The levelling inflection point -- Mid Levels should take the longest

centkin

One thing that has always kind of gotten to me is that the longest levels (often by far) are the levels right before the endgame.  By the time you reach level 55 in a level 60 game, really the main thing most people are thinking of is getting to that end and actually many people will actively avoid upgrades and buy things they can use at the end rather than wasting capital on something that would be useful now but outmoded later.

At the same time the earlier levels and content tend to go by really fast.  This includes the mid levels where people might be avoiding the dungeons and other content because they would not be using those items for very long.

Levelling is kind of backwards.

Yes I can see having the early levels be faster than the middle levels, but the last few levels should also be relatively fast because people are mainly targetted at the endgame.  I mean how many people really and truly enjoyed the level before the cap more than the other levels?  For most it is the most tedious level and others might be the only level they try to blitz through.

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A much better model would be something like this...

Instead of having say level 20 take 1 hour, level 30 2 hours, level 40 4 hours, level 50 7 hours, and level 59 10 hours....

Have the longest level be level 45 at say that 10 hours with level 50 being 6 hours and level 59 being only 2.

Cephus404

Sounds good, except it shouldn't be hours, it should be  days or weeks or months.  It should literally take years to get a character to max level.  There should be very, very few of them in a game and end-game content should be very little or non-existent.

Eronakis

That's because gameplay has changed from old mmo's till now. And the new players has changed as well. Everyone one is rushing to end game because that is where the majority of the content is. In today's mmo's its all about "me me me me me". With that instant gratification they only care about gear that can be reached at end game. The difference is that the mmorpg at birth was about playing with a large scale of players at the same time while enjoying the journey to end game. That's the difference between most old school mmo players versus new school ones persay. Instant gratification has taken over versus enjoyment of getting to the end.

 

There are other reasons why leveling duration is longer near end game. One is that usually the first 10-20 levels are a trial mode for players to get used to gameplay. Another is that game designers believe that a longer duration towards end game content is a "challenge".  I think a decent way to combat your scenario would simply to add more challenge to the game. More risk versus reward. Add an incentive to explore or go to other dungeons or other content areas instead of achievements. Classes are being designed towards gear dependency which I don't really agree with anyways.

centkin

Actually even back in the old old days of MMOs where it was as you said more about the journey, I can tell you that the last couple of levels were still "looking at the endgame and wondering why it is taking so long" levels.  The only games that were not really like that were games like Asheron's Call with no real ending level that anyone would ever hit.  126 was a milestone in Asheron's Call but it was very very far from being maxxed out and had no significance except in exp chains. 

I just think the last few levels should be quick -- Content tending more towards the middle and the end than the near end.

Gaia_Hunter

Or maybe they could start add a difficulty curve and interesting leveling content/mechanics instead of the difficulty being just a gear check.

Maybe, just maybe then the game would be fun and no one would care about leveling.

Recently in a certain game I just kept being surprised whenever my character leveled.

Eronakis

Originally posted by centkin

Actually even back in the old old days of MMOs where it was as you said more about the journey, I can tell you that the last couple of levels were still "looking at the endgame and wondering why it is taking so long" levels.  The only games that were not really like that were games like Asheron's Call with no real ending level that anyone would ever hit.  126 was a milestone in Asheron's Call but it was very very far from being maxxed out and had no significance except in exp chains. 

I just think the last few levels should be quick -- Content tending more towards the middle and the end than the near end.

I see so you're looking at it like a climax or an apex of a hill. The player starts at the bottom of the hill and then mid level of the level cap is the apex of the hill and then end game content will be at the bottom on the other side

Say if the last 5 levels where easy to get too, then the game get's challenging again, what is there to justify that? Also, if you allow the players to have the last 5 levels to not take long, they will want more like that or even the whole game.

What you present isn't a bad idea, but I am not sure how it can be justified based on current game design elements.

centkin

In essence the content for 54-59 out of a level 60 game is the least valuable content of the game.  You are taking content that could be replayable and making it not replayable because nobody is going to hunt 57th level equipment at 60th level.  At the same time the players are just trying to put the last of the levelling out of its misery for endgame.  Most people do not think of such until the home stretch.  Before that they enjoy themselves a lot more.  I mean gaining level 46 is a good thing but you dont worry so much that that item you just got is a waste.  It is a means to the further ends.  That uber level 58 item is going to be outclassed at 60. 

Note that this also works for expansions...  If you are adding 10 levels to a level 60 game, the hardest level should be the earliest level and the easiest level the last one.  This allows the old equipment and content to not be outmoded too very rapidly and preserves the maximum amount of content for the timeframe people will be at the longest.  It also preserves content when people go through the game later on because normally what happens is people completely skip the raids from the earlier content because the items are so very rapidly replaced in the new expansion.  If the levelling were reversed then there would be a reason to still do such content even when the content is 3 expansions old. 

Volkon

     Aside from the early levels being quick, why shouldn't it take just as long to level from, say, 20 - 30 as it does from 69 - 70? There's too much emphasis on levelling, and a huge negative is that you erect walls behind you as you level, rendering content obsolete that once was challenging and fun. Instead, a GW2 approach makes much more sense... levels are adjusted down to earlier content enough that you'll always have a challenge wherever you go, which prevents entire areas of the game from being obsoleted. When you take away the "level = superior power" thing you can flatten the levelling curve and focus on fun content across the entire game.

Darkmoth

Originally posted by Volkon

     Aside from the early levels being quick, why shouldn't it take just as long to level from, say, 20 - 30 as it does from 69 - 70? There's too much emphasis on levelling, and a huge negative is that you erect walls behind you as you level, rendering content obsolete that once was challenging and fun. Instead, a GW2 approach makes much more sense... levels are adjusted down to earlier content enough that you'll always have a challenge wherever you go, which prevents entire areas of the game from being obsoleted. When you take away the "level = superior power" thing you can flatten the levelling curve and focus on fun content across the entire game.

The problem with that mechanic is that it's still old content. I'm generally glad to move on to a new zone, that's part of the character progression at the heart of RPGs (not necessarily MMOs). The other issue is that you're losing the hard-won abilities that your higher level character fought for.

City of Heroes had pretty much the same thing with the Exemplar system, and it never seemed to be that popular, except to help friends out.

I do agree though that the last few levels before cap tend to be something you rush through - your character changes relatively little, and so the fun of new abilities and gear over time is at a minimum.

Irus

Originally posted by Cephus404

Sounds good, except it shouldn't be hours, it should be  days or weeks or months.  It should literally take years to get a character to max level.  There should be very, very few of them in a game and end-game content should be very little or non-existent.

This.

Kaneth

Originally posted by Darkmoth

Originally posted by Volkon

     Aside from the early levels being quick, why shouldn't it take just as long to level from, say, 20 - 30 as it does from 69 - 70? There's too much emphasis on levelling, and a huge negative is that you erect walls behind you as you level, rendering content obsolete that once was challenging and fun. Instead, a GW2 approach makes much more sense... levels are adjusted down to earlier content enough that you'll always have a challenge wherever you go, which prevents entire areas of the game from being obsoleted. When you take away the "level = superior power" thing you can flatten the levelling curve and focus on fun content across the entire game.

The problem with that mechanic is that it's still old content. I'm generally glad to move on to a new zone, that's part of the character progression at the heart of RPGs (not necessarily MMOs). The other issue is that you're losing the hard-won abilities that your higher level character fought for.

City of Heroes had pretty much the same thing with the Exemplar system, and it never seemed to be that popular, except to help friends out.

I do agree though that the last few levels before cap tend to be something you rush through - your character changes relatively little, and so the fun of new abilities and gear over time is at a minimum.

Let's look at it from a WoW perspective. There's a number of zones within a specific level range, and each zone lasts roughly 5 levels in the post-cata era. So you're effectively missing out on a lot of additional content, and you're not really going to go back because it's not rewarding. Hell, take a look at the 1-84 zones in WoW....ghost town, that's a ton of wasted space.

In the GW2 model, with the exception of maybe the first 5 levels (those seemed to go by really quick), the leveling curve is flat. Which means 5-6 will take you as long as 79-80. The difference is that instead of outleveling previous zones, you could go and visit each one you wanted to, regardless of your level, and still find some rewarding content because you are de-leveled to the zone you're in. If it's content you've never done, it's not old content (for you). You are always being rewarded appropriately for your efforts.

The GW2 model has more freedom in the effect that once you reach certain levels, you can go wherever the hell you want to keep leveling, as long as the zone isn't a higher level than you. You can move onto a new zone, or stay where you want, or go back and visit another starting zone.

Sure, we haven't really seen how well it works out, but in theory, the system is miles ahead of the competition.

Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Darkmoth

Originally posted by Volkon

     Aside from the early levels being quick, why shouldn't it take just as long to level from, say, 20 - 30 as it does from 69 - 70? There's too much emphasis on levelling, and a huge negative is that you erect walls behind you as you level, rendering content obsolete that once was challenging and fun. Instead, a GW2 approach makes much more sense... levels are adjusted down to earlier content enough that you'll always have a challenge wherever you go, which prevents entire areas of the game from being obsoleted. When you take away the "level = superior power" thing you can flatten the levelling curve and focus on fun content across the entire game.

The problem with that mechanic is that it's still old content. I'm generally glad to move on to a new zone, that's part of the character progression at the heart of RPGs (not necessarily MMOs). The other issue is that you're losing the hard-won abilities that your higher level character fought for.

City of Heroes had pretty much the same thing with the Exemplar system, and it never seemed to be that popular, except to help friends out.

I do agree though that the last few levels before cap tend to be something you rush through - your character changes relatively little, and so the fun of new abilities and gear over time is at a minimum.

Let's look at it from a WoW perspective. There's a number of zones within a specific level range, and each zone lasts roughly 5 levels in the post-cata era. So you're effectively missing out on a lot of additional content, and you're not really going to go back because it's not rewarding. Hell, take a look at the 1-84 zones in WoW....ghost town, that's a ton of wasted space.

In the GW2 model, with the exception of maybe the first 5 levels (those seemed to go by really quick), the leveling curve is flat. Which means 5-6 will take you as long as 79-80. The difference is that instead of outleveling previous zones, you could go and visit each one you wanted to, regardless of your level, and still find some rewarding content because you are de-leveled to the zone you're in. If it's content you've never done, it's not old content (for you). You are always being rewarded appropriately for your efforts.

The GW2 model has more freedom in the effect that once you reach certain levels, you can go wherever the hell you want to keep leveling, as long as the zone isn't a higher level than you. You can move onto a new zone, or stay where you want, or go back and visit another starting zone.

Sure, we haven't really seen how well it works out, but in theory, the system is miles ahead of the competition.

Just to add that a deleveld character will still be more powerful than a character level appropriate to the zone (deleveled to 1-3 level higer than zone, more utility skills options and slots available, traits, more gear options/effects), just not absurdly so, fot those worried about not becoming more powerful.

kb4blu

Its been a while but I think the original EQ did that with the "Hell" levels.  It was around level 33 or so.  Things really slowed down.

But most players hated it so EQ got rid of it.

I however thought it was a good idea even then.

 

Darkmoth

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Darkmoth

Originally posted by Volkon

     Aside from the early levels being quick, why shouldn't it take just as long to level from, say, 20 - 30 as it does from 69 - 70? There's too much emphasis on levelling, and a huge negative is that you erect walls behind you as you level, rendering content obsolete that once was challenging and fun. Instead, a GW2 approach makes much more sense... levels are adjusted down to earlier content enough that you'll always have a challenge wherever you go, which prevents entire areas of the game from being obsoleted. When you take away the "level = superior power" thing you can flatten the levelling curve and focus on fun content across the entire game.

The problem with that mechanic is that it's still old content. I'm generally glad to move on to a new zone, that's part of the character progression at the heart of RPGs (not necessarily MMOs). The other issue is that you're losing the hard-won abilities that your higher level character fought for.

City of Heroes had pretty much the same thing with the Exemplar system, and it never seemed to be that popular, except to help friends out.

I do agree though that the last few levels before cap tend to be something you rush through - your character changes relatively little, and so the fun of new abilities and gear over time is at a minimum.

Let's look at it from a WoW perspective. There's a number of zones within a specific level range, and each zone lasts roughly 5 levels in the post-cata era. So you're effectively missing out on a lot of additional content, and you're not really going to go back because it's not rewarding. Hell, take a look at the 1-84 zones in WoW....ghost town, that's a ton of wasted space.

In the GW2 model, with the exception of maybe the first 5 levels (those seemed to go by really quick), the leveling curve is flat. Which means 5-6 will take you as long as 79-80. The difference is that instead of outleveling previous zones, you could go and visit each one you wanted to, regardless of your level, and still find some rewarding content because you are de-leveled to the zone you're in. If it's content you've never done, it's not old content (for you). You are always being rewarded appropriately for your efforts.

The GW2 model has more freedom in the effect that once you reach certain levels, you can go wherever the hell you want to keep leveling, as long as the zone isn't a higher level than you. You can move onto a new zone, or stay where you want, or go back and visit another starting zone.

Sure, we haven't really seen how well it works out, but in theory, the system is miles ahead of the competition.

I think from a convenience standpoint that will be fantastic. There's nothing more frustrating than being level 58, for example, and only having two widely-separated zones you can XP in. So that's a big win.

I still think it comes with a cost, however. To extend the wow example, it would feel...weird...for my level 84 to travel to Westfall (lvl 12 zone) and have the mobs present any sort of a fight. If after adding 70+ levels of power, the mobs are still able to hurt me, then the progression of my character feels trivialized. Ironically, this sort of auto-scaling was commonly cited as a problem in Oblivion reviews:

"Part of the problem with Oblivion is that all encounters scale to the level range of the player, so you are never getting stronger than your opponents. In fact, leveling up in Oblivion is anti-climactic because of this auto-scaling. It robs the player of the sense of satisfaction that comes from beating old enemies"

"Half the fun of an RPG to me is leveling up, coming across a beastie that you previously avoided with dread, and taking him on. A feeling that with a lot of hard work, doing side quests and gaining experience that you've finally got what it takes to kill said beastie. Or the feeling that you've just stumbled into something that is way out of your league. Where's the fun if it takes the same effort to kill a wolf as it does a shadowbeast, regardless what level you are?"

As you say, we'll have to see how it works out in practice, as it's not *complete* auto-scaling. I do see upsides, but also downsides.