Originally posted by Johnnymmo Garvon3 u havent played tsw have you? Tsw is no wow clone. Gw2 is more of a wow clone.
I have played it, actually.
People spout the same thing about LotRO, AoC, Rift, or whatever their favorite MMO is. "But it's sooOOOOooOOOOo different from WoW! WoW doesn't have rifts!"
TSW isn't a WoW clone. It doesn't even make any sense. Just because they're both themepark games does not mean one is a clone of the other.
Some of you seem to think every themepark game is a WoW clone.
That's because they essentially are. Themepark is just a politically correct term for WoW clone.
Under the modern day classifications, DAoC and EQ would fall into themepark, yet they were almost nothing alike.
Meanwhile, LotRO and WoW and Rift all fall into the themepark category and are almost carbon copies of one another with 1-2 things slightly tweaked.
TSW borrows HEAVILY from WoW in almost all its features except a handful of its scripted quests. And even the quest SYSTEM is exactly like WoW's, it's just the quests themselves are written a little differently.
But no, go on, tell me how incredibly different all the themepark games are.
Meanwhile "sandbox games" like UO, SWG, and Eve, are absolutely NOTHING alike. Just because a game is in the same classification (even a classification as BS and false as themepark) doesn't mean that gives them an excuse to be unoriginal.
Well, since the closest thing GW2 has to "quests" is the personal story, based on what I've seen, GW2 personal story > TSW quests hands down.
TSW does have the top notch for voice acting and cinematics (better than TOR IMO) but yeah I think the actual game play portions of GW2 personal story > game play portions of TSW quests.
So, those millions of "kill x, fecth y, escort z" aren't quests?
As i've said, the presentation is aweome adn why i like DE, but i haven't done of them that had some mechanics or goals or anything that i haven't seen before.
Presentation is everything.
Don't have to go back to quest givers, don't have to pick them up, NEVER need to worry about if party members or friends are on the same step, no competition for tagging mobs/resources, no restrictions on group composition, no trinity roles required etc. etc.
Really changes everything.
Though the presentation for TSW is nice, great VO nice atmosphere and some interesting ideas, it just can't compete with that.
GW2 has quests. Instead of players initiating the script all they did was automate the script, put some true or false statements in, and called them dynamic events.
My industry calls it rebranding. They are still selling the same thing but it looks different, or we hope the buying public thinks so.
All mmos are based off of core mechanics that are reskinned and presented in different ways.
No matter how many actors you get, Batman fighting the Joker is still going to be, Batman fighting the Joker.
If you can look past this fact then you will find your fun and enjoyment. If you cannot, then unfortunately nothing will ever live up to that first kick at the can.
That's because they essentially are. Themepark is just a politically correct term for WoW clone.
Under the modern day classifications, DAoC and EQ would fall into themepark, yet they were almost nothing alike.
Meanwhile, LotRO and WoW and Rift all fall into the themepark category and are almost carbon copies of one another with 1-2 things slightly tweaked.
TSW borrows HEAVILY from WoW in almost all its features except a handful of its scripted quests. And even the quest SYSTEM is exactly like WoW's, it's just the quests themselves are written a little differently.
But no, go on, tell me how incredibly different all the themepark games are.
Meanwhile "sandbox games" like UO, SWG, and Eve, are absolutely NOTHING alike. Just because a game is in the same classification (even a classification as BS and false as themepark) doesn't mean that gives them an excuse to be unoriginal.
No it doesn't man. Did you even play the game? The biggest features it has that were "borrowed from WoW" are scripted dungeons and quest markers/ designators. Which WoW borrowed from other games itself so it is rather moot.
The crafting isn't the same.
Progression isn't the same.
Faction design isn't the same.
Itemization isn't the same.
You could go on and on. Do they have some similar features? Yes...of course. They're both themeparks. Again, that does not make one a clone of another.
Hate the game all you want. No game is going to please everyone but this whole WoW clone bash is really getting silly at this point with the games it is being used to slight.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Don't have to go back to quest givers, don't have to pick them up, NEVER need to worry about if party members or friends are on the same step, no competition for tagging mobs/resources, no restrictions on group composition, no trinity roles required etc. etc.
Really changes everything.
Though the presentation for TSW is nice, great VO nice atmosphere and some interesting ideas, it just can't compete with that.
Still too closely resembles the EQ/WoW model.
You have the right to your opinion BadSpock. You view that way, i view different. Like i said, to me, the presentation, the lack of npc giver, etc is why i like Events, but in the end, the goal are still the same as every other mmo. Presentation is defenatly not everything. In fact TSW as presentation too, but in a different way. However, many of it's missions have riddle elements conncted to them to make them more interesting, and that doesn't include investigation missions. Also, as i've said, it doesn't count for all quests, i know, but it would be cool.
Both systems are different in their own way, but GW2 defenatly as quests and beyond the presentation, it resembles the EQ/WOW model in every single way. "Kill x,Fecth Y, Escort Z"
GW2 has quests. Instead of players initiating the script all they did was automate the script, put some true or false statements in, and called them dynamic events.
My industry calls it rebranding. They are still selling the same thing but it looks different, or we hope the buying public thinks so.
All mmos are based off of core mechanics that are reskinned and presented in different ways.
No matter how many actors you get, Batman fighting the Joker is still going to be, Batman fighting the Joker.
If you can look past this fact then you will find your fun and enjoyment. If you cannot, then unfortunately nothing will ever live up to that first kick at the can.
it's a bit more than just what you described. The NPCs are not static, like in other games. They have routines. They walk around, talk to each other and perform differently based on the outcome of the DE. You can also follow the NPCs and see that DE doesn't just begin randomly, it starts with a certain trigger, either from a PC or an NPC.
But yea, they are essentially quests. When you boil it down, every game has you performing quests or missions. So are they all the same? No, it's the presentation that's important. TSW follows a more traditional presentation when it comes to quests. GW2 is trying something a bit different. TSW does have investigation quests, which are cool, but there's like 10 of them through out the whole game, while the rest are your basic kill and deliver quests.
That's because they essentially are. Themepark is just a politically correct term for WoW clone.
Under the modern day classifications, DAoC and EQ would fall into themepark, yet they were almost nothing alike.
Meanwhile, LotRO and WoW and Rift all fall into the themepark category and are almost carbon copies of one another with 1-2 things slightly tweaked.
TSW borrows HEAVILY from WoW in almost all its features except a handful of its scripted quests. And even the quest SYSTEM is exactly like WoW's, it's just the quests themselves are written a little differently.
But no, go on, tell me how incredibly different all the themepark games are.
Meanwhile "sandbox games" like UO, SWG, and Eve, are absolutely NOTHING alike. Just because a game is in the same classification (even a classification as BS and false as themepark) doesn't mean that gives them an excuse to be unoriginal.
You could go on and on. Do they have some similar features? Yes...of course. They're both themeparks. Again, that does not make one a clone of another.
Hooh boy... then tell me, how come games in the "sandbox" classification (many of which aren't even sandbox games, I've heard people call DAoC a sandbox, wtf?) are so totally different from one another? How come old "themepark" games are almost nothing alike?
Is it because they aren't actually themeparks? What are they?
Or is themepark just the blanket term for MMOs that get 90% of their features and design from WoW, and add in their own brand of spice to try to pass it off as something different?
Being a "themepark" doesn't give you a free pass to recycle the majority of your features.
If you say "no" you haven't done an investigation quest, and had to pick out small details and actually figure something out, instead of "5 pigs... located over there? got it. I'll go kill those 5 pigs."
Sadly, they're not ALL investigation quests. If they were....now THAT would be something.
Can't say I feel the same. They're fun in small doses but no thanks on just having those. Fuck that shit.
Well that's the problem with this game. It's almost entirely linear/solo oriented. Which means, the entire game rests on the back of the questing system. Which means, you need LOTS of quests, and they need to be padded to keep people subscribed longer. Which means... a lot of useless fetch quests. Now, if they had made the game social and open world like a proper MMO, and only had a handful of quests, and made them all really good, then maybe you could claim this game has the best quest system.
A lot of old MMO quests had you solving puzzles, writing things down, engaging in actual typed dialogue with NPCs, and, since the games weren't 100% quest focused, did this without watering them all down and padding them out.
It's kind of sad that 10 years later, the game with the "best quest system" is still playing catch up to games made by 15 people in a basement in the 90s.
Gonna repost this and remind everyone that an MMO doesn't become "good" by pretending to be a singleplayer game, because that is a battle it will NEVER win. That is why SWTOR is tanking.
Can you give some examples of these "old MMO's" that had puzzle quests, and a few examples of those quests ?
Quests arrived with EQ1 iirc. Before quests were in MMO's, you had to grind mobs to advance. Quests are just a faster way of giving players XP, and sometimes (fairly rarely) they even have interesting stories attached as a bonus. GW2 has simply shifted the "faster XP delivery" to DE's instead of quests. Presumably, there's still lore and story involved in the DE's.
When WOW launched, it was an EQ clone, but it was EQ on easy mode. It was also playable on almost any PC at the time. People loved it, and still do. Gone was the "forced grouping" from earlier MMO's, and that set the standard. All modern MMO's can be played in single-player mode all the way to level-cap with ease, and that includes TSW and GW2. Ranting about that will make no difference, the majority of players want optional grouping.
Who cares about questing when the skill animations are so poor and immersion breaking. I've never understood how MMOs can get released without smooth and responsive combat (SWTOR) or solid animations (TSW and tons of other MMOs).
For now it is. Until GW2 hits next month. Then, due to the mechanics of the questing, it will be better, for me at least. I've come across far too many quests that bug out because tons of people have to click on everything they see, in TSW and it just ruins the experience completely. That and I find I just don't care about challenge in quests and find TSW quests very challenging and most of the time I just scour the internet for the answers just so I can progress. I'm more interested in deck building and getting SPs and APs then taking 2 or more hours to finish a quest.
Not saying they should change the questing for me, as I know many folk like that type of challenge, heck my Dad is that type of puzzle solver, I just never was and never saw the appeal. Hence, my love for GW2 and it's more free form fluid questing with no worry about not getting drops or not getting credit for kills since everyone who taps the mob or is in the area gets credit and we all get our own loot table. Genius.
Still though, I'm glad these 2 games ARE changing the quest mechanic in this genre for the better. Makes WoW hub questing, which I used to love, look archaic and amateur.
Originally posted by heartless. GW2 is trying something a bit different.
BS. If you can call TSW missions standard, then GW2 questing is all PQs from Warhammer. Because they really are. The only difference is that's all you do for PvE with the exception of Rift Zone events. It's a nice set up, but it's not different. Especially if you're going to dismiss TSW set up. Lets apply the same standard to both games shall we. Yes we shall.
Who cares about questing when the skill animations are so poor and immersion breaking. I've never understood how MMOs can get released without smooth and responsive combat (SWTOR) or solid animations (TSW and tons of other MMOs).
Not everybody cares about combat. Well, i do actually, but i don't go into mmos expecting good combat system when FPS, Action, fighting, racing, etc games exist.
Who cares about questing when the skill animations are so poor and immersion breaking.
Many disagree with you about the severity of how poor TSW animations are. They've improved greatly over the last month and are still working on it. I find TSW anything, but immersion breaking.
If you say "no" you haven't done an investigation quest, and had to pick out small details and actually figure something out, instead of "5 pigs... located over there? got it. I'll go kill those 5 pigs."
Sadly, they're not ALL investigation quests. If they were....now THAT would be something.
Can't say I feel the same. They're fun in small doses but no thanks on just having those. Fuck that shit.
Well that's the problem with this game. It's almost entirely linear/solo oriented. Which means, the entire game rests on the back of the questing system. Which means, you need LOTS of quests, and they need to be padded to keep people subscribed longer. Which means... a lot of useless fetch quests. Now, if they had made the game social and open world like a proper MMO, and only had a handful of quests, and made them all really good, then maybe you could claim this game has the best quest system.
A lot of old MMO quests had you solving puzzles, writing things down, engaging in actual typed dialogue with NPCs, and, since the games weren't 100% quest focused, did this without watering them all down and padding them out.
It's kind of sad that 10 years later, the game with the "best quest system" is still playing catch up to games made by 15 people in a basement in the 90s.
Gonna repost this and remind everyone that an MMO doesn't become "good" by pretending to be a singleplayer game, because that is a battle it will NEVER win. That is why SWTOR is tanking.
Can you give some examples of these "old MMO's" that had puzzle quests, and a few examples of those quests ?
DAoC. And quests were in MMOs before EQ, such as in UO.
And DAoC had about 5-6 different ways of leveling up.
Modern MMOs have one. Quests. And given the choice, I'd rather grind mobs and do nothing else, than do quests. Because at least that encouraged you to play with others and gave you the freedom to go wherever you wanted.
Well I feel gw2 and tsw's quests both suit the concepts of the games. I find it amusing people are against the zerg aka massive amount of players tackling events, isn't that what the MM in MMO stands for. Now tsw I often find myself comparing to rsident evil and not just for its concept and art style. The questing has that same intriguing quality that can captivate you for hours on end. Honestly for me these are the two games I will be playing and find them strong where the other is weak and perfect complements for eachother.
Guys, please stop comparing TSW with GW2. It is just the same thing in every thread I check in TSW/ GW2 forums. The both games are great and do focus on different things. GW2 has changed the mmo-rules and turned its world to fit the the real mmorpg gaming. On the other hand, Funcom has done a really great job presenting a really great game with many new things that makes the secret world, easily, of the best mmorpgs out there!
To the topic. When it comes to questing and then yeah, TSW has done perefctly. Well, quests like '' kill x number from z monster in y zone '' are there, but the questing is still good.
PS. GW2 introduce questing in a better way, making it questing-system the best to date. However, I can´t really call it questing, but exploring the world. I have already mentioned it, GW2 is much more MMORPG than any other game in the market. TSW is different and focus on other points in the game than MMORPG gaming.
So, you say to not compare the 2 games beause they're both good but difference (i completly agree), but then you go on to say GW2's questing is better and even beyond traditional mechanics? That it's more mmorpg than any. other. game? Really?
Well, you have the right to your opinion, not problem righ there, but i'd really like to know how GW2 "changed the mmo.rules"
Sorry there for the issue .. though I didn´t really mean comparing these games becasue I am against it. I did make that PS just as an answer to many people who were talking about '' is there really any better questing '', just a fast PC since we talk about questing. Nothing more.
To ur questions: First of all, I did say that GW2 questing system is great but also menionted that I don´t really call it questing, so TSW is so far the best, in my opinion. Now to the point of ur question '' what did GW2 do nd why is it more mmorpg than any other game ?! ''
I will just give you a simple answer, which is my own opinion as a player and a former worker in the mmo-industery. When MMORPGs were first presented .. the rules of this kind of gaming were different. The games were not based on questing- experince and later end-game as the most mmorpgs do nowadays. There weren´t any gear-focus or any high focus on lvling. The thing is that there wasn´t focus at all !! It is not the gaming company which should make the focus but you. This was the simple '' rule '' of the mmo-gaming, the rule that made MMOs. Simply '' there is no rule '' !! Many games tried that but no game really did a great job nd years flew fastly as usual and time changed the ideas of the mmo-gaming, especially when WoW came nd made the revolution that changed the MMO world. There was much MMORPG-gaming in WoW, but not enough and with years other games began to take this new path which which made the original pic of MMOs fade slowly. This is why GW2 was presented, as the game which will change the '' wrong '' in MMORPGs, the game which will make the rules that were imagined for the first time years ago, be a reality. GW2 did simply make Tyria ( the game world ) live ! They filled the world with life and opened it to the players. A world, that u can enjoy in ur own way. PvP ndPve. U have the right to save the village that is burning or just leave it behind and go to the main road where there are some bandits killing the people of tyria. U have the choice to help these ppl and take this road to see what´s up there in the high mountins, or u can just ignore the whole thing, because of fear, and run away instead to help a woman taking a picnik from a hungry bear. Youc can always help that man, yeah that one, who is starving, by fixing some food, or just let him die, being forced to handle his poor children who are making chaos because of thier anger and hunger. It is ur choice, the world is open for u and it is u who will decide what will happen. This is why GW2 is more MMORPG than any other game up to date and this is axactly why hundreds of reviewing sites/newspapers have reviewed the betas so far, kinda with too possitive comments that they hardly use otherwise.
I don´t want to talk about the mechanics they changed, or what thecnology they used to imporve all that, or what they did to not end up taking the other patch, most mmos are taking. I am just giving here a simple '' answer '' for ur question. It is my own opinion, and an opinion which is based on betas. It can be changed of course. I am not saying that GW2 is, but '' can '' be, because it is in the right position right now. Anyway, if they can do it right nd then GW2 can be the first step in the new path, a path that will make the MMORPGs more mmo nd enjoyable of course. It is a path that everyone shoudl await. The path, where we gamers, despite our different opinions, will get a bunch of games that are really amazing.
PS. Sorry for the off-topic guys, just ignore this comment. This is just an answer for the guy above .. nd btw, I am one of the people following TSW with every step and of course, one of the player-base. I am a person that have tried and worked in the mmo-industry, a person who belive that every game is worth a try, nd TSW is easily one of my favos
How come old "themepark" games are almost nothing alike?
Is it because they aren't actually themeparks? What are they?
Or is themepark just the blanket term for MMOs that get 90% of their features and design from WoW, and add in their own brand of spice to try to pass it off as something different?
Being a "themepark" doesn't give you a free pass to recycle the majority of your features.
Because they do have similarities. They simply aren't clones of each other and found ways to make their game stand out as being unique and offering something different. Not sure why you can see this with the older games yet seem convinced every modern mmo that follows the same basic design is simply a clone of WoW.
Like I said hate the game all you want. Lot of things one could balk about this game that I could agree with or at the very least respect. But the whole WoW clone thing? With this game? You guys will call any game that it appears because you know it will rile people up.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you say "no" you haven't done an investigation quest, and had to pick out small details and actually figure something out, instead of "5 pigs... located over there? got it. I'll go kill those 5 pigs."
Sadly, they're not ALL investigation quests. If they were....now THAT would be something.
Can't say I feel the same. They're fun in small doses but no thanks on just having those. Fuck that shit.
Well that's the problem with this game. It's almost entirely linear/solo oriented. Which means, the entire game rests on the back of the questing system. Which means, you need LOTS of quests, and they need to be padded to keep people subscribed longer. Which means... a lot of useless fetch quests. Now, if they had made the game social and open world like a proper MMO, and only had a handful of quests, and made them all really good, then maybe you could claim this game has the best quest system.
A lot of old MMO quests had you solving puzzles, writing things down, engaging in actual typed dialogue with NPCs, and, since the games weren't 100% quest focused, did this without watering them all down and padding them out.
It's kind of sad that 10 years later, the game with the "best quest system" is still playing catch up to games made by 15 people in a basement in the 90s.
Gonna repost this and remind everyone that an MMO doesn't become "good" by pretending to be a singleplayer game, because that is a battle it will NEVER win. That is why SWTOR is tanking.
Can you give some examples of these "old MMO's" that had puzzle quests, and a few examples of those quests ?
Quests arrived with EQ1 iirc. Before quests were in MMO's, you had to grind mobs to advance. Quests are just a faster way of giving players XP, and sometimes (fairly rarely) they even have interesting stories attached as a bonus. GW2 has simply shifted the "faster XP delivery" to DE's instead of quests. Presumably, there's still lore and story involved in the DE's.
When WOW launched, it was an EQ clone, but it was EQ on easy mode. It was also playable on almost any PC at the time. People loved it, and still do. Gone was the "forced grouping" from earlier MMO's, and that set the standard. All modern MMO's can be played in single-player mode all the way to level-cap with ease, and that includes TSW and GW2. Ranting about that will make no difference, the majority of players want optional grouping.
Quests weren't the best way to level up in EQ. Most people just stuck to their epic weapon quest line, shawl quest line, and other quests that gave the real good items. Which weren't many, most of the good items were mob drops at spots in a dungeon or area. Best way to xp in EQ......
Train to Karnors entrance....left......../watch everyone duck for cover.
WoW was quest quest quest and run instances.
EQ was camp boss mob and grind xp by killing mobs.
I found EQ and WoW to be very different gaming experiences for me for the most part.
I liked it in the betas I did, and enjoy the story telling of it all. But none of the quests quite matched the more random / world exploring feel of say... Helping my capped Wizard friend in EverQuest 1 hunt down the components to create the Ice Comet spell.
TSW's story telling on rails system is quite nice comapred to SWTOR's, but it's not proper questing in my opinion.
Who cares about questing when the skill animations are so poor and immersion breaking. I've never understood how MMOs can get released without smooth and responsive combat (SWTOR) or solid animations (TSW and tons of other MMOs).
Because those items really aren't game breakers for many of us, we care more about the overall game play and overlook those items which upset you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
That's because they essentially are. Themepark is just a politically correct term for WoW clone.
Under the modern day classifications, DAoC and EQ would fall into themepark, yet they were almost nothing alike.
Meanwhile, LotRO and WoW and Rift all fall into the themepark category and are almost carbon copies of one another with 1-2 things slightly tweaked.
TSW borrows HEAVILY from WoW in almost all its features except a handful of its scripted quests. And even the quest SYSTEM is exactly like WoW's, it's just the quests themselves are written a little differently.
But no, go on, tell me how incredibly different all the themepark games are.
Meanwhile "sandbox games" like UO, SWG, and Eve, are absolutely NOTHING alike. Just because a game is in the same classification (even a classification as BS and false as themepark) doesn't mean that gives them an excuse to be unoriginal.
Presentation is everything.
Don't have to go back to quest givers, don't have to pick them up, NEVER need to worry about if party members or friends are on the same step, no competition for tagging mobs/resources, no restrictions on group composition, no trinity roles required etc. etc.
Really changes everything.
Though the presentation for TSW is nice, great VO nice atmosphere and some interesting ideas, it just can't compete with that.
Still too closely resembles the EQ/WoW model.
GW2 has quests. Instead of players initiating the script all they did was automate the script, put some true or false statements in, and called them dynamic events.
My industry calls it rebranding. They are still selling the same thing but it looks different, or we hope the buying public thinks so.
All mmos are based off of core mechanics that are reskinned and presented in different ways.
No matter how many actors you get, Batman fighting the Joker is still going to be, Batman fighting the Joker.
If you can look past this fact then you will find your fun and enjoyment. If you cannot, then unfortunately nothing will ever live up to that first kick at the can.
Fixed that up a bit for you.
Isn't it funny that WoW calls instancing "phasing" like its something new that no one has ever done?
No it doesn't man. Did you even play the game? The biggest features it has that were "borrowed from WoW" are scripted dungeons and quest markers/ designators. Which WoW borrowed from other games itself so it is rather moot.
The crafting isn't the same.
Progression isn't the same.
Faction design isn't the same.
Itemization isn't the same.
You could go on and on. Do they have some similar features? Yes...of course. They're both themeparks. Again, that does not make one a clone of another.
Hate the game all you want. No game is going to please everyone but this whole WoW clone bash is really getting silly at this point with the games it is being used to slight.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
You have the right to your opinion BadSpock. You view that way, i view different. Like i said, to me, the presentation, the lack of npc giver, etc is why i like Events, but in the end, the goal are still the same as every other mmo. Presentation is defenatly not everything. In fact TSW as presentation too, but in a different way. However, many of it's missions have riddle elements conncted to them to make them more interesting, and that doesn't include investigation missions. Also, as i've said, it doesn't count for all quests, i know, but it would be cool.
Both systems are different in their own way, but GW2 defenatly as quests and beyond the presentation, it resembles the EQ/WOW model in every single way. "Kill x,Fecth Y, Escort Z"
it's a bit more than just what you described. The NPCs are not static, like in other games. They have routines. They walk around, talk to each other and perform differently based on the outcome of the DE. You can also follow the NPCs and see that DE doesn't just begin randomly, it starts with a certain trigger, either from a PC or an NPC.
But yea, they are essentially quests. When you boil it down, every game has you performing quests or missions. So are they all the same? No, it's the presentation that's important. TSW follows a more traditional presentation when it comes to quests. GW2 is trying something a bit different. TSW does have investigation quests, which are cool, but there's like 10 of them through out the whole game, while the rest are your basic kill and deliver quests.
Hooh boy... then tell me, how come games in the "sandbox" classification (many of which aren't even sandbox games, I've heard people call DAoC a sandbox, wtf?) are so totally different from one another? How come old "themepark" games are almost nothing alike?
Is it because they aren't actually themeparks? What are they?
Or is themepark just the blanket term for MMOs that get 90% of their features and design from WoW, and add in their own brand of spice to try to pass it off as something different?
Being a "themepark" doesn't give you a free pass to recycle the majority of your features.
Can you give some examples of these "old MMO's" that had puzzle quests, and a few examples of those quests ?
Quests arrived with EQ1 iirc. Before quests were in MMO's, you had to grind mobs to advance. Quests are just a faster way of giving players XP, and sometimes (fairly rarely) they even have interesting stories attached as a bonus. GW2 has simply shifted the "faster XP delivery" to DE's instead of quests. Presumably, there's still lore and story involved in the DE's.
When WOW launched, it was an EQ clone, but it was EQ on easy mode. It was also playable on almost any PC at the time. People loved it, and still do. Gone was the "forced grouping" from earlier MMO's, and that set the standard. All modern MMO's can be played in single-player mode all the way to level-cap with ease, and that includes TSW and GW2. Ranting about that will make no difference, the majority of players want optional grouping.
Any MMO that has it's main feature something that's singleplayer doesn't deserve the title of best MMO.
Who cares about questing when the skill animations are so poor and immersion breaking. I've never understood how MMOs can get released without smooth and responsive combat (SWTOR) or solid animations (TSW and tons of other MMOs).
For now it is. Until GW2 hits next month. Then, due to the mechanics of the questing, it will be better, for me at least. I've come across far too many quests that bug out because tons of people have to click on everything they see, in TSW and it just ruins the experience completely. That and I find I just don't care about challenge in quests and find TSW quests very challenging and most of the time I just scour the internet for the answers just so I can progress. I'm more interested in deck building and getting SPs and APs then taking 2 or more hours to finish a quest.
Not saying they should change the questing for me, as I know many folk like that type of challenge, heck my Dad is that type of puzzle solver, I just never was and never saw the appeal. Hence, my love for GW2 and it's more free form fluid questing with no worry about not getting drops or not getting credit for kills since everyone who taps the mob or is in the area gets credit and we all get our own loot table. Genius.
Still though, I'm glad these 2 games ARE changing the quest mechanic in this genre for the better. Makes WoW hub questing, which I used to love, look archaic and amateur.
BS. If you can call TSW missions standard, then GW2 questing is all PQs from Warhammer. Because they really are. The only difference is that's all you do for PvE with the exception of Rift Zone events. It's a nice set up, but it's not different. Especially if you're going to dismiss TSW set up. Lets apply the same standard to both games shall we. Yes we shall.
Not everybody cares about combat. Well, i do actually, but i don't go into mmos expecting good combat system when FPS, Action, fighting, racing, etc games exist.
Many disagree with you about the severity of how poor TSW animations are. They've improved greatly over the last month and are still working on it. I find TSW anything, but immersion breaking.
DAoC. And quests were in MMOs before EQ, such as in UO.
And DAoC had about 5-6 different ways of leveling up.
Modern MMOs have one. Quests. And given the choice, I'd rather grind mobs and do nothing else, than do quests. Because at least that encouraged you to play with others and gave you the freedom to go wherever you wanted.
I really want to play TSW but I can't afford the game and/or my computer is too old to run it.
Is this the point where I start nitpicking/bashing it for no apparent reason?
Haha, this. You just won the thread.
/thread
Well I feel gw2 and tsw's quests both suit the concepts of the games. I find it amusing people are against the zerg aka massive amount of players tackling events, isn't that what the MM in MMO stands for. Now tsw I often find myself comparing to rsident evil and not just for its concept and art style. The questing has that same intriguing quality that can captivate you for hours on end. Honestly for me these are the two games I will be playing and find them strong where the other is weak and perfect complements for eachother.
Sorry there for the issue .. though I didn´t really mean comparing these games becasue I am against it. I did make that PS just as an answer to many people who were talking about '' is there really any better questing '', just a fast PC since we talk about questing. Nothing more.
To ur questions: First of all, I did say that GW2 questing system is great but also menionted that I don´t really call it questing, so TSW is so far the best, in my opinion. Now to the point of ur question '' what did GW2 do nd why is it more mmorpg than any other game ?! ''
I will just give you a simple answer, which is my own opinion as a player and a former worker in the mmo-industery. When MMORPGs were first presented .. the rules of this kind of gaming were different. The games were not based on questing- experince and later end-game as the most mmorpgs do nowadays. There weren´t any gear-focus or any high focus on lvling. The thing is that there wasn´t focus at all !! It is not the gaming company which should make the focus but you. This was the simple '' rule '' of the mmo-gaming, the rule that made MMOs. Simply '' there is no rule '' !! Many games tried that but no game really did a great job nd years flew fastly as usual and time changed the ideas of the mmo-gaming, especially when WoW came nd made the revolution that changed the MMO world. There was much MMORPG-gaming in WoW, but not enough and with years other games began to take this new path which which made the original pic of MMOs fade slowly. This is why GW2 was presented, as the game which will change the '' wrong '' in MMORPGs, the game which will make the rules that were imagined for the first time years ago, be a reality. GW2 did simply make Tyria ( the game world ) live ! They filled the world with life and opened it to the players. A world, that u can enjoy in ur own way. PvP ndPve. U have the right to save the village that is burning or just leave it behind and go to the main road where there are some bandits killing the people of tyria. U have the choice to help these ppl and take this road to see what´s up there in the high mountins, or u can just ignore the whole thing, because of fear, and run away instead to help a woman taking a picnik from a hungry bear. Youc can always help that man, yeah that one, who is starving, by fixing some food, or just let him die, being forced to handle his poor children who are making chaos because of thier anger and hunger. It is ur choice, the world is open for u and it is u who will decide what will happen. This is why GW2 is more MMORPG than any other game up to date and this is axactly why hundreds of reviewing sites/newspapers have reviewed the betas so far, kinda with too possitive comments that they hardly use otherwise.
I don´t want to talk about the mechanics they changed, or what thecnology they used to imporve all that, or what they did to not end up taking the other patch, most mmos are taking. I am just giving here a simple '' answer '' for ur question. It is my own opinion, and an opinion which is based on betas. It can be changed of course. I am not saying that GW2 is, but '' can '' be, because it is in the right position right now. Anyway, if they can do it right nd then GW2 can be the first step in the new path, a path that will make the MMORPGs more mmo nd enjoyable of course. It is a path that everyone shoudl await. The path, where we gamers, despite our different opinions, will get a bunch of games that are really amazing.
PS. Sorry for the off-topic guys, just ignore this comment. This is just an answer for the guy above
.. nd btw, I am one of the people following TSW with every step and of course, one of the player-base. I am a person that have tried and worked in the mmo-industry, a person who belive that every game is worth a try, nd TSW is easily one of my favos
Because they do have similarities. They simply aren't clones of each other and found ways to make their game stand out as being unique and offering something different. Not sure why you can see this with the older games yet seem convinced every modern mmo that follows the same basic design is simply a clone of WoW.
Like I said hate the game all you want. Lot of things one could balk about this game that I could agree with or at the very least respect. But the whole WoW clone thing? With this game? You guys will call any game that it appears because you know it will rile people up.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I went with Yes, at least concerning titles that have been released to date. Haven't tried GW2 but come Aug 28th perhaps I'll find out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Quests weren't the best way to level up in EQ. Most people just stuck to their epic weapon quest line, shawl quest line, and other quests that gave the real good items. Which weren't many, most of the good items were mob drops at spots in a dungeon or area. Best way to xp in EQ......
Train to Karnors entrance....left......../watch everyone duck for cover.
WoW was quest quest quest and run instances.
EQ was camp boss mob and grind xp by killing mobs.
I found EQ and WoW to be very different gaming experiences for me for the most part.
I voted no.
I liked it in the betas I did, and enjoy the story telling of it all. But none of the quests quite matched the more random / world exploring feel of say... Helping my capped Wizard friend in EverQuest 1 hunt down the components to create the Ice Comet spell.
TSW's story telling on rails system is quite nice comapred to SWTOR's, but it's not proper questing in my opinion.
a yo ho ho
Because those items really aren't game breakers for many of us, we care more about the overall game play and overlook those items which upset you.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon