpose". I play whatever sounds fun at the time, and between PC, xBox, PS3 and iPad there are more than enough choices to stay entertained. Being shackled to one game is the last thing I want.
YMMV, of course. I don't judge people who want enduring gaming experiences, since I used to be one of those people.
Do I really care if a music band I enjoyed before is no longer together?
Not really, there are other musicians out there.
Do I really care if a movie/tv show ends?
Not really.
Why should MMOs be different?
I'll play what I find fun with my friends and move on.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I'm probably not their ideal demographic. Modern MMOs are still designed as if you'll be playing them for years, in 3 months I typically will only see a fraction of the content. Publishers are still hoping to entice long-term players, but MMOs are being rolled out so frequently that the playerbase is continually fractured.
Some developer / publisher combinations go to great effort to achieve longevity. Content patches and bug fixes are common. They actively support their communities and keep things moving. I respect this and would do what I can to help.
On the other side, some dev / pub combos release a game and let it rot. Nothing is done to keep the game alive and it dies a slow painful death. By their actions, the people who run the game are telling me that my satisfaction is not important. I don't see any reason for customer loyalty to such a game.
So for the OP, yes. Longevity is a factor for me in determining what I play (and what I do not).
But you are a demographic and if you're spending money, games want to be your friend. I can't blame the industry for taking the money that's on the table. Even my dream game wouldn't be solely for lifers - it's important to have visitors passing through.
But let me ask you a related question:
What if I made you an MMO (similar to any of the ones coming out this year, something you'll probably only play for a couple of months) that would allow you import your achievements from other games as part of the cosmetic touches of your character? Say for example that I managed to get a copy of the old character/account database from various defunct MMOs and simply added to my game a small list of achievements and a few decorative graphics you could claim when you recreated your favourite old character in this new game? Would that sort of sentimental perk be something you enjoyed seeing?
I would love that. My own little "Hall of Tribute", as it were. And to be honest, although I might only play daily for a few months, I'd probably keep coming back periodically to check up on my new developments.
Its certainly an interesting idea OP. As a long time MMO player, I think the previous poster relating to community has something there.
From community comes a meaningful place in a virtual world. Most games have pretty "volatile" communities anymore. In addition, themeparks get their names for a reason. They are "rides". Sooner or later you either gotta get off the ride, or vomit. Both of which happen in these forums often
As more people come to play MMO's, community has changed quite a bit and the meaning of the player's existence within a virtual world right along with it. From this perspective, growth of an industry is not necessarily flattering for those who have been there awhile.
Another point I wanted to bring up: online video games are still young, relatively speaking. We don't really have adequate reference for just how long "permanent" can mean. UO might be the closest for an argument such as this. If we use this as a reference, how many new gamers will even load up UO to try it? Visitors are much less common in aging games. As opposed to many new games, where maybe even half the population could be visitors (by definition) from launch day. Ebb and flow of players from one game to the next seems to be the trend anymore.
I think the closest thing to permanent you might get anymore is your own fond memories of X amont of time you spend in any one game. Even then, permanence stems from little more than an illusion.
Sure that is a valid defense, generically, but it misses the point, MMO's by design (originally at least) were supposed to be something you found fun with your friends for a long period of time. Becuse they were world simulators with communities to build that provided fun beyond mere content. So the point is, if they are designed to appeal to a subscriber for a signficant amount of time, and they're not, then something is wrong. Either they are failing at their goal, or they've changed their goal with their respect towards their expectation of what the player is looking for, without actually coming out and saying it.
Your comment doesn't really stand up to that. If the first couple of bites of a piece of pizza tasted great but the taste turned to crap before you got to the end of the slice would you shrug it off and say "Well, I enjoyed the first few bites. I'll try another slice."?
As a lifelong Doctor Who fan, I'm having trouble relating to you on this one
As a Lost fan, I can say the same thing - but for a completely different reason...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Not sure about permanence, but definitely longevity is something I look for in MMOs...
There seems to be a split in opinion from gamers. Group A is quite happy to play the game through, maybe follow the story or hit cap, amass shiny things etc for a while but generally not years as they "follow" said "fun", and then quit when it feels natural to do so.
Group B requires things to do beyond such things. Perhaps territory wars, or role playing or in depth crafting. Something to keep them playing, something to invest in. Many of these variables are interchangeable, raiding par example, however I'd argue its pretty easy to generalise about what style of content promotes what kind of gamer.
The crux, to me, appears to me to be what most people describe as endgame, but as others have called on this site, I think metagame is a far better term as having stuff thats only available or worth doing at the end of a game is nonsensical.
What gives you that sense of permanence OP? Is it anything qualifiable?
(PS if you notice any of group A loitering then please euthanise at all costs....or at least tell them to **** off and player single play games which will sate their vapid souless desires far better than MMOs)
Games change depending on the market.
Some game designs work in the market and some don't.
I treat MMO like I treat any other sub based service.
I used to have cable, now I don't.
Do I feel 'robbed' since I can't access the contents now? No I don't.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Whoa, whoa. There are still people playing SWTOR, a year later. There are still people playing Everquest 1, 13 years later. There are still people playing Anarchy Online, as bad as the graphics are. There are still people playing UO, for goodness sake. By what criteria are you saying these games have failed in their design?
Permance is fun but the problem is that any game actually trying to bring it have to be massive and making a massive world is a lot more expensive now than 15 years ago.
So it is a good feature but most games today cant afford to add it.
I'm looking for that mmo home myself, but i don't see the problem with just playing for a few months and leave.
For example, i'm waiting for TSW and GW2, but i know that after a few months, i'll probably be done with all the pve content and be bored of pvp since there' doesn't seem to be longevity in them, but, (after price drops
), i'll get a good deal. What's so bad about just buying, playing abit and going away? If the game updates, it's a bonus for me to go back.
Now, what annoys teh hell out of me is that mmorpgs with mechanics to provide permanece, usually sandboxes, are so small in numbers compared to the mainstream titles, and tend to lack the quality because they're indie. AA and Repop are in the distance,a nd maybe EQ3 and WOD, but compared to Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TESO,a nd god knows how many others on the way, it's just small.
A. Clearly Evertquest and UO are older MMO's that built communities. They are the examples that prove the rule.
B. That SOME people still play SWTOR doesn't mean people in general are still playing. In fact given the drop in subs and incredibly huge server merges indicates a whole lot of people played for a bit and moved on.
C. A year is too short a time period to look at in the lifecycle of an MMO to determine if people are sticking around.
Again it is a matter expectation and intent. That you cancelled cable is in indictment of cable. You think it's not worth your money.
To make your TV show analogy work, its not that you get upset if the show ends, its if you walk away from the show while it's still running. Clearly the intent of the show's producers is that having started watching the show, you should want to keep watching the show. If you stop watching the show while it's still running, then the producers have failed to some extent. If an MMO is made with the intent that you pay and play for a significant amoint of time, and you don't, then the game has failed to some extent. That is the point.
Did people really play one MMO for a long period of time?
Other than the EQ/UO days where there were only 2, I don't think so.
The 'sub number king' WoW only has a 30% retention rate (only 30% of players who try WoW get above level 10 - Blizz CEO).
MMOs were never a 'long term' thing for the majority of people. They play and once they had their fill, they move on.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Yeah, they really did. But again whether they did or not is not the point, the point is that is the expectation, especially in a sub based game is exactly that: people should play for a long time. If they don't something is wrong.